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themastergardener1

100% peat moss?

TheMasterGardener1
12 years ago

Can it be done? I have 3 Cu Ft of peat moss and no perlite. I currently looked at my local stores and HD and there is no perlite worth the money. I have a garden that uses the 5-1-1 but I was just interested if pure peat would work if I added lime. Would the peat hold too much water? Should I add 25%-50% perlite like I normaly do?

Has anyone grown in pure peat moss?

Thanks.

Comments (53)

  • jodik_gw
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good luck with that "recipe for disaster".

    Peat, in any form, is not good when used as the major portion in any container medium mix... for reasons we've already discussed ad nauseum, on this forum and others.

    The science held up against it is valid, and my own personal experience shows the science to be solid. Peat is only useful as a small, small portion of any medium. It's simply too water retentive, and if used as the major portion, and allowed to completely dry out, it becomes a block of floating concrete in a pot.

    I'll pass. I like using ingredients such as fir bark, granite chips, coarse perlite, turface, pumice, crushed brick, and other useful items that allow for free drainage, plenty of aeration, plenty of allowable oxygen/gas exchange to the root zone, etc...

    I've dumped my peat bales out into the clay soil of my gardens... where it's hoped it will help turn the poor soil into a workable soil. But for containers, I pass.

  • meyermike_1micha
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am with Jodik on this and add this to the mix.

    Not only will the peat dry to a brick that repels water, but once you get to that point and you try and rewater the poor roots that have been deprived of water and dried out, once you finally get that soild mass of peat to absorb water, that is if you do so that it gets evenly moist, it will take days to dry out since most of the fine roots that would take up the water that are damged will just rot off in the meantime.

    I will pass too. I just dunped my last bale of peat into my shrub beds.

    Mike

  • mrlike2u
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Aside from the results that others can amazingly foresee and predict, being something they might not want for there plant(S) Growing in a higher percentage of a peat based soil can be done and with success.

    Certainly as long as there is a manner of proper drainage, proper watering and other growing factors fertilizer ect.... may need adjusting to a degree that several might not know or can suggest.

    As well there are several things that can replace perlite if you really cant find it at ANY STORE ?

    Some fair examples are a course grain or rocky type sand finer pieces of mulch (if need be you can simply mow them over just to shred them into something finner.) Leaf mold, broken twigs and such type debris that can even replace the so claimed death bed peat that does at times make those who don't use it cringe.

    Try not let some words words come accost wrongly as some may say peat based soils doesn't really cause some strange illness amongst ALL the readers just because you choose or have to grow in peat based soil but handle your growing manner as a challenge for you and them.

    Keep in mind that it isn't there happiness you need to worry about but your own, it's not the end of the world because you optioned for a different base of soil.

    If your plants are long term growing then I would agree that you should certainly keep an eye out for a more ideal type of soil, as suggested by the several readers who may already have relied upon this and many other threads.


  • jodik_gw
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's not a prediction... it's a reality.

    It's all from real life experience... where we can see it and feel it, and consequently, know it to be detrimental to containerized plantings.

    And not only is it reality, it's also supported by science and physics.

    How do you figure it's a prediction?

  • achampag
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    hey...im a beginner...this activity has a HUGE learning curve...i am playing w peat now, and will prolly play w the bark next year. it is not like im being graded lol! ppl shouldnt expect 0-65 in one second

  • TheMasterGardener1
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    When I look at the main ingredient of most potting soils like MG soil I see that it is almost all peat then manuar then some perlite ect...Most pro soilless mixs that are sold are peatmoss and coarse perlite. I have been growing in pure peat/perlite with good results. I have tryed the 5-1-1 with even better results. Somtimes The bark fines are not around though.

    I agree that the bark fines are far more effective and economical.

  • dickiefickle
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I believe that potting soils' main ingredient is soil,not peat. Potting MIX is bark based (FORREST PRODUCTS) with peat and perlite. dont remember seeing manure listed.

  • jodik_gw
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    True, it's a hobby for most gardeners... but let's quell one myth right now... there's no such thing as a "green thumb"; it's all applied knowledge.

    There's no secret formula, no luck involved, no magic bullet... growing plants to their full potential is all about making the effort, and learning a few basics about soil, water, and the plants we want to grow... learning what their needs are. It's very helpful to learn the basics of how the different factors in a container planting interact.

    Growing in the ground is vastly different than growing within the confined space of a container, so certain things will be different. Throughout the course of my life, my experiences and what I've learned tell me that organic methods work best for growing in the ground... while a more inorganic approach serves container growing much better.

    It's helpful to learn the basics of how plants grow, and the importance of providing a healthy environment for healthy roots. In nature, in the garden, Mother Nature takes care of things like aeration, drainage (to a certain extent), a balance of good and bad bacterias, fungi, and other populations which work to break down matter into available nutrition for plants, etc. But we don't have those same populations within containers, and it's not really feasible to try to maintain them. In a pot, the balances can quickly become skewed, which is detrimental to the plant.

    This is why a more inorganic approach works better, in my opinion, for growing in containers. It's important that we choose a durable medium which will drain well, allow for moisture to evaporate or be used in a timely manner, and one that will allow us to water thoroughly when the plant requires more moisture. Through proper watering, fresh oxygen enters the medium, and gases produced by the roots exit... which is very important for root health. Roots must be able to "breathe", so to speak, so it's important to use a medium that doesn't compact and lose its capacity to hold a certain amount of air pockets.

    The finer the particles in a medium, the closer together they are, negating the necessary air pockets. Finer materials also hold onto more moisture, which might sound like a good thing, but roots can't remain saturated for long periods of time... they literally drown and die.

    In order to maintain decent aeration, and allow for the all important exchange of oxygen and gases to and from the root zone, it's more helpful to utilize mediums that are built of larger particles.

    Most of us have heard of amending soils with things like perlite or other items of larger particulate, but basic physics tells us that if the larger particulate isn't the majority of a mix, adding that coarser material is a waste of time. It would be like adding some marbles to a container of sand... the sand just fills in around the marbles, leaving no air pockets, no aeration.

    Although it's fun to experiment, a gardener can bypass a lot of frustration, disappointment, and wasted funds by learning the basics beforehand. The link below contains a lot of very important information on soils, watering, and other basics... explained in such a way that anyone new to growing can understand. Al's writings put to rest a lot of myths and old wive's tales, and give a basic scientific view of growing in containers.

    After having learned quite a bit, and having decades of experience under my belt, I leave the finely cut peat off my shopping list. It serves no purpose in my own environment of indoor container growing. I mix my own container mediums, using a larger particulate and adjusting the ratios of ingredients for the plant involved, based on its needs.

    Here is a link that might be useful: The Basics...

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's no surprise that I agree with Jodi ;-)

    I am strongly biased against peat products, in general, so I'll place that on the table up front.

    While growing in pure peat *can* be done, so can growing in a container of pure glass shards.....
    as long as one is willing to make the concessions to carefully attend the planting. In the case of peat,
    you'll be fighting to eliminate water - and in the case of glass, you'll be fighting to maintain enough water.

    If your options are so radically limited that you *must* grow in peat, then it's a moot point.


    Josh

  • meyermike_1micha
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Can it be done?

    Sure, for a day or two maybe. Maybe you can stretch it to a day or week, maybe even an entire one season. Just don't forget not to let your mix ever dry out to the point it repels water, and certainly watch out you don't over water.
    Make sure the plants you grow in all peat like wet feet, and if not, remove them from the rain if it gets to cool and goes on for days. Do not use a water drip system either. Don't forget to flush your mix of acclimated salts which build up very quickly over time and watch for fungus gnats.
    Just some helpful hints.:-)

    It is no surprise that I too am biased towards peat. But I don't frown upon it. In fact, I use a small pinch myself in some of my mixes. In fact a fraction of it is suggested by Al himself in the 5.1.1. mix for very important reasons.
    In some of my pots, I even use just about all peat when I run out of perlite, but of curse on plants I don't care to loose over a season.

    As Jodik pointed out, there are many more reasons I have left peaty mixes out of my pots and they ARE taboo to the roots of my special plants. Some of them too expensive to loose. That is why my gardenias and citrus are thriving after 20 years of trying. In fact, the mixes with very little peat are recommended for most of my plants that hate wet feet my the local nursery growers themselves. My friend that runs a Bonsia shop amends his mixes too in which peat is a just another fraction for his plants. Not taboo, just a fraction of many other added amendments to encourage a fast draining and porous mix.

    If one wants to take the challenge of growing in mostly peat, then be mny guest. I certainly won't be affected by that. But I will be happy for your success, because I am genuine about it.
    That is why I am here quite often. I am done with those days and the dead and anything but vibrant plants in my case and I would love to see as many people as I can avoid the same disappointment.
    Am I safe to say we are all here to help each one other and see others succeed?
    Yes, I think so:-)

    Well put Jodik: "Peat, in any form, is not good when used as the MAJOR portion in any container medium mix"

    Hi Wes, Jodik, Josh, Masstergarndener and all the new faces:-)

    Mike

  • TheMasterGardener1
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yup I watered it and it is heavy mud now. I used half of it to condition some soil in the garden that I will plant my fall crop in. I am not going to bother even adding perlite and using my reg perlite/peat soiless mix. I will leave it around for the 1part in the 5-1-1. I will only grow in potting soil or the 5-1-1 for now. I have peppers that are growing in longfiber peat and perlite but they got hit w rain and the peat hold way too much water. They ar doing good but I am going to transplant them into soil then they will really take off. Just like experimenting and seeing what I can get away with. Thanks alot guys.

  • jodik_gw
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Just don't forget not to let your mix ever dry out to the point it repels water, and certainly watch out you don't over water."

    With peat, that's easier said than done. As a pot filled with peat dries out, the outer/top layer might appear to be bone dry, but the center area of the peat, where the roots of the plant are located, will still remain saturated for a while. If we water too soon, and don't allow the center of the root ball to dry out to a certain extent, we kill the roots by drowning them. And if we wait too long, the peat turns into a water-repellent ball of concrete-like material.

    More plants are killed by improper watering than by any one other thing. That's a fact. So, it would seem important to choose a medium that allows for proper watering, and gives a much wider margin for error.

  • mrlike2u
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In response to Jodi: A result that you wouldn't want for your plant is easy to predict as you said yourself, in short growing in peat based VS the soils you use now is the same as asking which results are you be happier with. My prediction is and should be rather obvious. None of us can predict what results the OP would get in a peat based soil and agree we who don't use a peat based soil can suggest that our results are better to a higher degree.

    As a second reading I also saw and again see most of the info to the OP are strong suggestions on HOW TO AMEND his pure peat soil into something more viable for the plant(s) he grows.
    My self as a gardener would agree that growing in a HIGH peat based soil is, more difficult, can work for the short growth, does require more attention than a free draining soil, and will admit not a choice I would make either but not impossible to the point where a plant will only live for 2 days to a week.

    Some ( even on this thread) have indeed grown in high peat based soil for a while ( longer than several weeks) knowing none the better until they found information on a better and more reliable growing manner including a better draining soil of which the original poster was able to receive reasonable responses on how to help plants grow more productively than in the 100 % peat he /she had planed

    On the other side of life; Hello Mike thought for the season one who gardens/grows a plant in one soil will limit there plants, one who grows in many soils can limit many plants.

  • jodik_gw
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I didn't say anything about predictions... you did.

    I mentioned reality, experience, fact, logic, science... take your pick.

    I don't have to make predictions because I've experienced firsthand both growing with peat, and growing without it... and I can tell you, without a doubt, that using a fine particulate will not help you grow healthy plants with healthy roots... especially if you're a novice.

    If I've ALREADY EXPERIENCED the uselessness of using a peat based soil, and I learn the basic science and physics of why it's not working, I am then able to offer better, more viable, vetted information to other growers who may wish to grow their plants to the fullest genetic potential, as well.

    The link I included above is chock full of good, valid information for anyone who wants the truth about what happens inside a pot, under the soil, with regards to roots. It will help you choose the medium that's right for you.

    What if I told you that I spent many years trying various peat or coir based products, only to lose several very precious bulbs to rot and fungal issues. I was doing everything I was supposed to do, using the industry standards, but those bulbs still developed rot issues and died as a result.

    Then, after much frustration, I went looking for a better way. I went looking for real information. I wanted to learn how soils worked in a container environment, and how the soil, water, and the plants all related to one another.

    Enter a bit of science, a bit of basic physics, and a little bit on how roots grow and what they require to be healthy. We have to grow plants from the roots up in order to experience such healthy, positive results.

    What we have to remember is that the gardening industry is no different than any other; it thrives on profit. That is it's goal. It doesn't care about gardeners, the customers. It only cares that we give repeat business. In order to get that repeat business, it must offer products that keep us coming back for more.

    It wouldn't be good for business if they offered us products that would help our plants live a long time, or that were created so we'd have an easy time caring for them. And the myths surrounding growing and gardening work to their advantage.

    What I'm saying is... the industry offers very little variety in soils, and very little evidential information based in science. Most bagged soils are peat based, made of a silty or fine particulate, created to retain too much moisture, and most are not healthy for roots, OR easy to work with for the novice.

    There are no real valid bits of information floating around to help gardeners, either. Just like the bit about having a "green thumb", most common knowledge about gardening either isn't valid or isn't complete.

    If we want to grow on a more serious level, we have to dig deeper, no pun intended, into the science of what plants require, and we have to adjust some things so they work in our individual environments.

    If we learn what happens to roots in different environments, using various products, we don't have make predictions on what will happen. We'll already know. And we can then use that knowledge to choose a better medium so we don't have to experiment... we'll already have the information necessary to grow healthy plants the first time.

  • mrlike2u
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    IS a bag of miracle grow peat based soil scientifically formulated ? if so then ( as they do say it is ) Science now provides two solutions plants do grow in peat and plants don't grow in peat.

    Informing the poster as said by some there plants wont grow and will fail in a peat based soil IS A PREDICTION until the poster tells us of there results being of any results such a prediction is as valid as are the cautions to not use a peat based soil.

    Granted the less chance of error is the easier manner of growing BUT ONLY for those who have the tools and the ingredients to do as such for all I know the only thing garden master can get is PEAT If this is true then.

    Why would I or anyone else tell him his plants are doomed unless he has the certain tools that they may not be able to obtain why cant I/we just inform them of how to use the peat based soil he already has in a more plant productive goal.

    Also (said by the other scientist who made the peat based soil) has now got to read THERE IS ALSO NO SCIENTIFIC PROFF THAT PLANTS WONT GROW in peat but this statement it's as equal to the plants that rotted and died in peat under some people with there growing habits doesn't mean yours will.

  • Spongey600
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    i have read almost all the posts here and i have see nowhere that says "your plants will die in peat" what i do see is that in using 100% you will fins that it reatains LOTS of mousture and needs to not dry out 100% or it will be VERY difficult to get wet again as it repells water when dry. so all on here are suggesting that he uses a "faster draining, less retentive" soil as quite a few people on here are just speaking from years of experience. i have only been growing plants for 2 years and last year i used miricle grow and because i like to spend time and look at my plants i tend to "over water" and i killed quiteafew plants last year. and this year i chose a few different options to see which workd best for my climate. and so far the much faster, less water rententive soil i made has better looking plants. but that is just me.

    Eric

  • Joe1980
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I was going to stay out of this boondoggle, but I'll just add a bit. This topic sure seems to get a lot of people arguing though...man. Anyway, the bottom line is this: Plants can indeed grow in peat moss, and at varying percentages, including 100%. However, that's not to say that it's the best thing for them. It all boils down to what you are looking to achieve....do you want your plants to simply survive, or to outright thrive? If you chose the latter, then stay away from the peat based soil. I am another one who is giving advice against peat based soil, because I know first hand, because I used to use MG bagged soil. Since switching to 5-1-1 and gritty mix, my plants are absolutely thriving. So, myself and others gave our opinions and advice about why peat isn't the best choice. Whether a person chooses to take that advice or not is up to them. So, if one chooses to grow in peat based soil, or all peat moss for that matter, then you cannot be baffled and upset when you don't get the results you want. I would also not start a thread asking why your plants are failing if you choose peat moss, because this whole boondoggle will start up again.

    Joe

  • mrlike2u
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't really see any argument what I see is plants can grow in peat and slight confessions of those who grew in peat and how there plants failed. Which could indicate they dont know how to grow in peat. Regardless plants can and do grow in peat based soils . Happily they find better ingredients to make soils that are as said ALLOWING FOR MORE ERROR provide a better draining and easier to manage and provide a healthier plant as said.

    Point being there is no ONE SOIL grows all solution. Fairly someone can suggest HYDROTRON would be the more ideal growing media and there would be pros and cons about this manner too yet plants do grow in hydrotron pellets just as well and under the same manners (or sciences to make it all sound fancy) as said by the costume mix that is being proposed.

    At the end of the day the person in question isn't asking what is an ideal soil to grow a plant but they ask do plants grow in peat THE answer is yes plants do grow in peat and with success. HOW EVER it is a challenge for the users of peat and to the readers who will make certain predictions of the questioning persons results having they experiences with growing in peat.

    DO I grow in peat based soils Yes What are my results The plants in a peat based soil are doing well.

    By chance if the person isn't asking on the thread but wants to know I also grow in several other medias as well such as standing water, circulating waters, hydro-tron containers, costume mixes, and other odd growing medias that go out of the usual mix that some suggest on this thread.

    Results some plants do better than others but none of them are as bad off as suggested by the comments that are read.
    In a different manner of speaking
    I don't deep sea dive either, but this fact doesn't mean other people cant. Maybe as a suggestion those who grow with good results in peat based soil shouldn't give advice on how to deep sea dive ?



  • meyermike_1micha
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey Wes:

    You loose me every time I start reading your post's. No punt intended, but everyone here is lost once they get past your first sentence. Are you deliberately writing in alien terms?:-)

    Hope your well

    Mike

  • meyermike_1micha
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is what I meant to say..lol

    I have no idea how the above posted when I never submitted it!
    ...................

    Hey Wes:
    You loose me every time I start reading your post's. No punt intended, but everyone here is lost once they get past your first sentence. Are you deliberately writing in alien language or trying to loose your audience??:-)
    I must admit that talking to you face to face is easier to understand.

    Hope your well

    Mike

  • jodik_gw
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The bottom line in any debate, people, is that when it comes down to actual science, physics, proven conclusions based on evidence - versus - somebody's opinions... I'm terribly sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but science and fact will take the upper hand every time. That's just reality.

    No one said you CAN'T do what you want to do... that's entirely in your hands. The choice is up to you. You can try to grow plants in anything you want... from pure liquid to pure solid. We've discussed it here to the point of regurgitation.

    But the facts, the science, the evidence all point to a more aerated, more free draining, larger particulate as the healthier, scientifically vetted choice for growing root systems, and therefore the plants above the medium, to a better genetic potential within the confines of containers, with a much wider margin for error. That's fact. There's no getting around it.

    If your choice is pure peat, that's your choice. It would never be my choice due to what I've learned about the science and physics of growing, but if that's what smokes your shorts, more power to ya.

    As far as I'm concerned... and as far as the science is concerned... it's a pure waste of time, effort, and funds to use a fine particulate in a container environment. The margin for error is much slimmer, and most novices will end up with problems in the long run.

    No, Miracle Gro soils aren't "scientifically formulated". They're not much more than a waste product from another industry... similar to pet feeds, which are a waste product from the human food industry. When profit is the driving force, any industry will always try to find a use for a waste product. It brings two incomes, and less waste to dispose of, which usually costs money.

    Industry always places profit before people. That's the way of the world. They take advantage of our weaknesses, our gullibility, our ignorance, and our child-like excitement for new products with shiny packaging and bright colors. The general public has a short attention span, an even shorter memory, and we're easily distracted. It's not very hard to sell us things we think we need.

    It's really simple... due to how roots grow and what they need when grown in a confined environment, a larger particulate will net better, easier, healthier results with a wider margin for error. That bit of evidence leaves fine cut peat out of the picture.

    There's no argument... facts are facts. And opinions are many. Let's not confuse the novice population with opinions. What they need are facts.

  • dickiefickle
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Drill extra holes in the bottom of your bucket.(do not use screen over the holes,)Make a pile of soil a little larger around then your pot bottom and about 2-3 inches tall,now put your full bucket on the spot you made ,With the soils in the bucket and below the bucket touching your excess water will continue to move thru the bucket and into the ground

  • mrlike2u
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey Mike no pun here either but lost is me too. I'm still Wondering if the perlite that got left behind would of been the better soil at 100 % over peat 100%. Unfortunate is that Miracle grow does distribute PERLITE too.
    Hi Jodi you seem to have a good bead on keeping in tract what where you saying about Miracle products again ? Opps Not to annoy anyone or be misunderstood but was the words MIRACLE GROW the reason why they didn't get perlite when they had the chance ?

    Pros and cons are indeed realistic and in agreement to some I wouldn't want to grow nor would I choose to grow ANY plant in 100 % peat either unless it was amended heavily Yes drainage is drainage as long as there is a hole or better yet some holes on the BOTTOM of the container(s)an extra step to make bigger holes isn't going to make to much of a difference but a step you could take as a caution. HOPEFULLY the person asking the questions will take or already took these steps

  • greentiger87
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you're gonna try to wick into the earth itself, you might as well just bury a small portion of the container in the ground, no?

  • mrlike2u
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lastly You don't have to believe Charles Darwin but you will not be able to prove him wrong

  • Joe1980
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Instead of trying to figure out ways to make peat moss work, why not just use something better, such as the 5-1-1, or whatever else people have time tested? No sense in trying to fix the effect without fixing the cause.

    Joe

  • Cat
    8 years ago

    I use peat moss in a small amount and a small amount of perlite because we grow in a very rocky medium that compacts down really hard. It's great soil if you can find it between the rocks. So I added peat moss this year instead of coconut fiber as an experiment, and a tiny bit of perlite just to lighten up the soil. I also added compost made entirely out of wood chips that has composted down so it's very rich mixture. But peat moss if it's not moist turns to concrete. I wouldn't add a lot, just enough so you feel at peace about it

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    8 years ago

    Just read that earlier today.

    Al

  • Olive
    8 years ago

    Unfortunately, it looks like we're out of luck, Dale. From their website:

    "PittMoss® is available to commercial greenhouses and nurseries from Michigan to Maine to North Carolina. Our goal is to be in your area soon."


    Any of our eastern friends willing to ship some PittMoss westward, for science? :-p


    You've revived an oldie here, and it's... Hmm...

    "The particle size is so small with peat that the perched water would be immense. I don't think adding perlite would help much either, because it would be like adding marbles to a bowl of oatmeal."

    " It would be like adding some marbles to a container of sand... "

    Except they're nothing alike! Material structure matters, and the absorption, retention, and evaporation rates of peat moss and oatmeal and perlite and marbles and sand are vastly different.


    "Peat, in any form, is not good when used as the major portion in any container medium mix..."

    That's a broad statement, considering commercial mixes are predominantly peat & perlite. The article Dale posted above quotes many people involved in the soil & media industry. Their livelihood depends on their customers getting good results, they're educated, and I find it hard to believe they're part of some conspiracy to kill plants' roots. Exercising a little google-fu on those quoted:


    -Lambert Peat (obviously predominantly peat): they sell 100% peat at a 0-20mm (~3/4") particle size. Not quite oatmeal.


    -Theriault & Hachey Peat Moss's TH-1 All-Purpose Professional Growing Mix: extra coarse grade sphagnum peat moss (81.25%), coarse perlite (13.75%), coarse vermiculite (5%), etc.


    -Premier Tech Horticulture: They do offer a bark-based mix these days (note to self- find some of that BRK20), but their main commercial product is HP MYCORRHIZAE: sphagnum peat moss (65-75%), Perlite, etc.


    -Sungro's Fafard: "Regionally formulated and contains a blend of Canadian Sphagnum peat moss or peat and one or more of the following: processed softwood bark, forest products, compost, perlite, vermiculite or peanut hulls, dolomitic limestone, and wetting agent" Not formulated in my region. :-(


    -Grower's Gold: Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss, Coir, Perlite, Endomycorrhizae.


    -Berger: Their BM-1 General Purpose Mix is "Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss, Coir, Perlite, Endomycorrhizae". They also advertise BM-7, "Produced with pine bark, the BM7 series is formulated for perennials, shrubs and trees. It can also be used for applications needing heavier weight." Interesting! It contains "Coarse peat moss, pine bark, horticultural perlite, dolomitic limestone, calcitic limestone, non-ionic wetting agent + Nutriform TM Note: Standard formulations: 25% or 35% pine bark." So, still predominantly peat. (I'd like to get ahold of some of this, if anyone knows where to find it on the west coast?)


    And not related to the article, but I was excited once upon a time to read about EB Stone's Master's Pride Professional Potting Soil: A Natural and Organic Blend of Fir Bark, Aged Redwood, Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss, Volcanic Pumice, Perlite, Chicken Manure, Earthworm Castings, Washed Sand, Kelp Meal, Bat Guano, Feather Meal and Gypsum. Primary ingredients were bark! But once I got some, I discovered it was all fine particles. Fine particles of peat can be light and fluffly, but this stuff was heavy and dense. I wasn't favorably impressed.


    So, yeah. I think it's just fine to grow in predominantly peat mixes, as many of us have been doing for some time. I see where there may be a learning curve for complete novices, but it's really not that difficult, and water retention can be a boon in some situations.


    YMMV, of course...

  • dale92539 Riverside Co SoCal
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Most of my Propagation mixes use Peatmoss, Pumice,Perlite, and Vermiculite for Smaller Containers up to 6" pots. The larger containers mixes are Shredded Barks (Redwood,Pine), Peat, Pumice,Grit or Sand for Economics and Ballast reasons. Most mixes are 3:2, 1:1 , 1:2 (Peat:Perlite or Pumice) ratios. Personally, I am not against Peat it has good water release characteristics. I just screen the mixes for greater than 1mm to 1.5mm size particles. Wicking Mats are used to enhance drainage, and eliminate any PWT in shallow containers.

    Addition: Vermiculite is used for more moisture, mainly starting Vegetables seedlings. Mainly 2:1:1 or 1:1:1 ratios of Peat:Perlite:Vemiculite.

    It seems the complaints about peatmoss, or fine textured mixes in general, are for the growing of succulents, and long term plantings of trees and shrubs.

  • ubro
    8 years ago

    Olive, yep I am sure some can and do grow well in peat based media, but I am going to be the "devil's advocate " here:)

    "Their livelihood depends on their customers getting good results, they're educated, and I find it hard to believe they're part of some conspiracy to kill plants' roots."

    I do not believe in a conspiracy or that they wish ill will on gardeners, but I am more inclined to believe their livelihood depends on people purchasing their product weather it is good or not.

    And, although I can't be certain, I would bet "dollars to doughnuts" that any mix that is not mostly peat is more costly to the manufacturer. It helps to remember that there is a "price point" that has to be met or the majority of consumers will not buy. They are marketing to the masses after all, any specialty grower soon searches out his own mixes.

    We buy what is marketed to us, and we believe in these products because, for many of us, that is all that is offered. For the novice grower, when their plants fail, their first thought is that they are at fault and made a major error (their stories abound on Garden Web) not that the product was faulty.

    Do people actually return a bag of soil because it did not preform well? :) Maybe they should start.

  • jane__ny
    8 years ago

    People buy plants which look healthy. If the growers are growing in a peat based mix, those plants have done well in those mixes.

    Would anyone buy a dying plant? No.

    With proper light, watering and temperatures, plants grow well in peat mixes. That is obvious as that is usually how they are sold.

    I grow orchids. Many come packed in peat. They are beautiful, perfectly grown. What is the explanation? They are grown under ideal conditions.

    Can a home grower provide perfect conditions? Probably not.

    We can all try to optimize growing conditions, but usually have to repot into a mix which works under their growing conditions.

    Jane

  • ubro
    8 years ago

    LOL> Some people buy dying plants all the time, I watch them buy at cut rate prices at Walmart every spring. And believe me these plants are dead.

    My point was that we buy what is marketed to us and we buy peat based mixes because that is the cheapest to make so is readily available and not because it is the best product.

    I grow plants for myself and for sale, I switched to a courser mix similar to the 5:1:1 this spring and the results are amazing. What is more amazing is I did not expect such good results in the seedling stage.

    For my money, the learning curve for the novice gardener is much easier to navigate if they use a 5:1:1 type mix than trying to grow in a peat based one.

  • dale92539 Riverside Co SoCal
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    The actual Measurements of a 7-1-1.5 mix and a 5-3-2 mix close to 5-1-1 mix compared to Various Mixes.

    Bark Mix TP 84% WHC 63% AHC 21%

    Peat:Perlite 1:1 TP 93% WHC 54% AHC 39%

    100% Peatmoss TP 94% WHC 84% AHC 10%

    The difference of Bark Mix to 100% Peatmoss is about 21% WHC less and 11% AHC increase.

    In the Northwest, Bark may be used more often due to availability, the logging industries in the area.

    Chart Sources:

    http://oregonstate.edu/dept/nursery-weeds/presentations/Workshop1_06.pdf

    http://www.greenhouse.cornell.edu/crops/factsheets/nursery_container_media.pdf

    Some methods of handling Peatmoss: Soak in warm water, absorbs water better. Squeeze out excessive water out and fluff, before mixing your mix or repotting. One should not let a medium dry to the point, that the Peat is very dry. Bark will shed water also if very dry. Calcined Clay or DE in mix helps gradually rewet Bark and Peat over time, after irrigation.

    Edit: The best way to rehydrate a plant in a dry peat mix, is to bottom water in a shady area. Soak in basin, with about 1/4 to 1/2" water in the bottom. Let in gradually draw water by Capillary action. Add water if needed to maintain about 1/4" to 1/2". When plant has recovered and medium is moist,loosen the mix a little a chopstick or other to fluff mix.

    Edit2: Another issue is over-compaction of medium when repotting or filling containers. Containers should be tapped on the sides, or lifted an dropped a few inches on a hard surface to settle a new mix. Watering will settle the mix also. Never press a mix in container, Spongy mixes are subject to over compaction, this destroys aeration and increases water holding in the mix. The amount of volume lost as medium is compressed is the degree of Porosity loss, Most Nurseries lightly overfill seed trays, level off medium with a straight edge, then lightly drop the tray a few times on the table top. Over compaction can really affect seedling quality, this was noticed in the forestry nurseries.

  • Olive
    8 years ago

    Dale, I understand the antipathy towards peat when it comes to succulents, trees, long-term plantings... And 100% peat wouldn't be my first choice of medium. But the whole "Peat, in any form, is not good..." attitude is so counterproductive, especially when it leads to "I would also not start a thread asking why your plants are failing if you choose peat moss..." All too often people here are discouraged from asking for help or sharing their own experiences for the unforgivable sin of growing in *gasp* peat-based mixes!


    Ubro, I don't know that peat is all that much cheaper than tree byproducts, depending on the region. And the businesses I listed sell mainly to commercial nurseries, so they’re not marketing to ‘the masses,’ they’re targeting professional growers. When one component stands out as being the most common, I have a hard time believing it's particularly detrimental to plants. Plenty of people from novice to professional grow just fine in peat-based mixes. Some of us may enjoy experimenting with substrates, but custom soil mixes aren't necessary for success.


    Some ideas for growing in peat-heavy soils:

    Amend with something light and fluffy if you can (not sure what OP meant by "no perlite worth the money" locally, maybe too fine? Coarser would be better).

    Use appropriate sized pots: pots will retain less water if the thirsty roots are filling the space.

    Use porous pots: clay pots, Air Cones, Air Pots, fabric planters (esp. sitting on the ground).

    Use low, wide pots: more soil surface area to promote evaporation.

    Use an oscillating fan to promote air circulation/evaporation.

    Don't compact the soil, particularly by watering too forcefully.

    Look into surfactants or rewetting agents if you're liable to let things go too long between waterings (hydrophobia can be a problem with bark, too), or be prepared to occasionally soak your containers.

    Do I need to mention don't overwater? Because, obviously, don't. :p

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    The reality is, a huge % of the issues growers seek remediation for upon arriving at forums related to container gardening are directly related to media with excessive water retention - almost all are growing in off the shelf soils based on fine particulates (peat, coir, compost, composted forest products, sand, topsoil, ....... Just something to think about.

    BTW - A) all the ideas you mentioned have been discussed at length, many times over; B) low/wide pots should be AVOIDED when using water retentive media because they are counter-productive; it's much better to use a larger and or deeper pot and a well-aerated medium (for growth and vitality) than to use a shallow pot (regardless of width) and depend on root congestion to (hopefully maybe partially) save the plant from the limitations imposed by soggy soils. Why choose the lesser of two evils when both evils and others in addition can be eliminated entirely? C) No one EVER said, that I can recall, that "peat in any form is not good" - a bit of tilting at windmills there, me thinks, and there's more of the same in the suggestion that D) anyone has EVER been discouraged from asking for help.

    Al

  • ubro
    8 years ago

    Interesting how a simple question can inspire a lively discussion. :)

    Olive, As a professional grower myself, I do not have the mindset that "peat in any form" is not good, it is part of the 5:1:1 mix, of which I think highly.

    I was stating what I have found to be true in our neck of the woods. Gardeners buy what the stores offer and assume that it is the "best".

  • Olive
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Respectfully, Al,

    A) all the ideas you mentioned have been discussed at length, many times over

    I could say the same of many of your posts. I wouldn't though, because that would be rude. ;)

    B)... Why choose the lesser of two evils when both evils and others in addition can be eliminated entirely?

    Why? Time. Money. Labor. More room for error in under-watering. There are plenty of legitimate reasons why people might prefer to grow in something easy, cheap, light, or water-retentive. Or, like OP, that might be all they have.

    C) No one EVER said, that I can recall, that "peat in any form is not good"

    Jodi says in the fifth post "Peat, in any form, is not good when used as the major portion in any container medium mix...", as well as "Peat is only useful as a small, small portion of any medium," and meyermike follows up with "Well put Jodik: 'Peat, in any form, is not good when used as the MAJOR portion in any container medium mix'" Those strike me as broad and inaccurate statements. I've gotten good results with the predominantly-peat ProMix (as well as other mediums), and as peat's one the most common ingredients in commercial mixes, I don't think my experience is all that exceptional.

    D) anyone has EVER been discouraged from asking for help.

    Except that time Ubro* said "I would also not start a thread asking why your plants are failing if you choose peat moss, because this whole boondoggle will start up again." I've definitely noticed a trend where when someone mentions growing in traditional mixes here (whether asking for help or describing success), they receive lengthy lectures on how inferior their growing methods are, rather than useful advice.

    I have respect for the growers here, and I learned a lot from you when I started growing some years ago (I remember the first time the "Container Soil" thread rolled over). But comparing growing in peat to pudding or glass shards ignores the actual science and physics behind why peat can be a good choice in a lot of situations. And at the end of the day, theorizing about particle structure, CEC, & hydraulic conductivity can't take the place of actual experimentation, and my experiments indicate the anti-peat hysteria on these boards is overblown.

    Ubro, I've seen no evidence that you're an authority on the assumptions of other gardeners at large. Let us perhaps speak to our own knowledge and experiences, and not put words in the mouths of absent (and conveniently ignorant) "gardeners". We're all capable of speaking to why we choose our own mixes, are we not?


    * Quote should have been attributed to Joe1980

  • ubro
    8 years ago

    Olive, Should I ask you to apologize for your mistake in attributing the following quote to me and thereby doing exactly what you accuse me of doing putting words in the mouths of others?

    Ubro said "I would also not start a thread asking why your plants are failing if you choose peat moss, because this whole boondoggle will start up again."

    You are obviously skimming these posts it was Joe1980 who said that back in 2011, if you would care to confirm your info before you post. So I guess everything you said after that could be directed at Joe and not me? Joe ? are you still following 5 years later????????

    If you would actually read my posts you would have noticed I said I did not have the mindset "that peat in any form is not good" so whats up that you think I am in opposition to your views?

    I also did not say gardeners were "conveniently ignorant" (your words and again something you inaccurately assumed I meant from my last post ) now who is putting words in other mouths?

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    8 years ago

    My point was, the ideas you presented aren't ideas that haven't been regularly examined in the light of how they fit with various approaches to gardening in containers.

    I agree that there are many reasons growers might choose to grow in something fast/cheap/easy, but not very many of those reasons would be related to what the plant would prefer. Surprisingly though, you can make the 5:1:1 mix for about half of what it costs to buy an off the shelf medium in a bag. FWIW, I realize that a good % of growers put 'convenience' at the top of the list of reasons why they might choose a particular medium, and I recognize that as a perfectly valid reason for making the choice. It's not reason enough for me, but I wouldn't presume to know best how to order a stranger's priorities. Obviously, I think the reasons for using a very well-aerated medium, even if it takes effort to make far outweigh reasons for using something like Miracle-Gro media because the opportunity for plants to realize their potential are MUCH better.

    When you quoted Jodi, you left out the subsequent qualification of her own statement, which cast an entirely different light on what might seem overly broad out of context, but with context - seems reasonable. I also tend to agree, and my own practical experience supports the observation, that substrates with a dominant fraction of peat are much more difficult for the hobby grower to consistently bring along healthy material in. Reinforcing that thought are the thousands of growers who arrive on forum shores marooned by their soil choice, which is usually a bagged mix based on peat and/or other fine particulates.

    Using pudding in comparison to water-retentive media and asking how much perlite it would take to make pudding drain well is provides a vivid image for the mind's eye, and the comparison is valid enough that I see it used regularly to stress a point ....... and the accompanying qualification of the subsequent explanation is always focused on science & the laws of physics. How thoroughly we qualify the things we say is what people use to determine our credibility.


    There is no anti-peat hysteria. We work hard to define our experience with media that use peat and other fine particulates as the primary fraction of what we're using. We also express our experiences using media with low volumes of peat and high volumes of other coarse material. Generally, media with lots of coarse material and small volumes of peat shine in comparison to media with lots of peat and little or no coarse ingredients.

    Finally, I would just say that when it comes to theorizing about soil structure and related topics, in
    theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in
    practice there is. The comments I offer are indeed born of practice.


    Thanks for providing reason to make me exercise the noodle.


    Al




  • dale92539 Riverside Co SoCal
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Peatmoss particle size depends on how it is milled. Particle Sizes range from 0.8mm to greater than 2.38mm. Its inaccurate to refer to Peat as fine particulate, except the off the shelf floor sweepings they sell as Peatmoss.

    http://thpeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Peat-Moss-composition.pdf

    If I made a 511 mix and only used what went thru a window screen. It would be a fine particulate mix also. Even MG is a Bark,Peat, and Perlite Mix, just in different ratios.

    From Container Tree Nursery Manual

    Summary and Conclusions Section:

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    8 years ago

    The peat the overwhelming % of hobby growers use is not even milled or screened. It's dredged from the bogs, wind-rowed to drain, and compacted into bales. It contains sticks, twigs, and other materials that found their way into the bog. Most importantly, it's always a very high % of very fine particles.

    There is simply no denying that what primarily keeps those of us offering guidance on the forums in business are the problems associated with the extremely high water retention in the soils those seeking advice are using, and the poor root health that accompanies that use. I can't think of a single case where someone has taken the time to thank someone else for turning them on to Miracle-Gro soils or others similar, but there have been thousands of growers who have born witness to the results enjoyed when they decided to head in the opposite direction, putting their faith in media that hold little or no perched water.


    Al

  • ewwmayo
    8 years ago

    Of maybe 20 different greenhouses / garden centers / nurseries I've visited in the past year, maybe 3 had quality peat for sale and for not very cheap either. It's usually located by specialty items where typical customers would never look (not by the commercial soil mixes).

    I've never purchased and used the stuff myself, but it sure 'looks' nice. Absolutely agreed that it looks nothing like what you find in ProMix or Miracle-Gro soils.

    Side note: It is possible to find lower quality bags of Canadian peat for very cheap at Garden Centers here, but it is a much more compressed/dried/shredded form.

  • Olive
    8 years ago

    Ubro, I certainly do apologize for misattributing Joe's comment to you! The error was unintentional. I quoted it simply to make the point that people who grow in peat are unfortunately discouraged from seeking help here.


    Al, it's unfair to imply I'm quoting Jodi out of context. I quoted her comment in its entirety the first time I brought it up, and it should be clear by now that I do object to the substance of the statement: that mixes containing a "major" quantity of peat are "not good". Which includes most commercial and professional offerings. That's simply not true, and recreational gardeners shouldn't feel obligated to invest the time and effort into sourcing and sifting bark due to the theoretical 'not good'ness of peat.


    The comparative price of bark doesn't surprise me- Greenall MicroBark is $4.32/ft3 here (before sifting losses). ProMix is $6.09/ft3. Perlite, $8.25/ft3. The bark is also twenty minutes away, and requires a considerable amount of time and effort to prepare. Since the 5-1-1 only gives me better results in limited situations, it would be a false economy to use it as my primary medium right now.


    "Generally, media with lots of coarse material and small volumes of peat shine in comparison to media with lots of peat and little or no coarse ingredients."


    So sez you. A lot of people say and do otherwise, with great success. It's not that you're not right, it's just that other people understand about particle size, and perched water tables, and 'science.' They just don't agree with you anyway, and they're not wrong.


    Thanks, Dale, I'm now on a mission to find some >2.38mm peat now. I wonder if that'll be easier to find than bark of a similar size. :p


    Al, a cursory look led me to this thread from 2007. I also discovered ProMix from the Pepper forums, and I hope I do run across the man who turned me on to it; I'd like to thank him. It's easy, it's not too expensive, and it works well for a lot of situations.

  • dale92539 Riverside Co SoCal
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Home Depot carries Sunshine Brand Peatmoss 3cuft

    http://www.homedepot.com/p/SunShine-3-cu-ft-Peat-Moss-3001-CFC003P/205883917

    Also Vigoro Perlite

    http://www.homedepot.com/p/Vigoro-2-cu-ft-Perlite-Soil-Amendment-100521091/205655210?MERCH=REC--PIPHorizontal1_rr--205883917--205655210--N

    Also any in the So Ca Area, Orange County Farm Supply has good prices on Bulk items Bark, Redwood Shavings, Pumice etc. http://www.ocfarmsupply.com/

    Olive, Pro Mix HP is 65-75% Sphagnum Peatmoss and 25-35% Perlite ( about 2:1 ratio) with Calcitic and Dolomtic Limestone added usually at 1 lb limestone per cuyd(27cuft)( 1/8 tsp per Liter or Quart) per each 10% of Peatmoss or Bark in the mix. This will raise mix pH about 1 point. If you have high Alkalinity water you can reduce or omit Limestone from the mix. Example: if your mix has 50% Peat/Bark or combination this would be 5lb Dolomite per cuyd or about 1/2tsp per quart or liter of mix.

    Sunshine "Sun Gro" Peat Harvesting. Makers of Professional Mixes.

    http://www.sungro.com/about-us/peat-moss-industry

    Sidenote: Irrigation and Irrigation Scheduling is one the greatest challenges for growers. Tactical testing of medium is not very accurate in most cases, and requires experience. A medium may feel moist to touch, but the plant is under water stress(greater than 10KPa). This is due to the Water Release Properties of your mix ingredients. Also some Plants don't show water stress. Since Full Genetic Potential is a popular phase on the forum. Any reduction in Photosynthesis due to water stress, (or less than optimum moisture), will reduce this potential.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Olive - I can't be responsible for opinions others hold based on their personal experience, but since I and so
    many others have found the mixes you are talking about much more
    difficult to grow in because of excess water retention, I tend to agree with that finding ....... and I don't
    think I have the 'science' re water retention wrong and/or lack an
    understanding of how water behaves in container media. It's not unusual
    for me to get 2-3 off-forum messages weekly that are purposely written
    to offer a thank you for putting together information that helped turn
    someone's growing experience around ..... and there are at least that
    many posted publicly - just that I see. I'm sure there are many conversations
    on other forums that offer testimony to the fact that a change in how
    someone looks at container media can make a large difference in their success rate and o/a growing experience. I almost
    never see anyone extolling the virtues of MG soils and kin. What it
    boils down to is others having that 'aha!' moment when they understand
    how important air is in the rhizosphere and relate soil composition to
    water retention.

    You have to keep in mind that I never twist
    anyone's arm to get them to adopt a soil or practice they don't think
    offers more potential - even if they're wrong on salient points, it's
    still up to them to decide. I'm not interested in making the effort to
    reverse a course upon which someone is steadfast. IOW - it doesn't matter to me what you
    or anyone else decides to do; but I am interested in seeing they get
    information and hopefully the understanding to decide for themselves the
    difference between good and not so good media.

    You mentioned that
    people who don't agree with me are not wrong. I say it depends on what
    we disagree on. If you suggested that tomorrow apples would begin to
    fall upward, I would suggest that particular theory probably doesn't
    deserve time in the classroom equal to that devoted to Newton's
    findings. Some things aren't, some things are carved in stone. Knowing
    the difference and how we support/qualify what we say are what helps others decide how much credibility they assign our offerings.

    Al

  • Tamarah Black
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Hey Olive and Dale - I stumbled across this thread tonight while working late ;)

    I'm the Pittmoss Independent Sales Director for the Southeast US and I'd be more than happy to ship you guys (and anyone else on this thread) any of our Pitmoss Products and provide a 10% discount to each of you and free shipping to give you the chance to try us out yourselves. You can email me directly at tamarah (dot) pitmoss (at) gmail (dot) com

    (trying to avoid being spammed to death by bots by typing it out that way!)

    Or you can call me directly at (888) 842-3553 ext 6 and I'll take care of you. We have Pittmoss Prime which is certified organic potting soil amendment in 10 qt, 1 cf and 2 cf starting at 11,99 per bag.

    Pittmoss Performance Ready To Grow Mix in the same sizes starting at 12,99 and Pittmoss Plentiful which is a perfect potting soil replacement as it contains both our soil amendment and locally sourced compost in the same sizes above starting at 14.99.

    Hope this helps y'all out. We've just begun offering to retail customers in limited markets so it may not have arrived in your area stores yet.

    Tam

  • Heugh Jassman
    4 years ago

    Honestly, if youre using aeration along with amendments, then your peatmoss will out perform anything else you have. Left by itself, no it wont do all you want, but with very little attention, it will grow you a jungle, dry roots and what everyone keeps mentioning how it becomes hard is onky an issue if youre not a gardener, watering your stuff frquently. Since we are all mostly gardners here, there is no real rereason to not use it as for any of that to happen, you would need quite a bit of negligence.


    Its also a great idea if you have chicken. They will dig in it and poop and youll never have to worry about nutrients again other than adding dolomite to keep the ph if needed. Peat moss is one of the easiest substrates you can use. Especially when amendments are so cheap to provide with it. As long as you keep up with your garden, then peat moss will do amazing. It even keeps my greenhouse warm because its in a state of constant compost as well.