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jadgee

Collection and Germination of Scilla madeirensis seeds

jadgee
14 years ago

My Scilla madeirensis bulbs flowered well this year and I would like to harvest the seeds to produce new plants/bulbs.

The bulbs are in my greenhouse for the winter with the leaves slowly drying and the seeds still on the flower stalks.

I have been waiting for and expecting the seed "pods" to dry and shrivel so I can collect the seeds. However, the pods remain a plump, healthy green colour and I am wondering if this is the how they would remain in their native habitat, possibly waiting for whatever "animal" normally eats them as their means of dispersal.

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I would appreciate advice on the best means to harvest and germinate the seeds.

I have removed one green pod and inside there was a single black seed (approx 5mm diam) with a hard coat.

Should I remove the seeds from the other pods now while still green?

Do the seeds need to be stored over-winter ready for sowing next spring?

Do the seed need a "cold spell" to help with germination? (I presume in Madeira they would not encounter freezing conditions)

Should the seed coats be "chipped" before sowing to help germination?

What conditions are suitable for germination?

Any advice would be welcome as I really enjoy these bulbs when in flower and would like to propagate more.

Comments (29)

  • carol23_gw
    14 years ago

    From what I read on line, Madeira has a mild sub-tropical climate. The bulbs would not be exposed to any frost or freezing or cold conditions.

    There can be at times a wind from the Sahara ( The Leste) that brings a red dust and causes temps to soar to 104F in summer, but only for a few days.

    If the seeds are black, they should be ripe. Why not sow a few fresh seeds now? They may germinate right away.

    From the chart linked below, it appears the temps range from about 50 - 80 year round.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Madeira climate

  • jadgee
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    Thanks for your reply carol23, and the link to Madeira climate. I shall do as you suggest and sow some of the fresh seeds now with a little bottom heat, wait to see what happens and keep a few in reserve until next spring. As you indicated, it's unlikely they encounter any freezing conditions in Madeira.
    It's a good job you suggested immediate sowing for some of the seeds as when I went into the greenhouse today to collect some there must be only 20% of those originally on the flower stalk. The field mice have obviously decided they are ripe enough to eat/store!
    Thanks again for your advice.

  • pellie_grower
    13 years ago

    Jadgee, how did you get on with collecting, sowing and growing your seeds?

    Mark
    N Ireland

  • rredbbeard
    8 years ago

    I'm writing to resurrect this thread, if anyone still follows it? I obtained several bulbs of this back in March, and of 5 bulbs, 4 went into active growth within 6 weeks, while 1 remained dormant, potted in with the rest.

    I've had lots of good, strong foliage, but no flowers. I plan to give these a fertilizer with a bit more phosphorus over the next 3 weeks, then let them go dormant for 4-6 weeks.

    If anyone has personal experience in growing these, I'd very much appreciate advice on their culture. Am I following the right growth cycle here?

    If I have done this right, there should be flowers in late fall?

    Thanks,

    Rick in CT

  • jadgee
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Apologies to Mark (N.Ireland) for not answering your question from November 2010 “how did you get on with collecting, sowing and growing your seeds? “ at that time.

    It is a bit late to reply now but I
    hope you may still see this reply and are still interested.

    I have had success in germinating seeds
    from the flowers on my “mature” Scilla Madeirensis bulbs.

    These are a couple of photos of plants
    grown from seeds collected from my flowers.




    In response to Rick in CT:

    Most of my “mature” bulbs were
    obtained over several years from nurseries in Madeira when I visit
    the island for holidays.

    These bulbs are grown in terracotta
    pots and flower most years in my garden in UK (40 miles west of
    London).

    The bulbs will not tolerate
    freezing/low temperatures so I keep them in my greenhouse or
    conservatory above 8 Deg C during the winter months (Dec- April). The
    pots are kept dry during the winter and I start light watering as
    soon as the bulbs show signs of leaf tips appearing in the centre of
    the bulbs, usually from early August.
    I usually bring the pots out
    of the greenhouse from June but cover them if heavy rain is forecast
    as I do not want the bulbs soaking too early in the year as the roots
    can rot if the plants have not started active growth.
    The bulbs
    will then produce flowers from September onwards and can be watered
    and fed during this time.
    As outside temperatures drop during
    December the pots are brought into the protection of the greenhouse.

    As the flowers are ending I reduce the
    amount of water but sufficient to ensure the seed capsules/pods can
    swell and develop.


    Withholding water until September will
    delay the leaf and flower formation until October/November but then
    the outside temperatures may limit the number of days I can put the
    pots outside for pollination by insects. In these late flowering
    years when fewer insects are about I have successfully pollinated the
    flowers with a soft brush.


    During the early months of the year the
    pots are kept dry, the leaves gradually wither and the pods continue
    to develop on the flower stalk.

    I usually cut-off the flower stalk with
    pods from April/May and allow the pods to dry out further on the
    stalk.

    The leaves dry completely during May –
    July and can be pulled off easily late July ready to start the cycle
    again.


    The seeds can be removed from the pods
    from June onwards and sown immediately or kept for sowing the
    following year. Seed pods which have dried completely can be
    rehydrated by soaking in water for a couple of days when the black
    seeds will plump-up and be ready to sow.

    In answer to Rick in CT I hope the
    above notes are of some help in the growing cycle I use in England.

    My reaction to your description would
    be in future years to keep the bulbs dry and wait until the dormant
    bulbs show the first signs of leaf tips appearing before starting
    watering.

    I suspect the leaves on your bulbs may
    be soft/leggy rather than stiff/firm with being started into growth
    too early – although I note you describe “lots of good strong
    foliage”.

    This may affect the flower development
    and result in flower spikes with the florets widely spaced instead of
    close and compact.

    Just my opinion and I may be completely
    wrong!


    I would be interested in knowing where
    you managed to buy your 5 bulbs and what size/diameter they were and
    how expensive.

    These Scilla madeirensis bulbs have
    been hard to find for many years but I understand a US nursery is
    importing them from a grower in Isreal.


  • rredbbeard
    8 years ago

    Thank you for the great detail of your experience with these. I obviously have a lot to change in maintaining this species.

    Somewhere on line, I had seen misleading examples of several bulbs planted in a modest container, with great results, also forced out of their normal dormancy cycle.

    My big challenge will be separating the bulbs, which will involve some damage to the roots, so perhaps that task should wait until the end of the dormant period. In the mean time, moving that entire root bound mass to a larger pot is in order, disturbing it as little as possible.

    The mistakes weren't fatal, but probably no flowers this year. I'll update in a month or two.

    Thanks again!


    Rick in CT

  • rredbbeard
    8 years ago

    Jadgee--I'm quite doubtful that these cloned bulbs will produce seed on their own. Would you have any interest in swapping one of your more mature bulbs, when dormant, for something of mine that might interest you? If you will contact me via my regular email, I can describe some of what I might have for a trade--there's more than appears on my swap page.

    Thanks,

    Rick in CT

    RRedBBeard@yahoo.com

  • rredbbeard
    8 years ago

    My bulb started an inflo on Sept. 21, opening the first flower about 3 weeks later. When the first flowers opened, I started attempting pollination, using a cat whisker as the tool of choice, transferring pollen for several minutes, twice a day. Approximately 15 new flower opened each day, and I continued the routine for 3 days, placing the plant outdoors with the hope that insects would assist the process. The hand-pollinated flowers almost universally aborted, and I stopped pollinating as it seemed like an exercise in futility.

    Just 2 days ago I noticed that 3 pods had formed, which, if they can ripen, shows that the plants are at least somewhat self-fertile. Jadgee, do you think that insect pollination is that much more effective? I would be delighted to have pod development such as what you pictured. I'm wondering if pollen from another s.madeirensis line would have been more successful? Suggestions?

    The leaves develop in 2 phases. As the first leaves faded in late August, a second phase started at the same time that the inflo appeared. Judging from the top growth and solid root mass, a mature bulb requires a very large pot of at least 3 gallons. In retrospect, the 10" pot I used was completely inadequate.

    From your description, Jadgee, it appears the seeds will take ~4 months to ripen?

    Thanks,

    Rick in CT

  • jadgee
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Hi Rick, Thanks for the update on your
    Scilla madeirensis bulbs and the photos.

    I have found that if I can get my bulbs
    with inflorescences outside early enough (Aug – Sept) and the
    weather is good, insect pollination is much more likely to result in
    effective pollination.

    If I am at home I will also try to
    “double-up” by hand pollinating, trying to ensure I use pollen
    from different bulbs (presumably different clones as bulbs obtained
    various years) and I believe that this is also effective as sometimes
    bulbs which have not been outside because of the weather have set
    pods just from hand pollination.


    As one of your inflos has set some pods
    it suggests that they are self-fertile but I am unable to confirm
    this as I always cross-pollinate by hand and I presume the insects
    also visit different inflos as I put the pots close together when
    they are outside.

    I think that you are right that using
    different clones to pollinate yours would have resulted in more pods.


    I also found this year that the number
    and size of flower stems and number of individual florets on the
    inflorescences is affected by when the bulbs are started into growth
    and probably the “feeding” of the bulbs.

    I will send more information and some photos directly to your email address so as not to clutter the "houzz" system.

    Let me know if you receive the email.

    Regards,

    jadgee

  • rredbbeard
    8 years ago

    On a related subject, I have seen pictures of s.madeirensis in a very large pot, with a great number of inflos, presumably from offsets on the mother bulb. It's also possible that several bulbs were crowded into the same large pot to get that effect. Which situation do you think is more likely?

    --Rick

  • jadgee
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    I just sent an email to you and attached 2 photos of large S. mad bulbs I took at Kew Gardens. These are multiple bulbs from the same mother bulb. I also sent a couple of photos of my largest bulb which is also multiple bulbs from a single mother bulb. As bulbs mature they do produce "side bulbs" and over the years the clump grows, often with each bulb in the clump producing a flower spike.
    Did you receive the email with photos attached?

  • floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK
    8 years ago

    Any chance the rest of us could see these pictures, jadgee?

  • jadgee
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Hi floral_uk, The photos I sent to Rick are shown below.
    I also included the following comments and a link to a Kew blog:
    "The world famous gardens at Kew near
    London, England, have an impressive display of Scilla madeirensis in
    one of their greenhouses during November and December.

    The following link to a blog written in
    November 2010 by the Alpine and Rock Garden team, provides useful
    information on the growing regime used at Kew for these wonderful
    bulbs.

    http://www.kew.org/discover/blogs/flowering-now-giant-madeiran-squill".

    I would also add that there is currently a 4 year Scilla mad bulb listed on ebay.


    Repotting one of my larger Scilla mads - 1st Oct 2014

    After repotting 1st Oct 2014

    Flowering 18th Nov 2014


    Flowering 27th Aug 2015

    Kew Gardens Alpine House 19th Nov 2014


    Kew Gardens Alpine House 19th Nov 2014

    Regards, jadgee


  • maylingsmom
    8 years ago

    Are these the bulbs that are supposed to be purple?

  • jadgee
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Yes. Look at the link to the Kew blog which I included above.

  • maylingsmom
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I already knew the bulbs at Kew were purple. Aren't you growing them? In those pics your bulbs don't look as purple as Kew. Are yours as purple as Kew's are?

  • jadgee
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    The Kew bulbs look more purple because they take care to clean off all the old scales from the bulbs. This is important to them as their bulbs and flowers will be viewed by many visitors to the Alpine House at Kew. I presume they will be put on display anytime now.
    Under the old scales my bulbs are purple just that I don't spend too much time cleaning them up.
    You can see on the seedling bulb below grown from my seeds the nice purple surface when old scales are cleaned off.
    Do you grow Scilla madeirensis?



  • maylingsmom
    8 years ago

    No, but I am a member of Pacific Bulb Society and there are some members who grow them.

  • floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK
    8 years ago

    Thanks for the pictures, Jadgee. You have a great deal more knowledge and patience than me ;-)

  • rredbbeard
    6 years ago

    Hello Jadgee,

    I have a solitary seedlings of this, the sole progeny of last year's bloom. This seedling finally went dormant, and I'd like your advice on keeping it healthy through its dormancy. Should it be kept as dry as a mature bulb? Is it advisable to store it in potting mix?

    I've found that there are a few of the summer-dormant South African species that benefit from a tiny sip of water carefully applied during the warmest months. Is this oe of these species?

    Thanks,

    Rick

  • jadgee
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Hi Rick, Sorry for the delay in replying to your recent question about keeping Scilla mad seedlings healthy during dormancy. The days seem to go faster the older I get!

    I believe that even the larger bulbs do benefit from a small amount of water during their dormancy when kept in the soil/compost.

    As you mentioned, "there are a few summer dormant South African bulb species that benefit from a tiny sip of water carefully applied during the summer months" and I would put Scilla mads in this category.
    The small Scilla seedling bulbs also benefit from the same "sip of water" to avoid total dessication during dormancy, although sparingly to avoid rotting.

    I keep my seedlings in their free-draining compost so the small amount of water quickly drains away.

    I am away from home at the moment but I will send some photos of my Scilla mads (mature and seedling bulbs) tomorrow to illustrate current condition of them.


    Regards, Norman

  • jadgee
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Visited the Davies Alpine House at Kew Gardens, UK today. Two large pots of Scilla Madeirensis on display looking fabulous as always. (See photos below of Kew plants)
    The expert growers at Kew appear to have delayed bringing their Scilla mads into flower even later in 2017 as they are usually displayed in flower in November.
    My Scilla mads were disappointing in 2017 as I didn't refresh the compost and my watering regime was erratic. I will take extra care in 2018 to get the best out of these wonderful plants.




  • ninecrow
    6 years ago

    Oh BOY, I've Fallen In LOVE And I WANT!!!
    LOL
    Are These Sold Nowish Or In Autumn Jadgee?
    Well That's IF They Are To Be Fond At A Garden Centre....
    Thanks For Sharing Guys!

  • jadgee
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Scilla madeirensis bulbs are not readily available and unlikely to be found in UK garden centres. Specialist bulb suppliers may have some for sale during the bulbs dormant phase - Jan to May for me in UK.
    I have bought them when visiting Madeira at the Farmers Market in Funchal, but a long way to go for some plants!
    Seed suppliers may offer them for sale but patience is required to germinate and grow to flowering size.
    I sometimes offer small bulbs grown from my own seed.
    The large clumps of bulbs at Kew are the result of specialist knowledge and many years of care and attention.
    Well worth a visit to see and be inspired to grow them!

    Flowers on some of my bulbs:-


    Thanks for your interest.

  • Philip Adams
    2 years ago

    I too became quite enamored of this beautiful scilla and found a source. Three purchased bulbs produced three flowering scapes in the autumn here in southern California. I live in the San Fernando Valley part of Los Angeles, and the days can become pretty hot in July and August (88 to 95 degrees), but nights cool to 65 to 72 degrees. September days and nights begin cooling -- and the Scilla mads respond lustily to this cooler weather.


    I planted my purchased bulbs not above ground as in Kew's images but with the bulb's noses just above ground (potting soil) level. They have prospered thusly. Since I bought three bulbs, I have presumed they are seedling grown. And when they bloomed, I gently jostled the blooming scapes one against the other. Each scape produced an average of six or seven seed. I kept the plants properly watered until these green seed began to turn yellowish (in June). At that time, I carefully removed each maturing seed and kept it protected inside the house.


    After at least a month and beginning in July, all seed were harvested, and I soaked them in water overnight. The next day I was able to remove the outer pod material as it had become soft and mushy. Each seed pod had one hard black seed. Since the parent bulbs were quite going dormant for the summer, I planted these seed as if nature had dropped them. Just 1/8 inch deep in a mixture half perlite and half steam-sterilized humus was my choice of potting soil. I planted a crop of about 25 seed into one large (two gallon) shallow but wide pot. After planting and watering the seed, I stretched shrink-wrap over the pot so as to keep the planting medium -- and seed -- gently moist but not wet. I think every seed came up over a span of several weeks and appeared healthy.


    Here in southern California the winters are usually mild with the coldest nights at about 37 to 39 degrees. I babied these seedlings through the winter (bringing the pot inside for the night) and they have grown "great guns". Now, in early July 2021, the pot is exploding with healthy semi-mature leaves and have filled the pot as much as can be imagined. I am keeping it in dappled shade for the morning and full shade against the afternoon sun. It is now too late to divide this cram-packed pot, so I'll have to baby it through the 2021-2022 winter. When these seedlings go dormant next June or July, I will divide them and give them each a proper home.


    Note regarding my purchased bubs: I noticed that where the leaves had emerged from the bulbs, several leaves harbored populations of mealy bugs. I sprayed immediately, and it looks as if I have eradicated the infestation. A word to the wise: keep an eye out for mealy bugs on your bulbs!


    As for fertilizer, the Los Angeles city water is slightly alkaline. Consequently, I add a wee bit of acid fertilizer to the water every time watering seems required. I kept the parent bulbs as well as the babies gently watered but do not ever allow water to accumulate in the soil; the planting medium plus the active roots keep the soil more on the dry side rather than water-logged.


    If things continue to develop so well, then in the summer of 2022 I will plant these seedlings into the yard in a semi-protected spot and see how they do. Fingers crossed that in another year or two I should have a forest of blooms to rival the images of Kew's beautiful plants.


    Hope the above information may give you the impetus to grow your bulbs with perfect results.


    Phil

  • Leo Song Jr.
    2 years ago

    i can’t use this interface as it pauses and I just lost my chat. I use an iPhone



    Today

  • Leo Song Jr.
    2 years ago

    Two bulbs, one in leaf was smallest and one in bud from 2

  • Leo Song Jr.
    2 years ago

    2018 planting

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