It must a hit-or-miss thing by region. I wanted fines for mulching a certain bed last year and I looked at every single nursery and home store in the area. Finally found them at Meadows Farms, a Va.Md.-based chain, in bags from a source in Va. whose name I can't recall, but if anyones really wants it, I'll go out after it stops raining and find out for you! Let me know.

Jolly gardener here in maine sells pine bark fines buy the bag. They call it perennial bed enriching mulch. I called them and they said it was pine bark fines composted. They sell it all over the place. I bought a couple of bags. But I bought uncomposted pine bark mulch from a local nursery 15 bucks a yard. I screened it myself to make fines with a 1/2 in mesh screen. Way cheaper than by the bag. Al was a huge help through the process. Filix

I'm thinking about using pine fines to mulch a planting of fruit trees-I'm going to dig holes, cover w/ brown packaging paper, cuto out the holes & plant trees, & then mulch-which would work better, pine fines or shredded hardwood mulch?

As a mulch, either will work equally well. The hardwood mulch may have more of a tendency to become hydrophobic and repel water, but it will be broken down more quickly by micro-organisms, enriching the soil. It will also need to be replenished more frequently than the pine bark.

Al

Thanks- last year I mulched a bed that I planted w/ figs & bananas w/ cypress mulch, it doesn't seem to have decomposed as much as the regular hardwood mulch, but I read somewhere that cypress mulch suppresses plant growth, do you think this may be true?

Yes. I was on a panel recently and one of the other members cited a recent study that compared a number of mulch types. Cypress mulch showed allelopathic properties that suppressed plant growth more than any other of those tested. Even plants grown under ground up tires fared better than those grown under cypress mulch.

Al

Al thanks so much that does help, I have seen the photo but the explanation makes it clearer. Making the pbf over winter could be a next year adventure if necessary but IÂm really hoping to score some or something similar as I plan to enhance my container gardening significantly this summer. IÂll see if I canÂt find what Filix suggested. ThanksÂ.

IÂm not done with questions so please bear with me and thanks for the assistance

I bought fine pine bark mulch at Home Depot 2 years ago. It was pretty darn fine, I didn't care for it for mulching.
So I used it in my container potting soil batch.
I was wondering if anyone ever substituted or added cocoa beans shells for the pine bark fine.
I love cocoa beans shells for a soil conditioner.In fact I swear it is the best soil conditioner. Unfortunetly, even in PA, home of the Hershey Kiss, it is pricy.

As I have at least 300 mature Douglas fir trees on my property,there is always a few on the ground. I can run pieces of bark pulled from the downed trees through my chipper very easily. Now I can screen to the size I want as all sizes are in the mix. I have used this for orchid mix in the past, but never thought of using it in a general container mix. I will report on my success or lack of. Al

Al, somehow I can't imagine that any plant you grow will do anything but flourish! But you'll find that all of your plants will appreciate the addition of this amendment.

rich, I see you're in MA, too. I've had much better luck in this area finding Turface and pine bark mulch at Agway than at HD, garden stores, even landscaping companies. I go to an Agway in Waltham with carries both the Turface and the PBF; you can probably google to find a closer one.

The stuff I have available locally is Mountaintop Fine Pine from Loudon Heights Fuel Co. (?), WV, it's 3.99 for a 2 cu. ft. bag.

Since the cypress seems to be out, as a all-around mulch, which would be preferable, fine pine, shredded hardwood, or cedar? I don't have alot to mulch & I have been using my compost (yay!) to top dress the beds...

Not related to pine fines (although I include them in my potting mix), but definitely to container gardening, I got a lovely container today, it's a hose container, 12.5" high, 12' opening, shaped like a pumpkin, sort of bluish, w/ a purple underglaze-I can't wait to plant it!

Of course, I meant, 12" opening...

Today I bought one yard of partialy composted pine bark fines for 35 bucks.It does not need to be screened. They bought it from jolly gardener. Its great stuff and a bargain. When you pay three dollars for one cubic ft bag. If anybody in mass or new hamshire is close, its worth the trip.Filix

Filix, where in Mass can this be purchased from.

Sorry Rich. I forgot to say coatal landscape is in york maine. Right at the bottom of the state. I drove about 30 miles. Filix

Here is Denton, Lowes sells it (and so does Wal-Mart) as Landscaper's Mix. I have used it for two years now, and when I repot a rose or other perennial after a year or two the potting soil crumbles nicely in my hand and is not packed at all, and it seems to hold water as needed and drain well. I often mix it with Wal-Mart Perfect Mix potting soil 1/2 and 1/2 as a short cut and this seems to work fine for me. Not as perfect as doing it Al's way but I have to do small batches and this is the best I could work out.
Betsy

Tee, I found an Agway in Hanson but they didn't carry any PBF, but on the bright side they had onion sets at $1.50/lb so it wasn't a wasted trip. I'll try Lowes and Walmart next.

Still have not found any PBF, but I did find a pine and cedar MEDIUM texture mix. It was fairly fine but also contained some larger pieces. Would this work?

Ahhh, found Earthgro decorative cedar fine texture today which says the contents are minimal wood and lots of bark....so all is well. This is good right????

Rich, your quest is reaching Arthurian proportions...

I checked the bag I bought at the Agway in Waltham: it's "Forest Pine" brand, and is called "100% pine bark mulch". It looks like the stuff in Al's photo: small chipped pieces, lightly composted.

If you're still looking, might be worth calling around to the Agways in driving distance and asking for it. I think the one in Danvers had it too.

good luck!

Al, have you used cocoa shell mulch or have any thoughts on it to replace bark fines? It appears to have an NPK ratio of 2.5-1-3, a pH of 5.8 and it requires no N supplementation due to it's slow break down.

Other than being toxic to dogs I am wondering if there is any downside to using it.

Never mind, apparently cocoa bean mulch isn't very good

Danvers? My home town! Or you could go to where I did, or a some place like it. And get it over with. Buy a yard or two of the stuff and you will have enough for years at a fraction of the cost. You need a pickup truck or van. Check the yellow pages for landscaping companys. They, like coastal landscaping in york maine buy a tractor trailer full at a time. Then sell it to smaller companys. Filix

Here in the Dallas area, the composted pine bark fines can be purchased at Calloways Garden Centers under their private label as "Compost - Soil Conditioner". Great stuff.

Randy

Justaguy
That link to different studies of container, media and ferts studies was very interesting!
Thanks and Happy Growing David

Randy, thanks for the Calloway source.

Dear Al,

Since reading your posts about water table level and container growing medium, I mixed in large amount of perlite in my potting mix (1:3-1:2)for some of the last year's failed crops that were grown under cover that may not have gotten sufficient direct sun for photosynthesis on a NE facing balcony. I didn't lighten the potting soil for my container roses, strawberries, and gardenia too much but only slightly, since they got direct sun for direct 6 hrs last year and have been prolific, disease-free, and healthy.

I do my best to recycle (I compost plant-based kitchen waste on my balcony in sm. volume fairly successfully in my zone). Do you think washed and dried pistachio shells would be sensible and functional substitutions for pine bark fines to increase soil aeration for growing under cover?

First time I've ever been asked that question. ;o)

I suppose they would work ok in certain situations. I don't believe their water retention would be as good as conifer bark - and I suspect the water release curve would be very steep. Ground peanut hulls are regularly included in container media and mulches, and they're a higher % of cellulose than pistachio hulls.

It is the suberin in conifer bark that makes it so slow to be broken down by micro-organisms. After that, the woody part, lignin, is what helps keeps conifer bark structurally sound, and pistachio hulls are fairly rich in lignin. Cellulose is the easiest of the hydrocarbon molecules for micro-organisms to cleave, and pistachio hulls also have plenty of that.

I wouldn't be bashful about incorporating a small % of the pistachio hulls in the mix, but I wouldn't substitute them for conifer bark or peat. I'd also be wary of using any hulls that had been salted - even after rinsing/leaching.

I wouldn't hesitate at all to spread them in the garden or add them to compost for the garden after a thorough rinse (if salted).

Al

Glad to be the first to ask. :)

In that case, I will boil the pistachio hulls a few times to remove the salt and speed the decomposition process before I incorporate them into my potting soil and compost.

Based on last year's results, I do need to improve the aeration of my potting soil condition since I can't alter the environment of growing under shelter, at least not without major monetary and fuel energy output. If insufficient light, slow growth, failure to thrive, and rot seemed to be the problems even when I wasn't heavy-handed with watering, would you agree that maximum potting mix aeration would be the resolution for improved photosynthesis?

What advantage would the pine bark fines offer that I may miss if I don't use them in my potting mix of perlite and peat-based potting mix(40:50), pistachio hulls(5%), Schultz slow release fertilizer (Multi Cote), and compost(5%)? Thanks for any suggestions.

The key to maximum production of photosynthate lies in maintaining luxury levels (actual hort term) of air, water, nutrients, and light. All are essential and equally important, though we usually consider photo-exposure to be the most important. I suppose we may as well throw in an optimal temperature range as well.

As far as resolving the issue: You'll never achieve optimal growth w/o optimal light levels, but maintaining optimum levels of the other cultural requirements does become more important when one or more of the others is lacking.

It seems like a lot of effort and expense to boil the shells, and you really don't want them to break down quickly. If they do, they will cause N immobilization and reduce aeration as they break into smaller particles.

Your mix may very well suit you growing style - I couldn't say for sure. Watering habits are extremely important in container culture. The soils I suggest are usually offered primarily because they take so much of the guesswork out of watering for inexperienced gardeners. They also guarantee good aeration and drainage at the same time as holding good amounts of water.

What benefit would the bark add to your soil? If you add water to a mix of peat and compost until it's saturated, you get a soupy or pudding-like mix. Even when allowed to drain it will hold plenty of water at the outset & more as it breaks down. Amending it with perlite is like adding perlite to pudding, until you get to the point where a substantial part of the soil is perlite. There's probably nothing wrong with that, but I've found that replacing a good portion of the peat with conifer bark and eliminating the compost will leave you with a soil that provides and retains the physical properties needed to insure good growth. It's up to you to provide the water, light, nutrients, and favorable temperatures.

As noted, there's more than one way to get there, but for my money, I'll take a bark-based soil over a peaty soil soil anytime. Just as a note of interest - none of the soils I use to grow on woody plants contains any peat at all, and I try to limit peat in herbaceous plantings to around 10%.

I'm not suggesting you should emulate me at all; just letting you know what works for me and others I've helped, and more importantly, why. ;o)

Good growing.

Al

Justaguy, if I read the article in that link correctly, cocoa bean shell is not a good substitute for spaghnum peat moss. I need it for a substitute for pine bark because my pine bark supplier didn't have any and Menards has the 2 cu. ft. bags for the same price. I already did two big containers with cocoa bean shells as a replacement and to the touch, the soil seems fine and aerated. I won't know how it performs until the end of summer. Hopefully my supplier will get the pine bark on Wednesday and I won't have to go totally cocoa bean this year. I do have to prepare containers between now and Wednesday to get everything done by the end of the month.

BTW: The pine bark mixture from last year has totally decomposed. There is no pine bark in any of those containers after one year and I have to replace the soil in all of them. Kind of interesting. Last year was the first time I used pine bark.

Ohhhh - this is where I saw your post, Mea. ;o)

I was shopping today @ Home Depot for a 24" square paver to use in the garden as a table top to set containers on. I walked bast the bark & mulch & spied something interesting. There was a ripped bag of mulch that looks perfect for container soils. The bag says: "Golden Trophy Pine Bark Mulch". It's bagged by "US Mulch LTD.", in Columbus Ohio. It really was perfect stuff - nicely composted & just a hint of piney smell. I didn't need any more, but I bought a bag anyway - just to be sure it was suitable. When I got it home & inspected closer, it appeared that there was very little sapwood in it. If any want to look for it - it's a good choice. It was $3.49 for a 2 cu ft bag.

Al

I know this is an old thread but I had a question about a soil conditioner I have seen at Home Depot...It was listed as 50% pine bark and 50% compost.
Will this work well or does it need to be more than 50% pine bark?

Al I also have another question...
You say that you like to use what you have at 9 o'clock for mixes that will go 2 years befor repoting.
Im guessing this is what I need for my plants(Meyer Lemon,Blueberries)
This to me looks more like pine bark mulch and not the finer soil conditioner,is this correct?
And Im still a bit confused...
You say (if I read it right) that uncomposted bark will rob N when it breaks down,but also say that eleminating the compost will ensure the physical structure that I would want for my soil to breath and drain right.
So do I want to use composted or uncomposted products?
Sorry to go on and on with the question but I guess thats the price you pay for being the soil guru here LOL ;-)

I had a question about a soil conditioner I have seen at Home Depot...It was listed as 50% pine bark and 50% compost.
Will this work well or does it need to be more than 50% pine bark?

You might be able to make it work, but I doubt any soil will work well that has a 50% compost component, but that's just my experience and opinion. You notice that I try to limit the combined peat and/or compost component of my soils to 10-15%?

I'm @ wk right now & duty calls, but I'll answer your other question when I get home.

Al

thanks for the reply didnt mean to pull you away from work;-)

Still at work???
Man your boss must love the long hours you put in LOL.
J/J not trying to rush you or anything ;-)

For anyone else that is interested,while I was surfing the net trying to find these items I came across Parkerbark.com

Anyone in or near Rose Hill NC should check them out,doesnt do me much good being in SC but I figured it might help someone else looking to make Al's mix ;-)

After you get to their site look at the products and check out their potting media.
They will even make custom mixes for you!!!

Hi Al
I know your probably still at work but if you have time when you get home will you get back to me on my above question?
I want to make sure to get it right ;-)
Like I said before not trying to rush you,just a friendly reminder.

Kev,
Why spend big bucks for shipping when the stuff you want can easily be found in your own area...Look at the post I wrote, thanking Al for his idea on soil, I told you where you can find it ok..:-)
Mike

Kev - Sorry - I stopped following this thread & completely forgot about your reply. Let's try not to get too caught up in terminology. Bark products, either fresh or partially composted are sold under a wide variety of names. I'll tell you how & why I use the different types of bark & you can see if it makes sense to you. If not, ask your questions & I'll try to answer. We're on Rich's dime, but I don't think he minds because the post is so old.

I like to use the fine, partially composted bark product in soils that are intended for use over a single growth cycle - maybe two, at the most. Because the product is partially composted, there is less N immobilization associated with it, and it retains its structure just fine - easily better than peat - so soils remain well-aerated.

I use the uncomposted product in soils I intend to keep plants in for extended stays. Remember that in the 5:1:1 mix, the bark is about 75% of the mix. In the gritty mix that I use the uncomposted bark in, it's less than half that @ 33% (equal parts of bark, Turface, granite). Since the uncomposted/fresh bark is a much smaller part of the soil, N immobilization is less of an issue, even though the bark is uncomposted.

. . . that give you enough info to figure it out?

Al

Ahh yes...Didnt know that you only used the uncomposted bark in the gritty mix and then the bark would olny count for 33%,thus not causing a problem.
Thanx for clearing it up for me.
Now it looks like I will be researching your gritty mix a bit more since I have been focusing mainly on your mostly bark mix. ;-)

Cypress mulch doesn't appear bad:

A Comparison of Landscape Mulches: Chemical, Allelopathic, and Decomposition Properties
Reference Type
Journal, Research (Article)
This study compared chemical, allelopathic, and decomposition properties of 6 mulches: cypress, eucalyptus, pine bark, pine needle, melaleuca, and a utility-trimming mulch (GRU). [UMN]

This study compared chemical, allelopathic, and decomposition properties of 6 mulches: cypress, eucalyptus, pine bark, pine needle, melaleuca, and a utility-trimming mulch (GRU). Eucalyptus and GRU mulches had the highest decomposition after 1 year (21% and 32%), while only 3% to 7 % of the other mulches decayed. Lignin and lignin:nitrogen ratio were negatively correlated with decomposition; high values resulted in low decomposition. Winter respiration of both eucalyptus and GRU mulches was high, and respiration was positively correlated with decomposition. Pine-straw mulch subsided from 9 cm (3.5 in.) to 4 cm (1.6 in.) during the year, while the other mulches subsided approximately 2 cm (0.8 in). Nutrient composition of the mulches was significantly different, with GRU mulch having the highest levels of calcium (Ca), magnesium (Mg), nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P), and potassium (K). Pine straw was the next highest in N and P. Soils under the mulches were acidified most by pine straw (from a pH of 5.0 to 4.4), followed by pine bark and cypress. In a standard test of allelopathy, all fresh mulches inhibited germination of lettuce seed, and although variable in concentration, all mulches contained hydroxylated aromatic compounds that could have caused these allelopathic effects. After 9 months and 1 year, pine straw and GRU still exhibited allelopathic effects on germination. Cypress, melaleuca, and pine bark retained their color after 1 year, while the other 3 mulches changed to a pinkish gray. [Abstract]

Authors
M.L. Duryea, R.J. English, L.A. Hermansen
Date Published
1999
Journal/Conference
Journal of Arboriculture
Publisher
International Society of Arboriculture
Publisher Location
Savoy, IL (US)
ISBN/ISSN
0278-5226
Volume
25
Number
2 Sub-Topics
Maintenance Specifications, Mulching
State(s)/Region(s)
Florida
Keywords
Decomposition, Eucalyptus, Mulch, Nutrient compositon, Pinus, Taxodium
Libraries
UMN

http://www.urbanforestrysouth.org/resources/library/Citation.2004-07-28.1055

Resurrecting an old thread here ...

So I'm on a pine bark fines quest to make soil mix for my fall container veggie garden. After poring over these threads, it seems that pine bark fines come packaged as several different things. So my question is ... as long as I find a pine bark mulch that is fairly fine, am I good to go?

And ... this might be an embarrassingly newbie question, but .... is all bark mulch essentially "composted" bark? Guess I've never really thought that much about mulch before.

thanks!

I have bought bags with uncomposted bark and going to let it to compost for next year.
I see at the beginning of this thread tapla's suggestion to mix it with hi-N fertilizer.
Question: how much fertilizer do i need to add to 2 cu feet of bark?
thanks

Basilette - the bark at the top of the first picture above is partially composted - the others are not, but as long as you find a conifer bark product that is finer than the uncomposted barks in the pics - you're in good shape. No need to be embarrassed, either. ;o)

Galcho - If you're going to compost the bark over winter, add 1/2 - 1 cup of something like 27-3-3, or a half cup of 46-0-0 (urea) to 2 cu ft of bark.

Al

Very interesting. Where are the directions for making these mixes?

You could start here for an overview and recipes.

Al

Thanks everyone for this great information on Pine Bark Fines.

Al,
I've been chasing these comments that have taken place over the last several years in order to answer my own questions but I guess I'm too bleary eyed to find it.

I'm trying to find your formula, showing the ingredients amounts, of your Blueberry container mix. Then there's that one called "gritty mix" - what is it for?

An hour and a half ago FE EX delivere my twelve 4-year old Southern Highbush blueberry plants, two each of Misty, Sunshine Blue, Sharp Blkue, Primadonna, Emerald and Southmoon.

Have you written a book that would help a novice like me? I live 30 miles northwest of Houston, Texas.
THANK YOU,
Spider Lily
PS
i'm also new at computer commentart.