Regarding the debate above, I don't think anyone can be wrong on the topic, because in the end personal experiences are going to vary from person to person despite the growing media, and much of it will be due to other factors not controllable by the growing such as temperature etc.

It is very clear that plants can be grown very well in organic media, for instance in my first post the fig trees growing in pots seem to be doing extremely well, and I would be very pleased to achieve even half that result. People still grow primarily in organic media, and for most of them there probably doesn't seem to be much reason to change.

Right now even I have a whole bunch of plants in pots, growing in potting mix from the local hardware store, I didn't know any better when I bought it, and just purchased whatever label and price caught my eye at the time. Not only that I have potted some of my plants (tomatoes) for two years in the same soil, without much thought. They all seem to be doing fine, and it is the poor support that I have that is limiting their growth rather than anything else as far as I can tell.

Moving toward a largely inert, (and for all intents and purposes) inorganic media to me is verging on a totally different growing technique. It seems to me that the container gardening forum could almost do with two sections, an organic and inorganic section, as techniques to both are quite different. Al's techniques to me seem like they straddle the line between regular and hydroponic gardening, as in hydroponics media like clay pellets are often used, which also contain no nutrients, and must be supplemented. The only difference between the two is there are no pumps or reservoirs, and so an attempt has been made to retain some of the water-holding properties of the growing media to make up for this.

As far as the debate between which will be more productive, without ever having tried Al's methods, it makes sense that they would produce more. There is no debate that pure hydroponic methods will produce much more vigorous, healthy and productive plants if done properly. There is however a bit of a double edged sword, because one mistake can kill everything, such as over fertilising, or pump failure etc.

So considering all this, on a sliding scale, I would suspect that organic based media is more forgiving to the gardener than something like Al's mixes which is more forgiving than pure hydroponics.

Arguing that you can grow 8ft tall tomatoes in an organic media does not disprove the productivity of Al's mixes, just as growing 8ft tall tomatoes in Al's mixes doesn't disprove the capabilities of an organic media.

Finally, the only point that I am going to make is that trees are not a single year crop, and I am almost certain that an organic media will degrade over time a lot faster than either of Al's mixes. This means that over time the benefits of a more stable mixture will become evident, whilst to maintain healthy growth an organic media would need to be re-potted more frequently.

This is primarily why I have decided to use a long lasting soil mix over an organic product.

If anyone read to the end of this, I would be interested to know about the freezing possibility I asked earlier. Will either of Al's mixes freeze easier or be susceptible to frosts?

Also, if Al is still following, I would like to know how catastrophic it may be to leave the bulk of the original soil on the figs when transplanting into the gritty mix. The pots they are in now are quite small, and the volume of original soil to new gritty mix will be quite small. Over time I suspect the soil will slowly filter down through the mix, but I cant imagine it having a large effect?...

Of course figs can grow well in a moisture retentive mix, they have tough as nails root systems that can oxygenate damn nearanything you would put in a container and suck up water so fast the medium won't be waterlogged for long.

DWD2, the 3-1-2 ratio is a rough ratio that corresponds to plant samples. I have seen the research, though I can't find the pdf right now. The ratios varied a bit with conifers being more like 3-1-1.6 but it works as a rough guide. Your citrus grower argument is flawed. Orchards are in the ground and the ground typically supplies enough P and K for plants needs, thus a focus on N. Most people over apply P and K on their landscapes. That is why soil tests are needed to determine a fertilizer regiment. In containers where you are not relying on the medium, 3-1-2 makes a lot more sense.

preston, you say, "Synthetics is absorbed faster than organics due to it's in an ionic form where organics has to be broken down before it is in an ionic form."

That would be true if synthetics only includes simple fertilizer salts like ammonium sulfate or potassium nitrate. However, urea requires at least enzymatic breakdown before N is available and long chain N sources like methylenedurea require breakdown as well. Organic feather meal is just a granular heat denatured protein, which is basically an untwisted long chain N source.

The term organic is very imprecise in many discussions like this one. According to "Barron's AP Environmental Science," healthy topsoil should consist of about 45 percent minerals (in combination with clay, silt and sand), 5 percent organic matter, 25 percent water and 25 percent air. If we just measure the half of top soil that is not water and not air, you could say topsoil is about 10 percent organic matter and 90 percent mineral. Is top soil "organic"? Gritty mix is 33 percent bark, which is organic matter. 5-1-1 is about 70 percent bark and about 15 percent peat, for an organic percent of 85 percent. Most commercial potting media that is labelled organic is usually primarily peat with a small portion of composted materials added in.

The most significant difference between Al's mixes and most commercial organic potting media is the size of the particles. The larger particle size of gritty and 5-1-1 allows more air in the mix which helps prevent compaction. The small amount of added organic matter in commercial media would have to carry a heavy load if it was the only source of plant nutrients. So organic growers, just like so called nonorganic growers, need to use fertilizers. They choose different kinds of fertilizers. The choice for organic growers using containers can be very complicated because they need to balance slow acting and fast acting sources as well as environmental conditions. It's a lot easier to select a balanced chemical fertilizer.

naikii, the techniques are not that different. The difference is really in the structure. You can still use "organic" methods with the 5-1-1 (it's just good basic potting medium), but you have to realize that any potting medium composed of primarily organic materials will break down quickly and become unsuitable for container culture in about a season (though some push it a little further). I grow all kinds of things in that, knowing that I am either going to potup, plant out, or discard in a season. The discarded medium goes into the landscape where a whole host of natural processes make the ultrafine material perfectly acceptable with regards to issues like air space. If however, you want a medium that will maintain structure longer, you need a primarily inorganic medium. As an aside, I find it interesting that people consider an inorganic medium unnatural but good natural soil has an inorganic fraction of about 90-95%. Regardless of which type of medium you choose, you still have to supply basic nutrients. Some people like to mix it into the medium at the beginning and just water. Others like to not mix anything in at all and just fertigate. Most add some to the medium and fertigate a bit. Some add feather meal as a long chain N source that breaks down over time and other add polymer coated N sources that dribble out fertilezer over a set period of time. Periodically those same people will have to add some more topdressing and scratch it into the surface.

I also think that hydroponics gets a bad reputation as high tech and complex because of the greenhouses and pumps and stuff. It really doesn't have to be all that. You can simply take a pot of gravel. Stick a plant in it and water with a nutrient solution like any other container plant and you have a simple "to waste" hydroponic setup. There are no pumps or tanks of nutrients. You don't need a pH meter since you just add a balanced fertilizer to your watering can each time you water. Simple. Now it might dry out too quickly to be convienient (although even plain gravel can hold a surprising amount of moisture), but that is solvable with a 30% cut of calcined clay (turface)

dangit ohiofem you beat me to my aside, lol.

{{gwi:3602}}

Im going to admit that my head is swimming right now. Ive read more and more threads and it doesn�t become any easier, just harder.

For instance I have just read a thread on the figs4fun forums, debating the merits of coir which turned into a massive debate. In truth I become lost in all the detail.

I am just looking for the best thing to plant into now, keeping most the soil and rootball intact, that will last me all winter and next year as well, to be repotted and root pruned into a larger pot at the end of winter 2014.

All plants put into clay or plastic pots (50L / 13gal) or half wine barrels (100L / 26gal).

Sounds like the answer is the 5-1-1 mix?

DWD2 it seems you disagree with Tapla across forums. As I said I don�t think either of you are wrong, just using different methods to achieve the same thing. I would be interested if you could post a recipe that you would recommend for figs and/or blueberries.

If you do this I will pot 1 of my figs and 2 of my blueberries now into your recommendation, and then when my fig cutting gets large enough I will pot that in it too. I will pot 2 of my figs and 2 of my blueberries in whatever the final decision on Tapla�s mix is and will follow up with the growth every couple of months in this thread for comparison.

It won�t be exactly comparable because there are different varieties of fig and blueberry, and one is a cutting I took myself, but for general comparison purposes all the other fruit trees are approximately the same age, and from the same nursery bought at the same time, and growing in what I assume is the same media for each fruit.

The only thing I ask is that I don�t have to wash all the soil from the roots now, I can put these small plants into fairly large pots straight away, I can keep the same soil until I root prune the plants in beginning of Spring of 2014 (Sept).

Anyone else who wants to chime in, I am going to use the 5-1-1 mix unless there are votes that the gritty mix will be better.

Thanks

nil13,

"preston, you say, "Synthetics is absorbed faster than organics due to it's in an ionic form where organics has to be broken down before it is in an ionic form."

That would be true if synthetics only includes simple fertilizer salts like ammonium sulfate or potassium nitrate. However, urea requires at least enzymatic breakdown before N is available and long chain N sources like methylenedurea require breakdown as well. Organic feather meal is just a granular heat denatured protein, which is basically an untwisted long chain N source."

Did you consider any of these ionic forms in your response?
H2PO4-, HPO42-, K+, Ca2+, Mg2+, SO42-, BO33-, Cl-, Cu2+, Fe2+, Fe3+, Mn2+, MoO42-, Zn2+
If you still don't agree that synthetic fertilizers are taken up by the roots quicker than organics, I can't help you.

This post was edited by prestons_garden on Tue, Jan 29, 13 at 11:04

naikii,

I feel I was part of the hijacking that took place on your thread, my apologies.

You just need to go with what you feel is right and make adjustments as you go. Be it the 5:1:1, 1:1, 3:2:1, or any possible ratio you can think of, these are all starting points. Don't over think it or those plants will will just sit there and you will become more frustrated.

When you get started, come back so we can help. Most of the time the debate doesn't go on for this long, you just got lucky.

If you end up using synthetics, it's very important that you flush your container with water only. I believe it's around every 4th or 5th fertilizing with synthetics a flush is required. Also, never apply a synthetic fertilizer to a dry medium, wet the medium first with water then fertilize. This will avoid damaging the roots.

This post was edited by prestons_garden on Tue, Jan 29, 13 at 11:02

HI Naikii..

I use the 5.1.1 mix on my figs and they grow marvelous! Believe it or not, you CAN kill a fig tree from over watering. I've done it.lol

The reason why I use the 5.1.1 is because it takes a bit more work to make the grittier one and the figs grow so fast. By the time the 5.1.1 even begins to break down before you have to change it, the roots have already out grown the pot.

Evereything I transplanted last spring has to be either potted up or root pruned. These things grow so darn fast! I have about 15 fig trees.

Mike

Thanks for that. the 5-1-1 mix it is! I feel great knowing I have plan in mind now!

DWD I really would like to test out your methods as well on half, if you stop by again, I would love to hear your recipe, from what I read on the figs forum you seem to have some science behind your thoughts as well.

Thanks to everyone for the help!

Nate

Hey, Nate!
I grow my Fig in the 5-1-1 as well. The root-growth is phenomenal.
As Mike mentioned, 5-1-1 is a good choice because these vigorous trees need to be re-potted
fairly often when they're in smaller containers (mine is in a 5-gallon, for example).

You also asked about bare-rooting or removing the old soil from the roots.
In the Gritty Mix it is very important to remove as much of the old soil as possible.

With the 5-1-1, removing all of the old soil isn't as critical because there is less
difference in texture between 5-1-1 and standard potting mixes. However, you should still
remove the outer mix and loosen the root-ball. Then, work the roots outward into the new mix
and try to "blend" the mixes together so that there isn't a hard transition.

Josh

Nate:
I was hoping one of the more experienced fig growers would respond to your question about freezing. I grow several different ficuses in both gritty mix and 5-1-1, but they are not the kind that bear fruit. I also live in the American Midwest where I would never leave any potted plant outdoors during the 4-5 months of the year when we have freezing temperatures. Even plants that do fine in the ground during a freeze would be likely to be damaged in a pot. Any container mix will freeze if the temperature stays below freezing for a significant period of time. I don't think these mixes are any more or less susceptible to freezing. I would guess that a looser mix like these would be less likely to cause damage to roots in a short term freeze. Compacted, wet soil seems like it could do more damage.

Nate - I think the gritty mix would be a better choice because it eliminates almost entirely the limitations imposed by soils that hold perched water, including the 5:1:1 mix. That said, it's been my experience that some plants are so genetically vigorous and grow so fast, that the difference between the limiting effects of the 5:1:1 mix and the gritty mix become less apparent than they might be if the plant material was less vigorous. Fig, mulberry, datura, brugmansia, tropical hibiscus .... are a few of the perennial plants I might choose to grow for the long haul in the 5:1:1 as opposed to the gritty mix, mainly because they will benefit from being repotted yearly or every other year at the longest. These plants still don't like the cyclical lack of O2 in the root zone associated with with water-retentive soils, but you can hardly notice the lost potential because of their inherent vigor.

Lost potential is something of an intangible, but once lost it's gone forever - cannot be reclaimed. I tried growing several plants using CHCs as a substitute for pine bark in the 5:1:1 mix. The plants looked healthy, but when compared with the same genetic material in the bark-based medium, they were only about half the size. Without a basis for comparison, it's sometimes very difficult to see lost potential, unless it actually assaults your eyes in the form of an obviously sickly plant.

BTW - I think it was you that mentioned the 'forgiveness factor'. Well-aerated soils that don't support significant PW columns are much more forgiving than soils that are excessively water retentive, and it's easier to make and keep nutrients available in a favorable ratio. Like a very large number of other growers, my ability to consistently bring along healthy plant material with more abundant yields than I had been used to, came as a result of reducing the water retention and increasing the air porosity of my soils. It was that easy.

Al

preston, those ions like Mg++ and SO4-- generally fall under the rubric of simple fertilizer salts. So yes I took those into consideration. Not all synthetic fertilizers are simple metal salts.

nil13,

Check your inbox, I sent you a civil message.

Ron

ok cool, it's not really a soil issue is it? lol

Ohiofem, I am truly sorry if you feel I was attacking you. That was not my intention. I do disagree with some of the things said and I have tried to say why and offer what I believe are authoritative sources of information that support what I say. That gives people the power to check your thinking and point out any weaknesses in your point of view. I am a scientist by training and that is how we do things in science. What I am also trying to do, apparently somewhat ineffectively, is provide people with resources I have discovered outside this forum by real horticultural experts that can help you understand the underlying principles of how to make and monitor growing media for plants. I recognize that a lot of people want a recipe for their growing. There are trade offs which, I believe, means there is no perfect media. There are a wide array of choices, each with its own pluses and minuses. Based on my research, I chose to avoid the gritty mix. I tried the 5-1-1 mix for a couple of years along with a couple of other pine bark based media. For my trees, I did not like them compared to some other media I tried. Since you ask, most of my trees are in a mix of 3 parts coconut husks, 1 part coconut coir, 1 part Sunland organic potting soil and 0.5 parts worm castings along with an appropriate amount of Sustane time release fertilizer and variable amounts of feather & blood meal and upon occasion other organic amendments as needed. I am very happy with my results. Others seem happy with the Gritty and/or 5-1-1 with Foliage Pro which is terrific.

Nate, that is a well said post. I agree exactly with your comment about growing big tomatoes. Lots of ways to do it. We seem to be in agreement that you can achieve those results organically as well as other methods.

nil13, I would be very interested to be pointed to a scientific publication demonstrating that a broad array of plants acquire nutrition in a 3-1-2 NPK ratio. I have a couple of hundred papers on various aspects of plant nutrition. I have not seen any scientific publication in the plant sciences supportive of 3-1-2 NPK ratio for nutrition being the reality across a broad array of plants. As I said above, that does not mean a 3-1-2 fertilizer will not work. I am sure you can get it to work well. But you can get a 10-10-10 to work well too. The management of the two is just different. However, if you have something demonstrating the 3-1-2 broadly, I always love to learn something I have missed.

Relative to citrus nutrition you might want to look at this reference:
http://www.actahort.org/books/843/843_33.htm
They measure the N, P, and K along with Ca, Mg and S in young citrus cultivars growing in pots at the transplanting & grafting stages. Table 2 shows that there is variation in N, P and K expressed as mg/plant between shoots, roots and whole plants as well as between cultivars. At the transplant stage, they report that Cleopatra citrus has a 33.8-1-21.3 NPK for the shoots, 18.1-1-10.3 NPK for the roots and 27.0-1-17.3 for the entire plant. For Swingle citrus, they report a 25.6-1-18.5 NPK for the shoots, 17.1-1-14.3 NPK for the roots and 22.5-1-17.0 for the whole plant. Those ratios are very far off the 3-1-2 "universal" ratio and there is also what I view as meaningful variation between cultivars. They report similar ratios for the grafting stage and for plants post grafting. They recommend fertilizing with a 15.5-1-11.6 fertilizer. There are other publications about container grown citrus with similar results, just not as thorough as the roots are not examined.

I pay to have my container-grown citrus leaves tested each year and I am pleased with my nutritional management and my trees.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/CH/CH04600.pdf
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/SS/SS53100.pdf
Once again, this is not to say one of the other mixes and conventional fertilizers will not give results that people are pleased with.

I agree with the notion that most or all of the components of the mixes we are discussing here are organic in nature. Perlite contains no carbon. So, it is not organic, but it is mined and is inert. I think it is safe to view it as an organic enough component. The real difference is nature of the nutrition supplied to the plants. Conventional growers use synthetically produced molecules that usually do not require further processing by microorganisms to a form usable by a plant. While organic growers use more complex, materials typically produced by other plants or animals that require processing by microorganisms to chemical entities usable by plants.

I think nil13's second post on Monday is really well said!!!

Ohiofem, there are a bunch of people on the Figs 4 Fun forum that grow figs in really cold environments that have practical experiences with that. I am pretty sure a number of them also check out the figs section on this forum. Where I live, we don't have freezing problems, happily. Although, it might be the case that the wetter soil actually offers more freeze protection as ice forming around roots might hold a few degrees of heat in the plant. That is what happens when they spray water on the above ground part of orchards during a freeze. But that is only a guess. I do not know for sure one way or the other.

For those looking to learn more, NC State University and University of Florida both have horticultural websites with loads of great information.

Good luck with your plants!

I have been reading this thread for a while and have been musing a bit.

What about growing 'organically' in pots, I mean organic fertilizer, and mixes with fine particle stuff such as compost for plants with very fine roots systems, very easily susceptible to root rot?
It seems that the very same type plants that are discussed above, can handle a moisture retentive mix quite easily if one knows what they are doing and if even if they do not know what they are doing.
These types of plants genetically have robust root systems than most anyway and are more forgiving of even hostile environments.

I can grow figs, tomatoes, peppers, many annuals, only a few perennials, mango, banana trees and other alike in the heavier mixes you speak of with no problem. I can even grow many of these plants feeding them only organics, but only for a short time before nutritional issues creep up.

What about the very sensitive tropical plants, bonsai, azalea, roses, gardenia and the such that need to be in mixes that dry out more rapidly and that need require more frequent waterings to encourage healthy root function?

Thanks

This post was edited by meyermike_1micha on Wed, Jan 30, 13 at 11:59

DWD2, I'll have to track the paper down. It was mainly landscape plants though. That Brazil citrus paper looks interesting. Hydroponic citrus? Yeah ok, I could see how they could lock down a NPK ratio with that setup, lol. It does make sense that a food plant would require extra N.

I agree that there are a lot of different mixes that you can get to work well. I think the 511 and the gritty are good starting places for people to begin getting away from mucky bagged potting soil and start learning about the effects of particle size and air space on their plants. But it certainly isn't the end all. I know I'm constantly playing with different mixes all the time. I just had good success with lettuce grown in #1s filled with 3 (1/2>1/8 sifted free municipal compost) : 1 (calcined clay). It was a little wet for plug pots but the entire volume of the #1 showed full and vigourous root colonization. The reason for the test being that the chunk of land where I want to grow vegetables is about 86% fine sand and can use both of those ingredients but doesn't really need perlite.

FWIW - a study done re the efficacy of coir as a significant fraction of a container medium can be found at the link below. Because coir and CHC's (coconut husk chips) are the same product in different size gradients, it wouldn't be much of a leap to suggest that the findings for growing in CHCs or CHCs + coir would be similar.

A summarization of the findings, which can be found at the end of the information at the link:

Summary

These studies show that coconut coir should be used with great caution. Although the Sri Lanka brands performed better than the Mexican brands, no brand performed better than sphagnum peat. Some species tolerate coir better than others. The addition of calcium sulphate to the media did not have consistently beneficial effects on growth, and in some cases it reduced growth. The best growth in coir media occurred in the Grow Coir brand. We are continuing these studies to determine the underlying causes of poor plant growth in coir.

Al

Here is a link that might be useful: Coir study

Thanks for the replies, I will test out the mix you posted DWD2 on half, is it necessary to use the specific sunland brand or can I substitute for any organic mix? I am not sure how easy it will be to find in Aus...

Now I have also begun the hunt for appropriately sized pine bark, it seems the local hardware/garden chain stocks a a number of products, but only two that i think could possible fit the bill.

One seems like it is too large, and the other seems much finer, however I am not sure what sort of wood it is, it isnt marked on the packet. It is sold as childrens safe playground mulch with no sharp edges (and its $17 a bag!)

I have attached photos, I couldnt take the wood out of the packet, but I sense these may not be appropriate.. ill attach as separate posts

Second shot

The finer but unknown wood product

second shot

And one more followup question, I am concerned the PH of your mix DWD will be too high for the blueberries, will it be ok to add some sulfur?

The second one appears to be fresh wood shavings/chips, not bark, so it's far from ideal. The first one contains primarily bark, which is better, but it's quite coarse. Nonetheless, you could probably make it work if there are a reasonable number of particles under 3/8" to 1/2" -- you'd just need to screen out anything larger. The fact that it's fresh rather than aged is less than ideal, as well, so you might need to up the amount of peat in order to boost water retention (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

This post was edited by shazaam on Wed, Jan 30, 13 at 20:39

If you haven't read it already, I've added a link to a thread that collects a lot of helpful information about how to assemble Al's 5-1-1 mix.

Here is a link that might be useful: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

I have just finished that paper on coir peat. I found it very interesting, in particular the two tables at the end.

In almost all cases, especially in the corn leaf analysis, the coir has a higher percentage of elements present. Sometimes markedly so. The sun leaves product which performed the best overall, and almost identically to peat has much closer values to the peat than even the other coir products. This might suggest some sort of mineral toxicity?

Most interestingly in my mind, is that they suggest toward the beginning of the paper that because electrical conductivity was higher in the coir mixes that perhaps salinity contributed to poor growth. The final table shows however that the levels of sodium were the highest in the best performing �Sun Leaves� coir mix (941mg/kg), much higher than the peat mix (644mg/kg) and yet the researchers rated the broccoli plant growth exactly the same as peat when gypsum was added.

What doesn�t make sense out of the whole paper is why there is such drastic differences between brands of coir, and the country of origin. Perhaps some species of coconut produce coir which have some alleopathic properties that inhibit growth, or the different methods used to treat the coir for export, or during processing cause this.

To me the take home message of the paper is this; coir treated with gypsum has the potential to grow as effectively as peat, at least in corn and broccoli, however there is also a bit of an inherent gamble because not all products perform, and those that don�t perform do so in a spectacular horrible way.

Hello,

What I got from that paper is that coir is useless and the only one that might come close to being as good as peat is the 'Grow Coir' brand which I couldn't find anywhere..

I was wondering, does anyone have an answer to my last post yet?

Thanks

Mike:-)

This post was edited by meyermike_1micha on Wed, Jan 30, 13 at 21:47

Mike, On these forums, I often see references to water (or moisture) retentive mixes. Any growing mix you use better retain some water or your plants will die. There are scientifically defined measurements of the 6 properties I mention in my post last Sunday. There is a lot of science that shows how to manage irrigation and nutrition to produce quality plants. I make sure the media I use fall within those parameters and I do not experience irrigation problems unless I mess-up. You could over irrigate ANY mix, even pure perlite, if you tried. I grow a number of the things you grow. I am not sure what you define as a heavier mix, but mixes that fall within the parameters I listed are pretty straightforward to manage. For my trees & blueberries I only provide nutrition 4 or so times a year. Tomatoes in a pot will need additional nutrition as they get along in the season. But that is true irrespective of whether you are growing conventionally or organically. I have no direct experience with tropical plants, azalea, roses or gardenia but I have seen nothing in my reading that says they are any different. One of the leaders in soilless media research is Michael Raviv. Professor Raviv does most of his work on roses. Here is a paper where he compares rose growth in a pine bark based media to growth in coconut coir. The coir appears superior as measured by flower production.
http://journal.ashspublications.org/content/126/5/638.full.pdf

The Utah State University website blurb is not from a scientific, peer-reviewed journal. This website posting is the only work these authors have done on coconut coir. That does not make it incorrect. There are many dozens of publications in scientific journals describing how to incorporate coir into growing mixes effectively with very positive results. Greenhouse growers routinely grow crops in pure coir. Like EVERY component you choose to put into your growing mix, there are variations in how it was produced that will impact how it performs. Here is a link to a video from the University of Florida detailing the use of coir:
http://virtualfieldday.ifas.ufl.edu/suwanneevalley/hydroponicgreenhouse/coconut_coir.shtml
Somebody appears to be having good enough results with coir that companies are manufacturing coir slabs in lay flat bags. It is now used in huge quantities in growing operations around the world. It is a great media component in my opinion and a great substitute for peat moss.

naikii, I like the Sunland mix for the particular microorganisms they put in the mix and a couple of other reasons. In the states, most organic potting mixes are now coming with added mycorrhizae and beneficial bacteria. I would assume the same is true in Australia and that any reasonable mix would work. As I mentioned above, the media using CHC & coir is what I use to grow my fruit and citrus trees. For blueberries I follow the Dave Wilson Nursery media suggestion mostly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnbYI4zaR48&feature=related
Be aware that there are meaningful differences in different sources of bark, peat moss and potting soil for acid loving plants. Once I have a base media with the organic nutrition amendment(s) included, I check the pH using the pour thru method. You will probably have to use some sulfur to get the pH down with this mix, but the amount can vary a lot depending on your particular components. It is worth doing a titration with a few small tester batches to get the sulfur amount correct prior to potting your blueberries.

As I indicated above, there is a tremendous amount data at odds with the Utah State posting. It has been known since the mid-1990's that how the coir is processed affects its horticultural properties. I get my CHCs and coir from Crystal Company in St. Louis and am pleased with their products.

Mike, I tried to answer your post.

Good luck with your growing!

Feeling good, picked up many ingredients for Al's mix today :) 15l of peat and another 15l of perlite, also some osmocote plus for containers, an osmocote plus for azaleas, some dolomite lime and miracle grow all purpose fertiliser.

I also grabbed 8 23l pots, 4 brown and 4 cream so its easy to spot which mix is which, even from a distance!

Now I just need to source some appropriate pine and coir!

I also have my gardening helper to make sure I don't screw up ;)

Thanks for that video DWD I will follow that mix for the blueberries

Since you'll be growing blueberries, naikii, and have been weighing the merits of the various potting mixes that others have recommended, I thought I'd share this short video of a commercial farmer in SC who grows highbush blueberries in 40-gallon nursery pots filled with pure pine bark.

Here is a link that might be useful: YouTube Video - Growing Blueberries in Pure Pine Bark

You are all being so very helpful!

Thank you to everyone trying to help me and for the video's!:-)

Pretty interesting info. Now, if a lightning bolt could just hit the tree now blocking all my morning sun and knock it down so I can give my bluberries lots of light:-(

Mike:-)

Hello all -

Has anyone done a direct comparison of the same plant that has been grown for a season in different mediums such as the gritty mix or 5-1-1 in terms of overall health, appearance, and fruit production?

Although having the same plant grown in different mediums under the same conditions would be the best comparison to determine the difference in expected growth between the gritty and 5-1-1, I am also curious if anyone has grown figs that are expected to grow at about the same rate (i.e. essentially the same genetic potential)in the same season in the 5-1-1 and gritty mix? Or if this has not been done what would the hypothesis be for the above experiment? What if both fig trees were grown in a 15 gallon container of 5-1-1 or a 15 gallon container of gritty mix? Also, any idea what the comparison would be to the gritty/5-1-1 if the tree were grown in a 15 gallon pot containing a more peat based or peat/pumice mix with compost with the pot in direct contact with the ground so as to hopefully wick excess moisture to earth? The gritty and 5-1-1 would be fertilized by synthetic chemical and the fig grown in the peat/pumice mix would get its nutrients from the previous/current chemical breakdown of the compost with perhaps enhanced uptake by mycorrhizae.

I have used the gritty mix with very good results for various plants in much smaller containers in the house.

I am really curious to know if I should expect similar growth in the gritty vs. the 5-1-1 for a fig when in the 15 gallon size containers outside this season or if there would be a significant difference in growth between the gritty and 5-1-1 mediums - of course the gritty will be extremely heavy and the 5-1-1 much lighter.

I know between the gritty and 5-1-1 one difference is I can go much longer between repots (up to 5 yrs - assuming roots do not need pruned - with the gritty but replace the 5-1-1 after 1 season due to decomposition) - but I am curious if the gritty would be expected to provide much better or similar growth of a fig tree compared to the 5-1-1 mix? I am in the Saint Louis area where summer temps can get pretty hot - last summer was a bit unusual with several weeks more than 100 but in the 90's is typical.

Thanks,
Brian

Hello All -

Sorry for the previous repost, which is a duplicate. Please disregard. I am not sure how it got there - computer glitch. There was nothing in the message box. I had to hit refresh on the internet page window this morning and when I did it said your message has been posted. I have had to press the refresh before with no problem -- not sure why the computer decided to repost when I did it this morning.

Brian

Brian, some of us don't need a side by side comparison:-)
My comparison has been a year by year, over the years one.

After years of growing in everything but the 5.1.1 mix, and then failing and loosing my plants, or seeing the production of my plants put out much less,not grow to to their full potential by suffering nutritional issues, stunted growth, yellowing leaves and root rot , pest infestations and a lack of vigor, that was enough for me.

Finally while using the 5.1.1, I would never go back to the old way, because I have nothing to complain about, loose, and or would want anything less than the best for my plants compared to when I used my old methods.

For me a side by side comparison may not always be reliable because so many factors may affect each plant at any time.
I am more comfortable with seeing years of consistent improvement on the same plants over the long haul and years.

It only takes an unseen pest to decline the health of a plant in a side by side comparison, ect.

Mike

This post was edited by meyermike_1micha on Fri, Feb 1, 13 at 8:33

Hey all, well I spent an entire morning trying to track down ingredients, and ended up finding what I think is some very nice pine bark.

DWD I have to apologise and go back on what I said earlier. I went to over a dozen stores and not one of them stocked the coconut husks required, I could only find coir. No one had any of the required additives for Dave WIlsons mix for blueberries either.

In the end I gave up once finding the fine pine bark and just mixed a big batch of Als 5-1-1 mix, perhaps in a year or two when I repot Australian nurseries will have caught up with the rest of the world and stock some of these more exotic ingredients (or maybe its just my town.

Thanks to everyone for the help.

Here is a pic of the pine bark I found.

The final mix

all done! I ran out and so could only fill the blueberry pots half way.

Hi naikii,

The mix that you just made looks wonderful!

I have been following this thread with great interest as well. Most of my trees ( tropicals) and C&S are in the Gritty Mix or the 5-1-1 and are all doing great!

This mix has really helped with all of my tropicals trees growing to their maximum potential and I am always amazed at the amount of beautiful blooms that I have now that I have changed their mix from a "bagged" mix to this more aerated mix that has shown me the difference in the root system which in turn delivers me the maximum bloom production during the summer with my Plumeria and Adeniums. I have learned that this mix makes my roots happy and not have any issues with the perched water so they are not rotting as in the past using other soil.

The key to a happy and healthy plant starts at the roots...

I am always looking for another alternative for the Fir Bark that I use. could you tell me the name brand of the last pic of your Pine Bark that you are using? Looking back up thread, I couldn't tell what the brand was.

It looks great to me and if I can find it here in my area that would be helpful!

Thanks for taking the time to post all of your information... Great thread!

Take care,

Laura

Hey Laura, it was indeed quite a chore to find anything suitable, I thought I was going to have to make do with what the stores had... The lady at the nursery actually mentioned it was a new product they had just got in.. Here is a pic for you, and best of all there is a website, so maybe there will be a phone or email to find a local stockist :)

Hi naikii,

Thank you for your quick response!

I will check them out and hopefully find this product locally!

I hope you have great success in your growing endeavors!!

Thank you again for all of your help and for this very informative post!

Hoping that everyone is having a great weekend!!! ;-)

Take care,

Laura

Hello, Mike, great points! Hey, Laura, I agree completely ;-)

Naikii, the mix looks really good. Well done! Now, for after-care, you'll want to put
your plants in an area protected from direct sun and wind - I put my plants in bright shade
with only some dappled sunlight throughout the day. This will help the plant retain leaves
(moisture) while the roots are "offline." In general, two weeks is a good amount of time to
allow the plants to adjust. Depending upon the plant, and the previous sun exposure, you may
be able to start increasing the sun after three days or so - I'll use hot peppers for an example.
With other plants, an Avocado for instance, I would coddle a re-potted plant for at least two full weeks.

Let us know how it goes.

Josh

Thanks for the advice Josh, I probably should should have checked in earlier, because I put them back in their original spots after repotting, in full sun.

Lucky for me they didnt seem to mind the abuse I laid upon them, including shaking off a good 1/2-3/4 of the original mix.. They didnt even pout yesterday, not a wilted or dropped leaf in sight. This morning I even came out to find that one of the figs broke a new bud.

I will monitor them for stress, and if needed move them into the shade, for now though I think I'll test their strength for another day or two.

So…after all that, how did the figs and blueberry plants do? :-)

Well, I had some issues and ended up re-potting everything.

Blueberries were kept in a 5-1-1 style mix, but I added lots more perlite and bark- it was far too wet, and I also acidified their water.

Figs all went into a coconut husk mix, instead of 5-1-1 and saw marked growth.

All are thriving now.

For instance this blueberry, from my follow-up thread

{{gwi:3603}}

Today looks like this:

{{gwi:3604}}

And this fig, black genoa, which looked like this;

{{gwi:3605}}

In Jan looked like this (is mid Autumn now, has no leaves today):

{{gwi:3606}}

I have a couple of follow up threads, if your'e interested.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg0301115119857.html?9

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg0420202910105.html?13

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/fruit/msg0403265632060.html?33

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg120442417885.html

OH! And of course, tonnes of delicious blueberries and figs!

{{gwi:3607}}

{{gwi:3608}}

{{gwi:3609}}

{{gwi:3610}}

{{gwi:3611}}

{{gwi:3612}}

{{gwi:3613}}

Hi Naikii,
Happy to see your update to this thread. It’s nice to know you finally worked it out and have such healthy growth for all your efforts. They look really great! I've enjoyed reading about your experiments and adjustments and seeing all the photos was very helpful.

I've just started using 5-1-1 for tomatoes and happy with how that is going so far. I'm also preparing to plant blueberries in the ground, so this thread came up in a search.

Very interesting and helpful, thanks for the time you spent to record it all and take photos and keep updating. :-)