I would also like to know ? I do know that PEAT does break down, and compact, but it is known all over the webb that COCO coir does the opposite. It doesn't break down like peat, retains air in the root zone, does not stay soaking wet, has a perfect PH. But are there advantages to using this over peat for those of us who like to make a soiless mix that does not break down?
I also have bricks of coir, bags of coco chunks, and bags of coco fiber I have had sitting in my cellar for over 2 years.
In fact, for the mix that Al says you can use peat in, I wonder if it can be replaced by coco coir?
Sorry, to lazy to search all the post for this one. It has probably already been answered..LOL
One more thing...Does it have to be pretreated with fertilizers to be rendered useful?

Thanks

Oh ......Something else I was told.....COCO anything used in pots causes no fungas in soil, nor fungas knats and other stupid pests that eat organic material that decays and breakdown.....Chances of root rot are greatly deminished also. This is what I have been reading...Could be wrong though? Maybe that is what they say to push this product and sell it.:-)

Hi, MB. Sphagnum peat and coir have nearly identical water retention curves. They both retain about 90-95% of their volume in water at saturation and release it over approximately the same curve until they both lock water up so tightly it's unavailable for plant uptake at about 30-33% saturation. Coir actually has less loft than sphagnum peat, and therefore, less aeration. Because of this propensity, coir should be used in mixes at lower %s than peat. Because of the tendency to compact, in the greenhouse industry, coir is primarily used in containers in sub-irrigation (bottom-watering) situations. Many sources produce coir that is high in soluble salts, so this can also be an issue.

Using coir as the primary component of soils virtually eliminates lime or dolomitic lime as a Ca source because of coir's high pH (6+). Gypsum should be used as a Ca source, which eliminates coir's low S content. All coir products are very high in K, very low in Ca, and have a potentially high Mn content, which can interfere with the uptake of Fe.

I haven't tested coir, but I have done some testing of CHCs (coconut husk chips) with some loose controls in place. After very thoroughly leaching and rinsing the chips, I made a 5:1:1 soil of pine bark:peat:perlite (which I know to be very productive) and a 5:1:1 mix of CHCs:peat:perlite. I planted 6 cuttings of snapdragon and 6 cuttings of Coleus (each from the same plant to help reduce genetic influences) in containers (same size/shape) of the different soils. I added dolomitic lime to the bark soil and gypsum to the CHC soil. After the cuttings struck, I eliminated all but the three strongest in each of the 4 containers. I watered each container with a weak solution of MG 12-4-8 with STEM added at each watering, and watered on an 'as needed basis', not on a schedule. The only difference in the fertilizer regimen was the fact that I included a small amount of MgSO4 (Epsom salts) to provide MG (the dolomitic lime in the bark soil contained the MG, while the gypsum (CaSO4) in the CHC soil did not. This difference was necessary because or the high pH of CHCs and coir.) for the CHC soil.

The results were startling. In both cases, the cuttings grown in the CHC's exhibited only about 1/2 the biomass at summers end as the plants in the bark mix.

I just find it very difficult for a solid case to be made (besides "It works for me") for the use of coir or CHC's. They're more expensive and more difficult to use effectively. The fact that some believe peat is in short supply (no where near true, btw) is easily offset by the effect of the carbon footprint of coir in its trek to the US from Sri Lanka or other exotic locales.

That's the view from here.

Al

Well put Al...
Thanks for the explanation on the CoCo nut products. I never knew of the purpose for Coir and why some swear by this stuff. That is why I never used mine. What's funny is that everyone I bought this product from, really never had a good explantion on how to use it, or the problems and work it takes if one wants to substitute it for peat. That is why it is still in my cellar!
Thanks as always Al..:-)

Yes thank you very much for the detailed analysis - I am a complete newbie at this and had no idea there was so much science to it! I appreciate that you are so thorough with your testing and have so much experience as it keeps newbies like me from making big mistakes. I wasn't convinced about coir, and its not that easy to find around here for some reason, so I inquired to find out if there was some "magical" properties to it that would make it worth sending away for some...

I think I'll stick with what's tried and true and found locally. Thanks!

To be fair, there are many people who are very happy with coir and CHC's performance, and my trials had only loose controls in place. I'm not trying to leave you with the impression that you shouldn't use it, but I think it's fair to say that it should never realistically be elevated to the status level of something akin to a green thumb in a bale, and that like peat or pine bark, it has its own set of peculiarities that need to be considered and overcome if you want to realize the best results. ;o)

Al

i have been attempting coir this year. in all of the container mixes that i put it in, i have found that it holds water for a very long time.
i also tried coir for germinating some seeds. i have mixed feelings about using it. the seeds seem to germinate well, because it doesn't dry out as fast. on the other hand i have to watch that i don't water the seedling too much once they have sprouted.
i won't use coir in any of the container mixes again.
i will use it for starting some seeds, but it will be mixed with other items.

Substrates suitable for seed starting are more about sterility and aeration than moisture. It's better to have a well-aerated substrate that needs water frequently than a marginally or poorly aerated substrate that can go forever between irrigations.

Al

I have heard from several people pro's and hobbyists that are going to coco coir for cutting propagation and having great success with some very slow to root plants. This leads me believe that the aeration quality is there but will need to be understood. These are people I know and respect for their propagative skills. I personally started using cocochoice.com coco coir (fines) to replace the peat in many a mix last year that is mostly Al's mix and have had great results. I changed no other part of the mix otherwise than replacing the peat moss. I did have to watch my watering a little more early on in over potting which I do regularly but as it go hotter here in Texas and the plants filled out I could make the whole day without water stress and the peat ones couldn't had to water that night when I got home from work to prevent water induced stress. I can't explain the physics as to why the one worked better in this way but did observe the difference none the less. I will say that I would want to do some larger block studies to be statisically accurate in my observations tho! I am able to price compare the two and not be too far off on each but in retail the coco is still to expensive than it should be (probably the green thing being used wrongly IMHO). Shipping it is an issue and the quality seems to be all over the board so I would not suggest it be done unless you are a tinkerer and have the I gotta know for myself attitude going on first.

I got some coco chips being sold as "mulch block" and I can't say that I thought much of it but in certain situations may be workable but a very small plant world would benefit from it IMHO.
That all I can share for now, gotta get ready to work!
Happy Planting David

Dave....

Did you have to treat the coco coir with any fertilizers before you used it, or did you just mix it right in as if it was peatmoss....? Please let me know ASAP. Because if your plants are doing ok, you must of done something right!
Thanks alot
Mike...:-)

In reply to David's response:

"I am able to price compare the two and not be too far off on each but in retail the coco is still to expensive than it should be (probably the green thing being used wrongly IMHO). Shipping it is an issue and the quality seems to be all over the board so I would not suggest it be done unless you are a tinkerer and have the I gotta know for myself attitude going on first."

I agree completely!

The reason I posted my question here is exactly for the answers I received. I wanted scientific/growing feedback in comparison to the economic and convenience factors involved with building soils. In learning a new science or art, it is always best to consult with those who have much experience, and then add a bit of your own learning and experimenting into the process.

In the case of my cocopeat inquiry, I've decided the main reason I will not try it out (in large quantities anyways) is the cost and availability issue - but also, very importantly, is that it doesn't seem to be producing a huge or beneficial difference over other materials most are already incorporating into their mixes. If there was a noticeable or huge difference that benefits my plan (water retention is definitely a factor, but I'm home all day so I have time to water regardless!) - then I would have gone out of my way to order some or call around and find it locally.

So far only one place I've inquired in Memphis carrying it in any quantity and it's further away than I'd like to drive to pick it up. I tend to work with garden centers right around my neighborhood, I like supporting the local business, not the large franchises/retail. The shipping costs for anything over 5-10 of the smaller 1.5 size bricks is really not worth it in my opinion.

Short story way too long - I'm going to go with the original plan / recipe I'm creating which with the help of great advice from here (Al, Mike, etc) I think I will have a good mix!

Maybe in the future when I'm more accomplished at container gardening I will start playing around with adding different materials such as cocopeat for testing. Right now I need to use the 'KISS' method to success! ;)

Thanks again all of you, I really appreciate the encouragement and feedback! I'm very excited to get my container veggies started ... all the components will be ready this weekend - Now I just have to wait out the last bit to ensure no last-minute freeze here in Memphis!

(Should I wait til April 15th tax day like many here suggest or chance it earlier? My seedlings are almost ready...)

MB / Jules
Memphis

I did not treat the coco-peat any different than I did the sphagnum peat moss I use. I have not been seeing any of the problems that have cropped up on several forum discussions. I think I have a good quality source and a reasonable price. I don't see cocopeat as a silver bullet for any given situation but may be useful is certain situations and still has a ways to go overall to be comparable to the know factors of peatmoss. Just an added tool but like anything new to a grower should be slowly tested and over the long haul decide whether it should be used to a larger degree only if the economics of and or other useful factors to the situations warrants it. I do use the 12 LB blocks as the brick are too expensive unless you are doing very small planting projects.
Happy Planting David

mercurybutterfly, my knowledge and experience with the coconut palm and its by-products is probably out of date so I was motivated here to 'look up' cocopeat.
I found a very readable article on cocopeat analysis on the site "Galuku CoCoPeat". It was authored by Geoff Cresswell and, as a bonus, clarifies some of the concepts which are applied in the formulation of soil mixes.
Many thanks for a stimulating Saturday start!

Well,

I have grown a few plants in just about a year with cocopeat, and in Al's suggested mixes. One plant I have had in cocopeat for over 2 years.

I have clivias, in all three. I also have a few houseplants in all 3. I wantd to tell no one till this spring, to see for myself how good they all work.
Especially in the cocpeat or fibers. I have not used the coco husks yet though.
This cocopeat is of good quality.. No salt content,soaked twice, made from Shri Lanka, with a ph of 5.0-6
I wanted to share my experience.

With regards to roots,

Coco peat:
5.1.1 mix no peat. Coco fibers,perlite,bark

The root masses look GREAT! Nice and white,and fast growing root systems... I especially like the way the clivia roots look..WOW
I have not lost one plant in coco to root rot yet.

Al's soilless mixes...
1.1.1
Bark,perlite and crushed granite combined, and turface. Tiny particles sifted out. Bigger pieces used.

Some look great, some not so good. The roots to all of my succulants, and some of my trees look pretty good. But the few that "trees" that did die in this mix upon examination, I found the roots never grew a bit. In fact they rotted out.
The top 2 inches of the roots died. While the rest survived on some.
Then on a couple of my trees, the main roots died.
Not sure if it was due to overwatering or too many dry spots in the root zone.But my heart tells me I may have had too much air pockets in the soilless mix. Too oxygen to the roots.
I saw that one of the trees that had died had no, I mean, no soilless mixture touching the center roots. My bad! One I will watch on my next transplantings, and I will have to fix some of my plants come spring since they too are sruggling.

The 5.1.1 mix.
Peat, perlite, bark

The roots look ok. But not as nice as the 5.1.1. mix made with cocopeat..I am having a problem with compaction, and knats! It takes longer for the peat to dry evenly, where as the cocopeat stays slighly moist longer, and dries out evenly. No knats in my plants with cocopeat, nor the gritty one..
I am finding out that the peatmoss is compacting and breaking down quite rapidly. The cocopeat not at all..
No break down in the gritty mix.
I can also rewet the cocopeat easier...It is fast draining.

I have had no bad experience with cocopeat yet. The only thing that I have to say is that, unless I fertilze on a regular basis, I will notice deffinciency in the leaves.

I would say, learning to use cocopeat, the gritty mix, and the peatmoss have been quite a challange, but a rewarding one for me. I have lost a few plants, but the funny thing is, never to cocopeat?

Use what works for you and your plants..:-)

In Als' griity mix, I have lost a few plants.Probably from not transplanting correctly, from overwatering, or underwatering...maybe from not filling in the space bewteen the roots, maybe from lettin

I really don't know what to tell you, Mike. So far, you are the only person who has had any trouble at all, growing in the gritty mix. Everyone else has been extremely happy with how it performs.

There really is no trick to growing in a properly made, well aerated soil - especially one like the gritty mix - it's extremely easy to grow in. As long as a soil is able to hold ample amounts of air, water, and nutrients, and is not phytotoxic (poison to plants) problems should be considered operator error and not the fault of the soil.

Al

Did you "really" get what I said?

Is anyone suppose to be afraid to share their mistakes in using the gritty mix incorrectly? And then admit it?

Sorry

I have yet to say anything bad of you or your mix Al. You of all people should not misinterpet me...

Are you looking for something not there?

Take care

Mike...:-)

Nope - I'm not looking for anything - especially not a spat. I just wanted it to be perfectly clear that it's not the soil - nothing more.

Al

Then we are on the same page...

I will always appreciate what you have shown me...

Take care Al,
Hope your're well,

Mike:-)

I have used cocopeat, and I've learned a couple of things about it...

One, be aware that not all coco coir or peat is prewashed... it may contain a heavy amount of salts, and should be thoroughly rinsed before using.

Two, even though it did not grow the fungi or molds I'm used to seeing on bagged potting soils, I did have some rather funky looking yellow fungus grow in quite a few of my pots. (This is before I discovered Al's gritty medium and began using it exclusively.)

Some people swear by coco peat and other coco products... I'm not sold on it. I admit that some sizes of coco chips might be good for some uses, but I'm getting rid of the bagged cocopeat I have.