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| I have a few well established plants growing in both mixes and they seem fine. I repotted a few sprouts or small seedlings into both and they are still alive but they don't seem to be growing. All are hot peppers (same variety).
Above is a picture of a seedling that was originally in ProMix and was about the same size over a week ago once put in 5:1:1. Was sprayed with Epsom Salts and Fish Emulsion.
Second picture is the same type in 5:1:1 as well. Not any bigger than when it was planted over a week ago. Not pictured, but in the same container is a sprout that was fine once transplanted into the 5:1:1 but slowly died.
Third picture is a larger plant and it is showing signs of growing since it's been in this mix, and same fert treatment. It's in 1:1:1 mix. Do plants generally need to be about this size before 5:1:1 or 1:1:1 will be beneficial for them?
Fourth picture (above) are 3 leggy seedlings that were in Promix and are in 5:1:1 now and all received same fert. treatment. I figured by now over a week later they would be thickening at the stems and filling out a bit. They do seem healthy but they aren't growing that much or at all. It wouldn't surprise me if one day one withers away/shrivels up as it's happened to a few of the ones not showing signs of growing. I have lost a couple of small seedlings once transplanted in 1:1:1 and 5:1:1, so I am wondering if these aren't idea mixes for plants that have just developed roots. I have tomato cuttings that are in a Promix pot waiting for roots to develop, but would either the 5:1:1 or 1:1:1 mix not be ideal until the plant gets to be about a month old or will they have the same non growth I am experiencing with the peppers? |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by greenman28 Nor Cal 7/8 (My Page) on Wed, Aug 18, 10 at 14:03
| I grow hot peppers from seed exclusively, and I start the seeds themselves in a gritty mix. In general, once I see roots peeking from the drainage holes, I move the seedlings into a 5-1-1. Pepper seedlings require very little moisture - and never need to be sitting in a tray of water. Germination rate is always 100%, although a seedling or two usually dies after sprouting. This is where I start: three 6-packs filled with a gritty mix -
Most seeds will germinate within 7 days. Some C. Chinense took up to 11 days, however.
When they have 3 - 5 sets of true leaves, I pot them up:
Here they're in 4-inch pots, in a 5-1-1, where they're stay until transplant time:
My biggest problem is under-feeding my seedlings. |
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- Posted by pkapeckopickldpepprz z9 a/b FL (My Page) on Wed, Aug 18, 10 at 14:16
| Can you explain why the seedlings like in your picture in my case aren't getting to the 3 or 4 leaf stage after a week or so? I have other examples that were the same size and they are in the same Promix container cells and they are already growing and have 2-3 leaves and are growing. Seems like only the seedlings in the 5:1:1 and 1:1:1 are not growing for me. |
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- Posted by pkapeckopickldpepprz z9 a/b FL (My Page) on Wed, Aug 18, 10 at 14:22
| Have you had a sprout ever die after being that size for over a week, or even seen a sprout stay at that same size for a week? I am giving them more sun gradually every day keeping them from direct sun at this stage or they will burn to a crisp. I am crossing my fingers these little sprouts make it as they are the only sprouts I have still alive that are from the Bhut Jolokia seeds that germinated. |
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| W/o knowing what all you're doing to your plants, it's hard to tell why they aren't doing well, but the odds are, it's something you're doing - not the soil. I'm not saying that to shift focus from the soil, there is more than enough evidence to support the idea that a properly made 5:1:1 soil or gritty mix is an excellent medium for plants at/in any developmental stage. It's not unusual for newly transplanted seedlings to stall for a while after transplanting. The dying plants may be related to what you're spraying them with, watering habits/damping off, your nutritional supplementation program, light, temperature ..... I would put all these possibilities and probably a few more ahead of your medium as the likely source of your problem(s). Al |
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- Posted by pkapeckopickldpepprz z9 a/b FL (My Page) on Wed, Aug 18, 10 at 14:51
| I get that Al, it just seems strange ones in ProMix get the same exact treatment as the ones in the 5:1:1 and 1:1:1 mix. I guess the only thing I could think of is perhaps transplant shock. It rained twice yesterday so perhaps that might influence it some, but the idea the 5:1:1 and Gritty Mix are much better draining than straight ProMix, if it were water concerns then wouldn't the ProMix sprouts suffer worse than either of Al's mixes? |
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- Posted by jojosplants (My Page) on Wed, Aug 18, 10 at 15:28
| It's hard to tell from your pictures. But the plants look very small. Maybe they were transplanted way too young and are in shock? Josh stated that he would leave them until roots came out the bottom, which is a good size seedling. Also, I haven't tried peppers yet, but the tree's and gourds i started in the 5-1-1 sprouted right away and grew like crazy. And when transplanted into their new containers, never wilted and took off! JoJo |
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| The last two years my peppers have failed in the 5-1-1. After four months, little/no growth. After the first year I thought it was because I didn't sift the bark and maybe the mix was too water retentive. So I sifted this year, used wicks too and only watered when they were dry and had the same problem. I fertilized .25 tsp. Foliage Pro every watering. Finally gave up last month and transplanted all of them into a 50/50 mix of commercial potting soil and perlite and they are thriving. I do love the gritty mix for all my other plants, just for me the peppers in the 5-1-1 doesn't work. |
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- Posted by lathyrus_odoratus 5A-IL (My Page) on Wed, Aug 18, 10 at 18:52
| I have had problems with bark based mixes and African Violets. All other plants I've tried are fine - hippeastrum, philodendron, tomatoes, herbs, okra, etc. I have not tried peppers. with the AVs, the roots start to die quickly and turn brown. Within a couple weeks they are losing leaves because they have few roots left. If I take them out before they get too far, I can cut off all the roots, repot them in another mix, and they live. If I leave them too long, they die. I can assure everyone that nothing is different between the ones that do well in a peat-based mix and the ones that fail in a bark based mix. I have yet to figure out the cause. |
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- Posted by greenman28 Nor Cal 7/8 (My Page) on Wed, Aug 18, 10 at 20:20
| If the seedling is staying small and falling over at the soil-line, then I assume damping off. Which probably means that the environment is staying too moist. One of my friends is growing Peppers exclusively in 5-1-1/gritty type mixes. Josh |
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| FWIW - I've grown lots of perfectly healthy peppers in both the gritty mix and the 5:1:1 mix, though I prefer the gritty mix for the superior drainage. I recently posted a picture of this year's ornamental pepper, which is growing in the 5:1:1 mix, and it's quite fit - lots of fruit & attractive foliage. I also posted pictures of AVs in the gritty mix not long ago that were purchased last summer & over-wintered under lights in it. I think the AV pics might have been posted at another garden site. I have 1 pic, but can't find the other for some reason. It's doing very well, so I could always snap another if anyone doubts what I'm saying. Getting plants to grow in container media isn't about what the media is made of - as long as it's not toxic to plants. It's about the physical properties of the mix and how long it's able to retain those properties. Healthy AVs and peppers could be grown in broken glass, with proper attention paid to the details. Al |
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| I've had luck with Miracle Gro starting mix. This was taken in June. jalapeño's, basil, parsley, with a few marigolds
I start all my seedlings in a soiless seed-starting mix (MG)and plant outside in containers in straight Miracle Gro when the weather warms. I mulch lightly with some shredded bark. I've have no problems. Jane |
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- Posted by greenman28 Nor Cal 7/8 (My Page) on Thu, Aug 19, 10 at 9:55
| These pics are from May 1st. An Arbol Chile seedling just prior to planting. One of the best container peppers, too.
And here's a Poblano, going from a 5-1-1 to the ground. Notice the healthy, still-green cotyledons....
Josh |
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- Posted by greenman28 Nor Cal 7/8 (My Page) on Fri, Aug 20, 10 at 10:56
| I think I should compile a proper Thread on Container Peppers, but I'll go ahead and add these pics for now. All images are current as of two days ago. Due to some bad business with Seedrack.com (Please Avoid Them!), my buddy didn't receive his Black Pearl or Scotch Bonnet seeds until well into the growing season. But no matter...the seedlings are trucking along! Black Pearl:
Josh |
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- Posted by pkapeckopickldpepprz z9 a/b FL (My Page) on Sun, Aug 22, 10 at 16:39
| Not much difference from first pics, you be the judge:
Didn't post a pic of this the other day but nothing much has changed. the one plant on the right still only has one leaf, I'd figure there woud be new sets of leaves by now.
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- Posted by emgardener (My Page) on Sun, Aug 22, 10 at 17:30
| pkapeckopickldpepprz, Judging from your pictures they seem nitrogen deficient. This is the first year I've grown mostly from seeds and I've been amazed at how much fertilizer seedlings need. The common perception (at least for me) was that seedlings should only get little fertilizer or it will burn them. I used foliage pro for my seedlings and kept adding more whenever the leaves looked at all yellowish, like yours do. For an experiment, I totally over-fertilized one seedling and kept doing it until it finally died. You might try that just to get a feel for how much fertilizer is too much, sacrifice a seedling and see if you can over-fertilizer it, you'll be surprised by how hard it is. You might also be under watering the seedlings? You should use the the finger method to check daily (or at least every other day) for the correct moisture level. |
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- Posted by pkapeckopickldpepprz z9 a/b FL (My Page) on Sun, Aug 22, 10 at 21:06
| emgardener, peppers don't need much nitrogen and I do supply enough as I use Fish Emulsion, coffee grounds, rabbit manure and Mor Bloom. It's weird since there will be people on here saying I am using too much fertilizer, and then others like yourself that will saying I am using too little. The problem isn;t too much or too little fertilizer trust me. And just like watering, some on here will saying I am watering too much and others like yourself will say I am watering too little. It does rain here in Florida as it is raining now, but I don't water until the soil is dry a few inches down and usually wait until leaves wilt to get hotter peppers by stressing the plant. Just curious why the plants in Pro Mix have no issues but the 5:1:1 mix is the only different variable in the equation here. |
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- Posted by greenman28 Nor Cal 7/8 (My Page) on Sun, Aug 22, 10 at 21:34
| If you want your seedlings to look like mine, you might want to eliminate the "organics" in your mix. That seems to be the Wild Card in this mystery, and possibly the source of all your frustration. You won't get hotter peppers by stressing the plant right now. Josh |
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| I don't think you understand nutrition and soil science well enough yet to make the judgements you're making. You're very sure it can't be this or that, yet you are still having trouble and taking the easy way out by blaming the soil. Simply supplying FE, coffee grounds, and rabbit poo + Mor Bloom doesn't mean your plants are GETTING N, or several other nutrients for that matter. The fact is, you have little idea of what you're supplying, what the ratio of nutrients are, or when those nutrients might be available. Even if you were using a commercially prepared bagged soil, I still wouldn't be buying your protests that it's the soil because of your described fertilizer regimen. If you're using coffee grounds and rabbit poo, you're not really using the 5:1:1 mix; and if a thousand people can grow perfectly healthy plants in a particular soil, and you can't, that puts the issue squarely on the side of 'grower error' as far as I'm concerned. No one minds if you want to do things your way, but you need to be reasonable in where you levy blame for less than stellar results, or someone else will point out the inconsistencies in your reasoning. Simply put, you should look to how you MADE the soil and your nutrition supplementation program for your answers. If it's not there, look to your watering habits. Again - if a thousand CAN grow in a particular soil, and one CAN'T, it's not the soil. Al |
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- Posted by pkapeckopickldpepprz z9 a/b FL (My Page) on Sun, Aug 22, 10 at 21:54
| Josh I didn't mean I was stressing out the seedlings, and wasn't it you actually saying I was over watering and it was damping off causing the seedlings to die? Just strange you would say on one hand that I am over watering causing damping off, and then to not limit the watering haha. I am watering the plants fine. As far as the organics go I have never had a problem with them before and don't now as I am getting a load of peppers as we speak (those plants are in Pro Mix BTW). The only variable is Seedlings+bark mix=no growth. Seedlings+Pro Mix=normal growth. Larger Plants + bark mix=normal growth. This is what I have observed and if there was transplant shock how many weeks before growth is noticed? |
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- Posted by pkapeckopickldpepprz z9 a/b FL (My Page) on Sun, Aug 22, 10 at 22:14
| Al, I'm not sure you are understanding me. The plants that are full grown are DOING GREAT!!!! Plenty of peppers, healthy plants etc. I'm not blaming you or your mix per se. I was curious as buzzsaw up thread also has a similar post where he tried the 5:1:1 mix and for him it didn't work out as well as the 50/50 mix of potting soil and perlite. I wouldn't call him inexperienced or a novice because the 5:1:1 mix didn't work for him for peppers (but did work well for other plants). I actually appreciate his post and I was curious why you or Josh just ignored his post, which I found quite insightful as it is good to find other people with experienced good and bad that one can learn from. Al, the pictures I have posted were the seedlings transplants from Pro Mix to the 5:1:1 mix. My other plants I started months or overwintered are still in their potting mix and I didn't transplant them but they are doing great. I find it odd you would insinuate I have no clue what I am doing when I have been growing peppers for 25 years. Also with my limited experience so far with the 5:1:1 mix it seems to dry out pretty quick which can be good when it is rainy here so the roots aren't sitting in water. I haven't tried any of the larger plants transplanted in the 5:1:1 mix yet in full sun yet, but I am concerned they may dry out too fast, but I will try this out this week. |
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| How big were your pepper seedlings when you transplanted them? Also, do you start them with one plant per small pot, or several plants in one larger pot? It *could* be that damping-off might be an issue, since a larger pot will hold more moisture, as you probably know. Al - As soon as I can find a good source for cheap glass, I'll plant a pepper in crushed glass like you mentioned upstream. It would make a great demonstration planting for my university greenhouse. |
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- Posted by greenman28 Nor Cal 7/8 (My Page) on Sun, Aug 22, 10 at 22:58
| Yes, I did indeed make the statement that a small seedling that falls over at the soil-line after a week is probably damping off....caused by too much moisture. That doesn't mean you were over-watering - it means that there could have been too much moisture at the soil-line. I'm glad you're not stressing your seedlings (by dehydration)! Josh |
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| Please be careful not to turn my words around. I said, "I don't think you understand nutrition and soil science well enough yet to make the judgements you're making", which is quite different than insinuating you don't know what you're doing. Just because event B follows event A, is not necessarily evidence that A is the cause of B. Evidence, because so many have started and transplanted seedlings into the gritty mix and the 5:1:1 mix, strongly supports the idea that you're doing something wrong or inconsistent with a favorable outcome using a well-aerated soil, and I can say the same thing for Buzzsaw. I would be telling you the same thing, whether you were using MG soil, your own mixture, or any other soil. I have no idea how you made the soil, but if it contains ingredients other than the ones listed, it's not one of the soils I recommended. You mentioned coffee grounds in the soil. Here is something I left only a few days ago on the soil/composting forum: Forum discussions frequently center on the question of adding dilute coffee/tea or grounds to plants as a 'tonic', but Arabica (coffee) and Camellia (tea) are known for their toxic alkaloid (caffeine) content and their allelopathic affect on plants as well as autotoxic (poison to their own seedlings) effects on future generations. Caffeine interferes with root development by impairing protein metabolism. This affects activity of an important bio-compound (PPO) and lignification (the process of becoming woody), crucial steps for root formation. It's entirely possible you've compromised your plants ability to grow to their potential via your inclusion of the coffee grounds or one of the other extras you're using. Al |
Here is a link that might be useful: The thread I quoted from
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- Posted by emgardener (My Page) on Mon, Aug 23, 10 at 12:59
| Al, Thanks for the coffee info. I've been adding coffee grounds under my citrus trees for years, hate to think it's been in vain. |
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| I don't think it's as much of a potential issue in the garden/beds as it is in containers. Al |
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- Posted by pkapeckopickldpepprz z9 a/b FL (My Page) on Mon, Aug 23, 10 at 20:13
| I'm not saying your info is incorrect Al regarding coffee grounds being more of a toxin than a tonic, I just know as well as many other rose growers that add coffee grounds, alfalfa meal or other organic ammendments, whether in containers or in the ground, the results are noticeable with new basal shoots. |
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- Posted by rainygarden (My Page) on Mon, Aug 23, 10 at 22:42
| This may be of interest here. I had posted this in the soil thread. http://www.cycad.org/documents/Broome-Coffee-2007.pdf |
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| The occurrence of basal shoots is physiologically controlled by hormonal interaction within the plant and not affected by nutrition except to the degree that plants need nutrients to grow. I can affect basal sprouting to a much greater degree with 5 minutes of considered pruning than you can through a year's worth of 'nutritional manipulation' - besides, are you trying to grow basal sprouts or a healthy pepper plant? Coffee grounds, alfalfa meal, and many other organic amendments also destroy aeration and inhibit drainage, which has/can have a considerable affect on growth and color. With all those extra additives, you're not growing in the gritty mix OR the 5:1:1 mix. Your conclusion is something like this: I went to the ice cream shop and ordered a vanilla ice cream cone; but I like root beer floats, so I told the server to mix 25% root beer into the ice cream. She gave it to me and it all leaked out of the bottom; therefore, vanilla ice cream is not suitable for ice cream cones. Good luck. Al |
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- Posted by pkapeckopickldpepprz z9 a/b FL (My Page) on Tue, Aug 24, 10 at 13:34
| Al I don't want to argue and I see where you're going with this. First of all I brought up roses and the ammendments everyone in the rose growing industry swears by, I find it odd for you to say all of these Master Rosarians are WRONG. I brought up roses as I see the difference these organic ammendments make, and while pruning can do the same, they don't have the same affect. I say this with experience as I tend to over 150 hybrid tea roses and I can see the difference between a severe pruning to promote basal breaks and ammending with organics to promote basal breaks. So to answer your question, no I am not trying to make basal breaks on a hot pepper. I will say that the pictures in the OP were done without adding any ammendments so that can be set aside. I think it was transplant shock as they are still alive but not thriving yet. I will also say initial observations of 3 Earthboxes filled with 5:1:1 with 1 tomato per box isn't doing as well as I would have expected. The wicking action isn't happening and until a large root structure is formed I am expecting to have to water the top of the soil as the 5:1:1 mix isn't wicking up the water through the water reservoir. |
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| Looks like you already have all the answers, which is fine by me. Almost everyone that tried to offer advice or point to the likely causes of your issues, on more than just this thread, was met with a bunch of reasons why you wouldn't try what they suggested, and claims that your way was perfectly fine. In my first pots, I offered, "It's not unusual for newly transplanted seedlings to stall for a while after transplanting." (transplant shock - which is what we've come full circle to?) Again, you turned my words around. I didn't say a single word about rosarians - right or WRONG. But I really do doubt that "... everyone in the rose growing industry swears by [coffee grounds, rabbit poo, and alfalfa meal]" - especially not for roses grown in containers. As far as the earth boxes go, a quick look around the forum will reveal that it's pretty common knowledge the porous 5:1:1 and gritty mixes don't wick well enough in their original ratio to be used in deeper SWCs. It's usually suggested you tinker with the peat fraction, with how much the ratio is changed depending on how coarse/fine the bark fraction is. It's often suggested that a ratio of somewhere near 5:2-3:1 is a good starting point. We obviously don't exchange information well, so I'll move along and hope you get the answers you want. Al
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