JOIN NOW LOG IN
iVillage GardenWeb iVillage GardenWeb THE INTERNET'S GARDEN & HOME COMMUNITY ADVERTISEMENT
Blogs Forums Photo Galleries Ask The Experts Tools & Directories        
Return to the Container Gardening Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

Posted by goodhumusman (My Page) on
Thu, Feb 26, 09 at 12:44

I recently joined the forum and discovered Al's 5-1-1 Mix, but I had several questions that Al was kind enough to answer by email. I also found the answers to other questions in several different threads. I thought it would be useful to organize all of the info in one place so that we could have easy access to it. 98% of the following has been cut/pasted from Al's postings, and I apologize in advance if I have somehow misquoted him or taken his ideas out of proper context. The only significant addition from another source is the Cornell method of determining porosity, which I thought would be germane. I have used a question and answer format, using many questions from other members, and I apologize for not giving them proper credit. Thanks to all who contributed to this information. Now, here's Al:

Tapla's 5-1-1 Mix

5 parts pine bark fines
1 part sphagnum peat
1-2 parts perlite
garden lime
controlled release fertilizer (not really necessary)
a micro-nutrient source (seaweed emulsion, Earthjuice, Micro-max, STEM, etc,)

Many friends & forum folk grow in this 5-1-1 mix with very good results. I use it for all my garden display containers. It is intended for annual and vegetable crops in containers. This soil is formulated with a focus on plentiful aeration, which we know has an inverse relationship w/water retention. It takes advantage of particles, the size of which are at or just under the size that would guarantee the soil retains no perched water. (If you have not already read Al's treatise on Water in Container Soils, this would be a good time to do so.) In simple terms: Plants that expire because of drainage problems either die of thirst because the roots have rotted and can no longer take up water, or they starve/"suffocate" because there is insufficient air at the root zone to ensure normal water/nutrient uptake and root function.

I grow in highly-aerated soils with the bulk of the particles in the 1/16"-1/8" size, heavily favoring the larger particles, because we know that perched water levels decrease as particle size increases, until finally, as particle size reaches just under 1/8" the perched water table disappears entirely.

Ideal container soils will have a minimum of 60-75% total porosity. This means that when dry, in round numbers, nearly 70% of the total volume of soil is air. The term 'container capacity' is a hort term that describes the saturation level of soils after the soil is saturated and at the point where it has just stopped draining - a fully wetted soil. When soils are at container capacity, they should still have in excess of 30% air porosity. Roughly, a great soil will have about equal parts of solid particles, water, and air when the soil is fully saturated.

This is Cornell's method of determining the various types of porosity:

To ensure sufficient media porosity, it is essential to determine total porosity, aeration porosity, and water-holding porosity. Porosity can be determined through the following procedure:

* With drainage holes sealed in an empty container, fill the container and record the volume of water required to reach the top of the container. This is the container volume.

* Empty and dry the plugged container and fill it with the growing media to the top of the container.

* Irrigate the container medium slowly until it is saturated with water. Several hours may be required to reach the saturation point, which can be recognized by glistening of the medium's surface.

* Record the total volume of water necessary to reach the saturation point as the total pore volume.

* Unplug the drainage holes and allow the water to freely drain from the container media into a pan for several hours.

* Measure the volume of water in the pan after all free water has completed draining. Record this as the aeration pore volume.

* Calculate total porosity, aeration porosity, and water-holding porosity using the following equations (Landis, 1990):

* Total porosity = total pore volume / container volume
* Aeration porosity = aeration pore volume / container volume
* Water-holding porosity = total porosity - aeration porosity

The keys to why I like my 3-1-1 mix:

It's adjustable for water retention.
The ingredients are readily available to me.
It's simple - 3 basic ingredients - equal portions.
It allows nearly 100% control over the nutritional regimen.
It will not collapse - lasts longer than what is prudent between repots.
It is almost totally forgiving of over-watering while retaining good amounts of water between drinks.
It is relatively inexpensive.

Q. Why do you use pine bark fines? Bark fines of fir, hemlock or pine, are excellent as the primary component of your soils. The lignin contained in bark keeps it rigid and the rigidity provides air-holding pockets in the root zone far longer than peat or compost mixes that too quickly break down to a soup-like consistency. Conifer bark also contains suberin, a lipid sometimes referred to as nature’s preservative. Suberin, more scarce as a presence in sapwood products and hardwood bark, dramatically slows the decomposition of conifer bark-based soils. It contains highly varied hydrocarbon chains and the microorganisms that turn peat to soup have great difficulty cleaving these chains.

Q. What is the correct size of the fines? In simple terms: Plants that expire because of drainage problems either die of thirst because the roots have rotted and can no longer take up water, or they starve/"suffocate" because there is insufficient air at the root zone to insure normal water/nutrient uptake and root function.Pine bark fines are partially composted pine bark. Fines are what are used in mixes because of the small particle size. There will be a naturally occurring "perched water table" (PWT) in containers when soil particulate size is under about .125 (1/8) inch, so best would be particulates in the 1/16 - 3/16 size range with the 1/16-1/8 size range favored.

Note that there is no sand or compost in the soils I use. Sand, as most of you think of it, can improve drainage in some cases, but it reduces aeration by filling valuable macro-pores in soils. Unless sand particle size is fairly uniform and/or larger than about ½ BB size I leave it out of soils. Compost is too unstable for me to consider using in soils. The small amount of micro-nutrients it supplies can easily be delivered by one or more of a number of chemical or organic sources.

Q. Do you use partially composted pine bark fines? Yes - preferred over fresh fines, which are lighter in color.

Q. I found some Scotchman's Choice Organic Compost, which is made of pine bark fines averaging about 1/8" in size, and, after adding all ingredients, the 5-1-1 Mix had a total porosity of 67% and an aeration porosity of 37%. Is that all right? Yes, that is fine.

Q. What kind of lime do you use? Dolomitic.

Q. What amount of lime should I add if I used 10 gal of pine bark fines and the corresponding amount of the other ingredients? @ 5:1:1, you'll end up with about 12 gallons of soil (the whole is not equal to the sum of the parts when you're talking about soils), so I would use about 10-12 Tbsp or 2/3-3/4 cup of lime.

Q. What grade of coarseness for the lime? Most is sold as garden lime, which is usually prilled powder. Prilling makes it easier to use in drop & broadcast spreaders. The prills dissolve quickly. The finer the powder the quicker the reactive phase is finished. Much of the Ca and Mg will be unavailable until the media pH equalizes so the plant can assimilate the residual elements. Large pieces of lime really extend the duration of the reactive phase.

Q. Does this mean that I need to make up the soil in advance? Yes. 2 weeks or so should be enough time to allow for the reaction phase to be complete & residual Ca/Mg to become more readily available from the outset .

Q. During those 2 weeks, do I need to keep turning it and moistening it? No

Q. Can I go ahead and fill my 3-gal. containers, stack them 3-high, and cover the top one to prevent moisture loss during the waiting period? Something like that would be preferred.

Q. The perlite I use has a large amount of powder even though it is called coarse. Do I need to sift it to get rid of the powder? Not unless it REALLY has a lot - then, the reason wouldn't be because of issues with particle size - it would be because you had to use larger volumes to achieve adequate drainage & larger volumes bring with it the possibility of Fl toxicity for some plants that are fluoride intolerant.

Q. What about earthworm castings (EWC)? I think 10% is a good rule of thumb for the total volume of fine particles. I try to limit peat use to about 10-15% of soil volume & just stay away from those things that rob aeration & promote water retention beyond a minimal perched water table. If you start adding 10% play sand, 10% worm castings, 10% compost, 10% peat, 10% topsoil, 10% vermiculite to a soil, before long you'll be growing in something close to a pudding-like consistency.

Q. Do you drench the mix with fertilized water before putting in containers? No - especially if you incorporate a CRF. It will have lots of fertilizer on it's surface & the soil could already be high in solubles. If you added CRF, wait until you've watered and flushed the soil a couple of times. If you didn't use CRF, you can fertilize with a weak solution the first time you water after the initial planting irrigation.

Q. How much of the micronutrients should I add if I am going to be fertilizing with Foliage Pro 9-3-6, which has all the micronutrients in it? You won't need any additional supplementation as long as you lime.
Q. Just to make sure I understand, are you saying I don't need to use Foliage Pro 9-3-6 until after the initial watering right after planting even if I don't use a CRF? And no additional micronutrients? That's right - on both counts.

Q. Do I need to moisten the peat moss before mixing with the pine bark fines? It helps, yes.

Selections from Notes on Choosing a Fertilizer

A) Plant nutrients are dissolved in water
B) The lower the nutrient concentration, the easier it is for the plant to absorb water and the nutrients dissolved in the water - distilled water is easier for plants to absorb than tap water because there is nothing dissolved in distilled water
C) The higher the nutrient content, the more difficult it is for plants to absorb water and the nutrients dissolved in water
D) To maximize plant vitality, we should supply adequate amounts of all the essential nutrients w/o using concentrations so high that they impede water and nutrient uptake.

All that is in the "Fertilizer Thread" I posted a while back.

Q. Do you use the Dyna-Gro Foliage Pro 9-3-6 exclusively throughout the life of the plant, or change to something else for the flowering/fruiting stage? I use lots of different fertilizers, but if I had to choose only one, it would likely be the FP 9-3-6. It really simplifies things. There are very few plants that won't respond very favorably to this fertilizer. I use fast soils that drain freely & I fertilize at EVERY watering, and it works extremely well.

If you are using a soil that allows you to water freely at every watering, you cannot go wrong by watering weakly weekly, and you can water at 1/8 the recommended dose at every watering if you wish with chemical fertilizers.

Q. What about the "Bloom Booster" fertilizers? To induce more prolific flowering, a reduced N supply will have more and better effect than the high P bloom formulas. When N is reduced, it slows vegetative growth without reducing photosynthesis. Since vegetative growth is limited by a lack of N, and the photosynthetic machinery continues to turn out food, it leaves an expendable surplus for the plant to spend on flowers and fruit. There are no plants I know of that use anywhere near the amount of P as they do N (1/6 is the norm). It makes no sense to me to have more P available than N unless you are targeting a VERY specific growth pattern; and then the P would still be applied in a reasonable ratio to K.

Somewhere along the way, we curiously began to look at fertilizers as miraculous assemblages of growth drugs, and started interpreting the restorative effect (to normal growth) fertilizers have as stimulation beyond what a normal growth rate would be if all nutrients were adequately present in soils. It’s no small wonder that we come away with the idea that there are ’miracle concoctions’ out there and often end up placing more hope than is reasonable in them.

What I'm pointing out is that fertilizers really should not be looked at as something that will make your plant grow abnormally well - beyond its genetic potential . . . Fertilizers do not/can not stimulate super growth, nor are they designed to. All they can do is correct nutritional deficiencies so plants can grow normally.

Q. Should I use organic ferts or chemical ferts in containers? Organic fertilizers do work to varying degrees in containers, but I would have to say that delivery of the nutrients can be very erratic and unreliable. The reason is that nutrient delivery depends on the organic molecules being broken down in the gut of micro-organisms, and micro-organism populations are boom/bust, varying widely in container culture.

Some of the things affecting the populations are container soil pH, moisture levels, nutrient levels, soil composition, compaction/aeration levels ..... Of particular importance is soil temperatures. When container temperatures rise too high, microbial populations diminish. Temps much under 55* will slow soil biotic activity substantially, reducing or halting delivery of nutrients.

I do include various formulations of fish emulsion in my nutrient program at certain times of the year, but I never rely on them, choosing chemical fertilizers instead. Chemical fertilizers are always immediately available for plant uptake & the results of your applications are much easier to quantify.

Q. Should I feed the plants every time I water? In a word, yes. I want to keep this simple, so I’ll just say that the best water absorption occurs when the level of solutes in soil water is lowest, and in the presence of good amounts of oxygen. Our job, because you will not find a sufficient supply of nutrients in a container soil, is to provide a solution of dissolved nutrients that affords the plant a supply in the adequate to luxury range, yet still makes it easy for the plant to take up enough water to be well-hydrated and free of drought stress. All we need to do is supply nutrients in approximately the same ratio as plants use them, and in adequate amounts to keep them in the adequate to luxury range at all times. Remember that we can maximize water uptake by keeping the concentrations of solutes low, so a continual supply of a weak solution is best. Nutrients don’t just suddenly appear in large quantities in nature, so the low and continual dose method most closely mimics the nutritional supply Mother Nature offers. If you decide to adopt a "fertilize every time you water" approach, most liquid fertilizers can be applied at ¾ to 1 tsp per gallon for best results.

The system is rather self regulating if fertilizer is applied in low concentrations each time you water, even with houseplants in winter. As the plant’s growth slows, so does its need for both water and nutrients. Larger plants and plants that are growing robustly will need more water and nutrients, so linking nutrient supply to the water supply is a win/win situation all around.

You can tell you've watered too much (or too little - the response is the same - a drought response) when leaves start to turn yellow or you begin to see nutritional deficiencies created by poor root metabolism (usually N and Ca are first evident). You can prevent overwatering by A) testing the soil deep in the container with a wood dowel ... wet & cool - do not water, dry - water. B) feeling the wick & only watering when it's dry C) feel the soil at the drain hole & only water when it feels dry there.

Soils feel dry to our touch when they still have 40-45% moisture content. Plants, however, can still extract water from soils until they dry down to about 25-30%, so there is still around a 15% cush in that plants can still absorb considerable moisture after soils first feel dry to us.

Q. When you water/fertilize, do you give it enough that 10% leaches out the bottom each time? Yes, I try to do that at every watering. Remember that as salts accumulate, both water and nutrient uptake is made more difficult and finally impaired or made impossible in severe cases. Your soils should always allow you to water so that at least 10-15% of the total volume of water applied passes through the soil and out the drain hole to be discarded. This flushes the soil and carries accumulating solutes out the drain hole. In addition, each thorough watering forces stale gases from the soil. CO2 accumulation in heavy soils is very detrimental to root health, but you usually can't apply water in volume enough to force these gases from the soil. Open soils allow free gas exchange at all times.

Q. Should I elevate my pots? The container will not drain the same % of water if it's sitting in a puddle, but the % won't be particularly significant. What will be significant is: if water (in a puddle) is able to make contact with the soil in the container through surface tension and/or capillarity, it will "feed" and prolong the saturated conditions of any PWT that might be in the container. However, if water can soak in or if it will flow away from the containers, there's no advantage to elevating when you're not using a wick.

Q. I like a pH of about 5.7. Is that about right? That's a good number, but you won't have any way of maintaining it in your soil w/o some sophisticated equipment. I never concern myself with media pH. That doesn't mean you should ignore water pH, though. It (water pH) affects the solubility of fertilizers; and generally speaking, the higher the water pH, the lower the degree of nutrient solubility.

Q. How do you repot? Some plants do not take to root-pruning well (palms, eg), but the vast majority of them REALLY appreciate the rejuvenational properties of major root work. I'm not at all delicate in my treatment of rootage when it comes time to repot (completely different from potting-up). Usually I chop or saw the bottom 1/2-2/3 of the root mass off, bare-root the plant, stick it back in the same pot with ALL fresh soil, use a chopstick to move soil into all the spaces/pockets between roots, water/fertilize well & put in the shade for a week to recover. I should mention that this procedure is most effective on plants with woody roots, which most quickly grow to be inefficient as they lignify, thicken, and fill the pot. Those plants with extremely fibrous root systems are easier to care for. For those, I usually saw off the bottom 1/2 - 2/3 of the roots, work a chopstick through the remaining mat of roots, removing a fair amount of soil, prune around the perimeter & repot in fresh, well-aerated soil.

I find that time after time, plants treated in this fashion sulk for a week or two and then put on a huge growth spurt (when repotted in spring or summer). Growth INVARIABLY surpasses what it would have been if the plant was allowed to languish in it's old, root-bound haunts. Potting up is a temporary way to rejuvenate a plant, but if you look ate a long-term graph of plants continually potted-up, you will see continual decline with little spurts of improved vitality at potting-up time. This stress/strain on plants that are potted-up only, eventually takes its toll & plants succumb. There is no reason most houseplants shouldn't live for years and years, yet we often content ourselves with the 'revolving door replacement' of our plants when just a little attention to detail would allow us to call the same plant our friend - often for the rest of our lives if we prefer.

Q. Is there any rule of thumb as to how often to root prune? I'm going to answer as if you included 'repotting' in your question. There is no hard, fast rule here. Some of you grow plants strictly for the blooms, and some plants produce more abundant blooms in containers when they are stressed in some manner. Often, that stress is in the form of keeping them root-bound. I'll talk about maintaining a plant's vitality & let you work out how you want to handle the degree of stress you wish to subject them to, in order to achieve your goals. Before I go on, I'd like to say that I use stress techniques too, to achieve a compact, full plant, and to slow growth of a particularly attractive plant - to KEEP it attractive. ;o) The stress of growing a plant tight can be useful to a degree, but at some point, there will be diminishing returns.

When you need to repot to correct declining vitality:

1) When the soil has collapsed/compacted, or was too water-retentive from the time you last potted-up or repotted. You can identify this condition by soil that remains wet for more than a few days, or by soil that won't take water well. If you water a plant and the soil just sits on top of the soil w/o soaking in, the soil has collapsed/compacted. There is one proviso though: you must be sure that the soil is wet before you assess this condition. Soils often become hydrophobic (water repellent) and difficult to rewet, especially when using liquid organic fertilizers like fish/seaweed emulsions. Make sure this effect is not what you're witnessing by saturating the soil thoroughly & then assessing how fast the water moves downward through the soil. The soils I grow in are extremely fast and water disappears into the mix as soon as it's applied. If it takes more than 30 seconds for a large volume of water to disappear from the surface of the soil, you are almost certainly compromising potential vitality.

I'll talk about the potential vitality for just a sec. Plants will grow best in a damp soil with NO perched water. That is NO saturated layer of water at the bottom of the pot. Roots begin to die a very short time after being subjected to anaerobic conditions. They regenerate again as soon as air returns to the soil. This cyclic death/regeneration of roots steals valuable energy from the plant that might well have been employed to increase o/a biomass, and/or produce flowers and fruit. This is the loss of potential vitality I refer to.

2) When the plant is growing under tight conditions and has stopped extending, it is under strain, which will eventually lead to its death. "Plants must grow to live. Any plant that is not growing is dying." Dr. Alex Shigo Unless there are nutritional issues, plants that have stopped extending and show no growth when they should be coming into a period of robust growth usually need repotting. You can usually confirm your suspicions/diagnosis by looking for rootage "crawling" over the soil surface and/or growing out of the drain hole, or by lifting the plant from its pot & examining the root mass for encircling roots - especially fat roots at the container's edge. You'll be much less apt to find these types of roots encircling inner container perimeter in well-aerated soils because the roots find the entire soil mass hospitable. Roots are opportunistic and will be found in great abundance at the outside edge of the soil mass in plantings with poor drainage & soggy soil conditions - they're there looking for air.

3) When the soil is so compacted & water retentive that you must water in sips and cannot fully flush the soil at each watering for fear of creating conditions that will cause root rot. This isn't to say you MUST flush the soil at every watering, but the soil should drain well enough to ALLOW you to water this way whenever you prefer. This type of soil offers you the most protection against over-watering and you would really have to work hard at over-fertilizing in this type of soil. It will allow you to fertilize with a weak solution at every watering - even in winter if you prefer.

Incidentally, I reject the frequent anecdotal evidence that keeping N in soils at adequacy levels throughout the winter "forces" growth or "forces weak growth". Plants take what they need and leave the rest. While there could easily be the toxicity issues associated with too much fertilizer in soils due to a combination of inappropriate watering practices, inappropriate fertilizing practices, and an inappropriate soil, it's neither N toxicity NOR the presence of adequate N in soils that causes weak growth, it's low light levels.

Q. Is there any rule of thumb as to how often to remove and replace the old soil? Yes - every time you repot.

As always, I hope that those who read what I say about soils will ultimately take with them the idea that the soil is the foundation of every container planting & has effects that reach far beyond the obvious, but there is a snatch of lyrics from an old 70's song that might be appropriate: "... just take what you need and leave the rest ..." ;o)


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

You are going to curse this forum's lack of an edit feature ;)

You wrote:

The keys to why I like my 3-1-1 mix:

It's adjustable for water retention.
The ingredients are readily available to me.
It's simple - 3 basic ingredients - equal portions.

There is a 5-1-1 ratio mix and a gritty mix which is a 1-1-1 ratio. There is no 3-1-1 mix and it can't be a 3-1-1 mix if the 3 ingredients are in equal portions :)

I think it is a great effort to distill much of the information into a single thread though.


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

THANKYOU!
Thanks for what you did!


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

Good catch, justaguy. The whole thread is about one mix, so I hope no one will get confused.

YW, meyermike, but the real thanks go to Al.


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

Thanks for clarifying that, justaguy2. I was a little confused by the 3-1-1 statement.

This was a good summary and helped me a lot. Thanks for taking the time to put this together. Today, I purchased the pine bark fines, perlite, & sphagnum peat. I'm going to use it for growing roses in containers, so I may not use the lime. I'm not sure the roses would like the lime.

And thanks to Al!!!

Randy


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Sun, Mar 1, 09 at 0:13

Randy, unless you're sure your fertilizer includes Ca & Mg (most solubles do not contain these elements) or you're sure your irrigation water contains Ca/Mg in ample amounts and in a favorable ratio to each other, including dolomitic (garden) lime is still a very good idea.

You did a lot of work, Al (Goodhumasman). Good job!

Al


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

Thanks, Al. Compared to your effort, it was like rearranging the patio furniture after you built the house.

A note about the Cornell method of measuring porosity: You do not have to use a garden container. I used a large styrofoam cup, and, when it was time to drain the water from the saturated mix, I just poked some holes in the bottom with a fork.

And in case there is any confusion about the Cornell formulas:

Total porosity = total pore volume divided by container volume
Aeration porosity = aeration pore volume divided by container volume
Water-holding porosity = total porosity minus aeration porosity

It's easier than it looks, and you get a definitive answer about the porosity of your mix.


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

Al, thank you so much for your comment!
I will get some dolomitic (garden) lime and add it to the mix.

Thanks again!

Randy


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

Now *this* is what should go in that book Tapla should write. :-)


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

Can we use Al's mix for cactus in container also?


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Tue, Aug 18, 09 at 15:20

The gritty mix would be far superior for cacti & succulents.

Al


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

From what I've had a chance to read this sounds like a simple formula (pine bark, sphagnum peat, perlite).

Can/should I use this for woody plants?

Also, can I buy the sphagnum peat in small amounts or does that come only in big bags?

Is this perlite the Miracle Grow stuff in the green bag? I've seen perlite in small bags at the local hardware store but never paid close attention.

I think we have some pine bark left over from our garden mulching but not sure how "fine" it really is. I'm sure it's not composted, just regular pine mulch in a big bag. I don't think we have any sphagnum peat or have ever bought any so I'll need that.

I sure have a lot of reading to do!

Margo


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Mon, Aug 24, 09 at 18:12

The 5:1:1 mix is very good for woody plants, but the gritty mix is better if you plan on going more than a single growth cycle between repots. Sphagnum peat does come in small bags, but often it's screened so it's almost 'dust-fine' and a little texture is better. It's usually readily found in 1 cu ft bales for less than the small bags you find near the houseplant supplies.

Best: For the 5:1:1 mix, fine is dust to dime-size. For the gritty mix, fine is 1/8 - 1/4" pieces. Fir bark works very well in the gritty mix (what I use) and you might find it prescreened.

Al


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

Correct me if i am wrong,you can use gypsum for calcium also and it won't raise the PH of the mix as i beleive it contains sulpher. Joe


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Mon, Aug 24, 09 at 20:22

It's a little more complicated than that. We usually use dolomitic lime on soils with a low starting pH because it raises pH to a more favorable level and it supplies both Ca and Mg in a favorable ratio. (The ratio is important because Ca and Mg are antagonistic in soils and too much of one can cause a deficiency of the other.

In soils with a higher starting pH, it's probably advantageous to use gypsum as a Ca source because if its insignificant effect on pH. If you DO use gypsum, and since it contains only Ca and not Mg, you should add Epsom salts to your fertilizer solution whenever you fertilize to keep the Ca:Mg ratio favorable.

Al


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

Al said that pine bark fines to be used are the same as in the picture at 12:00 o clock on top. I can find here what is at 9:00 o clock on the left. Can I use them instead and chop them smaller with 5 parts bark, 1 part sphagnum peat and 1 part perlite. Please confirm. I cannot find garden lime however can I use gypsum instead and do I have to mix them all and keep them for one week before potting my houseplants in?


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Tue, Aug 25, 09 at 13:45

The bark you have will be ok if you chop it finer. If you use the formula you suggested, you may have some toxicity issues (Al, Fe, Mn, mainly) because the pH will be very low. You can try it, but I think liming this soil will be pretty important. You don't need to wait 2 weeks because gypsum is considerably more soluble than dolomite.

Al


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

Thanks Al for the response. Please advise how much should be the size in mm or cm for bark. So i can mix the ingredients in 5.1.1 portion and pot the plants in. I have new clay pots, will they be okay for indoor plants.


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Tue, Aug 25, 09 at 22:07

For the 5:1:1 mix, it's best if all pieces are under 1 cm. For the gritty mix, it's best if the bark pieces are 2.5-6 mm. Clay (terra cotta) pots are a very good choice.

Al


 o
RE: My first 5-1-1 Container Mix

This is for you Al if you notice. My first 5-1-1 mix with pine bark, sphagnum peat & perlite. I wonder if it should look like this, A pinch lime and gypsum was added too.


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Thu, Aug 27, 09 at 11:04

It looks kind of coarse, but the only downside to that is you'll need to water a little more often than if the bark was half the size shown. You should see REALLY good growth. I'm not sure how much a pinch of lime is, or what kind you used - hopefully, it was enough.

Al


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

This brings up a good point and I was going to ask this question anyway.

Al mentioned a few posts earlier that the bark used in the 5-1-1 mix should be "dust to dime sized". Now I understand what the ideal size is, thanks Al!

This morning I looked at the leftover pine bark we have stored in the barn and it varies quite a bit from dust-sized to dime-size and even larger. A big range of sizes in these bags for sure. I think the largest pieces I noticed were maybe about 1" in size but most were smaller.

From what I read in Al's post above it sounds like larger than dime-sized bark is OK to use in the 5-1-1 mix, but will probably require more frequent watering. Is that right? Will larger pieces of bark result in larger air spaces in the mix? That might be good for the roots if I understand the soil science correctly.

Just want to make sure that larger range of bark is acceptable in the 5-1-1 before we spend a few hours/days sifting and sorting pine bark.

Thank you!

Margo


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

One question though; how do we know when to water with 5-1-1 mix since in regular potting soil you can check the moisture by touching or using a wooden stick.


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Thu, Aug 27, 09 at 22:50

It's not just the watering factor when you use larger particles - the greater the contrast in size, the more difficult it is to keep the mix homogeneous. Imagine mixing peat with marbles & then pouring the mix into a bucket ..... You wind up with water retentive peat on the bottom where it shouldn't be, and marbles on top, where, if it was bark, would dry out quickly leaving the wet peat on the bottom where it remains soggy as we desperately try to keep the coarse bark moist - another vicious circle.

Test your containers for moisture at the drain hole(s). When soil (or a wick) feels dry there, it's time to water.

Al


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

Hi Al,

Last time you told me my mixture was a bit coarse which I understood was large and thick. I chopped some bark again and would like to get your opinion before continuing with stressful task. The particles are either 1cm or less.


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Thu, Sep 3, 09 at 13:57

You can try it. If you've screened the bark in the photo - don't. Use everything from dust to 1 cm, and if everything was concentrated in the .25-.5 cm it would be best. Plants will do well in a 5:1:1 mix using this bark, but you'll need to decide if you want to keep up with watering requirements, which would be my only reservation. If you use this bark as is, I think you'll be happier if you try 5:2:1, bark:peat:perlite.

Good luck!!

Al


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

Thanks Al, I didnt screen however as I chopped there is lots of bark dust gathering. I understand I leave it as it is and mix it with 2 part peat and 1 part perlite. Please check your email for a request too.

Thanks again.


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Thu, Sep 3, 09 at 17:45

You're welcome.

I replied.

Al


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

I killed my dragon tree (Dracaena Marginata) by overwatering in Al's 5-1-1 mix. I removed the plant from the mix/pot. Can I use the same mix for another houseplant or the mix is not re-usable.


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Big hugs & kisses for all this information!! I don't know what I'd do without it!! Most likely kill thousands of dollars worth of plants?! Where I'm moving to is tricky with all the heat & rain which is grounds for crown rot on what I'm growing.

I don't know you, but I sure do love you!!

I'm bumping this back to the top to make sure I don't lose it when it comes time in the next week, when I know I'll need to come back & reread something. There is a ton of info here & hard to retain all of it. Info all the way down to soil temps?! You rock, Al!!!

Isn't there a way to put this in a sticky or in the FAQ section so it will always be here?


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Wed, Sep 16, 09 at 16:22

I can only imagine her (I hope itsa her) cooing and shuddering with delight had she stumbled on the container soil thread. ;o) Lol

Al


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

VERY helpful info, bumped back to top!


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

I have found that using a wooden dowel stuck into the root zone works very well for me, and for a few friends that could never keep a plant without over watering it...
These dowels have been a life saver, even with this 5.1.1 mix.
Sometime checking the drain hole for moisture has let me down. Some of my plants have wilted from lack of water even while the drain hole is still moist, because the roots to these plants have not yet filled the bigger containers down that deep..

Some are only half way down or less in the pot, while that part of the soil has gotten very dry before the bottom has dried out..:-)

This has to be one of the best threads I have read, with the friends that come over to read these forums also agree......

Thanks so much again, and to both Al's for helping all of us along the way!!


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by jodik 5 Central IL (My Page) on
    Fri, Oct 2, 09 at 7:17

More excellent information! It must be an AL thing! ;-)

But seriously, thanks for going through the trouble to share so much great information... I've been an Al's Mix convert for a while now... and I've experienced wonderful results. Certainly a lot better than using either bagged mixes or the coir dust I was using!

As an aside... anyone needing just small batches of pine bark in ready to use size can grab a bag of ReptiBark, a reptile bedding available at most large pet stores... or probably online, just Google it.

Thanks, again, guys! Healthy plants begin with healthy roots!


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

NICE!!!!!!

WE should develope a bumper sticker with that phrase..I LOVE IT..

"Healthy plants begin with healthy roots"

The next time I am going to the spring flower show, I will wear a t-shirt with this saying....Oh wait, I may have to explain the meaning to everyone who stops me .....lol

Mike...:-)

Bumped to the top again...


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by jodik 5 Central IL (My Page) on
    Wed, Oct 7, 09 at 10:46

Well... it IS true! Healthy plants DO begin at the roots! Without a healthy root system, a plant cannot function properly... and in order to function properly, a plant's needs must be met. Al's Mix provides much of those needs... and a good water/feed/light/care program provides the rest.

Half of every living thing is genetic... the other half is environmental. It's up to us to provide a decent environment, without which a plant's genetics are pointless.

Bump!


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Wed, Oct 7, 09 at 12:49

Lol - very good point, Jodi. I'm glad you brought it up!

Mother Nature provides the vigor by building it into every plant while it's up to us to provide the cultural conditions to maintain the vitality. Vigor and vitality are distinctly different. Vigor is constant, the genetically encoded potential every plant is encoded with, and is measured by a plant's ability to resist stress and strain, while vitality is a dynamic condition that is a measure of a plant's ability to cope with the hand it's dealt, culturally speaking. A plant can be very vigorous and still be dying because of poor vitality. Far more often than not the term 'vigor' or 'vigorous' is misapplied and in it's stead the terms 'vital' or 'vitality' would have been more appropriate.

Al


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

You know what's sad...:-(

That so many people out there havn't got a clue about this or what we are talking about if we try to explain. Even when I know people that are failing theirs, I try to tell them to look at all this great info, and they say, "that's ok, I got it under control"...

I was at a nursery telling the very same thing that you said in your post, and when I did,they gave me an attitude..

How many plants are suffering at the hands of people that are so narrow minded..Do plants have feelings? Cause if they do, there is alot of hurting ones out there.

Bumped again..;-)


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

Just wondering,

Is there anything about Perlite that would make it unsuitable for blueberries?


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Fri, Oct 9, 09 at 10:23

.... not that I can think of.

Al


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by jodik 5 Central IL (My Page) on
    Fri, Oct 9, 09 at 12:33

As canine breeders, my husband and I have spent the better part of our adult lives trying to educate, or at least point people in the right direction, regarding vigor and vitality, genetic vs. environmental principles... but it all comes down to money for many, and taking the time to research and study isn't what many want to do, and it's not what the retail market wants us to do. The more we learn, the less money we spend, and the less the retail market makes.

If you had a choice of buying a genetically well-bred plant or pet that would last a long time with proper care... or a genetically weak specimen that good care could only hide for so long... why would you spend money on the weaker one, just to replace it often? If you knew better, you wouldn't.

There's a large difference in breeders of good and bad plants and pets. And it all depends on why they breed. To make money... or to create and/or maintain a better specimen.

In the 25 plus years we spent breeding, we hardly produced enough animals to be called breeders... and we barely made enough money to support the animals we kept. But... we came away with animals that are sought out as foundation stock for other kennels, are used to "fix" and strengthen poor gene pools, and a top reputation.

Maybe I'm getting a little off track here, but there's a definite correlation between pets and plants when it comes to superior genetics and providing a decent environment.

If you begin by choosing a healthy, genetically strong plant, and you provide it with a top notch environment, you'll have a gorgeous specimen that will perform well for you.

With a pet, it's the nutrition you give it, and the physical exercise and attention you give that keeps it healthy... and with a plant, that health begins under the soil, at the root zone. Healthy roots make for healthy plants, given that other environmental factors are right, such as light, air circulation, etc...

Ok, I'm rambling... but I think you get my point. :-)



 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

Here I am!! I finally made it!! Al, your mix rocks!! When I got here I didn't have internet so my good buddy looked up this recipe for me because I didn't write down the amount of lime to use. He is now going to use it! My new roommate is now referring to 'Al's Mix', LOL! You have now gained fame in my world, LOL!

My only problem was the perlite I got is really fine. After watering it seemed to float right to the top. I hope I'm OK. I'm lucky I was able to get the PBF though! In fact I got a closer source to start carrying them! It is so sad to read that people are having a hard time locating them.

Whoever posted about using a tarp to mix up a batch, THANK YOU! I used the tarp from the move & worked like a dream!

My plants & I can not thank you enough, Al!! XXX OOO


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Thu, Oct 15, 09 at 14:23

I LOVE posts like yours ...... and not just because of the Xs and Os or the accolades. I like them because it's fun to see people excited & enthusiastic about their growing endeavors.

The tarp was something I adopted when I saw someone on a cooking show use a piece of parchment paper in similar fashion to mix spices before sprinkling them on a (roast?).

Time to move on to the gritty mix for your houseplants and the long-term stuff, eh? ;o) Thanks so much for the very kind words!

Al


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

Is this mix also good for indoor plants? This is my first visit here and there is a lot to read. I'm particularly interested in a citrus tree I have which needs a porous mix and I live in a cold country, Toronto. It spends time outside and at freeze time goes in. I would most appreciate learning what plants would benefit growing in this mix.


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Sat, Oct 17, 09 at 21:52

You might benefit from doing a search and reading about the "gritty mix", and perhaps reading about growing trees in containers would be helpful to those who wish to undertake that endeavor.

Al


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

Bump...this is getting too far back. Thanks again, Al!! Livin' a dream with all my babies!


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

In my research ,
I came across this very helpful thread and it's too good to leave as is. I know it will help many!

BUMP~~


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

THANKS ALOT FROM MY BEST FRIEND, AND ME TOO OVER THIS INFO!!!!!

This thread deserves a GOLD star!!

BUMP!


 o
Newbie - soiless mix


fir bark... does this need to be sifted?


Photobucket


Is this what surface looks like? Can someone post a pic of what they use to sift it? Thanks.


Photobucket


I have to admit this is all very intimidating, confusing and overwhelming. There’s a lot of data to digest and I don’t think I’ve quite absorbed everything. I still have a few questions. And though I’ve combed through a lot of the information, I’m still a bit confused. (I do apologize if these questions have already been answered in previous posts).
I’ve seen sphagnum moss come in a small bag for $4.95 and also come bundled in a large box-like thing. Are these the same material? Isn’t it better to buy the bigger packaged sphagnum moss? Do you have to sift the fir bark? (it comes packaged as bark mulch. I was told it’s made from fir bark). Where do you buy crushed granite at? Is it at HD or Lowe’s? Is there another name for it? What is this pumice and quartz gravel? Are these substitutions? What do you use the red color pumice for? Is this a substitution as well?
Again, I do apologize for recycling questions that have already been posted and answered.
Bo


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

Bo...Everytime the same questions come up, it is a great reminder for all of us here..

You don't have to opologize for asking questions that may have already been asked..Many don't have hours or weeks to find the ones you need answers too at times.

Seeing your interest and effort to use a great medium is always exciting...Keep the questions coming because many here will love the opportunity to help you, and many more still will learn from the answers you recieve..

There are some here that still know much more than me, and I am certain they will be here soon.. It is a constant learning process, which can be very enjoyable..Just take your time and never be afraid to ask..:-)

I have the same feeling as you do about my new Mac computer..lol..


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 3, 10 at 14:21

Yaslan - the fir bark looks very good for the 5:1:1 mix, but a more stable (uncomposted) and more regular (in size) product would be better for the gritty mix.

The material in the bag looks more like calcined DE than Turface. Do YOU know what it is? What is the size of the particles?

The sphagnum is probably the same product, but the small bag would likely have been screened and would be very fine. The inexpensive moss in the bales is great for the 5:1:1 mix - I would prefer it to the fine material, even if the price differential wasn't so great.

Crushed granite is usually available at elevators and/or rural animal feed stores. It's sometimes difficult to find in coastal or near-coastal states, though. I have helped people find it in OR and WA, so I know it's out there. You can ask for Gran-I-Grit in 'grower size' aka grower grit (but make sure it's granite and not crushed shell), or #2 cherrystone. If you find screened pumice or silica (quartz gravel) in an appropriate size, it will work, but if it's pumice, you'll need to reduce the amount of Turface to get the best mix. Remember - size is important.

Don't worry about the questions. With almost 1,500 posts to search through on the soil thread, I know it gets time consuming.

Al


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

Thank Mike. It's good to know I can ask lots of questions (even if they've already been discussed or answered already). Btw, I think you do a fantastic job with your citrus and gardenia.

Al ~ thank you for responding. It's always great to hear your input and invaluable insight.
The label says that it's turface mvp. It's about 1/8" or smaller. Does this still have to be sifted? It's great to know the fir bark I have can be used for the 5:1:1 mix (I will have to check around for the uncomposted fir bark). I'm also glad to hear the bale sphagnum moss also works well for the 5:1:1 mix too. I'll keep searching for the crushed granite. I am excited and can't wait to gather all the ingredients together and start re-potting all my houseplants.
I also have to admit I never did pay much attention to soil, water retention, or aeration. But recently I've noticed that the soil stays wet for too long and most of my cuttings or seeds don't have a very good chance of surviving (especially during fall/winter). This is why I am determined to gather all the ingredients for Al's soiless mix.
I believe the survival rate for my seedlings, houseplants and container-grown trees increases dramatically (with Al's soiless mix) and will have a greater chance of surviving and thriving in my care...lol.
~ Bo


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 3, 10 at 16:08

The color doesn't look like Turface, so I'm guessing the flash or the lighting had something to do with it. If you're using it for the gritty mix, it should be screened through insect screening or a 'standard' mesh kitchen strainer (about the same size as insect screening). If you're using it in the 5:1:1 mix, you can add it w/o screening.

I really do think you'll see a significant difference in the vitality of your plants, AND in how easy and carefree tending them will be. Good luck!

Al


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

Is this strainer ok for sifting turface?


Photobucket


Screened turface. (I hope this is the right size).


Photobucket

Thanks Al. I appreciate all your help. I've been getting a bit frustrated with not having all the ingredients. (I'm lacking patience). It's just I am very excited and can't wait to get my plants in your soiless mix!
I called Orchards Feed Mill. They're just 4 minutes away! I asked about crushed granite. The man said something about feeding chicken. I didn't know what he was talking about but I assumed it had something to do with the crushed granite. I am excited and can't wait to go check it out! Now, I just have to find uncomposted fir bark. Anyone know where I should look for this? Or is it at HD or Lowes?
~ Bo


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail


I deleted pics from photobucket. ooOops! I didn't know it would take photos out here too.

Is this strainer ok for sifting turface?

Photobucket


Screed surface

Photobucket


 o
Screen turface


I deleted pics from photobucket. ooOops! I didn't know it would take photos out here too.

Is this strainer ok for sifting turface?

Photobucket


Screed surface

Photobucket


 o
Sorry!

Sorry for the double pics. Does anyone know how to delete post?


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 3, 10 at 20:24

I can't tell you where to find the fir bark precisely, but white fir is harvested extensively in your neighborhood, so you should have little trouble finding it. Try calling nurseries or places that cater to orchid growers.

The strainer and the screened Turface look perfect. No way to delete your double posting - don't worry about it. ;o)

Al


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

Can white fir substitute for uncomposted fir bark?
The man at the orchid store said that uncomposted fir bark is sold as regular orchid soil. Is this correct? Because if what he's saying is true then that stuff is twice as expensive as regular fir bark.
I will try and call other nurseries and orchid growers tomorrow.
Thanks for all your help Al. ( :
~Bo


 o
RE: Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 3, 10 at 23:05

I was referring to white fir bark - very common in Northern CA, OR, and WA.

The going price for fine screened (1/8-1/4) fir bark for orchids is around $17/3 cu ft bag in Chicago, so it should be less in your neighborhood because freight costs are minimal. I bought 20 or 25 bags the last time I bought it and got it for $15ea/3 cu ft bag. I'm sure you can find it in bulk if you look and don't mind screening it yourself.

Al


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Container Gardening Forum
 
 


iVillage GardenWeb: The Internet's Garden & Home Community  
  iVillage Home & Garden Network