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kristimama

Al, do you have a 'Watering 101' post somewhere?

kristimama
15 years ago

Hi Al,

You're a popular one around here... and so gracious to share all your wonderful information. Even to a stubborn gal like me who keeps bugging you for more. ;-)

Do you have any good watering tips for containers? I've seen them here or there... the wooden dowel the size of a pencil (for testing moisture levels)... etc. But I'm wondering if there are any particularly important pieces of info about watering, how often, how to tell when a plant is thirsty, signs of over or underwatering, gadgets that might be handy,etc.

I realize that most plants will have specific frequencies of watering, but I wondered if there were any blanket statements you could say about most/all plant... along the lines that you have done with your Container soils & fertilization posts.

Thanks,

kristi

Comments (44)

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In a workshop conducted by bonsai master Ben Oki, one of the other participants asked, "How often should I water this juniper, Mr. Oki"?

    His reply, in broken English: "Wait until plant become completely dry - then water day before."

    I never did figure out if he was serious or not, but the advice was sage. His eyes were twinkling, but he had a straight face, so go figure.

    Dinner time for me, but I'll be back later to see if I can think of anything to share. (-;

    Al

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey, Kristi

    * Watering technique is very under-rated in container culture and can easily make the difference between success and failure. To illustrate: When an apprentice goes to Japan to study under a bonsai master, he will often spend 6 months or more doing nothing but learning how to water before he is entrusted with any work on the master's plants.

    Ask a greenhouse plantsman what he feels is the most important job in the successful rearing of a crop, and his answer will be "proper watering".

    * A generalization - the more often your planting needs water, the healthier the roots will be, as long as you don't forget to water. The need to irrigate frequently indicates good aeration and drainage, which insures that air is returning to the soil before anaerobic conditions cause the death of fine rootage. Watering also forces old, CO2-rich air from the soil and pulls O2 rich air in behind it.

    * Don't water on a schedule. Water when the rootzone is first dry to the touch. This can mean watering new plantings (shallow roots) when the lower parts of the container are still wet, but for established plantings, water when the soil at the drain hole feels dry - or use the sharpened dowel trick. Your sense of touch registers 'dry soil' when soils are still about 40% saturated. Plants, however, can still extract water from conifer bark and peat down to about 30% saturation - after that, water is held too tightly for plants to access.

    * Your soil should allow you to water at every watering so that water drains freely from the drain hole. The best way to water a container is: Wet the soil until you 'feel' the container is about to start draining from the bottom and stop. Wait 10 minutes and add additional water until about 10-15% of the total volume of water applied in both applications exits the drain hole. The first water allows dissolved solids to dissolve into solution, and the second watering flushes them from the soil.

    * If you cannot water as described above w/o risking root rot, your soil is inappropriate. You may be able to correct by adding a wick through the drain hole of the container to remove excess water in the PWT until the planting is mature enough to do it on its own.

    That should give you something to think about until others arrive with their own tips. ;o)

    Al

  • wormgirl_8a_WA
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree with what Al mentioned in another post - that picking up smaller pots to judge the weight is helpful.

  • kristimama
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey Al, thanks for this info.

    Can you tell me more about the dowel trick? I saw something that said to polish it like a pencil and stick near the roots. But how close to the stump and how far down? Will it hurt the roots? And, is it like with baking a cake... does the stick have to come out completely clean to be considered ready?

    Also, this is going to make me sound very blonde, but what is considered "wet" soil. LOL When I stick my finger down into the soil, the top 2-3 inches may be dry, and then about 3 inches down the soil starts to feel cool and look blacker than the top 3 inches. It's not exactly wet or moist, but definitely there's some moisture there. Almost like what a fresh bag of potting soil will feel like. Just slightly damp-ish. I regarded that as "time to water"...

    Have a nice evening.

  • mercurybutterfly
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Al, I wanted to chime in and say I really appreciate all the advice you give - this one about the dowel stick is a great one I'm going to try too.

    I have successfully planted all of my wine barrels here in Memphis. Each one took just a tad less than your 'large' batch called for, so I think I got the portions right!

    Outdoor watering, for me, is more of a challenge, since you are at the mercy of Mother Nature. Does your dowel trick also work for larger containers like mine? They are a good 20" or so deep.

  • calistoga_al ca 15 usda 9
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I hope you don't mind another old guys opinion on watering containers. It is so different from watering the same plants in the ground I must keep mentioning CONTAINERS. If you are using the correct soil for CONTAINERS you do NOT have to worry about overwatering as the excess drains away. If you are watering a dozen pots then go ahead and stick your finger in to test. If you are watering hundreds of containers, this method will be tedious. Al

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes it does, MB, try it ..... but you'll need a longer stick. (I kill me) ;o)

    Have a good day.

    Al

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    * ... wish I'd have thought to add: Water early in the day if you can to help keep things fungal from getting a toe hold. When it's HOT, better yet to water when during the heat of the day. Your plants will not only appreciate the drink, but they will also benifit from the reduction in soil/root temperatures that accompanies the irrigation.

    Al

  • kristimama
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Al, thanks for saving me a trip to Japan for a watering apprenticeship!

    I got the dowels today and tested all the blueberries and citrus. How fun and informative.

    Based on my findings, only my very biggest blueberry was really "dry" so it got some water. I read that blueberries need a lot of water, yet they're also sensitive to rot. Interesting paradox.

    I think this dowel thing will really help me understand plants better and how different plants (based on size or flowering or growth or sunlight) might use water volumes differently. For example, my meyer lemon was the only one that was really on the dry side, and it's also the one putting out the most new growth AND a LOT of buds, so I guess it's using more water right now than the others.

    I also used the dowel to see how wet it was at the very bottom of the pots... an none came out sopping wet but all came out a little damp. Is that the PWT? Since I'm using the bark/perlite/peat mix, I would expect to have SOME pwt, right?

    In any case, I know that citrus like to dry out COMPLETELY before getting new water, right? So for the meyer that looked "dry-ish" today, I will wait until tomorrow for water. Is that the right idea?

    THANKS!

  • jodik_gw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    For smaller containers, I have found that the little bamboo skewers available at the grocery store work very well. They come in a package of 100 for roughly a dollar, and are already pointed at one end... a good investment for testing the moisture level of my orchids and bulbs, which are all in smaller containers!

    I have found that if you're giving your plants the right amount of water, there's no way to maintain a "schedule". Each plant uses water as it needs to... and the warmer the weather and the more growth that's occurring, the more water you'll need to give. So, watering every Tuesday, let's say, is not going to result in healthy plants!

    Proper watering is definitely the most important aspect of growing healthy container plants... regardless of how good the medium, or the fertilizer program, or the container, it's the watering that can make or break a successful container garden!

    Now that I have my medium figured out, I expect to have a rather successful year gardening with containers. The right medium combined with good watering techniques adds up to healthy plants with healthy roots, not to mention beautiful flowers. Al has been very instrumental in the changes I've made, and I owe my upcoming year of success to him! I find these threads very helpful!


  • kristimama
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just wanted to mention that I found some really long bamboo skewers (for cooking kebabs) at Walmart this weekend. I'm going to try those instead of the 1/4" dowel... since I am having trouble using the same hole. I don't want to spend all summer poking holes in my roots. LOL

    Thanks for the info, folks.

  • kristimama
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey Al, what are the watering requirements when you have a temporary cold snap. We had 35 degree nights the last 2 nights and when I pulled the sheets of them yesterday, they looked a bit droopy. I resisted the urge to water them because I know they don't take up water when it's that cold... but I also just read today that watering them might help them not freeze. I'm a little confused.

    Thanks!

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey Al, what are the watering requirements when you have a temporary cold snap. We had 35 degree nights the last 2 nights and when I pulled the sheets of them yesterday, they looked a bit droopy.

    Transpiration rates decrease as soil temperatures decrease, so it is best for the plant when the soil remains nicely damp and fully oxygenated.

    We often see plants wilting in the spring, especially on sunny days, even when the soil is quite moist. The reason is usually because the cold medium renders roots less efficient. Compounding the issue is that cold water in the soil is also thicker, more dense or more viscous, making it more difficult for plants to access. When soil temperatures warm, or when air temperatures cool as evening approaches, the wilting usually corrects itself.

    . . . but I also just read today that watering them might help them not freeze. I'm a little confused.

    Plant tissues freeze and die when the liquid inside of cells freezes & ruptures the cells, but fortunately, plants have intracellular soluble organic compounds (inside of cell walls) that act as antifreeze for the plant. These solutes are most highly concentrated when water levels inside the cell are low. From this, you can see that a well-hydrated plant is more likely to freeze than one suffering mild drought stress.

    Al

  • kristimama
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Al.

    'Nother question, probably unrelated to the frosty nites we had.

    When it warmed up today I stuck the dowel in and most of them were dry-ish. None were bone dry, but none were "damp sponge" as another poster suggested to me.

    I have been dilligently trying NOT to overwater them, but I am wondering if I erred on the side of underwatering.

    Reason I ask is... when I added water to them, it seemed like there were whole chunks of the composted bark that lifted up and didn't hold water. I wonder if I got below that magic % of hydration.

    If I've let them become hydrophobic, what do I do now to rehydrate them?

    Thanks,
    Kristi

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Woman - me thinks thou dost worry too much. :o)

    Water moves through the soil by diffusion, and what FEELS dry to you may not actually BE dry at all. Bark & peat FEEL dry at about 40-45% moisture content, but plants can still extract the water in the media down to around 30% moisture content.

    I'll answer your question, but I'll preface it by saying - I don't think you should do it, but if you want to rehydrate the upper soil, do it by a few light mistings at 10 minute intervals. This will not add water to the already wet soil & will allow the upper part to rehydrate. If you think about it, it's pretty much an exercise in futility as it will simply dry out again as soon as you turn your back.

    If you think it's a real problem - try Coco-Wet, a surfactant & wetting agent.

    Al

  • kristimama
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    LOL Al, you may very well be right. I AM a natural born perfectionist.

    That said... I don't think I explained myself well. I am concerned that the bark fines dried out completely---i.e. hydrophobic---from underwatering. Can that happen?

    The reason I asked is that, when I watered, it looked like the bark fines really didn't seem to be "wetting" when I watered it. They just sort of "moved aside" for the water.

    It reminded me a little of what my old peat-based, store-bought mixes would do after they had dried out... back in the good old days of occasionally planting pot of annuals.

    But, like you advised, I'll try not to worry about it.

    I watered them a little longer to get them bark to look wet. It's a fast-moving soil, and it was warm yesterday, and they're in terra cotta, so, as they say in the 'hood... "it's all good."

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Can bark-based soils become hydrophobic from under-watering?

    Yes, it's much more likely that they would become hydrophobic from under-watering than from over-watering. (I kill me) :o)(o:

    Bark AND peat both begin to exhibit symptoms of becoming hydrophobic as moisture levels approach & drop below somewhere around the 30% mark. The advice above on how to rewet still holds, though. Several light applications of water over a period of time is more effective than an attempt to rehydrate by drowning. ;o)

    Al

  • kristimama
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Haha, I think mine was more like the drowning method. Thank goodness for warm california sun and your fast draining mix. LOL

    And really, your kind answers to my seemingly neurotic questions are VERY helpful to me and hopefully to other future readers wanting to understand the whole watering thing.

    As I process what I've learned, and apply it in the real world, it's really helpful to be able to ask these quick questions. A good mix of theory and practice. Science and actual know-how.

    Your willingness to help is much appreciated.

  • kristimama
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey Al,
    'Nother watering question.

    Now that the heat is turning up here (it was almost 90 here yesterday), the citrus have been looking droopy during the afternoons. The soil, when I pick up a handful, feels like a well wrung out sponge with just a little tack.

    Am I leaving it a little too dry, ya think?

    Anyway, my question is... is one of the beautiful things about your soil is that (in the warmer weather) we can sort of water indiscriminately, or at least don't have to worry about overwatering.

    Could I feel confident just giving them water each day or every day without using the dowel? I've now got 6 or 7 citrus and 4 blueberries and thats a lotta dowel sharpening... LOL.

    What does your friend in Fremont do?

    Thanks for your ever-willingness to help us all out.

  • polishpractical
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kristimama & Al,
    As I newbie, I have found your conversations very helpful.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks, PP.

    K - Your recent replants are just on small root systems that cannot supply enough water to keep up with transpiration. Plants don't drink water in gulps, they absorb it 1 molecule at a time from vapor and a very thin film of water on soil particle surfaces, It's not an issue of not wet enough if the soil is moist, unless the soil is moist in the deeper parts of the container and dry in the upper parts if that is where all the rootage is, but that's not too likely.

    Since adding more water will not help the plant take up additional water (may even inhibit uptake by reducing O2 levels), you need to slow transpiration until the roots are able to support it under stressful (heat/wind) conditions. To do this, shelter plants from sun and wind during periods of greatest stress.

    You could feel confident watering every day IF you're sure there is no perched water in the container. The object of using a fast soil is to eliminate perched water, so watering in a manner that will guarantee there WILL be perched water guarantees at least some impairment of root function/metabolism. The best and healthiest time to water is immediately before soil moisture levels reach the point where if they become any drier, drought stress is eminent.

    My FiF uses lots of Turface in her mixes & grows quite a few plants in just (100%) Turface. In the others she uses about 75% Turface & 25% fine fir bark.

    Al

  • kristimama
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Al,
    Thanks, I've rearranged the citrus so they can handle the transpiration better and already there's less wilt in the hot afternoon sun, without watering unnecessarily.

    Could I please ask you another question (well, 2 actually) in my ongoing Watering Apprenticeship, LOL?

    1) Is it a good idea when potting up from a nursery pot to completely bare-root a tree and get rid of the mix it came in? Or is it sufficient to just gently tease out the roots. I have started poking my little dowel a little closer in to the trunk and the established roots (i.e. the center of the pot) and found that it's moister there than in the outer few inches. (I'm glad I realized that, because I was probably at risk of overwatering if I kept up at the rate I was going.)

    In my blueberries and the first few citrus I potted, I wasn't very bold about teasing the root ball out before putting it into your mix. I mean, I did massage them out a little on the outside of the rootball, but nowhere near what I did by my 3-7th citrus where I was rigorously opening up the root ball and peeling away chunks of old soil.

    So what I'm concered about is that I have 2 distinct textures in there now with 2 different drainage properties.

    Would you bare-root them to at some point to get them all in the same mix? Is that an imperative thing ASAP, or something to do when ther plant goes more "dormant." Or, will the new roots just go out and colonize that nice faster draining soil it's sitting inside, and I'll deal with the bare-rooting next time I pot up in a year or two?

    2) When I watered my blueberries this afternoon, after pouring just a couple cups of water into the soil, the water drained right out of the bottom within a few seconds. These are fairly large 18" pots, and I was surprised by how fast that relatively small amount of water made it to the bottom. Maybe that's a testament to how quickly your soil mixes. But part of me wondered if I should be concerned that my bark/perlite/peat mix has accidently become hydrophobic, and that it's actually draining so fast because it's found a little channel to drip through quickly.

    I dug around a little into various places of the soil, and it was cooler, blacker, and a bit "tacky" to the touch. I wouldn't say it was "dry", nor was it "damp". I guess I was just surprised at how quickly the soil started draining out.

    Perhaps I should be watering with more of a "mist" setting?

    Thanks for your help!

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    2 questions, huh? ;o)

    Dissimilar soils or strata in containers with woody material is/are never a good thing because of the 'half of the soil is too wet and half too dry' thing. It's worst when either a portion of the soil holds water soo tightly it won't move into surrounding soil by diffusion, or when a portion of the soil is so hard and compacted that water never penetrates, or penetrates only reluctantly. My goal would be to get ALL the soil replaced with a stable, free-draining mix ASAP. In some plants (mostly temperate deciduous material) that can be accomplished during the first repotting. In other plants (evergreens, Citrus) it may take 2 or 3 repots to fully accomplish.

    With the plants I can't totally bare-root at repot time, I usually remove a portion of roots from the bottom of the root mass & then cut wedges out of the soil/roots. The next time I repot, I'll cut wedges from a different portion of the root mass. After 2-3 repots, all that is left in the container are the more desirable fine roots.

    When I water, I can immediately tell if the water is soaking in or if I need to wait for the soil to absorb a little water to overcome the hydrophobic affect. It's possible that your soil became too dry, but I really doubt it. Most people panic when they see the top inch or 2 of soil feels dry to the touch, but just because it feels dry isn't proof that it is dry. Soils still have/retain about 15% available moisture when they first feel dry to us. They don't become water repellent until that 15% moisture is used or evaporates (at around 30% moisture retention).

    If you want to use a very high quality tool to water your plants, may I suggest a Masakuni SN94 spray nozzle. You can put it on the end of the hose with a quick-detach fitting & a flow adjusting valve & have complete control of a very fine, easy to direct stream. I water ALL my containers with this high quality tool & have given them as gifts to some of my container-growing friends.

    Take care.

    Al

  • ronalawn82
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    kristimama, I realise that you addressed the question to Al but I could not resist the temptation. And Al, pardon my butting in. Watering '101' for me goes back many years and starts with the formidable-sounding statement that:-
    "Water moves along the path of its diminishing free energy".
    It means that when we water a grow mix, the particles take up some of the water while gravity tends to pull down what water it can, towards the bottom of the container. After gravity has pulled all the free water it can, we now have a grow-medium that has the solid particles of the mix and water ONLY. This condition is referred to as 'Field Capacity'. There is no air in there but this condition will start changing (drying out) immediately.
    If the container has drainage, gravity will continue to pull moisture out and, at the same time, water will be lost from the surface by evaporation. Left to itself, the grow mix will dry out but only up to a point. There will always be a film of moisture around each soil particle that will not given up. If we try to remove this (hygroscopic) water by heating, the properties of the grow-mix will be changed.
    As water is pulled from the mix, air is pulled into the the spaces in the mix. There are some people who believe that this aeration is as important a benefit as the irrigation itself. I always welcome that bubbly sound and sight as I water plants with a watering-can; I am changing the air in there for those roots. (Do you guys think I need therapy?)
    When we put a plant in the container, the situation changes- radically! (pardon the pun). The roots will take some of the water for nutritional needs and the whole plant will draw water for the separate process of transpiration. In my mind's eye, I try to see a stream of drops (molecules) of water moving from soil into roots and streaming through cells up and up until they are released into the atmosphere. I look at the droplet at the tip of the tomato leaf and try to comprehend the same process taking place in 100ft. tall forest tree. Talk about energy? What size pump will be required to to accomplish this feat?
    And it all comes to the energy thing. The plant is pulling water against gravity, against the mix itself, against evaporation. All these "againsts" require energy. It is a wonder that the 'poor thing' has any energy left over to look good, flower, fruit or anything else that we require of it. A great part of looking good appears to be "HYDRATION" (if I am to believe my wife and the bombardment of TV ads on the topic). In a plant turgidity is a 'looking good' factor. All the cells are well supplied with water and the plant stands tall and proud. A wilted plant hurts the eyes; crisp brown leaves do not a beautiful plant make. But it gets from turgid to wilted slowly. If we can recognise the first signs of stress, we can water; if we know (or at least try of estimate) the water usage by the time we water again, we can decide upon the amount of water and if this is all coming together, we will water the soil- evenly, gently with water of good quality.
    The best suggestion I can offer is to carefully observe and try to identify the first sign of moisture stress (it varies with different plants) in your plants and water when these signs first appear. Generally, the edges of the leaf will curl under, but not always. Another generalisation is curves are more indicative of life and health (did we not always know this?) than are angles. So watch the graceful arch of a palm frond or the leaves of the 'corn plant' when both are in good health and observe how the look becomes more angular as the supporting tissue start to show the stress of moisture shortage.
    It is my hope that readers will find this as enjoyable to read as it has been for me to write.

  • magothyrivergirl
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Does using a decorative cocoa liner in a hanging basket affect the aeration
    of the plastic or clay container inside using Al's mix and a wick? (The actual plants are potted in a container & only sitting in the decorative cocoa liner in a wire hanging basket.)

  • kristimama
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi everyone,
    As I continue to learn how to water my new container garden (mostly potted citrus & blueberries), I wanted to share an observation. I recently switched to watering my potted citrus with watering cans rather than the hose---and I was surprised when I discovered how LITTLE water they actually needed before water started dripping through the drain holes.

    Anyway, I have 12", 14", 16" and 20" terra cotta pots.
    The 12" and 14" pots literally only needed a couple cups---a couple CUPS!!---before water was draining out the bottom. The larger 16-20" pots didn't need much more than a few cups.

    Al, does that seem normal?
    (BTW, before you suspect I'm asking you to give me a specific measurement of "the right amount of water"... LOL... I'm just aksing if that approximate quantity---on order of scale---sounded about right.)

    Prior to using the watering cans, I had been using a hose and sprayer---and I really had no idea of the volume of water getting to each plant.

    Also, even though I had been waiting until the pots were appropriately dry using the dowel method, when I was watering with the hose, I was basically dousing the pots until it seemed like the entire pot was saturated, then the water would drip generously from the bottom for several minutes after watering.

    When I first saw the 12" pot drip after only a cup or two, my immediate thought was that the potting mix could have gotten too dry and that it was draining so quickly because it was basically hydrophobic. But in a previous post Al said that was unlikely---not to mention solvable with brief applications of the mist setting.

    So, Al, would it be a safe bet for me to make the following conclusions:

    1) I have probably been overwatering with the hose/saturation method (even though I thought I had been following your instructions "to the T" with the dowel.)

    2) By using less water (but still watering until it drips through the bottom), less of the overall potting mix will get saturated. And as a result, this will shorten the time between waterings---which is better for overall plant health?

    If these are true, then I think I've had an "a-ha" moment about gardening in containers. LOL

    Anyway, just thought I'd share this, and validate with Al if everything is right-on. I hope it can help someone else down the line, too.

    And that if I'm totally wrong, hopefully Al will set me straight. (Thanks Al!)

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It sounds like you have been, and still are, over-watering. If water is appearing at the drain hole in containers that large after only adding a cup or two, it indicates the soil is already wet when you're watering. I'm almost certain you're not witnessing hydrophobic soil in your plantings because of this and other posts you've offered. The object is to extend the intervals between waterings so the plant is nearly dry when you water, but not so dry it suffers drought stress. I've posted this quote before, but there is soo much truth in it, it's worth memorizing. "Wait until your planting becomes completely dry - then water it the day before." There is a story that goes with the quote, but I already feel redundant, so I'll skip it for now. ;o)

    Also, the object of irrigating containers is to evenly saturate the soil at watering time, or to apply enough water so that the entire soil mass becomes at least damp through diffusion of the water you DO apply. If a small volume of water runs directly through the soil, and we eliminate the possibility of hydrophobic soil, it's probably because you're applying it all in the same place & gravity pulls the water through the soil before much lateral diffusion can take place. Best, is to apply the water evenly over the soil, and slowly.

    Al

  • kristimama
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hmmmmm. You say I'm probably still overwatering... that's what I was a smidge afraid of. Ugh!

    I felt like I WAS "waiting till the plant dried out, then water a day earlier", but I guess I'll have to watch even closer.

    I will say in my defense, when I check using the dowel, it is completely completely dry when I water. In multiple places in the pot. At multiple depths. Close to the trunk and in the outer part.

    So perhaps it's your idea that I'm watering too much in one place... that gravity is the culprit of the fast moving drains.

    And thanks for clarifying that the goal actually IS to saturate the soil, but do it in a fine mist. I'll switch back to the hose on the mist setting and see where that gets me.

    Finally Al, hopefully you'll know how much your advice has helped me. I probably should have started with something small, like a bunch of annuals, but I got so jazzed about the citrus AND I am eager to be able to grow things my kids can EAT. So the stakes, as I've said before, feel higher for me than if I was just growing something decorative. (As if I don't have enough on my hands with 2 small kids at home, LOL.)

    Anyway, I don't mean to be a thorn in your side with all my questions. I know you have said before you enjoy sharing your knowledge, and I've read back years of posts where some of the same people who started out with questions like me are now able to answer questions so hopefully some day I'll be there. Anyway, I'm really benefitting from your help, even though it probably seems like I keep asking the same questions or variations on a theme.

    G'nite!

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's really no different - growing citrus in containers as opposed to annuals. The care requirements are similar - just that perhaps the $ value might be different. If I was going to test your abilities as a grower, I'd assign you the task of crowing radishes to harvestable size in a shallow container. If you can do that, you can grow anything, armed with the cultural preferences of the plant you're attempting, i.e.

    You really don't want to apply water in a fine mist, either. You want to use a water break, which is a hose-end device that breaks a single stream of water (that coming through the hose) into dozens, if not a hundred or more, individual, soft streams as it comes out of the device. The best ones maintain individual streams even at low pressures. I use a 12-15" Masakuni device that I attach to a flow control valve at the end of the hose and it is the best I've found. I posted something upthread about it.

    OK - sidetracked - back to not watering in a fine mist. You don't want to do that because many of the fungi that attack plant surfaces need a 'window of opportunity' to become established. In other words, the spores need a certain amount of time 'incubating' in moist conditions before they can 'hatch'. If you cover the leaves with a fine spray late in the day, and then you get an overnight dew, it greatly increases the possibility of fungi getting a hold, so apply the water directly to the soil & let the rain take care of 'washing' the foliage. This is especially true in areas with reduced air flow or in still wind conditions. With your dry wind conditions, it may be less important, but for others, it's a consideration.

    You always have kind words for me, Kristi, so I'll thank you for those and just say that you're welcome to any help I might be able to offer. I'm sure that once you confirm the validity of the advice that I and many others have offered, you'll be one of those able to offer recommendations based on what you've learned and your own experience(s).

    Al

  • kristimama
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey Al,
    OK, so a little update (and of course more questions as I type this... LOL)

    I'm pretty sure that the water was running through quickly because of gravity. I was using a big spray setting with the hose, not to mention when I used the watering can the droplet size is huge, like the size of a pea.

    I tried watering today with a lower water pressure and applying an ever-so-gentle squeeze to my cheapie $5 spray nozzle on the "Center" setting, creating a dozen or so equally sized fine sprays. I continuously moved the sprays around the pot to cover the entire area. I spent many long minutes (seemed like about 10-12 minutes for a big 16" pot) just gently watering the surface, then I stopped before water was coming out of the bottom. A few minutes later, slow drops of water started coming from the drain hole. At that point, I watered another minute or two, and then stopped. Does that seem about right?

    I realize I SAID I didn't want you to give me a quantifiabe number of how much water a plant needs, but I have changed my mind. LOL Mostly because somewhere up thread or on another thread, you said it's important to water "just up to the point you FEEL like it's saturated", then do a little more. But I'm no Jedi Watering master, I have no "feel" for this (clearly) and it might help me to understand, even in terms of big brush strokes, what is the "right amount" of water to saturate a pot that is full of roots and potting mix. Is there some rule, or even ballpark number, that seems like the "right amount" on order of scale? Is it an overall percentage of the pot volume (i.e. 20% of pot volume, 100% of pot volume, etc.)? Or is it the size of the approximate root ball? Or is it a couple cups vs. a couple gallons? If you were to look at a 14" or 16" terra cotta pot that you determined was completely dry and ready for water, what size water can would you reach for? At the very least, could you tell me how many minutes you spend watering a pot that size, using the spray you described? I'm anticipating you telling me that it's not possible to give me a number, but if you could try to give me some analogy, it'd be much appreciated.

    Another question I have is: what do you use when you apply your liquid ferts? I thought I saw you say (here or some other post) that you use regular old 2 gallon watering cans for "weakly, weekly." So when you apply liquid ferts, how do you handle the spray and saturation, etc.

    It'll be nice to get a handle on these things because our local water board is meeting in the next day or so to vote on 50% mandatory water cuts (or stiff penalties). Darn it, why did they have to do that the year I planted a sod lawn, bought a bazillion citrus trees, and started a Square Foot Garden. LOL.

    Anyway, once I get a handle on how much water a plant needs and how to apply it so it doesn't run right through the pot from gravity, it looks like I'll be using my watering cans more often. I've started saving the shower water (as the tap warms up) in large barrels outside. Is there some way to get water from those barrels into a fine spray? I thought about maybe one of those pesticide sprayer barrels that you pump (filled with water of course) but if it turns out each plant needs a gallon of water I'm gonna get bursitis from all that pumping. LOL So you see, why I'm hoping you'll indulge me and throw me a number? LOL

    As always, I really appreciate your help. I've spent most of my 37 years NOT gardening and have really discovered how much joy and gratification and warmth you can create in your yard with plants. Having this dialog with you and reading your other "conversations" with other posters I always learn something new. And I'm quite certain that without your continuous advice on the potting mix and now the watering, my plants would be suffering.

    And this watering information is particularly timely, since it looks like we're headed into an unseasonably warm spring and summer. It was 90 degrees today, and it'll be 100+ by Thursday. It's not even June yet. This is definitely NOT the Bay Area of my youth, man. LOL

    Have a good evening,
    Kristi

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I spent many long minutes (seemed like about 10-12 minutes for a big 16" pot) just gently watering the surface, then I stopped before water was coming out of the bottom. A few minutes later, slow drops of water started coming from the drain hole. At that point, I watered another minute or two, and then stopped. Does that seem about right?

    Yes - this is very close to the ideal way to water - as long as your soil is fast enough to allow you to completely saturate the soil w/o risking root rot because of excess water retention (this last - more for other reader's benefit than yours). Ideally, you would water slowly to nearly saturate the soil and then return a few minutes later & add additional water to flush out excess salts.

    You went on to ask about how much water to apply. I water the same way EVERY time I water. The exception would be when plants/soils are very cold. Then, I might temporarily water in sips until plant growth and transpiration increase & the plant is using more water. Maybe it will help if I say that the ideal state of the soil is to have just enough moisture available so the plant is not experiencing any drought stress. This feels surprisingly dry to human touch, so we usually settle for moist to damp and call it good (which also helps prevent accidental problems if we can't be around to water). Using a soil that supports no perched water requires a little more effort, but it insures that the state of the soil, with regard to moisture levels, is ALWAYS in that moist to damp range. IOW, you were right in "anticipating my telling you that it's not possible to give you a number". ;o)

    . . . . what do you use when you apply your liquid ferts?

    I mix the fertilizer in 2 - 2 gallon watering containers at a time. I then pour the water into smaller (2 L.) containers with fine, homemade spouts on them so the water comes out in a fairly fast stream, but is really easy to control. That way I get the soil surface evenly watered/fertilized. For larger plants with no foliage near the soil, I just use the large can. I try not to get fertilizer or water on the foliage. I don't worry about fertilizing a "dry" container planting because I use weak fertilizer solutions and I would never fertilize a wilted plant. For evergreens, I usually check the soil to be sure there is moisture, or just water first. Sometimes I fertilize a few hours to a half day after I water.

    Take good care, Kristi.

    Al

  • kristimama
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey Al,
    Well, it was 102 here today, and I was thinking about all the things I have learned from you. Thanks!

    1) I moved all my potted plants away from a western-facing wall during the worst part of the heat after about 2 pm today.

    2) I remembered, when I saw the curled or wilting leaves, that it COULD be from transpiration (and the plant just not necessarily taking up water fast enough) and NOT necessarily from being dry. (Withouth that, my first instinct would have been to water.)

    3) I took out my handy dandy dowel, sharpened it, and tested each pot.

    Here's where my question come in (you knew there would be at least one, right?):

    You said, "Just enough moisture available" feels "surprisingly dry to human touch." When I dip the sharpened dowel into the pots, most of them came out with just the slightest HINT of damp, just a slight bit of tack to the touch. The sharpened point (which started out white new wood) came back slightly darkened. Not wet, but darkened by contact with the potting mix. For 2 of the pots, the sharpened part of the dowel came out without changing color itself and the dowel had no trace of any moisture, or soil, or even a change of color. those were the only 2 I watered. Is that the idea?

    Is that true just for potted citrus, or pretty much all perennial shrubs?

    Thanks,
    -kristi

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That should work well for you until you can run on instinct, which will happen pretty quickly - once you learn the habits of each planting with regard to water usage. You could also just push a wick up into the soil & only water when the wick is dry where it comes out of the container.

    You DO need to use some judgment when testing this way though. If you have a plant with roots that are only 4" deep in a 12" deep pot, you have to remember that then, you're interested in what the moisture level is at the 4" level. It's generally not too far off from what it is at the bottom of the container when you're using a fast soil, but it can make a day's difference in deciding whether to water or not.

    Al

  • tanyag
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    So to add to the mix of questions (no pun intended)...what do I do about watering when I go on a two week vacation? I must admit I was lazy this year...okay, not lazy, just precautious. I had back surgery in November and am not even supposed to be gardening, but God help me, I can't stop myself. My husband had been entirely overworked and I couldn't stand to ask him to help me round up everything needed to mix the soil I know I should be using in the quantities I needed and then actually have to do the work to mix it up since I couldn't have done it. (Of course, now my back is doing much better than it was two months ago even, and I could mix the soil with a little help from my husband, but I can't distrub the root systems of my fruits and veggies.)

    At any rate, we simply bought two big bags of Miracle Gro Moisture Control Container Soil. It is a mixture of coir/bark/peat/pumice/perlite/fertilizer. After planting in it, I have found with the little rain we've been getting, I don't have to water my big 20" pots at all and only have to water the small ones every third day or so. Our temps have been mild to say the least. We've only had three days in the nineties and today it is 65 degrees out. It's May 17! I can't believe this. Now, I will say that the soil stays moist a long time, but it is by no means soggy wet. I do not think that I could pick it up and squeeze out any water, so that is a good thing. However, I also don't think that it has the same beautiful porosity that Al's mix, which I normally use, has.

    Anyway, In July, I am going away for two weeks and know that 65 won't even happen in the mornings and my plants will need much more water. There are tomatoe plants, peppers (bells and jalepenos), herbs, one black berry, and a Mexican Lime tree. The pots are all different sizes so would need water at different times, and weather is unpredictable here in July. It can rain everyday or not rain at all for days. I want to get a timer to water, but what in the world do I do about setting it? If I set it to water every day and it rains every day, I am worried the soil will be too soggy. If I set it water every third day and it doesn't rain at all, things will wilt. Any suggestions on what to do would be greatly appreciated. I have two months to figure this out. I have a friend who gardens that might be able to come over and change the setting on the timer if necessary. I was going to ask him to come over and pick any ripened veggies and fruit for his family during my time away anyway.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have the same difficulty with my bonsai. Most require water daily, but daily watering for a week or more will kill some of the pines and junipers. My wife is the person I depend on when I go to conventions or away on business, but she can't even grow taller, let alone plants. She has no clue what to do. Then, there are the containers I build for garden displays that need watering at different intervals. It wouldn't be fair to her to make a list of some 300 plantings & expect her to keep things straight, so she waters the stuff with needles every third day and everything else every day. I occasionally come home to a few dead plants, but I have convinced myself that it's for the best & is natural selection at it's finest - only the strong survive.

    Clowning aside - you have a problem. I would set the timer for the interval you think is best & trust your gardener friend(s) to turn off the water supply if there is significant rain (not usually very effective at curing plant thirst, btw). Hopefully the bribes will work. ;o) Sorry I'm not much help.

    Al

  • kristimama
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'd probably rely on the friend, even just to check the automatic watering and to help themselves to the produce. But I guess it depends on your level of comfort giving specific instructions to that person.

    Me, I have an older neighbor who is great and means well, but also thinks he knows every single thing about gardening. I would never dare tell him how to water my plants, or at least never try to tell him the "theory" behind what Al says. He's more than likely to crank on the hose, and drench each and every pot until soaked.

    I would probably also move the containers to a place where they might get less rain/direct sun/extreme changes in weather. Like a partially shaded part of the yard, or a covered porch, or wherever in your yard they might get the types of extremes you described. Then perhaps you can be more predictable in the watering needs while you're gone.

    Good luck,
    -k

  • tanyag
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Luckily, they are in a spot that gets morning sun up until around 2:00 PM. My dad always says that around 2pm is when the sun is hottest. I don't know if this is true. So I guess I'll wait until closer to when we leave to see what my watering needs are.

    I use a water meter to determine when to water instead of the chopstick. It is just as thin as a chopstick so I don't think it does any more damage than a chopstick would. I don't stick it directly into the rootball but rather about an inch in from the outer rim of the pot. It has three marks within three levels: wet, moist, and dry. When it gets to the mark between moist and dry, that's when I water. I stick it all the way into the soil so as to get to the bottom. I hope this is an effective way to do it. Thanks for your help~ Tanya

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The water meter measures how much electricity will frow through the soil and is a more accurate indicator of conductivity than moisture levels. To illustrate: insert the probe into a glass of deionized (distilled) water. It will read dry. Sprinkle a little fertilizer or table salt into the water & swish, and the reading will indicate the water just got wetter (w/o adding a surfactant). ;o)

    Al

  • hdladyblu_2007
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    this is really getting serious.lol

  • hdladyblu_2007
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    i'm sorry to be a wise-ass,i've just always seemed to know when my plants need water;it seems less is usually best.

  • puglvr1
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Al,

    " My wife is the person I depend on when I go to conventions or away on business, but she can't even grow taller, let alone plants"

    Thanks for the laugh Al, that was hilarious!!

  • tanyag
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I did not know that about water meters. Oh well. My guess is that it still picks up moisture even if it is picking up the salts or ferts within the moisture. If the soil is dry, the ferts are still in the soil, but the water meter reads dry. It would seem then that the moisture does have something to do with it because I can't stick it into the table salt or bag of fertilizer and make it read moist. I just tried.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is a good thread.

    Al