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prairiemoon2

Sifting Bark Fines Question...

I found some pine bark fines by Agway which are labeled chips. I was told I am supposed to then sift them with 1/2 inch hardware cloth. I'm not clear about what I'm supposed to use, the small particle sizes that fall through the hardware cloth, or the larger particle size pieces that won't go through the hardware cloth?

Comments (17)

  • seysonn
    9 years ago

    Can you post a picture of couple of fistful of it ?

    It depends on how much of it is , say smaller than 1/4", and so forth. Too much of 1/2" is not all desireable. I would stick with 3/8" and smaller chips.

    Also remember that you need BARK cips not SAPWOOD chips. That is why a picture can clear it up.

  • maple_grove_gw
    9 years ago

    Hi PM,

    I also use the Agway brand of pine bark mulch. Use the smaller particles that fall through, not the larger bark which is filtered off. Sometimes the Agway material does contain a bit of sapwood (yellow "matchstick" pieces); it's helpful to pull out as much as you can as per seysonn's comment.

    If you like, you can use the larger bark fraction to mulch the garden. Hope this helps!

    Alex

  • edweather USDA 9a, HZ 9, Sunset 28
    9 years ago

    This is the only suitable Agway product that I know of that is good right out of the bag. Photo is a couple of years old. No sifting necessary.

  • maple_grove_gw
    9 years ago

    Indeed, that is the product I use. Agway does not market any product called "chips" and I presume this is what OP refers to. They also produce "PB nuggets" and "PB mini nuggets", which are not useful for 5:1:1.

    Like most brands, there is some batch to batch variability and I find that it is usually necessary to sift out larger pieces from the pine bark mulch. There can be some pretty large chunks, maybe 20% by volume.

    This post was edited by maple_grove on Mon, May 5, 14 at 11:12

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Very happy to hear that this is the right product and that others have used it successfully. ItâÂÂs very accessible for me and that solves that problem.

    So, I need to pull out any sapwood [yellow matchstick pieces] as I see any.

    Ed, that is the exact bag of Mulch I have. Imagine being able to use it right out of the bag, that would be great. And thank you for the photo.

    I may try to sift it, as MapleGrove suggests there is variability, just to see how much of a percentage are larger pieces and if hardly any of them are then IâÂÂll just use them right out of the bag. And when I try to sift it, I will use what falls through the 1/2 inch hardware cloth. And I like the look of this product for mulching too, so IâÂÂll do that, use what I filter off for mulching.

    I don't know where I got the term 'chips'. I heard it called that by someone, but you're right, on the bag it says bark mulch like in the photo. They told me at Agway that this was the smallest particle that I could get.

    It was Mike on the Houseplant Forum who told me he bought this product and specifically said the blue bag. When I got to the Agway, they knew Mike and the product he used. So I'm sure I have the right one.

    So, all good news. Thank you all for the help! :-)

  • the_yard_guy
    9 years ago

    prairiemoon,

    I'm glad you have access to this Agway pine bark. I have never used this particular pine bark mulch since there are no Agway stores in my area but other members of this forum speak very highly of it.

    Yes you are correct. For the standard 5-1-1 mix you should screen the pine bark with a 1/2" screen or hardware cloth. Anything that passes through the screen is usable for the 5-1-1 mix. If your bag of mulch contains a large portion of fine material (1/8" to dust) then you may be able to reduce or eliminate the peat portion of your 5-1-1 mix.

    Good luck and happy screening.

    TYG

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks TYG, that is also good news, that with some fine material I could reduce the peat portion. I am looking forward to seeing what I come up with. It's not always easy to find a good product and the right product for what you need and especially with this 5-1-1 mix, so I'm happy to have it. I spent a couple of years, wanting to try this mix and with minor efforts to find it and not finding it, I kept dropping the idea. So I'm looking forward to seeing how my plants do with it too. It's been awhile waiting to.

  • njitgrad
    9 years ago

    Click the link below if you want an idea of what Agway pine bark looks like after 1/4" screening. I thought it was too gritty so I eventually ended up building a new 1/2" screen and then re-screened it all.

    Here is a link that might be useful: 1/4 inch screened Agway pine bark

    This post was edited by njitgrad on Tue, May 6, 14 at 9:09

  • njitgrad
    9 years ago

    And here is a link to some of my containers with 1/2" screened pine bark. Unfortunately my broccoli isn't doing very well at all.

    Here is a link that might be useful: 1/2 inch screened Agway pine bark

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    njitgrad, thanks for those links. Very appreciative of seeing how everything looked as you sifted first with the 1/4" screen and then the 1/2" screen. And good to know that only 20% of the bag is not usable for this purpose.

    I'm sorry your Broccoli is not doing well. I hope you are able to figure out what the problem is and they start catching up with where they should be.

    Hard to get everything right, isn't it? [g]

  • the_yard_guy
    9 years ago

    Prariemoon,

    Yes it is very difficult to get everything right. Also it's interesting to note that there is a wide variance in what our soil mixes can be, depending on what we are growing and where we live.

    For instance, I modified Al's 5-1-1 soil mix into something that works well for my trees growing in small plastic pots. I basically use only pine bark (screened with 1/2" hardware cloth) and crushed granite, with added lime. Since my pine bark has so much fine material I do not need to add peat, and the granite takes the place of perlite. I will attach a photo for reference.

    So you grow something very different and therefore you may need to add different ingredients in order to make your plants happy in your mix.

    yes it is hard to get everything right...

    TYG

  • cooperph
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Bump! I have a question about "superfines".

    I just finished sifting a 2 cubic foot bag of "Magic Mountain" bark mulch. I now have maybe 12 quarts of coarse chunks, 1/2 in and bigger. These I will use as mulch. Then I got around 18 quarts of medium pieces, ranging from maybe 1/8 to 1/2 inches, these I was going to use in 5:1:1 or 1:1:1 mixes. Lastly I got about 20 quarts of what I took to calling "superfines". This is the powdery stuff of at most 1/8 inch or less, mostly I'd say it was 1/16 in and smaller. The superfines look and feel somewhat like peat moss, but smell wonderfully piney, so I'm thinking they could not be said to be composted or decomposed, at all. What can I do with this stuff? I have raised beds as well as containers, so I was thinking to just mix the superfines into the raised beds. But, I worry about them sucking up Nitrogen. Would I need to add, say, cottonseed meal at the same time?

  • edweather USDA 9a, HZ 9, Sunset 28
    8 years ago

    the superfines can go right into the 511 mix

  • rooftopbklyn (zone 7a)
    8 years ago

    I know lots of people like that agway mulch but the product (bag is same) I find in New York State agways last few years (tried 3 bags 3 diff years) has been unusable without screening (I tried). Way too many fines, and a large portion of huge pieces. My plants didn't die, but drainage was very poor even without any peat. It is my bark of last resort, tho very cheap at $5 for 3 cu feet. Just wanted to share my experience. I have made hundreds of gallons of 511 - I really wish the agway mulch I can get was better.

  • cooperph
    8 years ago

    So the superfines would take the place of the peat, right? Because I would have thought the particle size is too small to use in place of the regular fines. Wouldn't the peat hold more water than the superfines, though? If so maybe I should do 5: 1.5: 1 or even 5:2:1?

  • CEFreeman_GW DC/MD Burbs 7b/8a
    8 years ago

    Now I"m confused. Such emphasis on the particles being of the same size or water retention isn't the way it should be. Now I'm hearing the micro-fines are OK!?

    I have my list and I'm going to the different stores tomorrow to stock up for serious repotting efforts. Out of anerobic sludge into gritty mix this fall. I just want to do this right the 1st time.


  • rooftopbklyn (zone 7a)
    8 years ago

    Uniform particle size within some tolerance is useful to control the amount of air/oxygen that get to the roots and also water retention. Particles that are too small ("fines") cause more water to be retained, which can be advantageous or not, depending on your environment. When starting out, it's best to eliminate variables as much as possible which is what Al's mixes are designed to do.

    For Gritty mix, precision is more important, especially as it's designed to potentially last for years. It is recommended that your gritty mix be free of fines (less than 1/8th of an inch ideall, but usually less than 1/16th of an inch, achieved by screen with "normal" window screen out of practicality)

    511 is meant to be replaced annually, though some people use it for 2 seasons (including myself, depending how much time I have). I also mainly use 511 for outdoor plants, where extra water retention can be useful in my summer climate. 511 is meant to be easier to make and less precise and shorter lived.

    Too many fines ("superfines") will impede drainage, causing water to pool at the bottom of the pot ("perched water table") and making those roots unhappy. Your plants won't immediately die but they also won't thrive to their maximum potential - but "good enough" is in the eye of the beholder/grower.

    While some materials absorb/hold more water than others (peat vs bark), once particle size gets small, the issue is less about absorption properties of the material and more about gravity and physics due to geometry - lots of fines pack into all the spaces between the larger particles and water has a hard time penetrating the media evenly. This really becomes an issue when the proportion of very fine particles is relatively high. These small particles also tend to congregate towards the bottom of the pot, right where you don't want them.

    Mix some up, wet it first, in a bucket or something (important), put it in a smallish pot (6 - 10 inches), water it, and see what happens. "good" mix should start draining quite quickly. If you tip the pot 45 degrees you should not get a puddle on the top - if you do, you probably have more fines than are ideal - this is the perched water table showing.

    Once you have a feel for what works, you can start adjusting to balance your needs against that of the plants. Maybe the plants are happiest with quick draining media that is watered daily, but maybe you only have time to water every two days. This is your choice as a grower. Most of us garden for enjoyment, so if your doing something that is enjoyable to you (takes too much time), do something else, and while your plants may not reach their theoretically maximum happiness, it should be completely possible to find a happy medium that works for both you and the plants.

    While long, I highly recommend reading, and re-reading Al's omnibus on water retention in containers - it should be hard to miss if you spend any time on this forum, sorry I don't have the link handy but someone here surely does.