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ideal2545

Anyone try Peppers and Tomatoes in Gritty Mix?

ideal2545
12 years ago

Hi Everyone,

I have a whole lot of Turface, Granite and Repti-Bark sitting in my garage right now and I was curious if I could just make up some extra gritty mix for some tomato/pepper plants, or if you guys think the 511 mix is just simply better. I plan to use Foilage Pro and then add in some Pro-Tekt later on for some blooming and whatnot.

-Jon

Comments (85)

  • TheMasterGardener1
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    DWD2,

    "Based on what I have read to date, my opinion is that the large majority of plants are going to give you better out comes when they are grown organically"

    Based on my experience to date, I know that when growing in containers in-organics are far more effective. I even use a hydro-organic fertilizer that has carbonates in it so it is not really full organic at all.

  • DWD2
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    TheMasterGardener1,

    We are likely talking about 2 different things. My guess is that, if I valued the factors you use to arrive at your point of view as you value them, we would be in agreement. I think a lot of these "disagreements" come down to the not so easy question of "What is crop quality?" I value exceptional, great, complex taste in my tomatoes as my utmost goal. It is part of the reason I have over 50 varieties coming-up from seeds right now for the different flavors among them. A lot of people might think that crazy. Heck, I sometimes do too. Someone else favors a balance of yield and flavor. While another person primarily cares about high yield with anything that tastes better than a grocery store tomato (and I hope we ALL can agree that beating the taste of a grocery tomato is not too hard to do or as my grandfather used to say, a little bit on top of nothing is a whole hell of a lot).

    In the posts above, I tried to provide an entry into the scientific literature on the subject. For instance, when people look at something like anthocyanin levels in tomatoes, they are routinely higher in the organically grown tomatoes in the published data that I have seen. In blind taste tests that I know about with panels of chefs, once again organically grown tomatoes win. As I said above, to my mind it is a question of good versus better for this particular quality in most cases.

    I have no idea how to accomplish it, but don't you think many of these discussions would be more productive if everyone tried to briefly define their growing goals and what crop quality was to them?

    Good luck with your gardens!

  • TheMasterGardener1
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "In blind taste tests that I know about with panels of chefs, once again organically grown tomatoes win"
    A big reason I use some organics.

  • Spaceman21
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    DWD2 Thanks for the interesting, well written posts.
    Since you've visited them, I'm curious about the Loveapplefarm.
    On the sidebar there is a link to Biodynamic Agriculture they espouse. Since no mention of the BD preps is made with their tomato production, did you see what crops they use them on?
    As for plants not being able to tell the difference where they get their nutrients from may be true but those that taste them surely can.
    As soon as I figure out how to post images here, I will post the image of my 8ft and growing Chadwick Cherry that was taken June 15th 2010 in my Zone 6 backyard in a 12 gallon fake half whiskey barrel. That tomato that went on to produce well over 250 1-2oz fruits over that Summer and was only halted when my neighbor couldn't water for me on a hot August day while I was vacationing.
    The soil was a mixture of sharp sand, homemade compost, finely ground charcoal, Miracle Gro potting mix and my secret ingredient for additional taste.
    The charcoal spent a season in the compost pile.
    Incidently, my same neighbor was the recipient of that tomato's next of kin and he grew it in regular garden soil fertilized with Miracle Gro (or Ozmocote, don't quite recall). Without my secret ingredient that tomato produced flat, watery tasting fruit that was in stark contrast to the wonderfully complex flavor mine had.
    OK, OK I'll share my secret, banana peels! about a dozen or so, fresh and dried and maybe a whole too soft banana just for laffs.

    ideal2545 I guess you can see theres more than one way to grow just about anything.

  • TheMasterGardener1
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Incidently, my same neighbor was the recipient of that tomato's next of kin and he grew it in regular garden soil fertilized with Miracle Gro (or Ozmocote, don't quite recall). Without my secret ingredient that tomato produced flat, watery tasting fruit that was in stark contrast to the wonderfully complex flavor mine had.
    OK, OK I'll share my secret, banana peels! about a dozen or so, fresh and dried and maybe a whole too soft banana just for laffs"

    Calcium/ Magnesium in the peals made the difference.

  • DWD2
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Spaceman21, You are welcome. I hope the posts are helpful.
    I have not payed attention to the details of the Biodynamic methods used at Love Apple Farms. There is a course on it taught there but it is down my current priority list. I buy a fair bit of wine and biodynamically produced wine is becoming very common around the world. Right or wrong, there appears to be a lot of money making a bet on it.
    There are a number of people on these forums who are quick to point out that a plant can not differentiate between an organically provided mineral or one provided with a conventional fertilizer. They are completely correct that a calcium ion or nitrate ion is the same irrespective of source. But what is going on in the plant is very different in those two circumstances. Below is a reference where the gene expression in organically grown wheat is compared to that in conventionally fertilized wheat. BIG, BIG differences in the expression profiles. The organically grown wheat has a much more complex pattern. To be sure, that does not prove you get a superior tasting and nutritional wheat from organic production. But, when mammalian responses to non-toxic flavors & odorants have been examined, complexity is preferred. Anyway, anyone who wishes can look at the reference and decide if they want it to color their thinking.
    http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/272/1575/1901.full.pdf+html
    Your secret ingredient is a hoot! I will have to give it a try on a plant or two this year. TheMastergardener1 is on top of it too. Aren't bananas rich in potassium too?

    Good luck with your gardens!

  • TheMasterGardener1
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Aren't bananas rich in potassium too? "
    Yes!!!!

  • 4hleader
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lots of information in these posts. It would be great if there was an FAQ that said something like National Brand G is equivalent to local brand H or local brands Q, R, S and T are essentially the same. For instance, I'd like to know if there is an equivalent to the potting soil mentioned by DWD2.

    Having grown some tomatoes in 5 gallon pots last year (I ran out of regular pots and money), I can tell you that at least it worked on some level here in New Hampshire.

    This year I'm going to be growing only in pots and relatively few at that; 15 at most. I think I'll be haunting this thread for a while. I haven't even started my seeds yet though I will later on this week. My last frost date is 5/25.

  • emgardener
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks DWD for all this information especially the links and the eggshell information.

    Thanks Spacesman for the banana secret.

    Eggshells and bananas are going into my containers this year.

    My own unscientific tastings prefer organic grown tomatoes and lettuce.

    My own focus is to grow in containers with no purchased mixes or fertilizers.

    Here is a link that might be useful: All natural versus synthetic

  • Spaceman21
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well I for one am sure gonna try Al's mixes on some 'maters this year. I want to see how the taste will compare to the mixes I've tried. Purely subjective I know. One thing I won't do is put that Chadwick Cherry in a pot, it's just too rambunctious and you have to prune it severely to keep it manageable.
    I never seem to have the time or heart to prune.
    On the topic of chem vs organic I saw a film years ago at Ohio University of a plants root absorbing a colloidal size particle of compost.
    Seeing that I think it's not just about NPK and trace elements.
    Anyhoo there's plenty of banana peels in my compost, charcoal, egg shells and coffee grounds too. Mostly its lawn clippings(notice I didn't say grass) and saved leaves from Fall.
    Funny that those egg shells make it through the composting pretty much intact, I never see them again in my pots or soil though.
    The charcoal, I believe, helps micro-organisms find shelter, like a reef, and make the soil FERTILE.
    Fertility is the amount of life in the soil is it not?
    The good people at Cornell U seem to think that burying carbon this way can remove carbon from the atmosphere for thousands of years.
    Whether or not you agree with the AGW theory or not, you can't disagree that we humans are awfully good at transferring carbon from the earth to the air.
    Making a small amount of carbon in my retorts each Winter probably doesn't impact my total carbon output that modern life enables me to, yet I feel good about it and the plants I grow certainly do.
    I see the biggest effect of charcoal in my containers where it's easy to get 20-30% charcoal by volume.
    It takes a LOT of charcoal to influence my raised garden beds. Maybe one 4'X4'X 1' bed has 5%?

    I'll try a 5-1-1-1-1 in at least one container this season. The extra ingredients charcoal and compost.

  • rina_Ontario,Canada 5a
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What kind of charcoal do you use - I know you can buy some at aquarium supply stores/pet stores, but that would be expensive? So can you use any kind of charcoal?
    Thnx. Rina

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    FWIW - the taste of tomatoes grown in containers has more to do with watering habits than what type of soil or fertilizer you use.

    Eggshells are almost 100% CaCO3, which is virtually insoluble at the pH levels we grow at. I've added eggshells to the garden, compost, and containers; never did they seem to change size/shape or get rubbery over the course of a growth cycle or two. As far as roots embracing the eggshells ...... they 'seem to' embrace all large particulates in the soil structure - especially bark and prills of controlled release fertilizers, like Osmocote. If eggshells WERE soluble, there might be considerable DISADVANTAGE in adding them to soils without also adding an appropriate measure of Mg. When the ratio of Ca:Mg gets significantly out of balance, an antagonistic deficiency develops, making it more difficult for the plant to assimilate one element when the other is present in excess. Where pH levels support it's use, the best way to get Ca to plants is via dolomitic (garden) lime. Bone meal also breaks down so slowly it's chemical benefits are insignificant in containers, and structurally it can't be considered a plus.

    BTW - more often than not, the BER we so often associate with a Ca deficiency is a physiological issue related to growth rate, not an actual Ca deficiency related to a scarcity of that element. Whenever this is the heart of the issue, adding 'extra' Ca has no potential to be beneficial; it only has the potential to be limiting. The same is true of any element dissolved in the soil solution. Fortunately, CaCO3's (eggshells') extremely limited solubility trumps what could otherwise be a potential problem.

    If you add a banana peel to your soil, how much K are you supplying? Does your plant NEED the extra K? If it doesn't, the additional K has only the potential to be limiting, not beneficial. Many of you are operating on the premise that 'more of anything' is a good thing. It's not. If the plant has any element in the soil available at levels high enough to satisfy the plant's needs, there is only the potential to LIMIT in adding more. If a plant needs the extra K that might be found in a banana peel, it needs it now, not 3 months from now when the breakdown of the fruit's molecular structure is at its peak and the amount of K it's contributing is as unknown as the need for more K.

    Al

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for breaking it down, Al.
    Very helpful, indeed.

    Josh

  • TheMasterGardener1
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The fact that someone said the ONLY thing different in the fertilizer program was banana peels, and if this is really true then the lacking Ca/Mg in miracle would of been what I thought.

    BTW- I do not think using banana peels in containers is a good idea, that is quite obvious if you read back on my view of fertilizer for containers.....

    So lets take a step back now because I really have to do this.....

    "Incidently, my same neighbor was the recipient of that tomato's next of kin and he grew it in regular garden soil fertilized with Miracle Gro (or Ozmocote, don't quite recall). Without my secret ingredient that tomato produced flat, watery tasting fruit that was in stark contrast to the wonderfully complex flavor mine had.
    OK, OK I'll share my secret, banana peels! about a dozen or so, fresh and dried and maybe a whole too soft banana just for laffs"

    Not once was a specific time period stated when they added the peels, they could of added them 3 months before the plant started producing fruit........

    Again, "I do not think using banana peels in containers is a good idea, that is quite obvious if you read back on my view of fertilizer for containers"

  • Spaceman21
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nice guys! What I was refering to was that adding banana peels to my soil, container or no, improved the flavor of my tomatoes. No science necessary.

  • TheMasterGardener1
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I believe it. I understand the peels need to break down to become usable to the plant. That is why it is not ideal.

  • Spaceman21
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    rina, sorry I missed your msg. One reply has already been lost.
    Try Cowboy brand. I've used them in the past and bought natural briquettes at $3/20 lb bag. HD was clearing them out. Briquette were made with corn starch tho I don't see them on their site now.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Cowboy

  • Spaceman21
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It beats me what is going on with those banana peels.
    I think I read about it in the letters section of Mother Earth News decades ago. The article said to use dried banana peels. If you start saving them now you should have plenty by planting time. Of course they'll be dry too because they'll rot if you don't dry them. What suprised me was that they actually tasted better than ones that had none at their root balls.
    Purely subjective, and your mileage may vary.
    Thanks for trying to explain it Al. Sometimes this old brain can't get a handle on science though.

    Strange that you can still see eggshells after they're in the soil. Maybe your plants are so well fertilized, they ignore the shells. Usually only bones and charcoal persist in my garden.

  • TheMasterGardener1
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Of course they'll be dry too because they'll rot if you don't dry them. What suprised me was that they actually tasted better than ones that had none at their root balls."

    So if it was the ONLY thing you did different....

    "Thanks for breaking it down, Al.
    Very helpful, indeed.
    Josh"

    What?

  • rina_Ontario,Canada 5a
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Spaceman

    thnx, no problem - I do not expect immediate answer...we have other things to do too, right?
    You took time & I appreciate.

    Rina

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "It beats me what is going on with those banana peels."

    It's not unusual for a prejudice to influence perception. Often, when we expect a certain result it seems that we tend to form our perceptions to fit our expectations. I suppose the psychological reason for that is no one wants to be wrong or feel their efforts might have been in vain.

    Something interesting - I recently read about a tomato 'taste test' where a half bushel of tomatoes were picked from two vines growing adjacent to each other. The tomatoes were the same variety and mixed together after being picked. Half the tomatoes were placed in and served from a plastic tub with a Kroger (grocery store) emblem on it for taste sampling. The other half were served from a peck-size basket made of wood. The participants were told nothing about the tomatoes, but they all saw the container from which the tomatoes were taken. Each of the 10 people sampling the tomatoes said those from the wooden basket tasted better.

    We see similar 'results' reported all over all over the forums, attributed to causes more likely impossible than improbable. Often the reports are relatively harmless, but equally often they carry the likelihood of expectations raised w/o warrant. Unfortunately, the wake left after trying to shed some light on the issue is often turbulent.

    Al

  • TheMasterGardener1
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Something interesting - I recently read about a tomato 'taste test' where a half bushel of tomatoes were picked from two vines growing adjacent to each other. The tomatoes were the same variety and mixed together after being picked. Half the tomatoes were placed in and served from a plastic tub with a Kroger (grocery store) emblem on it for taste sampling. The other half were served from a peck-size basket made of wood. The participants were told nothing about the tomatoes, but they all saw the container from which the tomatoes were taken. Each of the 10 people sampling the tomatoes said those from the wooden basket tasted better. "

    I can sum this up.....

    So you are doubting Spaceman21?

    You must have just "thought" they tasted better, clearly there is just no way......

    Wait....Spaceman21, were they from a wooden basket ? That would have made them taste different...hahahahaha

    ;)

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Please don't put words in my mouth. I was making a general observation that may or may not explain the perceived difference in taste. What I mentioned is a common affliction of man in general; and by the way you've been conducting yourself, you in particular.

    Al

  • TheMasterGardener1
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    All I said was I do not think using banana peels would be a good choice for a container, but it may be the peels that made a difference. If they were dry maybe they broke down faster.

  • DaMonkey007
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wouldn't it be hilarious if MG turned out to be Al's alter ego pen name??? LOL!!!

    Unfortunatly, you can't make this stuff up....

    Ahhh, if we were only so lucky....

  • Spaceman21
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    No offense taken,..... I think.
    I once grew a tomato plant next to my strawberry patch.
    When the tomatoes starting coming in I took the first few in to my coworkers. Upon tasting one, my bud exclaimed " Wow, these taste like strawberries!" THEN I told him of their proximity to the strawberries. He then demanded I that I bring in tomatoes from "the strawmater plant" each week.
    This was 30 years ago and while I remember this incident like yesterday, I can't remember that strawmater taste!

  • Spaceman21
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Now I'm sad. That memory I posted caused me to jump on Google Maps and check the old place out. My house is boarded up and there's junk cars all over my old strawberry patch. That was a great garden, what a waste!

  • DWD2
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    4Hleader, I agree it would be great. I would not be surprised if there are equivalent potting soils, but I know of no simple way to determine it. Sadly, there is virtually no consumer pressure for even remotely adequate labeling on commercial potting soil. To make matters worse, not only is there considerable variation between brands, there is even meaningful variation within brands. There are standards published by the horticulture group at North Carolina State University who I think are the Harvard or Stanford of horticultural scientists. These standards are sadly not followed by the industry. The following references show you the degree of variation out there:
    http://horttech.ashspublications.org/content/15/4/752.full.pdf
    http://horttech.ashspublications.org/content/16/1/7.full.pdf
    For the time being, one is left with trying different brands in his/her own tests & determining what works best for your own hands.

    tapla, So watering is the major determinate of tomato taste? Can you provide some published support for that statement? Here is one clear example demonstrating that how you grow a tomato has a clear-cut effect on what is in the tomato.
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0889157505000633
    I do not think it is unreasonable to suppose that is almost certainly going to translate to a taste difference. Of course, everyone is free to come to his/her own conclusion.

    I suggest you think more broadly about possible mechanism where egg shells could have a benefit. I do not know if the use of egg shells is a cure (preventative really) for BER or positive nutritional supplement. My feeling is the egg shells may be a useful part of the regime I use to grow tomatoes. Neither I, nor anyone that I have direct knowledge of their results, have encountered BER in their tomato growing using the method developed by Cynthia Sandburg. I note there seem to be a lot of people coming to the GardenWeb looking for help with BER using other methods. Are egg shells responsible in part or completely for the result I see? I do not know and I do not have the time to test it in any meaningful way. I spend my professional time in science in pursuit of other goals. I suggest one thing worth considering is there may be certain growth conditions where egg shells are helpful in reducing/eliminating BER and some sets of conditions where egg shells are less helpful or ineffective. The regime I use puts a handful of crushed egg shells in the planting hole. I also add a preparation of mycorrhizae and rhizobacteria. At the end of the season last Fall when I removed my plants from their pots, I dissected several of the root balls. What I observed was the egg shells were engulfed in root. When I pulled the root away and examined the shells, they were very different than when they were placed in the planting hole. The egg shells now had no stiffness and seemed lighter. I got some egg shell pieces as close to the same size as I could that were in the bag these came from for the planting. Upon weighing, it appeared ~90% of the egg shell weight had been lost. I dissolved the 2 sets of egg shells in acid to solublize the calcium carbonate and used a colorimetric test titrating with EDTA to quantitate the calcium. The egg shells that were removed from the plant roots had calcium just at the low limit of detection. The egg shells that had not been with a tomato plant had at least 1000 fold more calcium. It was a quick & dirty test to be sure. My working hypothesis is the calcium from those egg shells ended-up in the plant. I will point out that Ms. Sandburg grows exclusively for one of the most acclaimed restaurants in the world. If either the quality or the quantity of her products were not world-class, chef Kinch from Manresa would go elsewhere in an instant. There appears to be no shortage of extraordinary growers in Northern California competing for high-end restaurants as customers if one is to believe the Food column in the San Francisco Chronicle. I do not think it a fallacy of logic to believe that affords her and her methods considerable credibility.

    You make the statement, "If eggshells WERE soluble, there might be considerable DISADVANTAGE in adding them to soils without also adding an appropriate measure of Mg. When the ratio of Ca:Mg gets significantly out of balance, an antagonistic deficiency develops, making it more difficult for the plant to assimilate one element when the other is present in excess." It takes pretty high levels of calcium to cause toxicity. So, the "DISADVANTAGE" eludes me. As to the "Ca:Mg ratio" and "antagonistic deficiency" you bring up, I spent a couple of hours searching through my copy of Marschner's Mineral Nutrition of Higher Plants, which everyone I know in the world of plant biology assures me is the tome on plant nutrition they all depend on, and I can find no mention of any such relationship between calcium and magnesium in plants. Can you supply a scientific reference that demonstrates this please? What I can find is that the uptake of Ca can be inhibited by Mn that is present at very high (toxic) levels. For instance see:
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0044328X78801044
    There are other examples of high levels of one mineral affecting levels of another. But, outside of normal nutritional ranges, I can find no science demonstrating a Ca:Mg ratio that must be maintained to prevent an "antagonistic deficiency." Once again, I'd love to see a reference.

    BER is caused by calcium deficiency in the distal fruit tissues of tomatoes. Perhaps this review will help everyone's understanding.
    http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/95/4/571.full.pdf+html
    There are several mechanisms discussed in this review that can lead to a calcium deficiency in the distal fruit tissue. The calcium deficiency need not be caused by a low level of Ca in the growth media, but a calcium deficiency in growth media was exactly how calcium's role in BER was first demonstrated. Your statement about BER, "BTW - more often than not, the BER we so often associate with a Ca deficiency is a physiological issue related to growth rate, not an actual Ca deficiency related to a scarcity of that element." May be confusing to other readers. As the authors of the review put it, "...BER appears to be unrelated to plant growth rate per se. However, BER does appear to be related to fruit growth rate and/or potential fruit size among cultivars..." So, for clarity, plant growth rate is not a determinant, fruit growth is.

    Your statement, "adding 'extra' Ca has no potential to be beneficial" is incorrect too. As the authors point out in the review I provided above, foliar application of Ca to young tomato plants can be used to help prevent BER. I direct you to the beginning of the final paragraph where the authors state,
    "In a horticultural context, BER can be considered simply as a symptom of Ca deficiency in the distal fruit tissue during rapid cell expansion. Thus, BER in a tomato crop can be minimized by spraying Ca onto young tomato fruit (Fig. 5; Wilcox et al., 1973; Ho, 1998a; Schmitz-Eiberger et al., 2002). In the glasshouse, this treatment prevents BER more effectively than other current horticultural practices, such as the manipulation of the mineral composition of the feed (e.g. lower N supply) or the growth environment (e.g. lower canopy transpiration), because it increases the Ca concentration of distal fruit tissues directly. However, this treatment can only be effective when regular Ca sprays are targeted to young fruit before any symptom of BER is observed."

    Relative to Spaceman21's observation about adding banana peels to his tomato growth media, I suggest one can think a bit more broadly here too. Why does the result he reports have to be due to potassium or calcium or magnesium or any other mineral present in the peel? Could the improvement he sees be due to some other substance(s) in the banana peel? That is certainly a viable hypothesis to my mind. I appreciate Spaceman21 throwing it out there and do not dismiss his observation.

    Good luck with your gardens!

  • Spaceman21
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'll try to post what I lost yesterday. The charcoal I've seen from aquariums and water filters is very hard and durable. The charcoal I make from firewood waste in my retorts is usually quite soft and crumbly. Even though both are obtained from hardwood, I think the aquarium/water filter type is fired at a much higher heat. Charcoal suitable for garden use is said to be be fired at lower temperatures.
    Apparently the Cowboy brand no longer makes briquettes. They had the advantage of dissolving into glop when soaked or crumbling when seasoned in the compost pile. Lump charcoal has to be ground into 1/4" size pieces or less, which is a dirty, messy, potentially hazardous job.
    Check out the link below:

    Here is a link that might be useful: Gardening with Biochar

  • Spaceman21
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You fellas are both terrific.
    I think Al is absolutely correct though, how does one quantify taste? I posted with "totally subjective and YMMV"
    DWD2 smacks it outta the park too as we've seen evidence of plants consuming colloidal sized particles.
    If plants can do that, they aren't limited to simple chemical exchange.
    "Now I want a clean fight, no eye gouging, head butting or shorts yanking. Let's shake hands, go back to your corners and come out swinging!"
    Have a good night.

  • Spaceman21
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    BER?
    Bananas Eggshells Rock?
    Bury Eggshells Routinely?
    Blast Effect Radius?

  • Spaceman21
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Duh.
    blossom end rot
    time for bed.

  • DWD2
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I like the Bananas Eggshells Rock although others may reasonably say Bananas Eggshells Ridiculous.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's unfortunate if (the late) Dr Horst Marschner's work doesn't discuss antagonisms, but obviously that doesn't mean they don't exist. I added the most recent (3rd) edition to my library last summer after a long and unexpected printing delay. I've long recognized it as a definitive source of information about plant nutrition.

    Insofar as antagonisms between Ca:Mg, please consider:

    "Magnesium deficiency symptoms may be associated with an antagonistic relationship between magnesium ions (Mg2+) and other cations such as hydrogen (H+), ammonium (NH4 +), calcium (Ca2+), potassium (K+), aluminum (Al3+), or sodium (Na+). The competition of magnesium with other cations for uptake ranges from highest to lowest as follows: K>NH4+>Ca>Na. These cations can compete with magnesium for binding sites on soil colloids, increasing the likelihood that magnesium will be leached from soils after it has been released from exchange sites. Within the plant, there are also antagonistic relationships between other cations and magnesium regarding the affinity for various binding sites within the cell membranes, the degree of which is influenced by the type of binding site (lipid, protein, chelate, etc.), and the hydration of the cation. These biochemical interactions result in competition of other cations with magnesium for absorption into the roots and translocation and assimilation in the plant."

    Additionally:

    "High rhizosphere concentrations of calcium, relative to magnesium, are inhibitory to the absorption of magnesium and vice versa. the early 1900s, the importance of proper ratios of magnesium to calcium in soils was emphasized through studies conducted by Loew and May on the relationships of lime and dolomite. High calcium concentrations in solution or in field soils sometimes limit magnesium accumulation and may elicit magnesium deficiency symptoms. In tomato, the magnesium concentration in shoots and fruits decreased as the calcium fertilization rate increased. Similarly, it was shown that increased calcium concentrations inhibited magnesium uptake in common bean (Phaseolus vulgaris L.). On the other hand, decreased accumulation of calcium in birch was directly correlated with the decreased absorption and accumulation of calcium as magnesium fertilization rates increased. The absorption of calcium decreased from 1.5 to 0.3 mmol g-1 root mass as magnesium fertilization increased. Morard et al. reported a strong antagonism between calcium and magnesium, suggesting that calcium influenced magnesium translocation to leaves. Optimum leaf Ca/Mg ratios are considered to be approximately 2:1; however, Ca/Mg ratios >1:1 and In containerized crop production, general recommendations indicate sufficient calcium and magnesium additions to produce an extractable Ca/Mg ratio of 2:5. Navarro et al. reported an antagonist effect of calcium on magnesium accumulation in melon (Cucumis melo L.), regardless of salinity levels imposed by sodium chloride. In other studies, it was shown that even with the use of dolomitic lime, magnesium deficiency might occur. This occurrence is due to the different solubilities of magnesium carbonate (MgCO3) and calcium carbonate (CaCO3) in the dolomite. [We discuss this issue on this forum frequently] Therefore, during the first 4 months, both magnesium and calcium solubilized from the dolomite. However, after 4 months, all of the magnesium had dissolved from the dolomite, leaving only Ca from the CaCO3 available for dissolution and availability to the plant. Based on these studies, it appears that the use of solid calcium and magnesium fertilizers with similar solubility rates may be important so that both elements are available in similar and sufficient levels throughout the entire crop production cycle."

    Let's not take what I said out of context, or expand the conversation to include foliar feeding with soluble forms of Ca when the conversation is about eggshells in the soil. What I ACTUALLY said is, "BTW - more often than not, the BER we so often associate with a Ca deficiency is a physiological issue related to growth rate, not an actual Ca deficiency related to a scarcity of that element. Whenever this is the heart of the issue, adding 'extra' Ca has no potential to be beneficial; it only has the potential to be limiting. The same is true of any element dissolved in the soil solution. Fortunately, CaCO3's (eggshells') extremely limited solubility trumps what could otherwise be a potential problem", which is 100% accurate, no matter how it's diced.

    More to consider:

    Carolyn J. Male, Ph.D., is a retired professor of microbiology from the College of Saint Rose in Albany, New York.

    You might find what she says about BER very enlightening - I did:

    "Blossom End Rot (BER) is one of the most common tomato problems seen in the early part of the season. It is a physiological condition, not a disease caused by a fungus, a bacterium or a virus. Therefore it cannot be treated. And as I'll explain below, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to prevent.

    BER has nothing to do with the blossoms, it refers to the fact that at the end of the tomato opposite the place where the tomato is attached to the stem, called the stem end, is the bottom of the tomato, which is called the blossom end. You often can see remnants of the blossom attached to that end as the tomato forms. At the blossom end one sees a flattened area that looks leathery and initially brown and then black, as the fruit rots.

    BER is said to occur when there is uneven watering, drought, heavy rainfall, excessive nitrogen fertilization, rapid plant growth or root pruning during cultivation, high winds and rapid temperature changes. So lots of conditions have been associated with BER. But the rapid plant growth and nitrogen fertilization are both common to conditions seen early in the season, and indeed, that is when most BER occurs. Then it usually just goes away.

    BER occurs because under the conditions just stated, Ca++ moves from the fruit into the vasculature (stems) of the plant. Or, some feel that Ca++ never reaches the fruits because under stress demand for Ca++ exceeds supply. This lowered amount of Ca++ is what causes BER. Excessive rates of transpiration (kind of like sweating in humans) also is involved in Ca++ displacement. Thus, the plant as a whole is NOT Ca++ deficient, the Ca++ has just been displaced. Many books and magazine articles tell you that by adding Ca++ in the form of lime or eggshells, for instance, that you can prevent BER. That does NOT appear to be true. University field trial experiments have so far failed to show that BER can be prevented by addition of Ca++. Peppers and many cole crops are also susceptible to BER and there's quite a bit of literature on BER and Ca++ for those crops also. The results are the same; addition of Ca++ does not prevent BER.

    Some data strongly suggests that foliar spraying with Ca++ is of no use because not enough gets to the fruits to do any good. And it's known that the sprays for fruits that are sold are useless. No molecules can get across the fruit epidermis. If they did, just what do you think would happen to the fruits when it rained.

    Not all varieties of tomatoes get BER. Some never do, others are horrible. That's not surprising since certainly there are slight physiological differences between varieties. After all, almost all garden tomatoes, with the exception of the currant tomatoes are in the same genus and species, Lycopersicon lycopersicum. And we humans are all in the same species, Homo sapiens, var. sapiens....and look how different some of our physiologies are. Whoa!

    So, BER is a physiological condition, cannot be cured, and current literature data suggests it cannot be prevented. It occurs on some, but not all varieties of tomatoes, is usually seen early in the season and then stops, for most folks. It would be nice to say that you could even out your watering, prevent droughts and heavy rainfalls, ensure even and not rapid growth of plants and not disturb the roots by shallow cultivating. But on a practical basis, I think we all know that's almost impossible. So, BER has never bothered me, I just ignore it, and it goes away with time.

    Adding Ca++ to soils that are Ca++ deficient makes sense, but few soils are. And if soils are acidic, Ca++ is not taken up well but addition of Epsom Salts to the soil can aid in Ca++ uptake in such acidic soils.

    Many folks add Ca++ and then see that BER disappears. What they fail to realize is that BER is going to go away anyway, as the season progresses. And that's because as the plants get larger they are better able to handle the many stresses that can induce it. So one cannot correlate addition of Ca++ to disappearance of BER. Universities have done so many studies on this already because BER is a billion dollar problem in the commercial veggie industry.

    Of all the stresses that can induce BER the two that are most under control of the home gardener are fertilization and water delivery. That is, too much fertilizer causes plants to grow too rapidly and is perhaps one of the major causes of BER developing. Too rich soils do the same thing. Plant growth simply outstrips the ability of Ca++ to get to the fruits.

    Mulching to help ensure even delivery of water can also be done and is also one of the two major causes, in my humble opinion, of BER. BER appears usually on half ripe fruits but also can appear on grass green ones. Lack of Ca++ only occurs at the blossom end of the fruit and it causes tissue destruction which leads to that papery grayish/blackish lesion appearing. Now sometimes that lesion opens up and fungi and bacteria enter and that causes the rotting and also the appearance of fungal growth on and in the lesion.

    Just pick off any BER fruits that appear and soon the next fruits to ripen will BER-less.

    Many books, magazine articles and websites still say to add Ca++ as lime, eggshells, etc, and seem not to be aware of all the research that has been done in the last 20 years. But many books, magazine articles, are now sharing this newer information about addition of Ca++ not being able to either prevent or cure BER except in rare situations of low Ca++ soils or acidic soils.

    I suppose it will take another generation for the right information to be present everywhere. And from my own experience I can tell you that there will be folks who will get madder than can be when they read this kind of info because they simply believe otherwise. So be it. Addition of modest amounts of Ca++ aren't' harmful, but I feel strongly that folks should know what's going on with past and current research re BER and Ca++.

    Carolyn
    NY, Zone 4/5"

    Yes, watering habits have a significant impact on flavor. Most of us realize, and the idea is well supported, that over-watered plants can generally be counted on to yield irriguous fruit with uninspiring flavor. Commonly, over-watering is the main source of dissatisfaction with the flavor of containerized plants. Since I started growing in a soil based on larger particulates (the 5:1:1 mix), which makes it very easy to manage the waterlogging usually associated with the type of soils you advocate (based on fine particulates), I've been unable to differentiate between the flavor of my container-grown tomatoes and those grown in the ground.

    I don't want to seem petty, but since you're taking everything I say apart, it's only fair that we consider how interesting it is that someone would come to a forum and immediately discount methods that have proven extremely effective to so many, and advocate for what appears to be a return to something so similar to what the many I referred to have left behind. Many of us, myself included, regularly have tomato vines that grow well over the top of our tomato cages. My tomatoes are healthy, grow well above the top of my 6' fence year after year - so to the 9-10 ft mark, and offer excellent crop yields and flavorful fruit ..... which is far from your "expectation .... that you will get a FAR from optimal result(s) [using bark-based media]. You should also note that that statement is incongruous with the practical experience of many of the other thread participants as well.

    Finally, I can't even imagine putting myself out on a limb by offering something like, "If you follow her system, your tomato plants will become so big that you must support them with 7 foot tall concrete reinforcing wire cages." Really? I'm wondering if you didn't consider any of the myriad 'what ifs' that popped into my head immediately upon reading that promise - like what if you over/under fertilize/water, have too much/too little sun, get burdened with plants that are/have become diseased ...... And does your friend really grow all the produce for the restaurant you mentioned? Perhaps, but probably not?

    Al


  • TheMasterGardener1
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Yes, watering habits have a significant impact on flavor. Most of us realize, and the idea is well supported, that over-watered plants can generally be counted on to yield irriguous fruit with uninspiring flavor. Commonly, over-watering is the main source of dissatisfaction with the flavor of containerized plants"

    Yes very true. Well said.

  • fortyonenorth
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Carolyn J. Male, Ph.D., is a retired professor of microbiology from the College of Saint Rose in Albany, New York.

    And one might add, Carolyn is the grande damme of tomatoes. She, quite literally, wrote the book.

    DWD - what's your issue with Al? I had hoped you would contribute to the forum some interesting information from an organic perspective. Unfortunately, you seem more interested in calling into question what Al has to say on any matter--regardless of the merits of the argument.

  • DaMonkey007
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    41N, the answer to that question was actually just answered by Carolyn, via Al, above.

    "And from my own experience I can tell you that there will be folks who will get madder than can be when they read this kind of info because they simply believe otherwise. So be it."

    Aye, so be it....

    PJ

  • kathycakes
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi There! This is my first posting so hope all of the truly fantastic and knowledgeable experts out there take pity on me! I have followed this thread for quite awhile now and cannot begin to acknowledge all the incredible education I've received. One question I cannot seem to find an answer to though: everything I have ever read says to wait AT LEAST one week after adding lime (any type) before planting, at least veggies. Since the 5-1-1 calls for dolomitic lime, should I wait at least one week after mixing it up to plant my veggies in it? Thanks to all of you for your great advise! KC

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's better to wait for the lime to finish the reactive phase in (moist) soils before planting, so the residual fraction will be more readily available, but I often make soils and plant in them, same day. I wouldn't get terribly concerned if you happen to be unable to allow the extra time - not the end of the world, as most of us have figured out.

    Al

  • kathycakes
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you so much Al! I've got almost 2 dz very healthy tomato plants I started from seed just itching to get planted. I only have room in my raised bed for 12 of them so was hoping to be able to try your 5-1-1 in my containers. But, of course, I probably won't have time to wait for the lime to 'settle in' before planting 'cause these babies are more than ready to go! On another note, I just want to take the time to thank you for all the incredible work you have obviously put into educating yourself and then sharing with the rest of us. I simply cannot imagine the amount of time I/we have been able to save thanks to you Al. I have come to fully realize that there are many opinions, but I have seldom seen the amount of well-researched, hands-on experience, and contemplative analysis that you provide the world - for free! Thank you!!! (And I'll be sure to keep you up-to-date on my results with some pics.) Happy gardening and happier eating (eventually)! KC

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Awww - you're so kind. Thank you very much!

    {{gwi:2595}} Al

  • kathycakes
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Al - Don't mean to bug you, but since you answered my last question about lime I have had a chance to go back and read a lot more of the posts re: your 5-1-1 and gritty mix. Now I'm in a real dilemma and would once again seek your expertise. I'm in zone 7B/8A (GA) and our summers can be brutally hot and dry (rainwise) but also humid (lots of trees). I'm expecting no less this year. At first I was going with the 5-1-1, but then became fearful of the peat part drying out and that making the entire soil hydrophobic. I do tend to my garden daily (or twice or thrice, etc.), but sometimes I do need to be gone for a day or two and have lost too many plants to someone who just didn't understand the importance of proper watering. For that reason, I then decided I should switch to the gritty mix. But now I'm once again leaning towards the 5-1-1 because these are all for veggies/herbs. (I bet we newbies drive you crazy:)! So once again Great Guru of all Great Soil - what would your best suggestion be? BTW, the containers will be getting 5-6 hrs. of sun, mostly from 10:00 - 3:00/4:00. Thank you so much Al!
    KC

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello!
    My vote goes for the 5-1-1, KC ;-)

    Josh

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That's what I'd do, too. If you are really worried about water retention - the soil is meant to be adjustable by varying the size of the pine bark and the volume of peat, and to some degree, the perlite. You could also include a little vermiculite or Turface fines screened from the Turface for the gritty mix, as I'm pretty sure you have plants that could benefit from being in it (gritty mix).

    Al

  • fortyonenorth
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kathy,

    Don't think that the 5-1-1 is any way an inferior mix. It's not as durable as the gritty mix, but in other respects it's very comparable. For warm season veggies, I've used it for 2 seasons here in the north without any problems whatsoever.

    Once you begin using the mix, you're going to quickly become accustomed to how often you need to water. I should say, however, if you're going to be away for several days during the hottest days of summer you'll definitely need to come-up with a plan for supplemental irrigation - whether it's a helpful neighbor, a rudimentary drip irrigation system, or something else. Lee Valley (and many other catalog suppliers) have an array of options for watering, so you might want to explore some of these. When your tomato plants get big they're going to be sucking up the water very quickly and, regardless of how retentive your mix is, you'll need to be watering regularly. Skipping a few 90 degree days could doom all your hard work.

    After struggling with this same issue for several years, I invested in a drip system for my containerized tomatoes and peppers. It can be done very inexpensively in many cases - depending on the number of containers and whether or not they are centrally located. It's not perfect, but it has helped me reclaim a lot of my summer.

    Good luck!

  • kathycakes
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks guys! This will make my day a lot easier as I already have everything for the 5-1-1 but was having WAY too much trouble finding the Gran-I-Grit. You know, I bet in 20 years no one will be left that knows about chickens and grit. It's scary. I have read so many posts on these threads and have had the same experience about "Duh?" looks when seeking these very simple ingredients. Oh well, on to the garden! I hope neither of you have been hit with the snow storm yesterday. Talk about a dampere on everything! Thanks again. KC

  • DWD2
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ideal2545, did you ever expect all this when you asked about a growing mix for your tomatoes and peppers?

    I had hoped to get back to this sooner, but life has been very busy the last number of weeks and I had a limited amount of time I could devote to scholarship on this.

    Tapla, I have no idea where or by whom the quotes you apparently want to present as authoritative relative to Ca:Mg ratios and "antagonistic deficiency" were generated. I said in my post above, "I can find no science demonstrating a Ca:Mg ratio that must be maintained to prevent an "antagonistic deficiency." Once again, I'd love to see a reference." Since you refused to provide a reference, I did my own search.

    The concept of an optimal Ca:Mg ratio is contained in the theory called the basic cation saturation ratio (BCSR). BCSR also includes potassium in the theory that holds that certain ratios of calcium, magnesium & potassium cations must be maintained for optimal plant growth. Loew and May, mentioned in your quote, published this notion in 1901. I am providing everyone a link to a review that discusses the development and then the discarding of the BCSR concept. It has been proven SCIENTIFICALLY to be incorrect about 30 years ago. The authors conclude their review stating, "The data do not support the claims of the BCSR, and continued promotion of the BCSR will result in the inefficient use of resources in agriculture and horticulture."
    https://www.agronomy.org/publications/sssaj/articles/71/2/259

    The authors do point out in the review that many soil testing labs push BCSR because it sells more fertilizer. Their implication is that the 2 industries are linked in many cases. I do not know if that is true or not, but one would not be surprised if it is true.

    Another publication entitled "Calcium-Magnesium Ratios: Setting the Record Straight" from the University of Minnesota ends with the statement, "It's an outdated, antique concept that has no value in high yield, modern agriculture."
    http://www.extension.umn.edu/cropenews/2003/03mncn07.htm

    I can not find the origin of the following quote, but it appears on a lot of sites around the web. According to Dr. Stanley Barber, Purdue University, "There is no research justification for the added expense of obtaining a definite Ca:Mg ratio in the soil. Research indicates that plant yield or quality is not appreciably affected over a wide range of Ca:Mg ratios in the soil." Dr. Barber, who died in 2002, was a member of the US National Academy of Sciences for 15 years and is possibly the premier figure in the development of soil science.
    http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/support/library/ff/Ca_Basics.htm

    It now makes sense why I could find no mention of any of this in Marschner's Mineral Nutrition of Higher Plants. It is because these concepts were scientifically discarded about 30 years ago.

    Relative to BER, I almost do not know where to start. In my post, I provided a link to a 2005 review that is authored by one of the leaders in scientific research on BER. Dr. Ho has a VERY long list of publications about BER. Tapla responded with a quote from Dr. Carolyn Male of unknown source and date. When I check Dr. Male's publication history on pubmed and google scholar, I can only find 3 publications, none of which have anything to do with BER. I do see that she authored a book in 1999 entitled "Smith & Hawken: 100 Heirloom Tomatoes for the American Garden." From what I can read of it on Google, it looks like a good book, but it is out of print. I am also aware that she was for a number of years a major figure in Seed Savers Exchange much to her credit. All of which is fine, but I am betting if one asks Dr. Male where her understanding of the molecular mechanisms driving BER is derived, she will say through reading the scientific literature. I also bet if you ask her who knows more about BER, herself or Dr. Ho, she will say Dr. Ho. I do not say this to belittle Dr. Male in any way. I presume she is a very smart, capable person. But the quote you provide from her appears antiquated. I do not find it particularly enlightening. If Dr. Male is the scientist you believe her to be, I feel pretty certain she will acknowledge that she can not preclude the possibility that there could be sets of growing conditions where egg shells contribute in preventing BER during tomato growth. Once again, everyone can choose which source(s) of information to depend upon to further their understanding and inform their growing decisions.

    Tapla is clearly very generous with his time and appears to genuinely want to be helpful. He is apparently a very skilled bonsai practitioner. When I first started reading Tapla's posts, I thought he must really know his stuff. However, as I read more of his posts, I kept reading statements that were scientifically nonsensical. As I read more & more of the plant biology and horticultural literature, I came to the realization that Tapla simply does not understand what he is talking about much of the time and offers explanations that are frequently WAY off the mark like the notion of antagonisms between Ca:Mg and his use of calcium magnesium ratios. He uses big, scientific sounding words, but what he writes is often simply gibberish. It is my impression that the solutions Tapla suggests, while typically workable at some level, often direct people away from other workable solutions that are potentially much more attractive to many, or even most, of the folks out there trying to solve a growing problem or simply grow bigger or faster or cheaper, etc. In no way am I saying that the solutions Tapla promotes are unworkable. They typically do appear to be workable. However, after a lot of research, I have chosen other approaches that work for me that Tapla contends should not. In trying to understand Tapla's approaches, I have NEVER seen Tapla point anyone to a scientific publication that supports his opinions. I have seen him post authoritative sounding quotes as he does above but I have never seen a reference that allows you to go read the larger work. I have seen plenty of people, me included, ask to be directed to those references or the experiments/experience that support his statements only to be ignored by Tapla, which in my professional world as a scientist is a sin second only to lying about data. Not good. Certainly in science, and I believe in most aspects of life, there is true value in sharing sources of information when trying to solve a problem or transmit knowledge. I try to do this in all my posts and I happily note others do too. Sharing information sources provides everyone with the opportunity to review positions based on shared information. ALL of us get things wrong from time to time. Providing people with the body of information you used to get from A to B empowers anyone who wishes to review the thinking and point out any apparent mistakes or short-comings. Tapla's routine refusal to direct anyone to source material has a very direct underlying message. A person who does this sort of thing is saying by his/her action that he/she believes you are too stupid to read source material or examine how a particular experiment was performed and come to your own judgment. He/she is saying by his/her action that he/she is privy to knowledge that only he/she can understand and interpret. As insults go, it is very demeaning. I hope everyone recognizes that this insult is directed at each and every person that reads this forum. At another level, it is a power game that puts the individual with a "superior knowledge" which is unattainable to the rest of the poor souls out there in a position to always have the last word. As I said above, it is a behavior that there is NO tolerance for in science.

    Fortyonenorth, you ask what my issue is with Tapla. It is his behaviors that I describe above. He constantly portrays himself as scientific and then behaves in a manner that NO ONE in science has any tolerance for and is DEEPLY offensive and insulting to anyone who cares about science.

    In the initial part of Tapla's response to a post of mine on the Figs 4 Fun forum, he for whatever reason found it necessary to recite some of his credentials rather than agree with or disagree with or even discuss the substantive points I had raised in that post. Credentials do not make statements correct or incorrect. If an explanation to a question is correct, I do not believe it matters whether it came from someone who never graduated from high school or someone who earned a PhD from Harvard. My understanding is that a primary purpose of this and similar forums to share experiences and information to help each other have better growing experiences. Part of that process should be discussion from shared information sources and rational disagreement if needed. When the issues have a scientific component or are informed by my practical experiences, I will try to add to the discourse. Sorry to go on so.

    Good luck with your gardens!

  • DaMonkey007
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dam B, them is fightin' words!

  • fortyonenorth
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    DWD - I'm not sure to what degree they play a role in container culture but, to be sure, the subject of cation ratios in field grown crops is controversial. You usually see the biodynamic and organic folks come down on the side of advocating for ratios and the chemical/yield proponents advocating against them. Agronomists Carey Reams and William Albrecht point to specific ratios as being "ideal." Other researchers have found that on some soils plants will yield equally well over a wide range of cation ratios. So, the controversy isn't whether ratios are relavant - they most certainly are - the issue is to what degree they matter. Interestingly, Reams and Albrecht were "feed the soil" proponents. They believed that creating an ideal environment for plant growth would lead to the best crops - not simply in terms of yield, but in terms of yield, flavor and, most importantly, nutritional value. Their "ideal" ratios were an important part of their holistic approach. For example, the ratio of Ca:Mg has a significant impact on soil structure and aeration. While someone from the Albrecht school might strive to achieve great soil (in part) through balancing calcium and magnesium, "feed the plant" people might say "the hell with it..." it's easier and cheaper for me rip my fields every year and pour on the NPK.

    Based on your previous posts, it's ironic that you're so eager to dismiss the idea of cation ratios. I think if you looked beyond the university research (which, of course, is funded by industrial agriculture and chemical companies) and read a few good books on the subject, you might see things differently. I would recommend Neil Kinsey's seminal, "Hands on Agronomy" for starters. Bill McKibben also has a new title on the subject, "Balancing Soil Nutrients."

    In terms of the one article you quoted suggesting that soil testing labs which use BCSR to sell more fertilizer, I think that is a very irresponsible statement. Of course, in some cases, balancing cations might lead one to apply "more" ferts, in an equal number of cases, it would lead to less application. Some critics even charge that BCSR might lead to under applying fertilizers. Incidentally, I've found that BCSR labs are more often in sympathy with a sustainable approach, whereas many of the same voices that dismiss BCSR balancing as "antique" are those at the forefront of "modern" agronomy, i.e. advocating for the widespread use of GMO crops, synthetic pesticides, and the like.

    I understand you want to challenge Al on the issue, but bone-up on the subject first and develop a well-balanced understanding. I really think you will see things differently.

  • carolyn137
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cut and pasted from above:

    (Relative to BER, I almost do not know where to start. In my post, I provided a link to a 2005 review that is authored by one of the leaders in scientific research on BER. Dr. Ho has a VERY long list of publications about BER. Tapla responded with a quote from Dr. Carolyn Male of unknown source and date. When I check Dr. Male's publication history on pubmed and google scholar, I can only find 3 publications, none of which have anything to do with BER. I do see that she authored a book in 1999 entitled "Smith & Hawken: 100 Heirloom Tomatoes for the American Garden." From what I can read of it on Google, it looks like a good book, but it is out of print. I am also aware that she was for a number of years a major figure in Seed Savers Exchange much to her credit. All of which is fine, but I am betting if one asks Dr. Male where her understanding of the molecular mechanisms driving BER is derived, she will say through reading the scientific literature. I also bet if you ask her who knows more about BER, herself or Dr. Ho, she will say Dr. Ho. I do not say this to belittle Dr. Male in any way. I presume she is a very smart, capable person. But the quote you provide from her appears antiquated. I do not find it particularly enlightening. If Dr. Male is the scientist you believe her to be, I feel pretty certain she will acknowledge that she can not preclude the possibility that there could be sets of growing conditions where egg shells contribute in preventing BER during tomato growth. Once again, everyone can choose which source(s) of information to depend upon to further their understanding and inform their growing decisions.)

    *****

    I'm the Carolyn Male you've been referring to. My academic publications had to do with IGA1 proteases synthesized by some important bacteria such as H. influenzae and others. And that was from my stint at the U of Colorado Medical school where I taught med studentsa for many years and before that the same at the U of Rochester Med School and before that a BS from Cornell.

    The article that was quoted from is one that I wrote many years ago at the AOL tomato Forum and I've found that folks picked up on it and it's found at several sites.

    I stand by what I said then. I've spent decades researching tomato related issues and that includes BER and I disagreee with many comments that have been made above. And yes, I know who Dr. Ho is, he's been discussed quite thoroughly at another message site.

    And yes, I also know Cynthia Sandberg, I forgot the name of her first husband, and have known her for years and know how she's expanded her business to give all the lectures and what all, and there was recent thread in the TOmato Forum here about her suggesting putting fishheads in the planting hole. Several years ago she asked if she could visit me b'c she was coming East with her son to visit the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, NY, but it didn't happen/

    However, I was broadly trained and have taught courses on molecular genetics, biochemistry, environmental Microbiology and so much more. And yes, I moved back home from Denver in I think it was 1982 in order to take care of my elderly parents and that's when I started teaching at the College of St Rose, a private liberal arts college in Albany NY, and retired in 1999 due to mobility problems, viz two new hips, after falling at the local high school and severing all four quads in my right leg so have had to use a walker since then, oh, also bilateral cataract surgery and yet another kidney stone.

    Just call me the bionic woman.LOL

    And yes, I've been a member of SSE since 1989 and a very active one at that.A good friend Craig LeHoullier, who named Cherokee Purple, raises all my plants for me and sends them up here and Shoe and Lee in NC and Neil in IL do all the seed production for me. Freda does all the gardening for me here at home.

    Although I'm a Lifetime member of SSE I'll be deleting almost all of my current 2012 listings b'c I make one large seed offer each year at another site and that for an SASE and get far more feedback from that then I ever got from SSE members. And there are other reasons I'm stepping back from SSE as well.

    The last time I grew 7-800 plants and several hundreds of varieties was the summer of 2004 since I fell in Dec of 2004. And that was at the old farm where I was raised where we had acres and acres of tomatoes and I was helping out my dad when I was about five, or so. To date I've grown out about 3,200 tomato varieties.

    Finally, as I was reading through this thread I saw quite a few comments about K and that's something that recently gave me some trouble. I fell twice in Feb, the last one was horrible and at the hospital it was determined that my K level was only 2.4. which is a critical level, so I was ASAP transferred to the cardiac unit. Trust me, bananas would NOT have helped.

    It was interesting reading through this thread b'c there will never be agreement, that is, consensus, on anything, trust me on that. having a scientific background I'm amazed at how many folks NEVER use controls when trying something out, and academic researchers are not exempt either.

    Yes, my book is now out of print and copies are going for several hundreds of dollars at many places. LOL I have four pristine copies here at home and am waiting until the price reaches about $1000 and then I'll cash in. LOL

    And no I didn't make a bucket of money from the book I still owed them 26 K in book sales, mainly b'c of the color photography, but had a generous advance anyway. I was asked to write the book by Workman Press who were under contract to Smith and Hawken and didn't do it to make money, rather to share what I know about tomatoes and give some specific examples and some of the them were NOT my faves at all but I wanted to illustrate heirlooms vs OP's, those from deliberate breeding, etc.

    many have asked me to do a second hundred, a third, but I can't being chained to this walker, but some have also asked me to consider writing a book about the histories of some of my fave varieties.

    I have a lot of knowledge about that, she said tapping her head, and when I'm gone that knowledge is gone as well unless some of it has been picked up at the many different message sites where I've participated in the past. I'll be 73 in June, love dark bittersweet chocolate even though I'm a diabetic, so if you wish to send chocolate and/or flowers, here I am. LOL

    If you have any questions about what I wrote or I didn't express myself clearly enough, please just post them in this thread although since I've never been to this Forum I don't know when I'll be back and long ago I had to give up answering questions that were sent to me off GW,mainly from the Tomato Forum, so not a good things to do.

    And now to watch tennis from Madrid b'c tennis is also one of my passions along with, well, several other strong interests I have.

    Carolyn, who has signed off as Carolyn ever since she went online. Dr. Carolyn was part of my academic life, Carolyn is what I use in my private life.