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The Dark Garden: Alternate container idea

georgeiii
17 years ago

This is an idea you can use for tomato's. You can add a wick to use the base as a water storage or with just sand to weight it down. You can get good ideas on the media or the mix you can use here. Drill 3 - 1/8th " holes in the top bottle where the cone of the bottle ends. These are the carburators. Only fill up to the holes with water. Now these are reuseable. I paint mine black to give me a head start on the season. Now probly till July you will only have to water once a day but as it heats up it will be twice a day.

{{gwi:8061}}

Comments (47)

  • justaguy2
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't get it.

  • georgeiii
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    OK, what part don't you get?

  • justaguy2
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't get what a carburetor is within the context of this container setup.
    I don't get why you call a soda bottle as a container 'The Dark Garden' or 'Dark Method'. What's so unique about what you are doing that it warrants the odd sounding name? It looks like a top heavy self watering container.

    What am I missing?

  • valentinetbear
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Justa, actually, Georgii has quite an interesting idea (and I see he is updating and experiementing more with it,) even if many get upset with his motives. The problem you're probably having is the purpose in such a system for plants, when more conventional containers would seem to work just as well. BUT I plan to try it this summer, because of my limited space for a garden and because, despite being limited to containers to garden, I want to grow popcorn! LOL

    Justa, you will understand better, if you see his pictures from a post made last year, plus get a sense of why people might be upset with him (if you even care to learn about the debated aspect of the whole argument.) As I said before, the motives may, or may not be suspicious, but it's still a good idea to learn about, in case you can see how you can use his method for your container gardening. Here's one link -- http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/accessible/msg0620593924465.html?15845

    And for even more pictures, and a clearer understanding, search "The Dark Garden" as a general topic on these forums, because Georgii has been doing this for a couple of years now, posting enough pictures to help you understand the whole concept.

    Honestly, I think he has something well worth considering. I'm not one to dismiss an intriguing idea, merely because some get upset about motives. My husband and I are both disabled, so cannot do all of his suggestions, but I promise you it is something worth spending some time considering.

    And, no, for the record, I don't know Georgii, passed having written to him a couple of times on this forum, so am getting nothing from him by seeing this as a positive container gardening concept. At worst, I'm probably setting myself up for arguments from those, who don't like his methods of promoting his idea, but it's such an interesting idea, I figure everyone should decide for themselves, what they can use it for in their gardens.

    If it works, I should be eating home grown popcorn next fall. And they say drinking too much soda pop isn't a good idea! Ha! LOL

  • georgeiii
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Is this a help?
    {{gwi:8062}}

  • lilion
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Okay, I have to bite. I find the idea intriguing. But I can't help but be skeptical. How do you grow something so large, like peppers and tomatoes, etc. in such a small containter as a 2 or 3 liter bottle? Don't you wind up with a container stuffed of roots and little or no soil by the end of the season? I've done patio tomatoes in three-gal buckets and that the smallest I can imagine any success with. By the end of the season the fruit was barely cherry-sized. Don't you require an awful lot of fertilizer?

  • georgeiii
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hahhaaaa ahhh me Don't mind I was just setting up another page to sent but having trouble with photobucket. Must be my security setting. But that part is explained further back in my "history". There plenty of it. Grab a coffee and donut, sit back and read. There's pictures too. This is all about roots. If you think that this is cool wait till you see the Tomato Water Falls. That will look hot on a deck. I'm talking about full sized plants and vegetables. I'm talking about bees that had to walk home because their carrying so much pollen. I'm talking about squrills, rabbets and racoons passed out on your lawn indiscuss because how how fat you'll make them. On a deck. And please read why I do this as well. Fertilizer which kind? Chemical, urine or fish tea. All work just as well.

  • justaguy2
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Is there anywhere you simply present your method in full so one doesn't have to read posts from years ago to present to try and piece this together?

    Like a web page or a post that covers everything from a to z?

    So far I get that you grow stuff in soda bottles, say the roots are somehow different and plants thrive to the point of making obese rodents (not sure why I would want that), but what I am still missing is what I would actually do to use your method.

    The season for outdoor container gardening has already begun for some and isn't far off for the rest so if you wish to have people try out your method this season time is running short for a simple, clear and complete explanation of 'the dark method'.

    I still don't get what you are going on about and frankly while I am willing to consider what you have to say, it will have to be concise, I am not going to go hunting all over the place or through multiple years of posts to try and figure out your method.

  • lilion
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yeah, gotta agree with justaguy2. I did some searches and I saw some photos, but George you tend to ramble. Looking at a photo with some half-grown corn doesn't tell me that it works, just that it works to a point. Granted, there's some impressive size on some of those plants, but do you have photo's that show your wonderful tomatoes with fruit on the vine? Do you have photo's of the corn mature with the cobs ready to harvest? Why the heck call it "the dark method" and the bottle a carburator anyway? Can't you just say "I do it this way and this is why and this is how it works."? That would be very interesting and informative.

  • georgeiii
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sorry I thought we already had a conversation about this. No matter, understanding is what it's about. If you can't understand the method understand the toys. Last year someone mentioned that it was naughty to use carriers to grow in. (Like I hadn't thought of that years before) Last year I was just showing how small a ratio of roots area to plant I can grow. If you don't want to go back why should I care? This is a public forum and we're discussing idea's. I can tell you right now those so called nay sayers are trying to do what I showed last year. Now let's continue about this year. This is Art. You don't need all this to grow tomato's and corn. You can but why? You can grow corn in a simple 2 liter bottle 8 to a tray. And yes there's pictures of that too right here. I didn't mention that if you spray paint the upper bottle place a strip of tape along the side so once the bottle is painted you can peel off the strip to see if the plant needs water. There's two ways this can be done. First find a sturdy piece of towel to cut into strips. Tie a knot in the middle and push thru the hole in the bottom into the lower bottle. Leave enough to curl on the bottum. Use alligator clip to hold the upper endstraight up. Fill the space up to the carburator holes with perilite. Then fill the rest of the space with regular potting soil. (Before you fill it all the way make a cradle out of the towel you have left. Then finish filling. The plant will sit on that.) All the space right to the rim. Also because of the 1" hole only seedling grown in a 72 cell chamber will work. Or something similier. Fertilize from the top, water from the bottom. Now don't water from the bottom until the second set of flowers appear. (cut of the first) Second way is to block off the bottom altogether. Do the same thing with the perilite and potting soil. I have these in my Garden as Art. Zen markers if that helps understanding.

  • lilion
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That's certainly a better explaination. And I DID look for the old threads and saw a number of photos, but as I stated before, none appeared to show mature plants with fruit. Still, I may have to try this myself, just to see if it works.

    I still don't get "carburator holes". Just put in 3 1/8" holes about where the bottle starts to narrow? Why do that? And I guess you water from the top until the leaves? And how often do you fertilize?

    Have you ever done cucumbers?

  • justaguy2
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Who are the naysayers, George?

    From googling you appear to post in many places with few to no interested responses.

    Here you get interested responses saying 'I don't get your method'. That's not naysaying.

    You make specific claims about reality, but offer nothing in the way of proof or even simple explanation. The whole business about root toxicity being proportional to reproductive capacity left me confuzzled.

    Then you said plants grow in the dark leaving me to wonder what you mean for me to take away from the statement.

    Then you said that your method of growing in recycled soda bottles resulted in increased pressure which resolved the problem of reverse osmosis from excessive salts in the growing media. I am still scratching my head trying to figure out how growing in an upside down soda bottle increases any kind of pressure let alone how that pressure resolves reverse osmosis.

    In short, I haven't a clue what the heck you are going on about. You either have the worst communication skills I have ever seen (being an 'artist' doesn't excuse that) or you are deliberately being vague.

    Tell me plainly, concisely and clearly what the dark gardening method is and how I can do it myself to evaluate it please.

    I would like to try it, but still don't have the first clue how to go about it other than needing to acquire a bunch of 2 liter soda bottles that look ghetto and some spray paint to make them look less ghetto.

    What are you going on about? What's wrong with a 1,2,3 step by step instruction on how to do your method?

    How do you expect anything but skepticism when you are either unwilling or unable to communicate with reasonable clarity?

  • georgeiii
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Actually I think I explained it quite well. As for skepticism who cares. What, your some kind of business owner and your worried. Sorry my conserations are a little more lofty. Give it a try or don't. It won't matter to me. I got pictures and designs anyone can follow. And they will. Look again at that bottle....yeah people are going try this.
    Now yes I grew cucumber with this but don't wait too long to figure out how you want to work your support the vines break easy. As for fertiizing, chemical once a month, fish twice a month.

  • justaguy2
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Actually I think I explained it quite well.

    Funny, I am of reasonable intelligence with above average reading comprehension and don't have a clue as to what your method is. As for skepticism who cares.

    Everyone who doesn't automatically place faith in everything they read? What, your some kind of business owner and your worried.

    Nope. Sorry my conserations are a little more lofty.

    Not lofty, just incomprehensible. Give it a try or don't.

    Given that I haven't a clue how to try it I would say it is a safe bet I don't:can't try it.

    Good luck with your endeavors. If you wish to criticize those who ask for sufficient information to put your method into practice I can only conclude you are suffering from a mental illness.

    Perhaps that explains your voluminous posts to other sites offering only teasers as to your method with no full explanation in sight.

    If you ever feel like using the English language to actually provide a comprehensible explanation of what the dark gardening method is and how to do it I will consider it, but until then I can't conclude anything other than you are incapable or unwilling to speak clearly.

    I trust other readers are intelligent enough to conclude whether you speak clearly enough to understand or not understand why you grow in recycled soda bottles, why you spray paint them, what you mean by pressure in the bottles overcoming reverse osmosis, plants growing in the dark, root toxicity being proportional to reproductive capacity and all your other nonsense, but for me I just don't get it and doubt there is anything to get.

    Somehow I suspect you just want sympathetic suckers to email you for more info so you can sell them something.

    I could be wrong, but only a clear, concise explanation of the 'Dark Gardening Method' would indicate such and at this point I really doubt such an explanation is forthcoming without a paypal donation.

  • georgeiii
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    So now your done? Thank you for sharing. But for those of you who arent so challenged let me carry this subject a little further. That being what to once your done growing your plant. WhatÂs the easiest way to clean up and recharge. .You can use all Perilite in the bottles. For those of you who are handicapped that means only the weight of the water in the lower bottle. Now the problem with all Perilite is that salts will build up so the top bottle will need to be flushed once a month. Use about a liter of fresh water. Hell you may not even have to. (Many ways to do the same thing) I always thought that was a waste of water which is why I donÂt use that. Now hereÂs what amuses me about my former conversation. My not so humble mumble. What does it cost you to try this idea? Now if you have to itÂs alright to count with your fingers. Sorry I didnÂt hear that? Now, hahhaaah your going to sent me what? I give you an idea for a piece of Art for your garden you can make yourself. Close your eyes. Can you imagine 20, of these lined up in your garden, driveway, deck, pool. How bout 100 of them in 10 rows of 10. Standing next to each other. How much room would that take. You want to impress someone. Grow a thousand and make a corn maze in your backyard. Since the whole thing moves take it to a friends house for their birthday. Grow 10,000 to benefit your school. A hundred thousand to start a business. ThatÂs only one of the ideas these hands are going to bring. ThereÂs The Garden Pod, The Fareiy circle, The Nanny Pod, Tomato Waterfalls, PotatoÂs In A Bucket, The Bean Machine (to name a few) and more plant sculptures because we havenÂt even talked about cabbage yet. Grow Moonflowers on a concrete walk. Tie Swiss Chard and spinach to a fence to pick each time you pass by. Add some cherry tomato too. What you got no imagination no wonder in your soul. Then your really going to get pissed at me and we just met. IÂm looking to turn the whole world green and IÂm going to do it with a (haaahahahaaa) recycled plastic bottle in my hand. So you want to be a dinosaur or a horse drawn carriage itÂs fine with me. A lot of people donÂt know what makes a car go but that doesnÂt stop them from driving hell and gone

  • lilion
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Georgii, your method may work. Time will tell. But the plain and simple fact is your posts are so full of rambling gibberish and hyperbole that they are very difficult to read and pretty much impossible to understand. I wonder if English is not your first language? I think I managed to wrangle enough information to give it a try just for the heck of it to see what happens. I never plant a whole four-pack of tomatoes when I buy them, so I'll use one I'd normally toss and see how it works.

    Frankly, I couldn't possibly care less about pressure, reverse osmosis or root toxicity being proportional to reproductive capacity. "Huh?" I don't want the "science" I want the mechanics and I suspect that's all the vast majority of people care about. Best of luck to you but if you want more folks to try this you need to learn to be a writer as well as an artist.

  • valentinetbear
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I had plans to grow some popcorn in soda bottles this year, after reading about Gerogii's idea last summer. Yes, there are no pictures showing any produce coming off the plants. Corn stalks are cool looking, but worthless without corn.

    And then I read about toxicity, and all this added work to avoid the problem. Two reasons I wanted to try this out -- limited gardening space and disabled. Not sure how much 2 liters of moist soil plus a corn stalk weigh, but chances are good that, if I got enough corn to grow that they could pollinate each other, I wouldn't have the time, or strength to do this, so would simply poison myself.

    Also true, no clear explanation. Maybe, if you weren't so worried about proving that you don't care if some have problems with your ideas, Georgii, those of us interested in learning how to do it, could have had clear directions on how, not only to make the growing containers, but how to deal with so much root for so little area, or how to maintain adequate nutrition for our produce grown this way.

    You had, at least, three people interested (30 if the general rule for forums is correct -- 90% lurkers/10% posters), and you managed to make everyonee, including me, either simply walk away from the idea, or experiment with the bottles on their own, in hopes of figuring out how to do it.

    It really didn't matter, if we were business owners or not. You were presenting an idea, without ever truly giving anyone a chance to understand it.

    Truly, all that has come of this is wasted time. Good luck. I'm sure you will laugh this off, too, and no doubt will post on several forums, receiving the same results.

  • georgeiii
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have to hang my head here a moment, if you don't know how to make the bottles why don't you just say I don't know how to make the bottles. You think there's some special trick to this. Well let's have Bottle Design Class 101. I'll show pictures from the time the botttles come out the recycling bin to the unpainted finish. Now I've said that I'm having trouble with Photobucket uploading pictures, any suggestions?

  • grvtykllr
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    OK I read all of this thread, I think I figured out the point of the whole thing, with out going back to the old threads.
    I do belive you need to do a bottle making 101, with pics and details about WHY this or that is done. but aside from that lack of complete info let me ask if I figured it out to some drgree on my own.

    First off the name, its just fun, its like naming your car, it doenst need one but many people have one for a car, or boat or what ever. This case the bottles are black, ( I belive there is a reason for that as well) so why not have some fun and call it the dark garden? If I tell a buddy about it its pretty easy to find this page from google with information like the dark garden and it hurts noone to call it this.
    second its dark because of heat.
    Seeds sprout and grow faster with the right heat, Greenhouses work on that principal as well.
    The dark color soaks up more heat then a clear bottle, it also looks a bit differnt than some soda bottles stuck to some juice containers. It looks more like it belongs on te patio instead o flike trash that forgot to get tossed.
    The carbs are going to let in air to teh soil, the bottle on bottom is for the water. It is self watering yes?
    the clear strip on the bottle lets you check soil for water.
    Now when we get to the toxic stuff and all of that Im lost, I didnt read it in this thread and have yet to go looking for it.
    As to the question of we we do this in that amount of dirt, and at the end of the season we have a plant with all roots and no dirt... Who cares?
    thats the end of the season, the plant served its purpose, its over and done. Thereis nutrients being added by chemical fertalizers once a month and the fish 2 times pre month.

    Didi I miss something? is there somethign I forgot to metnion about the dark method ?
    it seems to make sense to me with a few small details that I figure we all would learn on our own from trying it. Id rather have those upfront and build on someones mistakes that already made them instead of repeating them for myself, but I think that the information I got here is enough to get me started in trying this out for myself.
    Now georgiii, anythign I missed? any explanations for the design you want to add? any tips for getting started? and how about that bottle making 101 request?
    I think I can figure it out on my own, but just in case....

  • georgeiii
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Now I have that Bottle 101 information ready. It's got plenty of pictures. It would probly be easiest for me to just to email it to someone and have them post it. And yes grvtykllr your right with every point. It makes me feel someone actually read my posts. But please don't go back to the toxic stuff it seems to drive people crazy.

  • georgeiii
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    {{gwi:8063}}

    {{gwi:8064}}

    {{gwi:8065}}

    Now someone brought up about this picture

    {{gwi:8066}}

    What's wrong with this corn. It has the right number of rows and is the right size. It just didn't get pollenated right because

    {{gwi:8067}}

    The Dark Gardening Method allows you to grow crops so dense new problems arise you have to figure out. I learned what the problem was right here on the GardenWeb. I didn't even have to ask anyone.

  • lilion
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    YAY! Now THAT'S a post I understand! Thank you very much Georgii! And I can actually SEE that the corn produced!

    I very much appreciate your work clearing this up! You really should consider getting a web page - even just a blog - where you can put this information if you'd like other folks to try it.

    Thanks again.

  • grvtykllr
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It all looks like its pretty straight forward, and after I skipped around later last night and read up on it a bit more it started making more sense.
    The bottle making instructions help alot, give me the pointers only expereince teaches like the velcro covers to keep bugs out opposed to a big hole thats always open or has a duct tape curtain over it.
    We go through alot of 2 litre soda bottles around my house and we have 3 year old that drinks alot of juice instead of soda so with in a week I should have enough supplys to get started on making my own dark garden. I currently live in a condo with a 20 x 25 patio, and half of that is a waterfall and dirt burms for hostas so I dont have alot of room, this may be exactly what I need to have a few plants that are not just decoration growing here. My mom bought a big house and Im doing major repairs to her yard, and building a garden there, and pond, and fences and planting trees in a bare land scape and 2 decks and on and on. I was also thinking about getting stuff going in these pots and transplanting them as I get the flower beds and burms built up.
    She has 5 trees, all bare root stock, shipped in dormant, Those come first, get them in these pots and get em going till the weather is warm enough to stick em in the ground.
    That project alone, with your ideas on the dark garden, may well of saved a couple hundred dollars in trees and plants !
    This stuff should get us through till I can get the green house built, and keep me with my patio in a garden of sorts at home instead of driving 20 miles each way to have one at my moms in the left over space she has that wont be in actual yard.

  • denalilofts
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Georgeiii,

    Ive been away from all the forum lately and have just recently started getting caught up on all the great posts. I read you post for the first time today start to finish. I must say I am still laughing at the thought of a corn maze in all these plastic bottles nicely spaced around a large yard. When I read your statement "take them to a friends house for their birthday and set up a corn maze in their yard" I about fell out of my chair. This though still puts a smile on my face.

    Anyway, I like the idea. Folks growing hydroponically can get away with very small containers simply because small spaces are all thats required if the plant is getting all it needs. I dont see why there would be any difference as long as the plant is happy. Look at the earth box I think in the ads they had several corn plants in one container.

    Living in Alaska and all the obstacles involved with growing anything but giant cabbage, I look for any shortcuts or advantages I can get to try a tomato or the like. The problem is we dont have the heat or the growing season. As I write the high for today is about 34 degrees and I still have waist deep snow in the yard. Not only that these forums are full of great recipes for growing mediums of which half the ingredients I can even buy up here. So keep the good ideas rolling!!

  • leslie135
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am just thrilled to have gotten into this thread today and gotten the benefits of grvtykllr's synopsis of georgeiii's awesome designs and ideas without having to go back to all the previous threads to figure it out. Being a teacher, I see it all the time--a student will explain something in writing with total clarity to himself and noone else will have a clue what he's talking about. The student knows everything from start to finish so all the little tips and techniques and explanations thereof are skipped over to get to the meat of his writing endeavor. This may be what happened here with georgeiii's explanation, but thankfully grvtykllr cleared it up for all of us. Georgiii, thank you for bringing this delightful-looking concept to us, I'm anxious to try it for myself, and I'm a complete novice, never grown anything other than house plants and bedding plants in a huge home with a massive yard. Now I'm relegated to a tiny apartment with an 8x13 balcony, so this may be just the ticket for me. Valentinetbear, I hope you will still give it a try and it works out for you. And denalilofts, bless your heart, Dallas is nice 9 months of the year, ever considered moving somewhere a bit more temperate? Of course during June, July, and August, I wouldn't mind relocating to Alaska myself!

  • adayfromnow
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    LOL - I have to say that this has been about the most entertaining string of posts I've read on this site. I had no idea that gardening enthusiasts could get so snippy! Too funny. Anyway...

    I am a total newbie when it comes to gardening and am very environmentally conscious. I'm also on a very tight budget, and don't have the greatest soil. Since I try reuse or recycle as much as possible, I had to check out the post about the "Alternate Container Idea". Needless to say, I was/am very interested in learning about georgeii's method.

    I guess you could say that I'm on both sides of the fence about this debate. Being a newbie, I don't understand all of the arguments posted by those of you who are obviously very experienced gardeners (To tell the truth, I still don't know the difference between a flat and a cell pack, but that's another subject.) I am trying to learn as much as I can, but in the meantime, those arguments that were along the lines of "why not just use this, that or the other thing" pretty much went right over my head. However, in your defense...

    While I am still learning, and am still very interested in georgeii's idea, I do agree that it's quite the challenge just to put the pieces of his ramblings together in a way that makes them comprehensible. Sorry, georgeii, but you do babble.

    Well, that's my two cents on the "debate". I want to thank georgeii for the idea. Regardless of what anyone thinks about the concept, I think it's great that you're trying something new and environmentally conscious. I also want to thank you for posting the instructions, and also thank grvtykllr for clearing it up even further.

  • justaguy2
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Georgeii's idea is easily summarized. Sorry, but this is going to seem really rude to those with great ability for empathy.

    Simply look at the stupid looking, deformed corn cob that absolutely none of you would pay a single cent for at the grocery.

    It's great that it has the correct number of rows and all that, but let's just be honest. Would any of you pay 1 cent for that cob?

    Recycling is great, but Georgeii's 'method' is nothing more than using recycled containers that are too small for most plants as self watering containers that require 2 or more waterings per day in hot weather (what's the point of a self watering container if one has to refill 2x daily?).

    All the crap about root toxicity being proporational to reproductive capacity is just that. Complete and utter crap with no scientific or even earthly basis.

    Like I said, those of you with an instinct toward empathy won't like what I have to say, but the reality is Georgeii's method is simply stupid, anti scientific and judging from the pictures produces crappy plants.

    Go ahead and call me insensitive and worse things, but just ask yourself a simple question. Would you pay even 1 cent for the corn cob in the photo?

    I hate being the ahole, but sometimes somebody has to do it.

  • georgeiii
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My, my....If you get upset over this model what are you going to do about the other 9? What about growing in buckets? Didn't I show pictures last year of my potato's? It's true there's somethings that won't grow well in the first model. Cabbage, brocclli, fennel, squash and about 4 more I think. But there's other models that will. Nobody loses anything trying this. It's all free. But how bout we try something different? How bout a trip to the market? We can pick out vegetables and beans we can grow in our new gardens ourselves. Anybody interested? Or how about growing GIANT PUMPKINBS out of 5 gallon buckets. As far as I'm concerned think of this as free product testing. I mean won't you have a load of moments of comments to dump if it doesn't work for you? And far as sensitiveity they haven't installed that on my machine yet. This isn't even a challenge yet. This is collection of little bits of black on white. An idea. But here's where I got to laugh. Where do you think I learned to grow from but people like you. But in the very least we're talking simply food security. If a few dead pets didn't bring that home to you your standing in my way.

  • adayfromnow
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Justaguy, I don't know about any other folks with tendencies toward empathy, but my feelings weren't hurt by your post at all. In fact, your clear and concise arguments helped. I still don't understand why you're so angry about the whole idea, but now I understand better the things that might be wrong with it.

    Being a newbie, I didn't realize that the containers were too small for ideal growth of some plants, or that something in the process (root toxicity) could stunt them. I also agree with you that it's not really a self-watering contraption. I guess now I see it as more of a way to grow tall plants if your yard is concrete.

    As for the fruit, I can see why you wouldn't be happy with the production. I'm sure that you have had better experience with more conventional methods or containers. I have to say, though that at this point in my "gardening career", I would be absolutely tickled to death with ANY fruit, regardless of its form. I hope to some day be as cynical as you (wink wink), but for now, I'm just happy that everything I've planted so far is still alive. :D

    While there is apparently room for improvement on the whole concept, I guess the answer to the question of whether or not it is ultimately a good idea or a bad idea is totally dependent on one's expectations. Obviously this version of it wouldn't work for you, but it seems to work just fine for him. In that case, you're both right.

    I still think it's neat that he at least TRIED something innovative with what would otherwise be trash (or hopefully go to the recycling bin). It may not be perfect, but all ideas have to start somewhere.

    So now I have myself wondering if improvements could be made, using recycled items, that would satisfy the need for more room and would alleviate the issue of root toxicity. Hmmmm... Nothing coming to mind at the moment.

    Hopefully I haven't offended anyone. I apologize if I have.

  • rhizo_1 (North AL) zone 7
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You good folks just don't know the history of this guy. Trust me, it is far better to let his (rather frightening) posts drift away.

  • grvtykllr
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Justaguy, I think you need to reread geories posts.
    He admits he screwed up with the corn, He looked into how to fix what went wrong.
    He didnt say he was going to eat that and it was astounding corn that everyone should grow. He pointed out a mistake he made in one of his trials.
    Certainly you can agree that if we do some experimenting and find bad results we shuold post those here as well as the good to help someone come along behind and make our ideas better or tell us what went wrong and how to correct it?
    Gerogie screwed up, he got bad corn, He pointed out to us why he did so that we didnt have to follow along in bad corn.
    If you had read it all, youd understand that.
    Just yesterday I put together a few of his dark jugs or nanny pots, Iv got some seeds growing right now ( I hope) and even if we have crap to show for the first attempt my 3 year old had a great time helping me make a couple pots, and planting them and putting a sign in one with his name on it.
    Even if I get retarded flowers from it, I had a good time with my son, and im learning something as well.
    Your issues with georgies methods smell of personal issues instead of gardening issues.
    There is alot of people I dont like in my life, some I hate even, but that doesnt mean I cant learn something from them. I dont know that thats the case in your situation here, but its something to consider.
    Now, jump in and beat the hell out of me over my typos and grammar, Ill be over checking my pots so I wont have to sit at my screen and cry because your being mean to me.

  • everlasting
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    DANG! Some of you are mean.... Just let the posts drift away? And if you all think it's so darn dumb and frightening, why do you keep coming back for more?

    Well, I think it is because you are all bullies. Bullies pick on others to feel bigger, badder, and better about themselves. Why? Because bullies have a low self esteem and by trashing other people, they look better. But picking on others is like a drug, you have to keep doing it to feel better because you have not dealt with the underlying reasons to make it all go away--the self esteem issue.

    And for crying out loud! This is a FoRuM! It's not like this is your personal life. So you don't like his ideas, whoop-dee-doooo-daaa-day! Don't read them!

    And if you ask me, this person is only being creative and inventive in his own way. We are all creative and inventive in our own way. Yours apparently are different than his. Perhaps your ideas are dumb to him. Who cares? Gardening should not be about arguments. It's about gardening.

    I think it is awesome when a person looks at something and alters it in a way no one thought of before--even if the end result seems "weird" or "out there." Sometimes it's just plain fun!

    If you ask me, this person has a mind about him. He can look at something that other people care less for. He took those bottles that we send to land fills and did something with them. Even if you feel it is not functional, it still grew food even if the corn in question was shorter than normal.

    And you know what, I'd be willing to bet a starving person would eat it. If you were starving, you would eat it. Anyone would.

    So, sit in your maincured lawns.... Never think about how you would survive if the economy collapsed. Do you know how many rich people wouldnt make it because they have never struggled day in and day out like a poor person?

    But day in and day out we think that poor people are dumb. But they will find ways to get by if this country falls apart. Why? they have been doing it day in and day out, so it wouldnt come as a depressive shock to them.

    Driving down the road, I was behind an old beat up pick up truck. The liscence plate read "goat man". The muffler was held up with a bit of wire. The tail gate was missing, so the ingenoius owner created his own tail gate. He tied garden trellace onto the back of the truck to hold his belongings inside. OH! I wanted to meet this person! I thought to myself "now there is a man who has real brains in the real world and can come up with ideas. He doesnt have to 'live without things he needs.' He invents the things he needs."

    Now, most people would have laughed and viewed this man as being poor and uncapable. Most would have seen him as being uneducated and stupid. However, not all forms of intelligence are derived from book smarts and universities as this country and society leads us to believe. Just as psychologist have neglected to see people who are artistic as being intellectual, my psychology book pointed out that they now feel artistic people are some of the smartest alive. It takes brains to create.

    It is a form of intelligence that many big shots in this country over look because they arent earning MONEY off of it. why would this country credit someone like the goat man as being smart if they cant make money?

    Goat man has created, and so has georgeiii.

    Their form may be different from the main stream jumbo, but it is their form and they are true to their ownselves.

    Call georgeii crazy if you will. People thought einstein was crazy at first too.

    sammie

  • everlasting
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "I can only conclude you are suffering from a mental illness."

    HA! As a social worker, ahem, yes, there are people out there who do have varying forms of mental illness.

    But to use the term so lightly as you just did is the only thing wrong. Do you know how many intelligent people were living a great life and then--BAM! came down with something like shizophrenia? It happens more often than people know.

    I'm not saying georgeiii has a mental illness. But if he did, thats says alot about the angry person you are inside to go around and write like that soo loosely.

  • legacy
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Without sufficient elaboration from georgiii in design and in principle, I see this setup, the Dark Method, as a probable experimental adoptation of principles and features already in practice in hydroponics. There is a hydroponic hobbyist (or a commercial grower?) in Florida that has been documenting, sharing, and experimenting similar (and perhaps more efficient and proven) hydroponic systems in a larger scale with others. He shares his DIY designs and some technical knowledge with tons of pictures of his old and new experimental projects (and pictures from others) as well as selling his hydroponic systems.

    Here is a picture of one of his conceptual designs for example, http://www.hydroponicsonline.com/images/9unit.gif.

    Here is the index link to a database of success pictures (from him and others), http://hydroponicsonline.com/picindex.htm

    Growing hydroponically is an ancient technology and can be a simple and efficient growing method for mass production in small spaces, but I would read up the procedural and technical guidelines (hydroponic fertilizers, pH maintenance, cleanliness, air/light, limitations, and etc.) and learn from the successes and failures from various sources (technical or otherwise) to increase one's success rate in either growing hydroponics or building a working hydroponic system that makes sense for the plants you want to grow, raw materials available, investment, space, and unique circumstances.

  • legacy
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just to add that there are also hybrid growing techniques combining soiless, wicking/subirrigation, and hydroponics with or without the use of air and water bumps.

  • georgeiii
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well at least you went looking. The Dark Gardening method doesn't use pumps, air, water or othere wise. It uses the simple principle properties of food grade plastics, evaporation, heat and cooking a cake that never gets done. And simple observation. The Garden Pods work on just an ounce or two of water a day. The Nanny Pods goes for the whole growing season on just 1 gallon of water. But let's get back to Ed. During the 60's when waste was the in thing Ed's hydroponics were alright. We weren't worried about run off and waste water. Ed's methods use 55 gallon drums of nutrients that was simply turned into waste water twice a month. Waste water you really couldn't do anything with but pour down the toilet and forget. Now you look at his set up and how many drums (drums ladies and gentlemen)is he using? How many times does he have to refill? Twice maybe three times a month? How many times a season? Hell I had this discussion last year with sqwakbox. Showed him a method using hydroponics that used 1/8 the nutrients and water. Look it up there are pictures there too. As for the others you mention please post what you have...I'd like too see them. There's no waste water, nutrient run off, no harzard to the enviroment and as I said it can be done anywhere there's sunlight. There's no wires, tubes,pumps or hidden chambers inside. The media is made from materials you can commonly buy at any garden shop and is reuseable next year. And yes I did mention using a hydroponic nutrient mix to fertilize with but it's just easier for others to understand but you only need an ounce or two every two weeks. In fact if you use Ed's nutrient formula mix you'd have to have 32 plants just to use one batch of his mix with The Dark Gardening method or it would go bad waiting to be used. So please post what ever finding you have I'll check back later.

  • hopflower
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It is not very attractive though; is it?

  • justaguy2
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Georgie, you might just be on to something.

    Problem is your method is not attractive as others have pointed out and many (most?) container gardeners want something that is pleasing to look at rather than just utilitarian.

    You have also posted pictures of your plants and, well... they really don't look all that healthy. Most of your pics show veggies that aren't producing any harvest and those that show harvestable produce (like the corn photos) show deformed produce. (The corn cobs were, at best, half pollinated which is odd considering the close spacing and the fact that corn is primarily wind pollinated).

    So, given what I have seen thus far your method is aesthetically lacking and based upon the pics you posted don't yield very well. If it is neither aesthetically pleasing nor particularly valuable in terms of yield...

    Kind of a hard sell.

  • lilion
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think Georgie's ideas are interesting. I still may try something, but it's getting a bit late in the year to plant here. All in all, an intriging idea that may have merit. The main problem I've had is the posts are a bit, odd? Sometimes I get a mental image as I read them of a man wringing his hands and cackling manically. Not trying to be mean, but clear writing indicates clear thinking and makes the whole thing come across as a much more valid idea.

    Your last post Georgie, was pretty lucid and understandable, and leaving out all the hyperbole makes you sound way less like a nutball. I think if you stick to clear, coherent writing you will get a better response.

  • legacy
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    There are many variations of self-contained greenhouse methods already in practice I have seen.

    In addition to the expensive Earthbox and self-watering planters and the adjustable gills (soil grid) from GS and various homemade models from fellow gardeners on Garden Web, the Futuregarden/Smartgardens (and hydroponic retailers) have the Autopot and the Smart Garden Planter that don't require the use of electricity. There is one outdoors guy on the Internet that sells a battery run dripline/water barrel/planter kit for apartment dwellers (no time to search for his link). The rooftopgardens project in Canada has the balcony grower, the bucket grower, the pipe garden, the barrel grower, the wick grower, and etc. Here is a link to rooftopgarden's different growers, http://english.rooftopgardens.ca/?q=image/tid/66. Search for self-watering planter on video.yahoo.com or video.google.com, there will be many more clear and concise DIY demos. Maybe others as well as you have more references?

  • georgeiii
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Again the question is....what's your point? You aren't making any. Remember the apple and oranges question? There's no comparision with The Dark Gardening Method. So what are you using to compare the two? Costs? It's free. We use and throw away the materials everyday. In fact today was our recycling day. So for a four block walk and an hour of my time I got all the 2 & 3 liter, 1 gallon juice bottles I need. Close to 400 of them. All free. Now yes there's some cost in this for the towels and glue. The towels are 27" by 57" long. I cut them into 20 strips lenght wise then cut those strips into 3 section. Each towel cost 50 cents at the mission. Glue costs about $9 and will make about 120 pods. So that's about what 1/2 cent a pod? Add the cost of new media and it raises to about 20 cents per pod. Search for anything priced like that.

  • legacy
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, perhaps you can think of other costs. My labor and time are investments and costs to me, too. The quality and yield of my final product matter to me; earning or pay $1/hr vs. $50/hr. These are also costs even if the priorities may differ by individual.

    Perhaps you didn't look at the thousands of pictures from hydroponicsonline.com or any of the sites I referenced above; it's a lot to go through. These are also low cost DIY designs or combination designs ranging from small and large planters to commercial growers; thus, the wastes (of fertilizer and water) created alluded by you do not apply in all situations and the minor differences are relative secondary to availability of raw materials and individual needs and goals. Both self-watering and hydroponic crops grow faster requiring smaller areas than conventional growing method, principles which The Dark Method adopts, because there is less waste. There isn't anything unique or new about The Dark Method that hasn't been practiced that I can see unless you can delineate them for me.

    And if small size is the measure of success or achievement by your standard, Hydroponicsonline uses 16 oz plastic drinking cups as growers and uses recycled soda bottles (and bleach bottles) as well. His sequential pictures are marked by dates (or he showed plant progress and notated the dates - that is art and science and business). The site shows real size tomatoes and strawberries. He shows growers from club members and his associations with local universities. He shares both his successes and failures. The multiple models from Rooftop Gardens with results that have been duplicated and documented by others are flexible enough would appeal to a large diverse groups of people. I'm not saying these two sources are the definitive sources for alternate container growers or that their growers are perfect without problems. I offered them because I happened to have looked at them and because I don't see what is unique about The Dark Method than the principles that have been used by others.

    Moreover, if I were an artist and a visionary, I would be open to give credit to those who influenced my art, compare and contrast (without being defensive) the pros and cons of different models and techniques when people ask questions to show the depth my knowledge and expertise, and adopt and learn from the successes and failures of others to improve my art form.

    I'm all for recycling, and I share and appreciate hearing your inventions and your desire to get diverse people inspired to grow things on a budget and more easily. I am sure The Dark Gardening Method works, but I personally would (as I get older and time is running out :) - spend the time and money building a more permanent low cost growing system by learning from those who have succeeded with documented appreciable results. Similar to you, the fruits of my labor or vision may not be the predominant consideration as costs and functional aesthetics, but yield and quality do count in relation to my investment in time and labor when I do a project in the final analysis.

    Being an artist and a computer person you are, it should be very simple for you. Instead of hitting people with incoherent introduction of your system haphazardly (and you answering the same questions) while turning others off, if you build an organized website with logical explanations of your system and progress pictures of your crops this year, you just have to offer a link to your website. I think even more people would be interest and there will be less skeptics to work with. When your site can explain your grower and progress clearly and simply, you and others wouldn't have to be asked to repeat the basics of your system.

    Lastly, I would like to ask five questions about your system (started with one but they kept growing):

    1) How can one repot in midseason or reuse the grower for the next season without causing damage to the upper and lower plastic bottles if the bottles are glue shut.

    2) What growing medium (or % mix) did you find work best with The Dark Method?

    3) What have you grown successfully with the method?

    4) Why 7 stalks of corn per bottle and not 1,3, or 12?

    5) Why is it important to stress low water use? Exceptional low water use would indicate slow growth to me. Do the harvests fall w/in the expected schedule?

    Maybe these can be on your future FAQ page.

  • legacy
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Which brings me to Q#6-7.

    6) How do you sterilize the water reservoir thoroughly and easily (the bottom bottle I assume) and the planter (the top bottle) for repotting or storage?

    7) How did you manage transplanting 7 corn seedlings or young plants into an one-inch opening? Did I have that right, 1" opening for the planter? I double-checked my ruler. One inch is not very wide, and I don't have big hands. I also have good eye and hand coordination because I'm a classically trained pianist and an athlete.

  • georgeiii
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    How can one repot in midseason or reuse the grower for the next season without causing damage to the upper and lower plastic bottles if the bottles are glue shut.

    I just take the upper bottle in one hand and the lower bottle in the other and twist. They pop right apart. I assume your talking about the Nanny Pods. When your ready to glue the containers use only one drop the twist the bottles to spread the glue around between the necks. This stops the bottles from being pulled apart but not twisted apart. As for removing the material just use a tomato cane to push the media out.

    2) What growing medium (or % mix) did you find work best with The Dark Method?

    What do you normally use? I have my own mix it's true but the mix is just there to allow structure. As long as there no pieces bigger than a dried pea you should be alright. Larger pieces produce heat spots that will kill the roots.

    3) What have you grown successfully with the method?

    Haahhhaaaa what you aren't happy with the mutant corn? Haahhahaa sorry it's just a tickle. This method allows for very high plant density and since corn is wind pollenated I didn't get great results. I think it was 35 good ears and 75 of the mutant types but for the corn it was a sucess because it got to make seed for this year. 100 stalks of sweet corn all grown in a 3'x6' space. But the question should be what gave me problems growing? And that would be broccolli, brussell sprouts and carrots. That's about it. For this year I think I have those figured out....I think but time will tell. I'll show pictures.

    ) Why 7 stalks of corn per bottle and not 1,3, or 12?

    Now where did I ever say there where 7 stalks per container? There's only 1 stalk per pod. Must have been some one else you got that from.

    5) Why is it important to stress low water use? Exceptional low water use would indicate slow growth to me. Do the harvests fall w/in the expected schedule?

    That's 3 questions. First of all your still stuck on the hydroponic thing. Think more of aeroponics inground. The Dark Gardening Method works on evaporation not on douseing the plants with water. That's the property of plastic. You can see it happening. There's pictures of that here on The GardenWeb too. Nor does the plants life schedule change because of what you've potted it in. As for low water useage you live in TX where water is becoming a problem due to global warming and your water supply is going to become more and more polluted. Just plain drinking water going to be a problem yet alone what you can put on your plants to feed yourself. As for the other 2 questions I think I answered them in the above.

    ]

  • legacy
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I beg the difference. If I'm thinking about your Dark Garden, how can I be still stuck on "the hydroponic thing"? Are you more stuck than I am stuck? :)

    Since you mentioned hydroponics and the evaporation method, I believe anyone who has searched for various of self-watering designs, including hydroponic, to meet their gardening and lifestyle needs would see that your Dark Garden method or the evaporation/wick method, including any ordinary houseplant growing in soiless medium, are the simpliest forms of hydroponics. In fact, most hydroponic instructional sites have these basic evaporation and wick models for school and home projects. A popular version with soda bottles that has been shown is not to glue the bottles together as in The Dark Method but to simply invert and rest the top bottle on the bottom one (the water reservoir).

    With respect to my question about plant water uptake or a low watering frequency you are advocating using The Dark Method (Q5), I wasn't looking for the environmental and self-sustaining advatages that are also afforded by other comparable existing self-contained methods such as the Smart Planter and other evaporation/wicking self-watering units growing multiple plants in one planter or storage plastic bin for gardening and for space flights in addition to The Dark Garden. I was asking for a possible scientific explanation about the advantages of watering CROPS, for example, less than once a month or more from a design, plant biology, or nutritional perspective.

    Again, I have no doubt your grower works because many have adopted the evaporation/wick systems to grow plants/flowers more easily and successfully and meet their lifestyle and social and creative needs. Moreover, I don't wish to reduce or overlook any unique alternate advantages offered by The Dark Method (or Garden) that could be of value for some or your ingenuity and accomplishments, but hopefully, you could see more clearly in context of your approach, presentation, and responses to questions thus far, my objections about your implied and often overreaching statements both about your growing method and hydroponics here and in another thread.

  • legacy
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What is being demonstrated (or you wish to show) by the first picture with several black planters (Nanny Pods?) surrounding one red bucket of plant?

  • mkirkwag
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The post with the pictures made perfect sense, and also cleared up the use of "carburetor." I had thought that the problem was that English was your second language, but maybe, like a lot of us, you're thinking faster than you can type and don't notice that you haven't made all the connections. Happens to me, too. There's still a post that I don't get...you're making a cradle of a towel and a wick at the same time? How? I can't picture what holds it in place or how you make a wick of the same piece. Maybe I misunderstood. Do you have another picture-post of that part? Don't the roots get soggy sitting on the towel? Obviously it works - that's a lot of corn! - but I don't quite get it.