I cant help you specifically, but I did see where a guy on a bonsai site did a test by letting the NAPA stuff soak in water for a specific amount of time and it did break down into mush. I have no experience with it though.

Zip, try the thread/post below...very informative and hope it will help you.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've used it instead of Turface and it didn't turn to mush. Worked very well for me, it does hold a little more water than turface though.

Good Luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: Napa #8822 (Floor dry)

I've purchased only a few bags over time, but I've always found it to be entirely stable - even after freezing overnight in water & unthawing.

On a size for size basis, the floor dry holds more water. It has a little better CEC, but it has a higher pH, coming i at 7.0 as opposed to Turface's 6.2.

Al

I'm using it in a few containers and it's holding up fine. :) and my plant is doing very well.

Zip.. "Oil Absorbent Diatomite" sounds like the product description.

JoJo

NAPA sells two different oil absorbents. One is made from clay. and the other is made from Diatomaceous earth (DE).

WalMart sells a cat litter called "Special Kitty Natural Cat litter" that is noting but fired clay. It is the one in the red 25 pound bags. It costs less than $3 for 25 pounds. It might might have a bit more dust than some products and need to be screened, if you are really picky about that. I've added a few bags to my raised bed for tomatoes this year and it has really helped then not dry out as quickly as last year. The particles had not broken down in the past 3 months in my beds.

Here is a link that might be useful: Special Kitty: Natural Cat Litter, 25 Lb

Thanks all. I got 2 bags of the 8822 to play with. The guy there told me they had a bigger bag of the same stuff under the code #6040. I stuck with the 8822, based on the experience of others here. Got home and looked up the 6040 on their website, and lo, it is Oil Dri, another Turface substitute used by some in this group. The Diatomite is 25 lbs $6.43, the Oil Dri is 40 lbs $6.99. I guess which is the better deal depends on volume, not weight. I will check out that kitty litter too. thanks all, it's good to find options!!!

Napa says 8822 in large letters on the bag. That's the one.

Car-Quest also has a product that in me small tests was better (less dust and fine pieces = less waste)

both have had reports of turning mushy when wet. So last time I bought one bag at a time test, then buy a few more from the same shipment if it's good.

i got the dry floor, and the special kitty. and i found some oildri in the barn! plus there's a carquest in town. it's good to have choices! now, if only i could find some 1/8" hardware cloth...any suggestions, since it is not at HD, Lowes, etc. with 1/2" and 1/4" hardware cloth, nor with the window screen. thanks!

You don't want 1/8" cloth for the Turface or DE. Screen those products through aluminum insect screen & use the fines elsewhere.

Try a real hardware for the 1/8" cloth - maybe a blacksmith shop.

Al

thanks Al! i did do the insect screen, but there is a LOT of product that is just over 1/16"...is that ok? i thought 1/8" and above was the magic zone for preventing perched water? cheers

try another source for DE. The car quest brand stuff was more uniform, closer to 1/8" for me. That can change anytime I'm sure, too.

i made some quick and dirty anecdotal observations of Diatomite (aka Floor Dry), Oil-Dri, and Special Kitty (warning: zero science alert!). of course, your results may vary depending on batch, bag, sample from bag, planetary alignment, etc. ad nauseum. all were run through aluminum window screen.

some thoughts:
- all pass some product through screen, but in the small amounts i did, i don't see major differences in %, all are ~10%, which is way less than than what i hear about turface. what passes through is not primarily dust, more like small granules that remind me of fine clumping kitty litter.
- dustiness: kitty litter is least dusty, diatomite was most dusty, but the oil-dri sample was old so i cannot fairly judge its dustiness; it did not spew as much dust into the air as the diatomite, but it had the finest particles in the sift (you can see that in the photo) so i suspect it can probably be pretty dusty when new. i guess it makes sense that the kitty litter would be least dusty since people get excited about that sort of thing in their houses and some of the brands mention it in advertising (this one says 'low dust' on the bag).
- size consistency: diatomite wins by far, kitty litter is the biggest loser, oil-dri in between. you can see in the pic that diatomite has the smallest average size (1/8), then oil-dri (3/16), and kitty litter is all over the place. that's a BB (3/16) in the center of the pic.

{{gwi:46637}}

that's kitty litter at 2 o'clock, oil-dri at 6, and diatomite at 10. the big pile for each sample is some of what stayed on the window screen, the small pile is some of what went through.

cheers

now that you've chosen a candidate, next test is to soak in water for a few days and see if your source remains stable. If your soil will ever freeze, then freeze a portion of your sample to make sure it will hold up.

Concur with above, although I've never had trouble with Napa I did do both tests. And I've done testing as well, on size distribution and waste, but the anecdotal reports from many is so varied you need to just test what you can get your hands on yourself. I was looking for more water retentive, so slightly smaller particle size was OK for me -- including the granite component.

Al sifts with a #10 mesh, not insect screen, so he was reporting 40/60% waste with Turface. I did keep the very largest particles separate to use for houseplants.

I've used several bags of Napa Floor Dry and they've held up fine for over a year. I've never heard of anyone having a problem with it until the two second hand reports in this thread. I wonder if they're confusing it with something else.

I really wanted the Car-Quest product to work because of its larger particle size, but the bag I bought turned to mush when soaked overnight.

I've heard numerous reports of kitty litter and Oil-Dri turning to mush, so I really doubt we're going to find any useful products beyond Turface and Floor Dry. Still, it should be easy enough for most people to find one or the other.

There has also been good reports on the Moltan Oil Absorber that Autozone carries (product #7133). Below is a link to a review.

Here is a link that might be useful: Autozone's Moltan 7133 product

ZIPPELK,
When you said you were comparing the size consistency of the different calcined clays products, do you mean particle size distribution or particle size stability? One of things I like about calcined clays products is their stability, since they don't break down over time into a dense muck, but I don't understand why consistency of the particle size distribution is so important.

This summer I've used the WalMart Special Kitty Natural Kitty Litter on top of raised beds filled with course compost made from primarily leaves and lawn clippings. Because the compost is course and breaks down rapidly during the growing season, I had some problems last summer with large voids developing. I'm raising tomatoes, peppers, and herbs in these beds, and the large voids caused problems with the roots of plants drying out near these voids. When I started having the same problems this summer, I poured about an inch of the kitty litter on top the the beds. As I've watered the beds, the litter particles have settled down and mixed into the compost, and I've had much better water retention. For use in raised beds, I'm not concerned with the small dusty bits causing problems as I am with containers. In my beds, I'm growing tomato plants that transpire gallons of water per day during the summer, so maximum moisture retention is a major concern. The plants have tough, dense root systems than go down through a foot of compost and then dig into the heavy red clay beneath the beds.

This spring I started growing several dwarf fruit trees in containers. They have grown much better and faster than I expected this first summer, so this winter I need to move some of them from 5 gallon buckets to larger containers. I'm trying to read and plan ahead because I want to give these fruit trees an optimum medium for healthy growth in the future. I also have a limited budget. The oil absorbents and Turface cost 10 times what the kitty litter costs. My experience has been that the particle size stability of the kitty litter is pretty good, even though the particle size distribution varies.

Can someone explain to me why the consistency of the particle size distribution is important enough for 10 times the cost? I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just trying to understand and find the best best solutions that are affordable for me. With containers, I understand sifting or rinsing the clay products to remove the small dusty bits to prevent the mix in the bottom from getting too dense, heavy, and wet. Other than the small dusty bits, why is the size consistency so important? As long as the particle size ranges somewhere between 1/8 inch to 1/4 inch, why do they all need to be the same size? If the particles are too small they compact, and if they're too large it reduces the surface area of soil particles. As long as they are in that "Goldilocks" range, does it matter if they're not the same?

The link below is for a PDF file to download from the University of Florida Cooperative Extension Service. It has lots of information on the pros and cons of different container growing media. It has much of the same information that I've read on this forum from Al and others. It explains lots of stuff in very easy to understand language and provides lots of alternatives for growing media, since availability and costs can vary in different places.

Thanks,
Greg

Here is a link that might be useful: Growth Media for Container Grown Ornamental Plants

Hi Greg. I am new to these 'smart' container media myself, but my understanding from studying this forum is that particle size consistency is important because of its effect on drainage, which in turn affects perched water height and root aeration. If most of your particles are near 1/16", your pot will drain (or not drain) as if it were all 1/16". My understanding is that most of the inorganic particles (turface and grit, or whatever you use) should be around 1/8" for maximal performance of the gritty mix. Anyway, I started my water test today and will follow up with the freeze test. All 3 calcine media fizzed. But within just minutes, the Special Kitty was dissolving. The Dry Floor and Oil Dri seem to be holding up fine, so far. More as it develops, kcz

>>> As long as the particle size ranges somewhere between 1/8 inch to 1/4 inch, why do they all need to be the same size?
They don't.

If the particles are too small they compact, and if they're too large it reduces the surface area of soil particles. As long as they are in that "Goldilocks" range, does it matter if they're not the same?
Not really.

There is no special consideration required for size distribution, other than the obvious. You are already aware of the reasons to remove particles above and below the stated range by Al and others. The distribution of particle sizes withIN the range only affects the water/aeration ratio -- from a very minor to somewhat moderate effect. A majority of particles 1/8" holds more water vs. majority being 1/4".

The only other effect I've seen when there is a large range, that is, lots of both small and large particles but not many medium sized, yet all within the correct range, is the smaller particles will eventually sink to the bottom causing an inconsistent retention distribution through the container. For that reason, I have a tendency to put extra Turface near the top of the container to help the mulch in combating evaporation in my climate. Side note: I only mulch the gritty mix in certain containers in certain conditions.

My comment above about setting aside *some* of the largest particles while sifting is a personal preference. The gritty mix does retain a lot of water (especially mine, due to smaller grit) despite the initial misleading impression when so much of it drains away. Therefore I prefer a little less retentive mix by using the set aside largest Turface and grit particles, still within the desired range, for indoor houseplants labeled "dry" or "moderate moist soil".

update: 2 freeze-thaw cycles later and the Special Kitty is special mush, going somewhere else for cats to poop on. the Dry Floor and Oil Dry passed with flying colors.

Zip: glad at least the oil dry and dry floor worked OK in your area.

Greg: I'm interested in talking with you further about your fruit trees in containers in the gritty mix. I am doing the same thing, but didn't go completely gritty with them. Although I've said that some types of fruit trees can handle heavier mixes, I'm not suggesting heavier mixes are ideal.

Although all the trees I've used gritty mix for have thrived, I do NOT have experience with mature bearing trees yet. They have all been fairly young with limited fruiting, if any, so far.

I had one issue with a genetic dwarf peach, which had a few too many fruit on it for its size (after tons of pruning). I was unable to keep the tree hydrated in the gritty mix. In my spring/early summer heat, everyday the leaves would droop severely as if they were under-watered. Other genetic dwarf peaches/nectarines having NO fruit, but about the same foliage size, in the exact size containers and location, did fine and didn't droop until a few days without water.

My worry is this: I do not yet know of anyone on these boards who have used the gritty mix for a MATURE fruit tree with a FULL CROP. Once I can confirm this with someone, I'll feel much better. But fruit trees with short fruit cycles (only a few months between pea sized to softball size) I'm worried the tree's water requirements are not fully met by the gritty mix due to transpiration in my climate, increased evaporation of such a porous mix, and the daily heavy draw for fruit.

Speaking from limited knowledge of container tree hydraulics, specifically pressure/density of water at both the cellular level and inside the root zone, I'm wondering if a heavier mix somehow increases the pressure of water in the root zone, something akin to an additional "push" of water into the tree. Whereas the gritty mix, being more aerated with less water residing in macro-pores, has the opposite effect.

Maybe I'll put a thread together and ask that Al guy for his thoughts on how the media can affect the water within the system.

Hi Al,

What's your suggestion on using LECA(link attached)? I failed to find any local provider for Turface but LECA instead. Can I use it to replace Turface? Thanks

-Romain

Here is a link that might be useful: LECA

Hmmm - I thought I answered this question yesterday, but maybe it was on another thread or my post never made it through?

The 2-4mm size looks good as a substitute for Turface - should work just fine. You're resourceful! ;o)

Pollack Paint in Yonkers carries Turface MVP or Allsport, as do the John Deere Landscapes dealers in Larchmont, Hicksville, Fairlawn, Mountainside, and Fairfield, if that is of any help to you.

Al

Hi Al, you definitely answered this question yesterday, because I read it! Something weird is happening on some of these threads...some posts are disappearing. Very weird! Just wanted to let you know its not you,lol...Take care!

He answered it in the Alternative to Turface? thread, which is basically the same topic, thus the confusion.

Whew! ;o) Thanks! Thought maybe I was losing it.

Al