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rooster_family

Shredded Cedar Al's Mix

rooster_family
14 years ago

New Member and a Total Newbie. Attempted my first vegetable garden last year with miserable results. So bad my usually very encouraging wife wanted me to take up a new hobby. I have done my best to educate myself and this forum has been a great resource.

Question: Like others I have had trouble finding pine or fir bark fines for Al's mix

I have found shredded cedar. Is that an acceptable substitute? What are the cons of using shredded cedar?

thx,

Eric

Comments (25)

  • badsmerf
    14 years ago

    There has been questions about this in the past if you do some meticulous searching. I know it is pretty undesirable to use cedar, especially the actual wood. You will have to wait for Al or someone else to provide the science behind it. Once spring rolls around it will be easier to find this stuff.

  • jojosplants
    14 years ago

    Hi Eric!
    It is so nice to meet someone else here in Tucson! Welcome neighbor. :)

    I too have heard that the cedar isnt that great.

    Am also in the process of learning what is behind Al's mixes. :)

    I found pine bark fines and turface at a local John Deere dealer on Ina Road.

    I will get the information and post some pictures here a little later today.

    I think it's great your giving Al's mixes a try and another year of gardening...;)

    I too have had endless plants fail in containers here, so will be trying Als this year, I have read so many good things and seen so many pictures!

    I will be back a little later.

    JoJo

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    14 years ago

    I haven't used cedar mulch to grow in, so I can't comment on that practice directly, but I can say that because the tannins, as well as terpenoid and phenolic compounds cedar is rich in are known to be allelopathic (inhibit growth) to many other plants, I have discounted the likelihood that it would be a suitable choice for me.

    Al

  • rooster_family
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    A big no on Cedar.

    Hey JoJo,

    Thanks for the nice welcome. We'll have to stay in touch.
    I'll give the John Deere dealer a call. I didn't realize John Deere dealers stocked garden products. I did end up finding fine fir bark at Mesquite Valley Growers but it is bloody expensive. $15 for 1 cu ft.

    Eric

  • jojosplants
    14 years ago

    Good Morning Eric,
    Its my understanding that fir bark is expensive no matter where you look.

    Mesquite Valley Growers is the other side of the world for me. LOL! I'm over by "A" Mountian.

    Here is some of the Info I have for you. Any questions, please yell!

    Branch 351
    Address 5390 W. Ina Road
    Tucson AZ 85743 USA
    Phone 520-572-7066
    Fax 520-572-0959
    Email awhite@johndeerelandscapes.com
    Distance Same Town/City

    The gentleman that helped me was John. Yes, sounds corny doesn't it. :)

    I got the pine bark fines and turface from John deere. They both had to be shipped in to them from out of state, so it took about a week. But no extra charge to me. He did order one or two extra, so maybe he still has some.

    The pine was about $5 a bag if I remember correctly. (can't find my receipt) Pine Mulch Fines. 2 cf.

    Turface all sport~ 50 lb bag, I belive was 13.99

    I found one other brand at Home Depot that some here are using, but I wasn't too impressed with it. Has lots of lg. chunks. Called Earthgro Ground Cover Bark. It could be used, but needs sifted and the really large pieces removed. So my bag will be mulch. he he..

    Here are some photos...

    Al~~ Please yell if I don't have the right stuff from John Deere.. you already said what I had from HD was good, but like I said, it was a lot of work... I think the pine from John deere is much better. :) IMO...

    Pine Bark Mulch from Home Depot

    {{gwi:5060}}

    Pine Bark mulch Fines from John Deere

    {{gwi:5062}}

    HD mulch on left John Deere Fines on Right

    {{gwi:5063}}

    Turface from John Deere

    {{gwi:5064}}

    I havent had much luck finding the grit yet, so am getting by with Decomposed Granite I got from Lowes. I will hit the road this weekend and just go to feed stores looking for the grit. It seems sometimes calling around, people just don't know what you are talking about.

    So,
    I hope this is helping you get off to a good start!

    There's tons of reading here and Al is wonderful to work with. He's got to be one of the most patient people I know and so giving! Don't hesitate to ask questions! There are several others here that know his methods well too!

    I'm including a link that Al gave me when I was starting out. Its a ton of reading but worth every minute of it!

    Talk to you soon!
    JoJo

    P.S. Love the name.. Its the same as my brothers..;)

    Here is a link that might be useful: Container Soils

  • meyermike_1micha
    14 years ago

    Jojo........I think you struck GOLD on your bark fines..

    You say Al is helpful. Look at you go girl!

    You are a blessing here too..

    Mike..:-)

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    14 years ago

    Lol - Look at you! You're way to kind, Jodi.

    The stuff from the JD dealer looks best to me.

    Al

  • jojosplants
    14 years ago

    Mike & Al~
    You guys are great! Thank You!..:) I have great teachers..:) It's fun and easy to learn if your hearts in it. And having teachers like you who put your heart in it makes it easy.

    I too love the pine bark fines I got from John Deere! I need the HD bark for mulch no matter what, so it wasn't a waste. :)

    Eric,
    Hope to hear from you soon!

    JoJo

  • jojosplants
    14 years ago

    Eric,
    John Deere(John) just called me. He is having trouble getting ahold of you. Said he may have your phone # wrong.

    You can email me through my page, or just call him again. :)

    JoJo

  • rooster_family
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    Joanne,
    The power of the web, I love it.

    I just talked with him and I ordered 7 bags (2 cf/bag) at $4 per. Thanks for helping me out. I owe you some pictures of my progress.

    thx,
    Eric

  • cebury
    14 years ago

    That's a great price for the bark if there isn't too much loss from sifting (i.e. majority is the right particle size). Good luck.

  • jojosplants
    14 years ago

    Eric,
    This is great! I was so surprised when they called today! LOL! Me and John got to chatting when I ordered mine. He's great and today just goes to show they have awsome customer service!

    I hope your order gets here quick!

    Enjoy!
    And yes, please do share some pics and news along the way.

    Oh, Eric, can you email me, I have a little something else I'd like to talk to you about, garden related, and not take up others time here.

    cebury,
    This bark is pretty good. It wont need sifted for the 5-1-1. and will turn out pretty good after being sifted. The pics above are not sifted.

    You can see the home depot stuff has more junk in it, and huge chunks of bark.

    JoJo

  • meyermike_1micha
    14 years ago

    Hi everyone...I hope you are all happy tonight..

    This is for Eric..

    I wouldn't use shredded Cedar if you paid me. Been there done that. I found my plants lacking nitrogen as soon as the shavings started to break down, which was very quickly, my soilless mix stayed wet far too long, and the cedar shavings broke down faster than lighting compared to bark. I actually ordered two huge bags of it for the purpose of using in a soilless mix, and killed many plants at one point through suffocation..I threw the remaining bags into my garden. Thank God I found this site and AL, the master of the gritty mix and the 5.1.1 mix.

    If he doesn't recommend you substitute it, then believe me, it won't work..

    Mike..:-)

  • jodik_gw
    14 years ago

    Cedar would be something I'd avoid at all cost... especially if you have pets. There is a chemical in cedar that causes harm to the kidneys and other interior organs. Constant contact will eventually cause the kidneys to shut down.

    Yes... I know it is commonly sold as bedding for dogs and other small animals... ever wonder why hamsters and gerbils don't live very long? As a veteran canine breeder, I do not recommend cedar products for use around any animal... and as a gardener, I'd steer clear of it for use in a medium.

    I'd stick with pine/fir bark for my medium mix... and for bedding small pets, use aspen... it's almost dust free, absorbent, and doesn't cause harm.

  • ashley_plant_addict
    14 years ago

    Hi everyone!

    Ok, so I've been having trouble finding pine bark fines. Once I saw the photos from JoJo and where she got it, I think I'll be able to gather most of the ingredients. :)

    JoJo, you got both the pine bark fines and turface from John Deere Landscaping correct? Did you sift through it?

    I'll need to find epsom salt, gypsom? and granite.

    Let me know if I'm on the right track. :)
    Thanks!
    Ashley

  • jojosplants
    14 years ago

    Hello Ashley!

    I was telling hubby I was going to write you later with this info.. Looks like you beat me to it! ROFL!!!

    Yes, I got both the pine fines and turface from John deer.

    Here's a copy/paste from another thread.

    ********************************************************
    ""I posted this in another thread but I figure it had relevance here...
    A national landscaping company called John Deere Landscapes carries both the Turface and Pine Bark Fines. The Turface is marketed by John Deere under the name of Turface All Sport. I spoke with Profile Products the manufacturer of the Turface line and they assured me that the Turface All Sport was actually the Turface MVP repackaged specifically for John Deere. John Deere Landscapes has a website you can check to find a location near you.""

    ********************************************************

    Here's the web ...

    http://www.johndeerelandscapes.com/

    You can search the web to see if one is near you...

    I got the Epsom salt and lime at Home Depot, in the section with fertalizers.. The lime is a 5 lb. bag, organic, and was all I could find.

    White bag/ Espoma brand/ Organic Traditions All Natural Nuetralizer Garden Lime is what it reads.

    I got the gypsom at Home Depot or Lowes, can't remember.. and it's like a 30 lb. bag... Skip that!! I will send you some in your box!

    Epsom salt can also be found at any Drug Store.. Its in a cardboard carton, and sold as a foot soak...:)

    Granite has been a night mare for me! Most find it in a feed store, sold as a poultry grit (turkeys) I belive. I have called 15-20 here and no one has it.. I found some granite, but am having to sift out the small stuff..

    Josh subs Quartz gravel for granite, which I am going to try and find.

    I will need to sift the bark to get the bigger pieces out.

    Any more questions, just give us a yell! See ya around...;)

    JoJo

    Here is a link that might be useful: Supplies by Starte/Region

  • meyermike_1micha
    14 years ago

    Hi Ash:

    Fantastic! You decided to go the gritty way. I remember you thinking twice about using it because you were afraid if the watering thing.
    Remember I answered that for you? You decided to choose what was best for your plants and not convienent for you, and I am very proud of you! Bravo.

    Jojo, I am proud of you too...! Look at you helping many here, and the enthusiasim you have for giving a shot..

    I can help you get some grit, just e-mail ok..Hugs

    Mike..:-)

  • ashley_plant_addict
    14 years ago

    Hey JoJo! Haha!Yeah I've been poking around the forums to see what we've got as far as Al's mixes. I think there is one close to me! I looked it up one google and found one close to my work. Thanks for adding Gypsom, I don't know much about other fertilizer and other components that help plant life. All the ingredients have pretty much been a nightmare for me! Haha but with your help and the help of others, I'm sure I'll have this mix down soon! :)

    Hey Mike! Yeah I remember you helped try to understand the soil more and how I need to help the plants not at my own convienence. Thanks! I'm proud of JoJo too! I know we are both learning a lot here. :)

    Any clue as to an online source where I can buy grit? It I can't find it then I'll start to look for quartz as well.

    Ashley

  • jojosplants
    14 years ago

    Good Morning!

    Ashley,
    I haven't heard of an online source. It would probably cost a fortune to ship to. It's probably going to take some digging to find it. Did you look through the link I gave above for supplies by region?

    Mike~ Ashley ! Thank you both! Now enough before you have me blushing..;)

    Mike, will write soon.. puter is acting up alot lately!

    Ashley~
    Yes, I did have to sift the pine and the turface.

    The pine, to get the right side for the gritty mix, and the turface to get the really little stuff out and dust.

    Eric~~ You here? How are things going for you!? I hope good!! It's spring! Time to get things in.. I got a ton of seeds yesterday..

    Take care everyone!!

    JoJo

  • meyermike_1micha
    14 years ago

    Hi Al!

    Just let me ask you a question so that everyone is on the same page here about the turface and the gritty mix....I think everyone should get a rough idea on the sifting process of it, done correctly....

    If the gritty mix is made exactly the way you make it,like the sample you sent me, an exact repluca, how much turface from a full bag should be left behind that is perfect for the gritty mix..

    What got me thinking is when Jojo said, that 1/4 of it was usable...By the time I am done sifting a full bag, I end up with 3/4 that is usable....Am I not sifting the finer particles enough, or is Jojo sifting to many good size particles out?

    Thank you..;-)

    Hello everyone..:-)

    Mike

  • ashley_plant_addict
    14 years ago

    Hey JoJo, your right, shipping would be a fortune. I'll keep on keeping on! haha! I think I might have found a lanscaping company that might sell it, granted it'll be in bulk. I don't really have the space for all of it so hopefully I can get smaller bags. I should look into getting a big tub to hold my mix when I make it.

    I get seeds and bulbs too so I'll post a new thread about what everyone will be planting unless there is already one out there. :)

    Have a great day everyone! :)

    Ashley

  • ashley_plant_addict
    14 years ago

    Hey Mike! :) I just missed your post and this darn site won't let me repost for a while...humph.
    Great question, Mike! Since I have not started yet, this will be a good thing to know.

    I'm also debabting the 5:1:1 mix for some of my other plants, such as my brugmansia, sheff and some other plants. Also possibly for my elephant ears but since they like lots of water I'm not sure if this would work well. What do you think?

    Ashley

  • ashley_plant_addict
    14 years ago

    Hey Mike! :) I just missed your post and this darn site won't let me repost for a while...humph.
    Great question, Mike! Since I have not started yet, this will be a good thing to know.

    I'm also debabting the 5:1:1 mix for some of my other plants, such as my brugmansia, sheff and some other plants. Also possibly for my elephant ears but since they like lots of water I'm not sure if this would work well. What do you think?

    Ashley

  • jojosplants
    14 years ago

    Hi Mike!
    I was referring to the decomposed granite... Not the turface. sorry for the confusion...:) The bags of decomposed granite are alot of sand, and large stones! And I think that is from a different thread(but coffee hasn't kicked in)...LOL!

    I havent sifted my turface yet...:)

    But good question none the less...

    Ashley,
    I've read the 5-1-1 holds more moisture. I too have elephant ears I need to get potted up..:)
    And the 5-1-1 is used alot for annuals.. and gritty for woody platns..

    Al just told me today, 5-1-1 doesn't need the pine bark sifted.. So it's easy to make...:)

    Also, I got a granite from a rock and gravel yard.. It's called 1/4 " minus chat, I belive..

    sold by the ton or the bucket.. ROFL!

    I got 2 buckets to try, and so far only about 1/4 of it is usable after screening it..:( It has larger stones like pea gravel..

    So, today I am going to call around about silica sand.

    Well be in touch!
    Have a great day all!!

    JoJo

  • sammiejunkmail
    12 years ago

    Hey there I am in Tucson, also and I found Crop Production Services on Highway drive has many horticulture products that are better quality than home depot. Try there for some of the supplies mentioned in this thread.

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