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Trees in Containers

It's not much of a secret to many, that most of what I've learned about plants and plant-related science has come about as an outgrowth of my pursuit of at least some degree of proficiency at bonsai. Before the plants I grow become bonsai, I often grow them in the ground for a period before transitioning them to containers and then finally to bonsai pots. Often too, I simply grow them for a few years in containers before deciding to work on them or give them away.

I grow and manage a wide variety of temperate trees and shrubs, both deciduous and conifers, and 75 or more tropical/subtropical woody plants. I'd like to invite you to a discussion about your containerized trees and/or your tree problems. I will try to answer your questions whenever I can.

Energy management & root work are often neglected, so we can discuss those topics if there is interest.

Since I haven't grown more than a couple of Citrus, I'm probably weakest there, in the area of specific advice, but trees are trees and much of what I can share will also apply to your Citrus - just don't expect the same level of knowledge as I might have about other woody material, please.

Al

For in the true nature of things, if we rightly consider, every green tree is far more glorious than if it were made of gold and silver. ~Martin Luthersize>

Comments (157)

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pruning back hard is an arbitrary term, but it generally means a systematic approach to reducing the volume of the canopy by a considerable fraction - sometimes as much as 75% or even more. It's not unusual for me to grow a maple for several years in a systematic method which includes chopping the trunk off very low to the ground several times and starting a new top. This is 'hard pruning' to the extreme and is undertaken to induce rapid taper (a very fat trunk base tapering very quickly as your eye moves to the top of the tree. This gives bonsai the illusion of great age. OK - I'm off track here. It's also not unusual, once I have a trunk with nice looking roots and taper, to cut ALL the branches off & start over building the tree with branches where they naturally occur or grafting branches where they are needed for an attractive design.

    For YOU, hard pruning might mean pruning the lower branches back to 4-5 buds, and the upper branches to 1-2 buds, or removing some branches altogether. Upright maples are VERY apically dominant and it's required that you keep the top growth well in check or the vigorous branches will 'steal' all the tree's energy and the lower branches will decline & die. I never worry about the top of an upright maple. It takes no time at all to build a new top from scratch. I always concern myself with maintaining the vitality of low branches, lest they are suddenly not there to worry about.

    Pruning hard is used as a tool to balance energy in various parts of the tree, and to allow you to do certain things you couldn't do w/o pruning hard. If you do extensive root work, especially out of season, the tree is likely to shed the parts it cannot support with water nutrients. By pruning back hard - YOU decide which parts will be shed and prevent the tree from "making decisions" that could have a critical impact on the appearance of the composition.

    I often give talks & demos on how to balance energy & growth in your containerized trees, but it's a little more difficult trying to write it down so it makes sense and so you can visualize what I'm talking about. I hope it was clear enough?

    Al

  • iammarcus
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Al
    Are there any trees that cannot be containerized or developed into bonsai? The more I read here the less stock I put into "most trees cannot be containerized".
    Dan

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If I said that all trees can be containerized, I might be technically wrong, but the number of trees that really can't be containerized would be so small, if there are any, that the point wouldn't be worth any one's effort to argue. I'm pretty familiar with trees, fascinated in a way, and I don't know of any that can't be grown in containers. Even sequoias are trained in pots as bonsai.

    That takes care of the 'container' part of your question, but I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that some trees don't lend themselves well to being trained as bonsai. Some trees have large compound leaves that don't reduce well (in size) under bonsai culture. Others have very coarse growth and long internodes. Others have genetic traits common to the species that make them unattractive as small container plants, but almost all CAN be grown in containers. All eventually require root work if their level of growth and vitality is to be maintained, btw.

    Some trees are more work when containerized than others. For instance, many of my pines can go 3-5 years between repots, but the edible figs in large pots, mulberry too, have roots leaping out of every container orifice by late summer, even though they're repotted yearly.

    I find growing and manipulating trees into something evocative extremely rewarding. When you stand at the front of a bonsai tree with the tree at eye level, it should speak to you with its story. It should evoke the vision of a stately tree growing proud & unencumbered in the middle of a quiet meadow, or it should perhaps tell of its struggle for life against the elements on a craggy mountainside crushed by snow for endless months, then tortured by the sand-impregnated wind that has scoured it's bark to bare wood, leaving only a thin life line to support its sparse foliage ......

    Al

  • iammarcus
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Al!
    I feel confident in trying some additional tropicals, maybe even some date palms. My wife would have a fit if she knew I have serious plans for a greenhouse.
    Dan

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The secret is to pick a number and tell her that's what everything costs. "How much was that Quadrunner?" "Two hundred bucks." "How much was that bonsai pot?" "Two hundred bucks." "How much did you spend on the new gun and elk hunting trip?" "Two hundred bucks." Everything around here is 'two hundred bucks' ...... she doesn't even ask any more because it's been the same answer for at least 25 of the last 32 years. ;o) Of course, I've never been particularly frivolous or self-indulgent, so that helps. Well .... maybe a LITTLE frivolous ......... but only occasionally. ;o)

    Al

  • jojosplants
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    LOL~ Dan good luck with the greenhouse. ;)
    And the plants you plan on trying. You should be confident! The mixes are wonderful and Al is always so good about helping us!

    I love it Al~ LOL!
    Plants are my only treat to myself.. and I rarely hear fuss about it..

    Except the $200 strawberries.I got to pick 2 last year, so they were named the $200 strawberries... the total cost of all the ones i've killed in the past 10 years. :) lol..

    But when I remind hubby that the one or two bass from a fishing trip cost about the same per pound.lol.... he doesn't say much more. ;)
    When you figure the bait, gas and food for a camping trip to come home with nothing..lol..

    Actually,
    Thanks to your help and your mixes working so well for us, he's all gung ho this season..We got a new fig last night and pomegranite. He actually , willingly went with me to get them. :)
    And were looking into a few more fruiting shrubs, which I never would have considered in the past.!

    He really is impressed and pleased with how the garden is shapping up this year thanks to your mixes. :)
    And so am I! :)

    JJ

  • jodik_gw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Right off the bat, I have to admit I haven't read this entire thread yet. What I have read, though, is extremely interesting, and makes me quite confident of the severe root pruning I must do next spring to my small collection of containerized trees.

    I'm actually surprised that the thread didn't fill up by late spring, but I'm glad to see it resurrected... containerized trees are quite interesting projects!

    What would you call an attempt to maintain deciduous, woody plants in larger-than-bonsai containers, without hoping for fruit? Semi-bonsai? I dunno... I'm just typing as I think...

    Anyway... I've got a few interesting "project trees"... a group of twisted Wysteria vines in a 3 gallon pot, a red Japanese Maple in a 5 gallon container, and a very young pink Knock Out rose in a huge patio pot that began as a broken piece stuck in the soil. It rooted last year, and bloomed beautifully this year!

    My actual question is in regards to a banana tree I have. It's about 3 or 4 feet in height, give or take, and resides in a 3 or 4 gallon pot. I don't think it's a dwarf variety... it was sent to me by a friend in Texas. It was a tiny thing a couple of years ago, and I really didn't expect it to root and take off. I keep it outdoors from spring to fall, and it lives in a stairwell with a south facing window over winter. By the time spring rolls around, it's usually looking pretty poor... massive leaf loss over winter from lack of light and non-tropical conditions, I'm sure. The stairwell does get a little chilly.

    Is there any way I can un-pot it now and give it a slight root trim without damaging it? Or should I just opt to give it better medium and wait until next spring to do any root pruning? Is there a better way to keep banana trees indoors over winter?

    I can't remember if I've asked you about the banana tree before... the memory isn't what it once was. I'm pretty sure it needs help, though... it's getting big.

    So far, this thread is quite interesting... I'm learning a lot! I'm also finding everyone's choices in containerized trees to be very interesting! I think we should keep a thread on trees going... there are a lot of questions on playing around with... semi-bonsai? What IS the official word for this type of growing?


  • jojosplants
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Al,
    A little guidance please. ;)
    I went through this last night and am still not sure what to do about a few of my plants, or even what catagory they fall under. Evergreen maybe?

    I have 2 guava, and a pomegranite (sp?), both are evergreen, but do they go dormant? Our winters are fairly warm and temps really flip flop.

    All are in the 5 gal, they came in, so that tells you the soil. ;) (YUCK!)
    Right now watering is a pain, it just runs right out, and the center of them stays dry. I have to set them in a tray for a bit to soak some up.

    I really dont want them left in this mess all winter. So can I root prune and move them to a new pot now, and get rid of the garbage? I would like to get them moved into gritty mix as soon as possible.

    I lifted one out of the pot today, and all I see on the outside of the rootball is old dry brown, very small roots, no good healthy larger ones.
    Ant the tops of the soil is the same garbage. Thick with dead roots.
    Thanks.. as always..:)
    JJ

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jodi - I somehow missed your post. ;o)

    Bonsai are named according to their size. The 'rules' are somewhat arbitrary, but ....
    Keishi - up to 1 in (in height - top of soil to apex)
    Shito - up to 3 in
    Mame - up to 6 in
    Shohin - up to 8 in
    Kifu Sho - up to 16 in
    Chu - up to 24 in
    Dai - up to 40 in

    You were asking about small trees in larger pots that weren't actually bonsai ..... those are called 'hachi-ue'.

    Another term sometimes used to describe trees in the landscape trained to look like bonsai is 'niwaki'.

    For bananas in pots: Chop chop! Cut it back hard. Expose it to a light freeze (frost) or two - so the foliage gets black, then chop it back level with the top of the pot.

    Keep it cool 40-45* and very but not completely dry. When spring arrives, youâll see the new shoot coming from the center of the old leaves. Repot then, fertilize/water well, and move it back outside after danger of frost passes. I would use the 5:1:1 mix or similar for bananas. Might as well, you need to repot every year anyway. ;o)

    JJ - the guava is evergreen, and the pom can be either. Technically, the guava doesn't go dormant, but it can get so lethargic during cold spells you think it is. The pom can/does go dormant.

    The pom can be repotted in your zone after the leaves fall. I've never repotted a guava, but I'm guessing the roots are fine, like citrus, and it would probably be a good idea to repot in 2 operations. Maybe someone with more experience with guava/gritty mix can chime in and help. Wish I could be there to help you out - we'd knock it out in a heartbeat. :-)

    Al

  • meyermike_1micha
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    FANTASTIC information for me Al..

    It is awesome to know someone who guides me to grow such healthy trees of ALL sizes in my containers..

    Thank you so much..

    Hi Jojo and Jodi

    Mike

  • jodik_gw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow! Seriously, Al? Chop my banana tree to pot level? I don't know if I can! I'm afraid! :-(

    It's not a dwarf variety... it's just a shoot/cutting/whatever from a friend's yard in the Gulf area of Texas. I got it to root somehow, and I've been taking it outside for spring and summer, and bringing it back indoors, before frost, to suffer over winter in a stairwell with a weak southern exposure. The beautiful leaves it gained over summer are yellowing and dying as we speak!

    Last spring, I repotted it into a larger pot, and it grew considerably! It went from about 2 feet in height... to about 4 or 5 feet in overall height!

    So... I probably brought it indoors too early, then. In which case, what should I do? Should I still chop it off at pot level? Yikes! Help!

    Picture this, if you will... it's a 4 or 5 foot tall, rather thick stem with only 2 or 3 leaves at the top. The leaves are ENORMOUS!

    And, thank you for putting a name to the various bonsai sizes and types... very interesting!

  • jojosplants
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    LOL!
    Jodi, you sound just like me the first time Al told me that!
    I just got some banana's in a trade. And the info I googled says alot die back after a frost, and will regrow in the spring.
    I'm pretty sure you can trust Al. ;)
    I think he gets a kick out of scaring us though. ;) LOL!

    I put mine in the gritty! Oh no!
    Should I move them Al? They are not happy, I know that. They wilt in the day, then perk up after the sun passes the window. My computer was down when they came, so I couldnt ask, and just put them in the gritty.

    They have all opened up a new leaf though. :)

    I love all the Bonsai info you provided too! That's great seeing what all the types/names mean!

    Al~
    It is the guava I pulled out of the pot to look at. And it's the one I mentioned has all the dried fine brown roots around the edges and top of soil. I know they are all root bound and a mess!

    I've seen a few Poms around here that don't drop their leaves, micro climates maybe?
    So that's where it gets confusing to me as to when I repot. lol!

    ""Wish I could be there to help you out - we'd knock it out in a heartbeat. :-)""

    That would be so great! :) But are you sure? I have plenty here to keep you busy! ;)

    (Hi Jodi & Mike!)

    Thanks!
    JJ

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jodi - You can cut back bananas just like amaryllis. If you force them into a situational dormancy, they'll have lots more energy come spring, as opposed to if you'd allowed them to grow slowly where cultural conditions are poor. I tried to link you to a U of IL site that talked about overwintering as I described, but I kept getting yelled at for spam, though I have no idea why. I sent it to you by mail. They also wiped out my entire message, which was considerably longer than this one. Frustrating. ;o)

    JJ - If your pom wants to act like an evergreen, repot during the coolest months, but definitely before the spring push.

    The dead guava roots are probably due to heat build-up at the container wall. Very common. Often, the entire south/west side of trees & shrubs in containers die from the results of high soil/root temps due to solar gain. It could be from dessication, but heat is favored by the odds.

    The banana might be hard for you to keep watered in the gritty mix. I tend to prefer the 5:1:1 mix for those plants that are super-vigorous - bananas, Alocasia, ...... plants that need repotting every year anyway. Maybe a larger pot and a move to a more water-retentive soil in spring. If you still want to make your own soil, using Fafard's Aged Pine Bark as the bark fraction will increase water retention considerably.

    Al

  • jojosplants
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Al~
    Now why is this?

    ""Might as well, you need to repot every year anyway. ;o)""

    I thought i've read in my travels the 5-1-1 can last up to 2 yrs. Please correct me if i'm wrong. :)

    Or is it due to Jodi's climate?

    Will I need to redo mine every year? I was hoping to grow them year round. From what i've read I may be able to get away with it outside. :)

    I will get mine moved into the 5-1-1 soon! Thanks for that info!
    They were looking sad when they got here, (they don't take too well to being in a box. lol) and I had gritty already made, so I ploped them in it, then forgot to ask you which was better when I got back online. lol.

    I'll look into the Fafard. Not sure if its around here.

    The Guava's are in the black pots, so yes that makes sense about the dead roots.

    It lifted out and stayed together, so i'm pretty sure they are root bound.

    Thanks for all your help!
    I hope everyone is having a good night. We're off soon with the kids.

    JJ

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The 'need' to repot a banana yearly has more to do with the natural vigor of the plant and how fast it grows than it does with how long the soil lasts, JJ. There is nothing that says you have to repot yearly; it's just one of those plants that will perform better if you can see your way clear to.

    Al

  • jojosplants
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Al!
    That helps alot! I've never had them before, so I'm full of questions. ;) I have heard/read they grow fast.

    I'm not one for short cuts, so yearly it is. :)
    I don't mind the work at all, I actually find putting the mixes together and potting up plants very relaxing. :)

    JJ

  • jodik_gw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JoJo, I would guess a yearly repot on a banana would be needed because of vigorous growth... the roots will quickly colonize the space within its pot, and without a repotting, they would tend to get a little crowded.

    Ok... so, I'm gonna whack the sucker back hard, keep the pot on the dry side and in a cool, dark location... like my basement... and repot several weeks before the danger of frost is past, just to give it a head start on growth. Then, out it goes for another summer of sunshine.

    I'll use a better medium mix this time around, and find a decent container for it.

    Thank you, Al... I got your email with the article from the University of Illinois Extension, and it has some great information on wintering other plant types I have, too... like the Brugs.

    Wish me luck... here goes nuthin'! ;-)

    I, also, find the work to be relaxing, JoJo... for me, there's nothing like puttering around the yard and gardens, or puttering around my indoor gardens! In fact, I picked up more ReptiBark last night so I could continue my foray into situating some indoor plants for winter. It's not the best time to repot some of them, but it's the only time I have. Besides, it's very therapeutic... for me! :-)

  • jodik_gw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JoJo, I would guess a yearly repot on a banana would be needed because of vigorous growth... the roots will quickly colonize the space within its pot, and without a repotting, they would tend to get a little crowded.

    Ok... so, I'm gonna whack the sucker back hard, keep the pot on the dry side and in a cool, dark location... like my basement... and repot several weeks before the danger of frost is past, just to give it a head start on growth. Then, out it goes for another summer of sunshine.

    I'll use a better medium mix this time around, and find a decent container for it.

    Thank you, Al... I got your email with the article from the University of Illinois Extension, and it has some great information on wintering other plant types I have, too... like the Brugs.

    Wish me luck... here goes nuthin'! ;-)

    I, also, find the work to be relaxing, JoJo... for me, there's nothing like puttering around the yard and gardens, or puttering around my indoor gardens! In fact, I picked up more ReptiBark last night so I could continue my foray into situating some indoor plants for winter. It's not the best time to repot some of them, but it's the only time I have. Besides, it's very therapeutic... for me! :-)

  • jodik_gw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oops! Disregard one of two... internal error, apparently... carry on!

  • jojosplants
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A few Quotes I like~

    "All my hurts my garden spade can heal"
    Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Plants have the power to heal and to harm, the power to survive and sustain. They can bend the mind and inspire the spirit"
    Bernice Walkley Porter

    JJ

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jodi - next time you go to CHI, let me know! I'll direct you to where I buy my fir bark (in Dundee). $17/3 cu ft and $15 if you buy 20 bags or more.

    Al

  • jojosplants
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Al~
    I looked into the Fafard, and it doesn't seem to be available around here, so I will adjust the 5-1-1 for the banana's.
    JJ

  • jodik_gw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Amazing, Al... I grew up in Dundee! Well, in Dundee Township... a little out in the boonies. It's not the boonies today, though. It's all completely built up, and I hardly recognize the area when we visit!

    A stop off while visiting our kids would work out better... Dundee is closer to Belvidere/Rockford than it is to Chicago, and it would be just a quick jump off I-90. We usually travel up via 39/51, but it would be easy to hop on I-90 and head toward Dundee.

    I'd appreciate it if you could email me the name of the place, Al... I probably know it, just never knew they carried the bark! Excellent... that will help a lot! Thanks, Al!

    JoJo, I used to have a plaque in my garden that said,
    "The kiss of the sun for pardon,
    the song of the birds for mirth.
    One is nearer God's heart in a garden
    than anywhere else on earth."

    I don't recall who the author is... but I've always liked it. I don't know what ever happened to the plaque... lost in a move, or lost in a divorce... I'm not sure. I haven't had occasion to replace it yet, but I keep looking for the same one.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    To Al
    (or others with experience in repotting):
    I have 3 new mango trees that I want to containerize. I'm in the process of collecting the ingredients for "Al's Gritty Mix" and I have studied about the proper pruning techniques and pest control. What I need now is help with the actual repotting procedure. When planting in the ground the consensus seems to be to cut away the bottom and place the nursery pot in the hole and carefully cut the sides to keep the root ball intact. But how do I do the planting in a container?

    1. Do I want to remove all the nursery peat-type dirt from the roots and plant the bare roots in the new Gritty Mix?
    2. Will there be danger of root shock?
    3. Do I do any pruning of the roots if the tree was root bound in the nursery pot?
    4. Any other tips on proper handling of mango roots during repotting?

    Curt

    According to current thinking, the consensus that for planting in the ground you "... cut away the bottom and place the nursery pot in the hole and carefully cut the sides to keep the root ball intact" probably needs some updating. You can read what Linda Chalker-Scott, PhD says about disturbing roots, here.

    1) You DO want to remove all the nursery peat-type dirt from the roots, though not necessarily all at the same time on all trees. Trees with fine roots are often best switched to the gritty mix in 2 repotting sessions instead of 1. You can read, upthread, about how to remove pie-shaped wedges of soil and roots from, the root mass so you're actually removing about 1/2 - 2/3 of the soil at one time.

    2) How much trauma the plant experiences depends on a number of things. Timing plays a significant role, as does how you handle the plant/treat the roots during the repot. Reading my posts upthread (see those dated Apr 12, 08).

    3) Yes. Pruning roots of containerized trees on a regular basis to remove the larger conductive roots and make room for finer 'feeder' roots plays an important role in ensuring your plants have the opportunity to grow to their potential. I left the following description of how trees in containers might respond to repotting vs potting up on another thread recently.

    I often explain the effects of repotting vs potting up like this:
    Let's rate growth/vitality potential on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the best. We're going to say that trees in containers can only achieve a 9. Lets also imagine that for every year a tree goes w/o repotting or potting up, its measure of growth/vitality slips by 1 number, That is to say you pot a tree and the first year it grows at a level of 9, the next year, an 8, the next year a 7. Lets also imagine we're going to go 3 years between repotting or potting up.

    Here's what happens to the tree you repot/root prune:
    year 1: 9
    year 2: 8
    year 3: 7
    repot
    year 1: 9
    year 2: 8
    year 3: 7
    repot
    year 1: 9
    year 2: 8
    year 3: 7

    You can see that a full repotting and root pruning returns the plant to its full potential within the limits of other cultural influences for as long as you care to repot/root prune.

    Looking now at how woody plants respond to only potting up:

    year 1: 9
    year 2: 8
    year 3: 7
    pot up
    year 1: 8
    year 2: 7
    year 3: 6
    pot up
    year 1: 7
    year 2: 6
    year 3: 5
    pot up
    year 1: 6
    year 2: 5
    year 3: 4
    pot up
    year 1: 5
    year 2: 4
    year 3: 3
    pot up
    year 1: 4
    year 2: 3
    year 3: 2
    pot up
    year 1: 3
    year 2: 2
    year 3: 1

    This is a fairly accurate illustration of the influence tight roots have on a woody plant's growth/vitality. You might think of it for a moment in the context of the longevity of bonsai trees vs the life expectancy of most trees grown as houseplants, the difference between 4 years and 400 years lying primarily in how the roots are treated.

    4) Perhaps others who have repotted mangos can offer some tips. I'm sure you'll find lots of helpful information upthread. If you have specific questions, I'll do my best to answer them.

    Best luck!

    Al

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sorry - what Dr Chalker-Scott says about disturbing roots can actually be found here.

    Al

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for the link, Al!

    Boy, those recommendations (re: B&B trees) would cause WWIII over at the Conifer Forum! ;)

    Other than "Global Warming(tm)," proper planting technique generates the most inflammatory discussions.

    You know what they say, though: "The Truth has no Friend."


    Josh

  • jodik_gw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    No truer words were ever spoken, Josh! :-)

    From the B&B pdf... "Differences between soil textures will impede water movement and therefore inhibit root establishment."

    That's one of the major reasons I always remove the previously used medium from a root ball when repotting my plants. Another reason is that organic ingredients of the previously used medium will have begun to break down, and the potential for root rot towards the center of the root ball is great.

    That's a well thought out and written piece, Al... thanks for sharing it!

  • jane__ny
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The article addresses planting trees in the ground. I have always removed burlap from any trees planted despite the nursery recommendations. It is common sense. I always disturb the roots of any plant going in the ground or in a pot. I root prune all containerized plants when repotting.

    I have seen trees knocked over in storms with their roots still confined in burlap after spending years in the ground. People buy trees for Christmas and plant them outside after the holiday in prepared holes. But they leave the burlap covering the roots. The tree slowly dies.

    I don't understand the reasoning behind the nursery recommendations. It is so troubling to see mass plantings done with shrubs and trees burlapped. It is amazing that this advice is still given and followed.

    Jane

  • mangocurt
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanx Al for answering my recent questions about containerizing my 3 new mango trees.
    I do have 2 more specific questions now:
    1. I plan to do initial pruning to 2-3 feet per Richard Campbell at Fairchild Tropical Botanic Garden, but what do you think the sequence should be? Prune and recover before potting, or pot and then prune after recovering, or just do both at same time?
    2. The gypsum component in the "Gritty Mix" - does it matter if it is granular (pelletized) or powder?

    Curt

  • jodik_gw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's easy to understand, Jane, when you consider the profit/consumer driven society we live in today... the more trees that expire, the more trees an unknowing customer will buy. They will think they did something wrong... and indeed, they did... but because they don't know any better they will continue to follow the advice of the "nurseryman", and continue to replace trees.

    It's all about profit. It's an industry that, like any other, thrives on the ignorance and spending habits of the consumer.

    While it's true that a good nurseryman would not give such poor advice on burlap wrapped trees, most folks do not seek out the higher priced yet more knowledgeable Mom and Pop nurseries... they spend less and purchase from a big box store that doesn't specialize in plants. The "nurseryman" selling them the trees just repeats what his supplier has told him.

    It's all about our profit/consumer driven economy... and the consumer that doesn't arm him or herself with valid information before shopping.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would wait until the tree is well-established to do any pruning. Leaving the tree's photosynthesizing machinery intact speeds recovery. It also maximizes the increase in mass, if that is what you initially seek in a young tree.

    The gypsum pellets are 'prills' of gypsum powder, so as soon as the binder that holds the powder in prill form dissolves, the products are the same. Gypsum is prilled because it is easier to mechanically spread the prills than the powder. It doesn't matter which form you choose, though I prefer the prills. I think they allow the product to mix more uniformly with the rest of the soil particulates.

    Al

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks, Jodi, I missed your previous posts!

    Re: container tree going into the ground -
    I can say from experience with a Mugo Pine that properly opening the root-ball can mean the difference
    between a live tree and a dead one. I'm on my second Mugo now....but this one I planted properly.
    So far, so good.


    Josh

  • jane__ny
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    On my way back and forth to work each day, I drive past the corporate headquarters of a very expensive, European car company. For the past 3 months they have been doing extensive landscaping and stone work on approximately 10 acres. Huge project, involving blasting stone and major regrading of property. Walkways, stone walls, etc. I have watched each day in amazement at the scope of this project. Has to cost a fortune!

    For the past month, there must be over a hundred workers planting shrubs, trees and gasses. Some, huge trees brought in with cranes. Every plant I see going in is wrapped in burlap. There must be a thousand yews and junipers going in all wrapped.

    I would think if everything died in a few years, the landscape company would be in big trouble. I would assume they guarantee the work and would have to replace the dead trees and shrubs costing them a fortune. I would also assume the car company would not hire them again.

    Good business? Capitalism? I would think a project this size would put the landscape company out of business if it failed. I just don't get it...

    Jane

  • jodik_gw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    One of the keys, I would think, Jane, would be in how long the landscaping company guarantees their work for... if, indeed, they do... and exactly what is covered in that guarantee. Not all landscaping companies guarantee their plantings... especially if the watering and care is left to the customer. And if they're a large company with a large volume of work, getting this job finished quickly is the goal, and going back to replace a few trees wouldn't be of huge cost to them.

    Another key would be in length of time the planting will be there. By the time the trees begin to lose health, or before many expire, the property owners might even change the landscaping to include whatever trees or perennials come into popularity. Remember when Stella D'Oro Daylilies came into popularity? Everyone planted them! A couple of years ago, it was Knockout Roses... what's next is anyone's guess.

    Obviously, the company in question has a large bankroll... selling expensive cars is their focus... and if they're in a very urban setting, they probably aren't thinking about how those trees are going to look or perform in 10 or 20 years... they're only looking at the short term advantage of the new plantings... to be appealing to the eye, and draw in the customers.

    If you were so inclined, you could stop and ask the foreman what advantages he thinks are in leaving the rootballs wrapped... to see what his response would be... but I'm thinking it's all about the short term, the curb appeal... and in less than 5 or 10 years, those trees won't even be there.

  • jane__ny
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Who knows. The place looks like a small city with all the stone walls and walk ways. There are so many workmen doing all the plantings. I noticed today, some beautiful bushes have been planted. Hillside of Azaleas and Rhododendrons with clumps of other bushes. Frankly, anyone could just pull these bushes up and walk off with them. They are perfectly burlapped (you can see the burlap above the holes)and look like they haven't been dug low enough...easy picking.

    The 'park' is on a very busy street with no where to pull over. There's a stop-light and I watch the goings on while waiting for the light. The headquarters are at the top of this huge hillside. They blasted the entire area to put in all these walkways. Beautiful stone walls. Guess they have a lot of money to burn.

    It appears the work is done by a large commercial landscape company. The many workers appear to be immigrants who probably don't speak English.

    Lets hear it for GM and Ford!!

    Jane

  • mangocurt
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Al,

    I'm about to do the potting of my 3 new mango trees, and it occurred to me that the "gritty mix" will probably spill out of the holes in the bottom of the pot. Is it OK to place insect screen in the bottom to hold it in, or will the screen get clogged up with material over time and impede drainage?

    Trying to think of everything,

    Curt

  • jojosplants
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Curt,
    As some have said.."I'm not Al" but maybe I can help". :)

    Yes, alot of us use insect screen to keep the grit in.. and some use Plastic canvas, which is used for needlepoint.

    If your materials are well screened, it shouldn't cause any problems.

    I use it in all my containers, and they drain just fine.

    JoJo

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What JJ said.

    Al

  • kernul1
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Al,

    I had a question about putting small plants that I get from the nursery/garden center in the gritty mix (begonias, fuscias, trailing plants, coleus, etc..). Should I completely remove the old media/soil (using a bonsai rake and mister) or should I leave some of the old media/soil on?

    I know with bigger/older plants you have recommended (depending on which growing cycle they are in) to leave parts of the old media/soil in place. I wasn't sure if this applied to even the relatively new, smaller plants.

    Thanks,

    Bill

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The younger the plant, the greater its % of dynamic mass & the greater its 'will' to live. Also, all the cells are in juvenile phase and carry juvenile vigor, so they will tolerate more than older plants. Still, it's probably better to wait until spring to bare root. Most bedding plants can be bare-rooted with just a root pick or chopstick/skewer. If you or others are interested in a root rake, Dallas Bonsai has them on sale right now for $7, which is half off.

    Al

  • rysmithjr
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Anyone in the LA area that would like to teach a rookie how to root-prune this spring? I have containers outside with a valencia orange, bearss lime, 2 cherry, 3 peach, a white nectarine and will be adding a couple of plums, blueberries and maybe a banana in spring. I would like to move to Al's Gritty Mix at that time also.

    I can pay for the lessons, I just am the type to need to see something a couple times for it to sink in.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It looks like this thread is at its end, or only a post or two away. Occasionally these threads go over the limit of 150 posts, normally allowed. If you found it helpful/interesting, please follow the link below to continue.

    Thank you for your interest.

    Al

  • RoseMe SD
    2 years ago

    I would like your advice on what to do with this potted giant "plant". :) My preference is to keep it in pot but the current 24" box seems small for it?

  • RoseMe SD
    2 years ago
    last modified: 2 years ago

    @tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a). Should I add heavy fertilizer right away to let it rebound from transport? How much/frequency water does a massive champaca need in ? Also, I would like some tips on how to safely prune off the hanging lower foliages to not add to transport shock. Thanks!!!!

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    2 years ago

    I would like your advice on what to do with this potted giant "plant". :) My preference is to keep it in pot but the current 24" box seems small for it? Be advised that with a potted tree that large, blow-over is a major concern. "Small" is a relative term. If the root mass consists of primarily large roots that potted trees have little need for, and there is no plan to reduce the root mass by removing the large roots, the pot may well be too small. If, however, the intent is to do a full repot, the tree should easily fit in a container the volume of which is equal to or smaller than what it's currently in. If, aside from blow-over, your only other concern is getting it to fit in.

    Should I add heavy fertilizer right away to let it rebound from transport? Fertilizer is not plant food, and won't help the plant, can even hurt it if the plant currently has an adequate and available supply of nutrients. It's better to wait awhile and watch the leaf color. When you first get the inkling the leaves are getting chlorotic (yellowish), you can start your nutritional supplementation regimen. How much/frequency water does a massive champaca need in? No one can offer specific advice that's meaningful re this topic w/o taking into account the characteristics of the grow medium surrounding roots and the weather. Even subtle changes in weather can render good advice given today, detrimental tomorrow. I'll leave a short piece below about using a "tell" to help you determine when it's time to water. Also, I would like some tips on how to safely prune off the hanging lower foliages to not add to transport shock. Unless the pruning is severe, it won't "shock" the plant or burden it with undue stress. If you remove branches it reduces the area of photosynthesizing surface (leaves), which reduces the food supply. The result is, the plant will shed any parts of the root system no longer needed to keep the canopy hydrated and supplied with nutrients. This is constantly occurring with trees in the landscape as the location (depth, primarily) of the water supply changes. It is not cause for concern and the dying roots will not cause root rot unless you over-water. It is a natural balancing act trees are programmed to utilize to ensure economy of resources. Because of the trait, your tree will not grow more leaves than the roots can support; however, root growth always occurs before additional top growth, so your tree will not put on additional top growth until the root system is fully capable of supporting more top mass. The plant as a group of chemicals (hormones/ growth regulators) which keep 'plant central' apprised of the root:shoot ratio.

    Al



  • RoseMe SD
    2 years ago

    My cat tried to climb the tree and broke off three branches 😑😑😑.
    Will I need to apply pruning sealant?

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    2 years ago

    While the conventional view is that wound dressings are more counterproductive than beneficial, there is no question that wound dressings used on containerized trees limit the wound from growing larger by preventing the tissue surrounding the wound from desiccation, and speed healing of the wound by keeping the area covered by the dressing moist. I'm not saying the physiology of containerized trees differs from their counterparts in the landscape, it doesn't. I'm saying growers need to be able to think/ act w/o being a slave to convention.

    Alex Shigo Ph,D has done much work to explain the CODIT (Compartmentalization of Decay In Trees) process. Search Shigo CODIT to learn more about how plants 'wall off' injured areas to prevent decay from spreading beyond the barrier they form against decay.

    The proper way to prune a broadleaf tree in the landscape is to make (as your final cut in removing the branch) a downward cut from a point immediately distal to the branch bark ridge at the top of the branch to a point immediately distal to the branch collar at the bottom of the branch. Using this cut should ensure the branch collar will continue to roll over the wound.

    Since the primary concern for proper pruning lies in the idea that improper pruning (cutting too close to the lower order branch (the branch the branch being pruned is attached to) invites decay that can lead to the premature death/ removal of the tree due to structural failure. We needn't worry about any structural failures of our containerized trees, which opens to us the option of a flush cut, the cut that should not be used on trees in the landscape. This consists of removing the branch and any part of it that protrudes from the lower order branch it was attached to, so the wound is flush with the branch. In face, concave cutters and knob cutters are bonsai tools specifically designed to make a concave depression where a branch was removed.


    concave cutter ^^^


    knob cutter ^^^

    When you don't cut a branch flush, a rather significant lump forms at the wound site as callus tissue forms and rolls over the stub left after the branch was removed. That's ok/appropriate in the landscape, but quite noticeable on containerized trees when the branches are large, as in this image showing use of a sacrifice branch:

    The next 3 images are a maple after a trunk chop, moist sphagnum moss covering the wound, and the wound covered with aluminum foil to ensure the wound stays moist




    The wound after 3 years. ^^^ After 5 years, it was and remains completely closed, and after another year or two it would take a practiced eye to detect there was any wound at all, much less one nearly 3" in diameter.

    So, you know your options. If it was my tree, I would use a VERY sharp tool (grafting knife or utility knife w/a fresh blade) to shave away the outer part of the wound, just until the living tissue beneath is exposed. This will stimulate callus formation and hasten healing. Those branches appear to be very small, so what you're left with after cat practice can easily be removed from your list of concerns.

    For my very small trees, wounds/scars resultant of removal of branches larger than about 1/8" get a careful covering of water-proof wood glue. On larger trees, branches >1/4" usually get same treatment, but it depends on where they are on the tree.

    Finally, it's what's above a wound that provides the energy for the callus formation which covers the wound, so the more photosynthesizing mass there is above/ distal to the wound, the faster it heals. There ARE dormant buds above those branches, so avoid cutting anything back too far lest you endanger the viability of those buds.

    Al

  • RoseMe SD
    2 years ago

    So helpful! Thanks Al!

    Your bonsai trees are tiny why did you need to cut their branches? The big one looks like the leader branch too?

    My take homes from your answers are: 1) let the wounds healed on their own, 2) let the top branches stay full to generate energy to heal, 3) the tree isn't likely to die, 4) if I want to I can cut more to have the wound sit flush to the flat surface of the leader??

    I always thought leaving a little on decreases the chance of infection, as larger the opening leads to higher probability to organism entry?
    One more question, when should I remove the wooden stalk taped to the leader branch or just some of the tapes? Wouldn't a tightly bounded leader branch be limited on growth - both vertically and in width (even in pot)?

    I lied, one more question, what is the largest size tree in pot you have ever seen?

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    Original Author
    2 years ago

    Your bonsai trees are tiny why did you need to cut their branches? The big one looks like the leader branch too? There are many sizes of bonsai. Some are so small they fit in a pot the size of a thimble (or acorn cap)

    and others are quite large:

    These trees have just been lifted from raised beds I maintain and use to grow potential bonsai before they are moved to a pot. All of the trunks on these trees are thicker than a 12 oz soda can.

    This ^^^ (Chinese quince) is this spring's image several years later (after pruning and wiring) of the tree in the wooden box above this image. It's just starting to break dormancy. The trunk is about 4.5" in diameter, so it's a good size tree. The largest of bonsai are measured by how many hands it takes to move the tree about. A 4-hand bonsai takes two people (thus the '4-hands) to handle. I have none that large, but I do have trees larger than the one above.

    My take homes from your answers are: 1) let the wounds healed on their own, 2) let the top branches stay full to generate energy to heal, 3) the tree isn't likely to die, 4) if I want to I can cut more to have the wound sit flush to the flat surface of the leader?? Correct on all 4 counts.

    I always thought leaving a little on decreases the chance of infection, as larger the opening leads to higher probability to organism entry? I'm sure I've made more than 100,000 pruning cuts on bonsai trees, and refined/treated the wound on maybe 10% of those cuts, and have never had any problems with disease as a result. I take that back - I did have an issue with an apple tree, a pyracantha, and a juniper that had this cedar-apple rust thing going on between the trees and had to be destroyed. My belief is that one of the trees was an original host to the disease and I passed it to the second/alternate by way of pruning tools.
    One more question, when should I remove the wooden stalk taped to the leader branch or just some of the tapes?
    Any time, if the tree is self-supporting. Wouldn't a tightly bounded leader branch be limited on growth - both vertically and in width (even in pot)? I had already looked as closely as could at the grafting tape securing the tree to the support, and it didn't look bad, but eventually the tape would constrict thickening of the trunk and inhibit movement of photosynthate (food) and growth regulators moving through the phloem to roots from the top of the plant.

    I lied, one more question, what is the largest size tree in pot you have ever seen?


    Al

  • RoseMe SD
    2 years ago

    Errr......Did they literally turn a coffin into a bonsai pot? 😁