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redshirtcat

Gritty Mix + Citrus Plants + Foilage Pro - Questions

redshirtcat
13 years ago

Hi - I have some bare root plants on the way that I'd like to try in the gritty mix and I just want to be sure that I have things ready for when they arrive. I'm hoping al or someone more experienced than me can shed some light on the situation..

My basic setup:

- I'm using reptibark for the pine fines (I actually have access to pine fines locally but they are slightly larger - however they will be partially composted, should I use that instead?)

- I have several bags of #2 cherrystone grit ("Traction grit" and "#2 medium") which I will wash. This was expensive and I'm wondering if I can use what my local guy calls "trap rock" in the future?

- I have screened turface

- I have a bag of "Gypsum - Calcium Sulfate" (though I'm not sure exactly why).

- I'm using poly teracotta-colored 5 gallon (12") pots with the built-in drip pan below. I have screens for each pot to prevent the mix from falling through. (Should I remove the drip pans?)

I've decided to try to use Foilage Pro as my fertilizer as it is 9-3-6 (close to the 5-1-3 for citrus), can be mixed into water, and contains micronutrients.

My local water tests at an absurdly high 9.7 ph (is this normal?) I read that citrus prefer 5.5-6.5 soil ph. Is this mix ph neutral to the point that I need to be making sure the water I'm adding is in the 5.5-6.5 range? Do I do this with vinegar as I have read in several places here or with magnesium sulfate (as my local nursery guy said) - I've tried lowering water ph with the epsom salt and it didn't seem to do anything, maybe it doesn't work in water, just soil and mixes?

--

I have the following additional questions:

-Any glaring errors in my setup?

-Do I need to moisten the mix before I put the plants into it so that the turface doesn't suck all the moisture out of the roots before I get them situated?

-How should I be using this gypsum? What quantities per 2-3 year old citrus tree in a 5 gallon (12") pot?

-Will things like beneficial bacteria that I use in soil work in this mix?

-Where does the fertilizer end up being stored in the pots? Does the turface or bark suck it up? Do I need to fertilize with a weak solution every watering since a lot will drip through or foilar feed or etc?

-Are there any chemicals to leach out of the turface that won't be good for fruit?

Sorry - it's a lot of questions but I've never tried anything like this before and just want to be sure before I have some more dead trees on my hands (this time my fault).

Comments (80)

  • tn_veggie_gardner
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mike! Good to see you again, my friend. BTW, my lime tree is still doing great & now about 3 years old. I'm hoping for a lime or two off it this year. I'll have to take a new pic of it & let you see it, so you maybe can give me an estimate if you think it will fruit this year. I'm quite sure it needs to be potted up too. Any reccomendations/specifics I need to follow when doing so? Sorry all if I kind of broke into this thread a bit...lol...ttyl. =)

    - Steve

  • redshirtcat
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    So I called DynaGrow today and the woman I spoke with said that so long as the 2 solutions are both acidic there should be no problems with precipitation. Since FP and Vinegar are both acidic she says there should be no issue in terms of mixing the concentrates.

    I'll test it in a small bottle and see if I get any precip or cloudiness and let you know.

  • redshirtcat
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well my trees from Four Winds still aren't here yet but it was overcast and 60 degrees out today so I tried to bare root and repot one of my larger lemon trees. It was in an 26qt container and was completely root bound. It had been "potted up" for 8-10 years and hare a core of clay and toward the outside compacted sand. Water sat in the top of this pot for maybe 20 minutes before draining.

    I did the best I could getting all the soil off (really a huge amount, only a little bit left in the core). I didn't trim off the bottom third as that seemed to just happen naturally in the process of bare rooting it. I made sure to keep the roots wet... I hope I didn't shock it into oblivion by doing it all at once.

    It is now in a 38qt container. I put a thin layer of pine bark on the top just to make it look nice - will that cause any problems? Will it make it more likely to harbor pests or anything?

    Here are some pics: {{gwi:4358}}From Al's Gritty Mix
    {{gwi:4359}}From Al's Gritty Mix
    {{gwi:4360}}From Al's Gritty Mix

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The pine bark on top is ok - especially so if everything was screened. If that's the plant after repotting, it looks pretty good so far. Did you add a little soil and work it into the roots before adding a little more and working THAT into the roots, too - so there are no air pockets in the soil?

    Good job!

    Al

  • redshirtcat
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I did my best to work it in with a little skewer. That was by far the most difficult part. The root ball was pretty large and I'm not 100% that there are no air pockets. I worked at it for a good while though.

    I have several more like this to do (if this one makes it) and I think that I will look for some kind of cloth mesh that will hold the soil so that I can turn the tree over, work in the soil really well, then put on the mesh to hold it in place while I flip it back into the pot. Does that sound like it might work? Something like 1/8" mesh should hold everything and also let roots develop? Or would that maybe somehow mess with the drainage or create a PWT?

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    When I repot, I usually concentrate on removing all the roots immediately under the trunk, so that all the roots growing off the root flare are growing horizontally. Initially, I was doing this because 95% of the trees I'm growing are being grown on as future bonsai and will need to fit in shallow pots. I discovered though, that if you DO remove all the roots growing downward off the trunk each time you repot/root prune, it makes repotting MUCH easier - there IS no 'middle of the root ball' to fuss with, because it's just fine roots growing off the bottom of the trunk, that you prune each time you repot.

    ALSO, it allows you to mound the soil in your container, like a volcano. As you settle the plant over the 'volcano' and twist it to settle the soil in the cone around the roots, a LOT of the effort is suddenly missing from trying to ensure that you get soil worked into the middle of the roots. Just a little something I've learned .... As you guys progress, I'm sure you'll find many of your own short cuts/time savers you can share with others. I'm just happy that people are embracing the concept that root-pruning of perennials is essential to the health and vitality of your long term plantings .... 'crossover' information courtesy of the bonsai community, that only a very tiny fraction of growers even know about let alone understand.

    Good job!

    Al

  • redshirtcat
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for all of the help here and in other places Al. I'll post a few follow up photos in a few days to follow up. I salvaged that 5-1-1 and now have 4x the mix I had before... a good excuse to start more seeds :)

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Love the attitude - the positive approach!
    {{gwi:4361}} Outstanding!


    .... appreciate the kind words as well. ;o)

    Al

  • jodik_gw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nicely done! I, too, love the positive approach everyone has going on! It's great! :-)

  • redshirtcat
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The plant is still looking good a day later. I have the humidity up around 55% in that room so hopefully that will prevent it from going all limp like I've seen happen before.

    It strikes me as I think about it that things in the gritty mix will be much harder to pot up? I can see how repotting will be easier since the soil should fall off much more readily - but if a year from now I just want to pot this up what would be the best way of going about that? Is there some way to avoid all the soil falling right off and having to re-work it back into the roots at that time?

    I picked the biggest pot I could find so it might never be an issue but just figured I'd ask.

  • jojosplants
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You'd be surprised at how it all stays together once the roots have filled a container.

    I'll share a picture of a bulb i re potted not to long ago.
    No roots when I planted it, and 9 months later looked like this below.

    The tree's growth will be slower i'm sure, but this will show how it holds up. ;-)

    It lifted out in one piece.

    By the way, great thread everyone! I've really enjoyed this one!

    {{gwi:4362}}

    JoJo

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's quite fine if some, or even a good portion of the soil falls off the roots when you pot up - a GOOD thing, even. Of course, if that happens, there was probably no reason to pot up to begin with because the plant would still have been growing in to the pot (like a kid grows into his snow suit). ;o)

    Al

  • jojosplants
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What's a snow suit? ;-)
    JJ

  • meyermike_1micha
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well done! Well done!

    Jojo..A snow suit is what a snow man wears to his prom!:-)

    lol

    MIke

  • jodik_gw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Too cute, Mike! :-)

    A snowsuit is a one piece, zip up, insulated, coverall-like suit that kids wear in winter, JoJo! Some have hoods, and Moms usually attach the mittens to the sleeves so you don't lose one! :-) There are adult sized snowsuits, too! Kind of like footie pajamas without the feet!

    Speaking of snowsuits... I just looked out the window and we're in the middle of a blizzard! It's March! How about a little spring, Mother Nature? We're definitely ready!

    Strong growing on that bulb, there, JoJo! Nice!

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Rain/snow/freezing rain/sleet here. Gore Tex snowsuit weather.

    Al

  • jodik_gw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes... don't put away those winter clothes just yet! Every year, I get a lot more tired of cold weather a lot sooner! I think we could use a group prayer for earlier spring! :-)

  • Jessicasgrowincitrus
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow! What an awesome thread, and perfect timing! I am on the cusp of transplanting my Meyer too! This thread could not have come at a better time!

    I do have a question though. I am curious about pot material preferences. Clay/terracotta vs. plastic? I want to keep the weight of my pots down so I can easily move them in and out in the summer and rotate them in the window in fall/winter so I was leaning toward a plastic pot. Is there some reason I should reconsider clay?

    Once again, thanks for all the advise all!

    ~Jessica

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You're considering two different perspectives, so have to weigh things in the balance. From the perspective of plant health/vitality/growth rate, the terra cotta definitely gets the nod over plastic. Its walls are gas permeable, so the soil dries down faster (a plus), the evaporation of moisture from the outside of the pot cools soils considerably in summer, but because evaporation is slow in cool temps, has almost no impact on soil temps when it's cool. It also allows gasses like CO2, methane, and sulfurous compounds to pass out of the soil through the container's walls. The more frequent watering required when growing in terra cotta is also a plus from the plant's perspective because that too forces soil gasses out of the soil every time you water, pulling fresh air in as it exits the pot.

    Plastic and vitrified pots don't do any of these things, but plastic IS lighter and it can be more attractive, which is pretty much what hangs in the balance unless your goal is to extend the intervals between waterings for some reason.

    Is using plastic or glazed clay the end of the world? NO. But if you were using terra cotta vs plastic and all else was equal, including watering/fertilizing appropriately, you would almost undoubtedly see a noticeable difference in a side by side comparison. I do grow a TON of plants in plastic and and glazed clay, but when I want stuff to grow fast & healthy and don't particularly care about 'presentation', it goes into a container with gas-permeable walls, that being terra cotta, wood, or some sort of mesh material.

    Al

  • jojosplants
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jessica,
    I just asked Mike in another thread about the pot sizes he's using.
    I believe he said 12", and I know he moves his in and out, and they are terra cotta.
    If your going to bring the tree in come winter, your not going to want a huge tree, so I could see where a 12" would work out. :-)

    I plan on bringing my Meyer in come winter, and am going to use a 12 or 14" terra cotta. And maybe my pink lemon. May have to move hubby's recliner outside.;-).he he..

    As far as year round use, I feel the same about terra cotta as Al does. In my corner of the world I need the cooling effect!

    Almost all my outside tree's will be in terra cotta.

    I have one huge plastic that I bought before getting here and learning the benefits of terra cotta, that I will use. It's 16" and cost me a few pretty pennies. lol..

  • meyermike_1micha
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey everyone..Hello!!!

    Look at Jessica go..:-) I am so proud of you.

    Al couldn't of said it better Jessica. After all, I owe much I know to such a remarkable teacher!

    Please post your pictures once your done, and you might like the thread I am going to link you too. Have no fear if your tree does not react the way you want right away. If it does react well right away, the all then more exciting!

    Many here will help you alleviate any fears you have if you stumble over a stone and pick you right up.

    Citrus are much more tough than a Mango:-)

    We shall chat later. I hope you got my e-mails.

    Have a great night my dear friends.....:-0))

    Mike:-)

    Here is a link that might be useful: Pugs experience with a repot into the gritty mix.

  • jodik_gw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi, Jessica!

    I would opt for unglazed clay pots, myself... because of the reasons Al gives, and because I like the look, too. You could always use the small plant dollies sold at most garden centers, and the small wheels would make moving and turning the pots much easier.

    I use a moving dolly to cart my large pots around the yard outside. It's much easier than trying to wrestle with them! :-)

  • jojosplants
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The dolly is a life saver!

    Hubby needs to air up the tires on ours and i'm good to go.
    Due to our yard being gravel, were setting the pots on boards to make it easier to get the dolly under them.

    JoJo

  • redshirtcat
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    For anyone interested it looks like FP and 5% vinegar (the regular white stuff from the store) will hold together in 1:1 without a bacterial bloom or any precipitation that I can see.

    So if like me you need 1 tsp per gallon of vinegar and another tsp per gallon of Foliage pro you should be able to mix them both into a hose end sprayer in 1:1 without issue. It's been a week now in a sunny (though indoor) spot without problems.

  • Jessicasgrowincitrus
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Al, Jodi, JoJo And Mike!

    In order to provide my trees with the optimal amount of light each day they are upstairs in my home.

    Right now my Meyer is in a 16" plastic pot, but it is too big for me to move comfortably up and down the stairs, so I want to downgrade a bit if I can without upsetting the tree too much.

    I will most likely go with Terra cotta or some sort of clay material I think. I am really concerned with weight, so I will make a decision when I get to the hardware store tonight. I do not need to worry too much about the additional cooling effects of clay either because we rarely see a hot summer here (last year being the exception with 4 or 5 days in a row at 90 degrees) we usually stay around the low 70's and summer only happens here in the later part of June and the months of July and August (if we are lucky�).

    My vanity may get the best of me on this one. We'll see when I get to the store tonight.

    I am picking up my Turface today after work so I should have photos to share in the next 48 hours or so!

    ~Jessica

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey, look! - someone's doing the happy dance for you!

    Al

  • jodik_gw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We're more than happy to help, Jess! There's a great and positive support team here! :-)

  • meyermike_1micha
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    There sure is a positive support team! This is how it is suppose to be and these are the very same ones that got me to where I am today Jessica.

    I love the happy dancer! Sort of the dance I did when I finally picked up the last ingredient after looking for weeks for it.. The fir bark..:0)

    Great work and thanks for supporting my friends and me everyone!

    Can't wait to see the pics Jessica. I am very proud of you as is everyone else as you can tell. Now we need to get Laura's plants into the mix and groove too..:-)

    I think Jojo and Jodik are still doing the dance too. Much worth while and very rewarding work ahead of us all. Hey, i am still doing the groove thing overtime I see one of my plants react wonderfully to the mix as soon as I switch it from the bagged garbage.

    Mike

  • redshirtcat
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The Four Winds trees arrived today and I got them potted into the gritty mix. I have a few questions:

    Has anyone else noticed that the bark behaves oddly in this mix in terms of staying homogeneous? When I shovel or pour it into containers I seem to get very uneven bark distribution. Is this a problem? Should I get smaller bark next time? Or does this happen to everyone?

    Did I use the wick correctly? I didn't pull it up into the pot, I just circled it around the bottom and pulled it through the drain hole. I suppose this will help get any water sitting in the bottom of the pot to drain out into the catch pan? Was I supposed to pull it up into the pot?

    The Four Winds documentation says not to plant the trees too deep - they say that the feeder roots should be visible and not covered. But the feeder roots are white and were clearly buried before as the tops have no bark covering them - should I still leave these visible or just plant at the same level they had been (which is what I did)?

    Anyway, some photographs (blurry because I left macro mode on, eyeroll):

    Tango
    {{gwi:4363}}From Four Winds Citrus Trees

    Here you can see my mix and the size of the bark - is it too big and is that why it's behaving oddly? This is the same mix I uploaded a photograph of up above
    {{gwi:4364}}From Four Winds Citrus Trees

    Bearss
    {{gwi:4365}}From Four Winds Citrus Trees

    She thinks it's a new litter box...
    {{gwi:4366}}From Four Winds Citrus Trees

    Gold Nugget
    {{gwi:4367}}From Four Winds Citrus Trees

    Root System of the Bearss before I washed some more chips out:
    {{gwi:4368}}From Four Winds Citrus Trees
    {{gwi:4369}}From Four Winds Citrus Trees

    I somehow forgot to take a picture of the Meyer? It had a massive root system I was probably too busy trying to figure out how to fit it into the pot.. tiny top growth for the size of the root system I guess they pruned it back pretty heavily.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If the fir bark gets much larger than 1/4", it's more difficult to keep it mixed. Pine bark isn't as bad because it has a flatter shape & stays mixed better.

    The wick is fine just lying on the bottom of the pot.

    I probably would have ignored or removed the fine adventitious roots that radiate from the trunk above the larger roots, and potted the plant so the larger roots were partially exposed.

    Al

  • cebury
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Redshirt, I've many Citrus trees (4W and other) in the gritty mix. If you have any questions you can email me via this forum.

    Al is correct, if the size of the bark is too large, it exhibits the behavior you are witnessing. If you have an Orchard Supply Hardware near, buy 1 bag of their WonderBark "Fines"/Smallest size. This is a great example of bark that are the right size and have minimal woody material.

    The vast majority of the bark components should be no bigger than your pinky fingernail.

    I would not suggest you use a wick with the gritty mix. I only scanned the thread and I couldn't find why you were doing this. It's not necessary but I guess if I were in Zone 6 then I might try it, too (JIC).

    Foliage Pro is excellent, but Citrus are heavy feeders and I have trouble keeping anything in the gritty mix well fed if you don't do the "feed at every watering method" which takes lots of time. I would strongly suggest you use your Slow Release pellets (at 100% the rate suggested for typical outdoor plants) and then supplement with Foliage Pro perhaps every other watering. If you go with ONLY CRF to make it easier on yourself, then you need to use many more pellets for outdoor citrus in the gritty mix, even if the warm season is shorter in your area. But as stated above, you'll need to provide Mg if you forego FP.

    You can ignore the typical concerns about "don't plant too deep" that you usually hear (which are mostly for in-ground citrus, but also concerned for heavy mix in containers) because the gritty mix will always be dry in the top 1/2 inch of soil for outdoor citrus in direct sunlight. In my zone9, it dries almost immediately due to heat and arid. But in your zone even the sunlight should dry it out fast and it won't be a problem for those roots under the flare. You don't need any top roots visible in the gritty mix, whereas in regular mixes I do keep the "gap" right under the basal flare visible above the soil line.

    I can imagine you probably had to wrap those long roots around the bottom of the container. You could have trimmed the longest ones. Ideally you want to trim them so when they lay outward toward the edge, they don't wrap from there .. so they'll sub-branch more roots before hitting the edge. But I'm not in favor of eliminate large root masses on citrus trees. But the gritty mix, when trees kept watered and fed well, is a very productive place for root growth. Everything Al has preached about the mix being excellent for roots has proven true in my case. The amount of fine rootage developed in one season of gritty mix was beautiful.

  • Loveplants2 8b Virginia Beach, Virginia
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello Everyone...

    Hey Mike...i want to get the "groove going" LOL...i am hoping to get my act together soon...

    My mother is staying with me for awhile...due to a fall...so i have been pretty busy.....but all is fine...

    I want to get into repotting as soon as i can...so i will take pics as soon as that happens...

    Hope all is well with you and your mom..tell her that i said hi...give her a hug for me and let her know that my feet are warm from here kindness...tell her thanks again for me!!!

    AL....LOve the happy dancing flower...LOL...

    Take care everyone... : )

    Laura in VB

  • redshirtcat
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Al & Cebury.

    I do plan to fertigate and feed with every watering with the hose-end sprayer setup I've worked out. The package suggests 1 tsp per gallon once a week for "production."

    I know that I will have to water daily in summer when the temps get up past the 90s - is the rate of 1 tsp per gallon far too much for those situations? Should I cut it back to 1/4 tsp per gallon?

    If I do end up having to go the way of CRF do you think I can scratch it into the top inch or so or will I have to repot them completely?

    I've found the mix to be hard to judge so far in terms of watering requirements. Before switching one of my large trees over it would take about a 1/4 gallon of water every 2-3 days according to my moisture meter. Now it looks like the *vast* majority of that water just drains out into the drain pan. I end up just giving it a tiny sip every day so that I'm not picking up the tree to drain the pan at every watering. Is this normal? Was I just massively over watering before? Or maybe I took off more roots than I thought and it's not using as much anymore? It just feels like I'm using maybe 1/10th the water I was before and even still most of THAT is draining out as well.... kind of scary.

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Great job, and great plants, Redshirt!

    You can reduce the fertilizer rate per application during the summer, yes.

    I, too, use a controlled-release fertilizer in my soils, in addition to Foliage Pro...
    but I don't fertilize at every watering (though I am getting better/more consistent).
    You can certainly scratch it into the upper inches of soil.

    To judge when to water, use a chopstick or kabob skewer stuck deep into the mix.
    When the stick comes out dry and clean, it's time to water. It's suprising how much
    moisture is actually available in the deeper part of the container.


    Josh

  • cebury
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What Josh said!
    And yes, you'll need to water much less. Though still the method of "water until it starts draining from the bottom" instead of just sips. But you'll need to water around the entire top area (ie hold and move the hose around the entire surface), you can't just plop water in one section and have it work it's way around.

  • meyermike_1micha
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Redshirtcat!

    Your plants are beautiful. Way too go! Very nice:-)

    Mike

  • meyermike_1micha
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Laura:

    Yes. i will tell my mom you said hello and give her a hug. She could use one. She has been helping foster children for years and sometimes in can be taxing on her. But there is no stopping here from helping unwanted by children, by their own mothers and fathers.

    Stay nice and toasty until next week when your temps are in the 80's, I think:-)

    Thank you for your thoughtful words of kindness as always.

    Hi Josh and Cedbury!

    Mike:-)

  • redshirtcat
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Responding to you here Mike so as not to hijack the gardenia thread:

    I did not miss a step. I have been watering regularly and the plant is indoors in a sunroom with the supplemental grow light off for a week. The roots were all filled in and I did not let them dry out. I did not use gypsum as I was told not to since I am using FP. The components are the correct size - pictures above in this thread.

    I didn't post sooner as I assumed it was just stress from the repot and the full bare root. The tree is very large for a potted tree and was in a terrible soil and went from that to complete bare root to gritty mix.

    Note that I did not claim the mix is the cause of the demise - I think I did everything correctly except that I did bare root it all at once as opposed to in sections over 3 years/seasons.

    The 4winds plants that I purchased are all doing fine in the mix.

    I think the old tree that was repotted is just in shock it did lose quite a few roots during the bare rooting process (was as gentle as I could be raking - I hardly raked any and then I used a gentle water spray).

    Hopefully it will bounce back - I thought this was pretty normal for a fully bare rooted tropical? Your trees don't lose any leaves when you repot them?

  • meyermike_1micha
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Redshirtcat:

    I never loose leaves due to a re-pot and that is why I questioned it. It just never happened to mine and I was wondering if there was something more to it.

    Maybe that tree is being a stubborn thing for you. I Hope it stops soon. If you are not loosing branches themselves, then I would assume it will come back in full leaf again , and even more so because of the time of year.

    Do you ever expose your trees to sunlight by now? Supplimental light can never compare to good warm sunlight.

    Let us know how is goes. I am happy your others are doing ok. I hope it gets strong for you again:-))

    Mike

  • redshirtcat
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This particular tree is one of my larger trees and they go in and out only once a year to minimize damage getting them in and out.

    The 4winds trees are all small enough to be moved in and out daily which is what I do if the temps are 60 or above.

  • delorean76
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Al, is the ideal pH you mention of 5.0-5.5 a standard range you use for all plants in the gritty? I've seen other threads where 5.0-7.0 was mentioned as ideal also, those were older threads though.

    I'm using a cheap pH test kit that I linked down below. My kitchen faucet that I use to water the houseplants has a reading just above neutral according to that. One tbsp of vinegar in a gallon of water brings it to 6.5. If that's accurate, it looks like I'll need a bit more vinegar.

    Here is a link that might be useful: pH test kit

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Beyond liming the 5:1:1 mix, I rarely give media pH much consideration. Using fast (well-aerated/free-draining) soils in our containers moves container culture even closer to hydroponics (as opposed to growing in the earth) than when using the more common commercially prepared soils based on peat and other composted products; so, if you supply a nutrient in solution, it's going to be available, almost no matter WHAT the pH is, within reason. That's why the pH of the fertilizer solution is much more important than the pH of the medium itself - especially in light of the very low buffering capacity of container media as compared to mineral soils, due in large part to their much lower bulk density.

    Here, you can see the difference in nutrient availability based on pH between mineral soils and container media:

    {{gwi:2916}}

    Al

  • plantcrazed101
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    So what do you suggest to test the water PH? Should I also check out the water quality report too? Where's the best place to find that out? I went to the water site for my city (Austin, Tx) but I'm not sure if I need to narrow by zip code?

    Here was the report:
    Davis WTP Ullrich WTP
    Parameter Units Method Cd T2,T2H T3
    ----------------- ----- --------------- ----------- -----------
    pH SU SM 4500-H B AVG 9.7 AVG 9.6
    MAX 9.8 MAX 9.8
    MIN 9.5 MIN 9.4
    Total Alkalinity MG/L SM 2320 B AVG 61 AVG 67
    MAX 65 MAX 72
    MIN 56 MIN 62
    Total Hardness MG/L SM 2340 C AVG 94 AVG 102
    MAX 99 MAX 106
    MIN 89 MIN 96
    Total Solids MG/L SM 2540 B AVG 188 AVG 198
    MAX 204 MAX 202
    MIN 168 MIN 188
    Total Chlorine MG/L SM 4500-CL F AVG 2.93 AVG 2.61
    Residual MAX 3.25 MAX 2.80
    MIN 2.70 MIN 2.30
    Sulfate MG/L SM 4500-SO4 E AVG 36.4 AVG 34.4
    MAX 37.5 MAX 34.4
    MIN 35.3 MIN 34.4
    Total Organic MG/L SM 5310 C AVG 2.70 AVG 2.60
    Carbon MAX 2.96 MAX 2.73
    MIN 2.45 MIN 2.46
    Conductivity UMHOS/cm SM 2510 B AVG 335 AVG 354
    MAX 335 MAX 354
    MIN 335 MIN 354
    Total UG/L EPA 524.3 THM AVG 28.9 AVG 35.9
    Trihalomethanes MAX 32.4 MAX 42.9
    MIN 24.8 MIN 30.8
    Turbidity NTU SM 2130 B AVG 0.06 AVG 0.04
    MAX 0.10 MAX 0.06
    MIN 0.03 MIN 0.02
    Drinking Water Quality Report
    Date Range: 01-SEP-2013 to 30-SEP-2013

    Now what if I repotted plants from soil that had a bunch of fertilizer salts on the top despite not fertilizing?

    I'm using 5-1-1 mix, should I add dolomite lime or not because the water is too alkaline? Or is the problem that I haven't been fertilizing regularly?! AAAAh! I don't know where to start! lol!

  • oxboy555
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Water pH can be tested with kits purchased from pool supply stores, aquarium stores or online.

    Yes, you should be familiar with some basics found on your local water report. The important items to know are alkalinity, pH, dissolved solids/salt content and nutrient readings (in that order).

    I don't know what this means "a bunch of fertilizer salts on the top despite not fertilizing?"

    If it's a new batch of 5-1-1, adding lime is always advisable to get the pH up as quickly as possible to lessen plant stress. Be aware however that using high-alkaline water consistently to irrigate will quickly take that soil pH past the optimal plateau established by the lime and into the high 7s or even 8s -- especially if you don't flush liberally with each watering.

    That said, if I'm reading your report correctly and alkalinity ppm = mg/L, then your alkalinity in the 60-70 range is actually pretty acceptable despite the high pH.

  • oxboy555
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Correction -- I said "If it's a new batch of 5-1-1, adding lime is always advisable" but that's not necessarily true if growing low pH "lovers" like azaleas or blueberries. I just potted some azaleas in fresh 5-1-1 and passed on the lime altogether. The important caveat is: if you do need to pass on the lime for some reason, make sure you get some Ca and Mg into your pot fairly quickly -- either through the irrigation water, liquid fert or some gypsum/epsom salts added in.

  • plantcrazed101
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Oxboy!

    I'm growing African Violets, which I think prefer a PH of 6.5 or so, there is variation from what I've seen in different sources.

    I had AVs that had orange crystals forming on the top of the soil, the "fertilizer salts" of the pots. These pots were SOLO cups so they were pretty small. I had them wicked in a self-watering system so I think the salts built up. What's strange is that I would repot the babies with no salts and then a bunch of salts would just pop up in the middle of their crowns! I have no idea why considering I added no fertilizer when I repotted them.

    In an effort to narrow down variables, I'm trying both the 5-1-1 mix (if I can get it the right size without a screen!) and LECA pebbles as a seperate medium that I will try as well so I'm just dealing with the PH of the tap water.

    I will then have another set of plants with just Reverse Osmosis water, LECA pebbles and dyna-gro, so I can also see how those do.

    This post was edited by plantcrazed101 on Wed, Dec 4, 13 at 16:46

  • plantcrazed101
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh and also,

    How do you know what is normal for the amount of alkalinity, salts, nutrients, etc. and how your water compares?

    What are the averages that don't affect growth/ph/etc versus the extremes of different nutrients?

  • old_eagle
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have two questions.
    First, Al suggests flushing the salts etc out of potted plants. How often?

    Second, a Ph meter is suggested. I found many online from under $2.00 to $outrageous. Any preferences?

  • oxboy555
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In general, every month or two. You can probably get away with one good flush as spring warms up and one at the end of summer. Keep in mind there is such thing as over-flushing, meaning you flush out your fertilizer before it has a chance to be taken up.

    The only time I'd use a pH meter in a container is with a peaty, heavy potting soil. Good news - you'll get a more accurate reading in this mix than with 5-1-1 or Gritty. Bad news - you have bigger things to worry about than pH in a peat-pudding mix. If you really need a pH meter, the more expensive the better...I would think.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I flush the soil every time I water by using enough water so at least 15-20% of the total volume of water I applied exits the drain. This not only flushes accumulating salts from the soil immediately, it's like pushing the fertilizer 'reset' button. This can be especially important if you're using a fertilizer that is nowhere near the ratio at which the plant actually uses the nutrients. Skewed fertilizer ratios in soils can be severely limiting, even if the o/a level of fertility (EC/TDS) isn't dangerously high. Yes, you'll need to fertilize more frequently, but fertilizer is very cheap on a per dose basis.

    I've never owned a pH meter. You're not going to be able to actually control pH other than by the simplest methods - like adding vinegar, citric acid, or maybe sulfuric acid to your irrigation water on a regular basis. Try pH strips to test your water, then to see how much acid or base it takes to bring a given volume of fresh tap water to a pH level around 5.2-5.7, then add the appropriate amount of acidification to your water & use that water to irrigate.

    Al