greensingh , sorry to hear about your tomato problems. This has been my first season here in S Fla growing anything. I purchased a copy of Ed Smith's SWC book and used his mix of 45% peat, 45% cow compost, and 10% perlite. It really worked good even with a 6-6-6 chemical fert. that my wife had here. After reading this site, I tried Al's mix and apparently did something wrong because the plants were only 1/2 as large and the production not nearly as good in size or numbers. I think maybe your are right that you have to mix the "soil" with either CRF or strips sometime earlier. I tried feeding some of my 5 gal buckets with the water soluble MG 24-8-16 and it maybe helped a little, but not significantly. Will continue to use both mixes next fall when our veggie season begins again. I am still getting brandywines, beefmasters, big beef, sweet chelsea, sweet 100s, romas, and some nice round 8 oz size tomato that is not ID'd since I put my code to the seed starting box in a safe place.

The pic is my original with the 6-6-6 fert and it is still growing fruit, but nothing is setting much new fruit since our humidity is now wet,wet.

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This rambling may not help, but at least it is my novice experience.
The

flyingfish, those plants are looking very good. The 5 gal buckets can get pretty thirsty in the heat of the summer but I bet you already know that.
I have had good luck growing tomatoes in ground and containers before. And I have had great luck with using the 5:1:1 mix for indoor plants. So I thought I could translate this to swc outdoors as well. But I did not get of the best of starts. I already have a couple of lessons for next year. I hope I can salvage some of the plants for this year.

green,

It can be done in containers!!! You just need to get the right eco-system. I use Miracle-Gro Potting Mix (without Moisture Control), and it has worked well for me.

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So give it a try with Miracle-Gro next season, and experiment on the side with home-made mixes. To be sure, they can work well, but it seems to take a lot of trial and error in the process.

Raybo

Our tomatoes got a really slow start this year because we had unusually cool (for GA) temps. well into the month of May. I was beginning to think they were not going to grow at all. As soon as the night time temps started staying in the 60's, the tomatoes started growing quickly. We use Al's mix recipe for all of our SWC's, and did last year as well. Tomatoes, in my experience, love growing in Al's Mix.

I am using a 5:2:1 ratio of pine fines, peat and perlite. I added 2 cup of Tomato Tone as the fertilizer strip. I did not add any CRF. My biggest mistake was adding 1 cup dolomitic lime / cu ft of the mix. This would make the mix highly alkaline, which would cause nutrient uptake problem and may explain the growth issues I am seeing.

The lime probably doesn't explain the slow growth. The mix is fine, it's very similar to what I have used in the past. The fertilizer is OK, lots of folks have used it, but 2 cups in 28 gallons may not be doing enough. The EarthBox instructions would recommend 3 cups in 2 cubic feet (15 gallons). I stay away from the granular ferts and prefer water solubles in the reservoir, but granules in the mix are fine too, you just need to use enough. Many folks who use the granules in the mix end up adding Miracle Grow or similar via top watering or into the reservoir at some point.

Since your weather seems fine the lack of growth *may* be fertilizer related, but there really isn't any way for me to know for sure. Why not take 1 container and add Miracle Grow 24-8-16 so that the entire reservoir is 1/4th strength and give things a week to see if the plant/s in that SWC do better than the ones without the MG in the reservoir? After researching and reading some of JAG's posts, it seems like the mix will eventually take the pH of the tap water, which measured close to neutral.

Well, not necessarily. Tap water that is near neutral *probably* has been modified by the water authority in your area to be that way. This means that it likely is low in alkalinity (different than pH-alkaline). It takes a high alkalinity in the tap water to shift the pH of the media. Low alkalinity and it won't.

Anyway, what kind of bark are you using? Is it actual pine bark or is it perhaps something else? I am asking because you may have a nutrient issue going on where the bark or sapwood (depending on what product you used) is stealing away the N, limiting plant growth. This can be somewhat compensated for if you suspect it's what is going on, but you will need to up the N by 25-75% more than normal and it's kind of a guessing game.

To summarize:

1. I wouldn't worry about pH issue right now
2. I would take a close look at the wood in the mix and make sure it's actually 100% pine bark and not sapwood or hardwood bark.
3. I would start fertilizing via the reservoir with Miracle Grow, Foliage Pro or another 100% soluble product. I would make the entire mix at least 1/4th strength and might go 1/2 or higher in another for comparison purposes.

raybo, your pictures are always an inspiration. I used your plans for building my containers and next year plan on installing the float valve for automatic watering :). I have had good experience using promix/compost mix last year and I do have one container in that mix which is doing well. It has a sungold and a bloody butcher in it, with a couple of clusters with fruit on each and good growth and flowers. The right thing would have been to do one container with the new mix and the others with promix. But I guess I just wanted to make things more interesting.
Opal52, can you please share some more details i.e. ratios of your mix, did you use the fertilizer strip, did you mix in some crf etc. Did you use any soluble fert initially? And how long if you remmeber before the plants started showing growth?
A couple of plants are starting to have some new growth whereas the others are not looking very healthy and just seem to be sitting there. We did have/are having a lot of rainy days but the temperatures have been good and I have been waiting for the plants to come out of this stupor.

JAG, I was hoping you would see this post. I got pine fines from two sources, Virginia pine soil conditioner and Twin Oaks pine soil conditioner. The virginia product does have some hardwood fines in it - the description from the website :-

Made from composted Pine and Hardwood fines. Excellent for improving clay soil or for use as a topdressing. Available in 40-lb. bags or in bulk

If it is composted would it still cause N issues?

The 28 gallon swc probably contains around 18-20 gallons of mix so that should equal around 3 cups of lime.
I still would have to wrap my head around the difference between alkaline and alkalinity.

I did water the plants this week with Peters 24-8-16 fertilizer from overhead. I will add 1/2 - 1/4 strength in the reservoir as well. I emptied the reservoirs of all my SWC yesterday, thinking overwatering could be an issue.

JAG, is there any advantage of using a fast draining mix like 5:1:1 over say a peat based mix in a SWC? Also how does the fertilizer from the strip become available to the plants over a period of time? There are a lot of mix recipes for SWCs but I could not find any detailed information more than the basics. I guess this forum has been spoiled by your and Al's efforts in explaining things and presenting them in easily digestible form, but I am not complaining :)
Thanks for your help on this.

Made from composted Pine and Hardwood fines. Excellent for improving clay soil or for use as a topdressing. Available in 40-lb. bags or in bulk

If it is composted would it still cause N issues?

Potentially, yes. It depends on how composted it really is. Wood generally ties up N as it decomposes. This isn't an issue with various wood chip mulches that sit on top of the soil, but when mixed into the soil they can become a huge issue. If they were fully composted it would be fine, but I suspect they weren't really compost, just aged. It's why Al only mentions pine bark as being suitable and is careful not to just say 'bark' because much of it is unsuitable. I still would have to wrap my head around the difference between alkaline and alkalinity.

Yeah, I know, it's confusing, isn't it? I am not a chemist, I just play one (poorly) on the intertubes so bear with me and my simplistic explanation. We use the terms acidic and alkaline to refer to the pH of a solution. Above 7 and it's alkaline(basic) and lower than 7 it's acidic. The term alkalinity has little/nothing to do with pH. Rather it is a value that indicates how resistant the solution will be to having it's pH changed (buffering). It's possible to have a solution with zero alkalinity that has a pH of 11 and a solution with a pH of 7.1 that is high in alkalinity. All this really means is that when we take an acid and introduce it to the solution the higher the alkalinity, the more acid it will take before the pH changes. With low alkalinity the pH will change almost immediately in response to an acid, but with high alkalinity it requires more acid just to neutralize the alkalinity before the pH of the solution will change.

This is why with water high in alkalinity it will change the pH in a container, but regardless of pH water low in alkalinity won't (well, it will, but it takes muuuucccchhhh longer). JAG, is there any advantage of using a fast draining mix like 5:1:1 over say a peat based mix in a SWC?

I think so, but the advantages are not likely to be as noticeable or significant as in a top watered container. SWCs have a few advantages over top watered containers that compensate - to an extent - for less well aerated mixes. One advantage is no top watering to compact the mix or to pull the smaller particles to the bottom of the mix where they collect and form a significant perched water table.

Another advantage found on well designed SWC is an aeration screen that separates the water from the mix with a layer of air. This allows air to flow over the bottom of the mix where oxygen values are lowest in top watered containers.

The last advantage of SWC I will mention is that most folks grow veggies that like lots of water once established in them. You would be hard pressed to find a person growing succulents in them or trees or really anything that detests wet feet. The plant material most, including myself, grow in SWC are fairly easy, tolerant, adaptable plant material. More "difficult" plant material I don't do in SWC though I am certain it could be done well. There are a lot of mix recipes for SWCs but I could not find any detailed information more than the basics.

Well, welcome to gardening and the wide world of anecdotal experiences ;) The majority of people who have their mixes and recipes haven't a clue. It seems to work for them, but they don't know why, they only know that it does and so they talk it up. A potting mix is an utterly simplistic thing. It needs to not be toxic to the plant (and a mix with hardwood bark/sapwood *is* toxic in the sense it makes it hard to get the proper amount of N to the plants). It needs to hold enough water and nutrients until we can reasonably add more and it needs to provide adequate anchorage for the plants in it.

That's all it has to do.

In SWC there is an additional requirement in that the mix needs to wick water upward against gravity and it needs to do this faster than evaporation takes water away from it.

Of course there is the whole oxygen thing and this means the mix can't be comprised of such small particles that there just isn't room for anything other than standing/perched water that displaces oxygen. Also how does the fertilizer from the strip become available to the plants over a period of time?

That is a *very* good question! The answer is moisture. For the granular ferts the mix *must* be moist where it contacts the fertilizer or it will never enter the mix. If it is moist then simple diffusion (science stuff) goes to work for us. The area immediately around the fertilizer will be high in salts and as long as there is moisture present high concentrations of salts will diffuse into areas with lower concentrations attempting to achieve an equilibrium. In other words the fertilizer will fairly evenly diffuse into all of the mix as long as the material around it is moist/damp.

This is a potentially huge disadvantage to using a surface strip of fert and it's why many mix the fert into the mix and it's one of the reasons I use water solubles in the reservoir instead.

I have been in a bit of a rush in typing this reply so I apologize if I glossed over anything. Feel free to ask follow up questions if you need to and I will try to address them to the best of my ability later when I don't have to run.

JAG, your post brought a smile to my face as I read it this morning. Lot of things make sense. I have 4 containers with the 521 mix and two of those have the soil conditioner with the hardwood fines mixed with pine. The plants in these are more effected than the others. I top watered these two with 1/2 strength soluble fert and will fertilize the other two with 1/4 to 1/3 strength.
Over the past couple of weeks when I was trying to identify the growing problems, I tried to measure the pH of the mix using a pH meter and the soil test kit. But without knowing the alkalinity of the solution you cannot measure how much acid to put. Is there an easy way for a home owner to measure the alkalinity of the solution. I tried but could not get the calculations of how much vinegar to put. I am going to leave the pH issue alone now but was curious about this.
JAG, the second question I have is about your fertilization/watering routine. For soluble fertilizers, the concentration is going to change depending on how frequently we water and when we add the fertilizer. Without using an external device, how can we achieve a reasonably consistent concentration or should we even worry about it. Also I think you mentioned about switching to a different fertilizer when the plant starts flowering/setting fruit. Which one do you use.
I have a asked a lot of questions and appreciate your patience but this has helped me a lot. Thanks again.

Hardwood fines in mix can create problems. Effects pH and nitrogen uptake. See link and scroll down. But it is used in mixes so I hope they are composting first.

Greensingh, Do you have pics of your tomatoes in plain PB 5-2-1?
Does anyone have any pics of full size tomato PLANTS growing in 5-1-1 from last year or whenever? No close-ups of tomato fruit please or pics of what you harvested. Prefer to see plant. Jag (or anybody)do you have any pics of plants in 5-2-1 in SWC?

greensingh, You shouldn't have to add MG or any other fertilizer once a SWC is set up (Unless you want to go that route but most people don't). If you have to do that I personally would not consider it a good mix for a SWC as the beauty of the design is you only need to fertilize once in the season. If your 5-2-1 is not giving results like Ray gets I would question using it in SWC.

EB originally instructed that organic fertilizers be mixed in the whole box (3 cups). They never did that with the synthetic fert. That was always a strip. Now EB recommends strip for organic too but you may have to bury a bit to prevent animals from digging it up.

Like Ray I have great results from peat based mixes when growing tomatoes. But I am planning some experiments comparing various mixes.

I have no experience with pine bark as it is not readily available and I prefer a premix bagged product but I will make a mix for experiments. Or if I got a greater yield.
I know straight bark has been used in soilless culture in greenhouses and containers in the field but these were top watered.

I read quite a while ago where they grew peppers in 100% pine bark successfully and I have been meaning to try this but as a control I will also grow in quality peat mix as I know this works also and it is easier and, at this point, cheaper to get. The hard-to-get pine bark would have to have a greater yield to get me to switch or better longevity beyond one season.

I bought a bag of Fafard's 52 (60% bark/24% peat) and it said on the bag that you needed to monitor fertilization more carefully due to bark. I was saving the bag but it accidentally got tossed so I can't give exact wording. I like the way the mix looks and feels so will buy another bag and then can reread it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Hardwood fines in mix-scroll down

Like Raybo, I prefer a simple yet complete pre-made soil mix. I also use the MG Potting Mix he showed along with the MG Moisutre Control Potting Mix for maters.

Over the past couple of weeks when I was trying to identify the growing problems, I tried to measure the pH of the mix using a pH meter and the soil test kit. But without knowing the alkalinity of the solution you cannot measure how much acid to put. Is there an easy way for a home owner to measure the alkalinity of the solution.

Probably, but not that I know of. Here is the way I figured out how to manipulate the water I use: I purchased some pH test strips that change color to indicate pH in .5 increments. I spose the test kit you have would do the same thing, but I personally don't like the test kits as I can never really match the solution color to the colors on the card. Anyway, I just fill a 5 gallon bucket to the 4 gallon mark with tap water. I then added 1 tsp of vinegar at a time and tested the pH. By doing this I learned the amount of vinegar I need to add to shift it from 7.5 and high alkalinity to 6.0. It isn't much, about 1 ounce for 4 gallons.

I then quickly poured 'a glug' of vinegar into a bucket and conveniently it comes out to be around 1 ounce. So now I just add '1 glug' of vinegar into the bucket, fertilizer and then use that.

Personally I wouldn't worry about any of this unless you have high alkalinity water and your water supplier should be able to tell you the properties of the water they are supplying. JAG, the second question I have is about your fertilization/watering routine. For soluble fertilizers, the concentration is going to change depending on how frequently we water and when we add the fertilizer. Without using an external device, how can we achieve a reasonably consistent concentration or should we even worry about it.

It doesn't have to change. If you always use water with fert mixed at a particular strength then other than evaporation from the reservoir (which I consider minimal) the dilution rate will remain constant.

Something that I generally don't do, but it isn't a bad idea, is to periodically flush the mix and reservoir via overhead watering to prevent the possibility of a salt build up. Also I think you mentioned about switching to a different fertilizer when the plant starts flowering/setting fruit.

I don't change the fert for flowering. The research I have done has led me to the conclusion that while plants may use more or less nutrients at different stages of growth, the ratio of nutrients changes very little, if at all. As a result the ferts I use are MG 24-8-16, Foliage Pro 9-3-6 and Pro Tekt 0-0-3. I consider the MG and FP interchangeable other than the FP has a few nutrients that the MG doesn't. The ProTekt is to supply silicon, but also to adjust the ratio of K to N as tissue analysis of many plants, veggies in particular, seem to perform best with a little more K than the 3:1:2 ratio ferts provide. This isn't to say they don't do well with a 3:1:2 ratio, only that they may do a tad better with a little more K.

JAG, I use drip emitters to water into the tube of the swc, which in the peak of summer is daily, hence my question about fertilizer concentration. I guess I can weekly replenish the soluble fertilizer.
I have watered my containers with the soluble fert and will keep my itchy hands away for a week and keep my fingers crossed.

Farkee, I have grown in peat based mixes (Promix) before with good success but I wanted to see if I could do better with say a 5:2:1 mix. I guess the key for this mix is either you provide a soluble fertilizer which is available to the plant immediately or let the mixture sit for a bit before planting so that it was already stabilized and the nutrients are available to the plants as they go in. In miracle grow type mixes, they already have some fertilizer mixed in so this is not an issue.
I hear you about finding pine fines. I have to travel a bit to get them and then I try to load up as much as I can in my smallish car. Next year I will probably do one container with the 521 mix and do it right and keep the fines for indoor plants and woody stuff. I checked out the link you posted, interesting info about hardwood fines. It indicated the pH of composted hardwood fines to be close to 8.0. I guess the pH in my two containers with hardwood fines would have been quite high and that probably added to the problem.I do have two other containers which don't have the hard fines in the mix and I would post pics once the plants hit the next gear. I agree, with the overhead of preparing this mix, there has to be a favorable increase in production and longevity of the mix to justify it. But I probably won't get that answer this year. It might be a good idea to do a comparison of a properly prepared bark based mix say 5:2:1 and a peat based mix.

tn_veggie_gardner how are your cherry tomatoes coming along.

Ok, I admit it! I bought a bag of Bone Meal 6-9-0 at Wal-Mart the other day. ;-) It will be added sparingly instead of my next scheduled fertilization/food day.

Anyways, greensingh: They're doing great. =) Wee maters to arrive soon, flowers & buds all over the place, etc.. I'll have some higher quality pictures up in the next day or so, but here's some from this past weekend.

Same 2 maters...3 different pics...
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San Marzano Organic flower...mmmmm...
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How'd this get in here? ;-)
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Peace - Steve

Wanted to post an update on this. The plants have now recovered and looking good. The new growth looks good and the plants are budding and flowering. I fertilized the plants with half strength liquid fert and added some to the water reservoir as well.
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The container with the promix is doing very well. The plants are more than 5' with lots of flowers and fruit set.
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Thanks for your help JAG and everybody else. One thing is still a mystery to me. It seems the fertilizer strip did not work with the bark based mix. I researched a bit about the earthbox potting mixes and it is not a requirement to have some fertilizer mixed in, in addition to the strip. I had promix in another box and this was not a problem. So I wonder if there is a correlation between particle size of the potting mix and its ability to diffuse fertilizer.