Shop Products
Houzz Logo Print
oxboy555

The function of the individual 5-1-1/Gritty components

oxboy555
9 years ago

I was thinking it might be worthwhile to either amend Al's big main post or try for a bumpable post that explains the function of the individual ingredients of the 2 main mixes. IOW, what specific role each one serves as it relates to general drainage, solution/water holding capacity, gas holding/exchange, soil integrity etc etc.

Bark fines -
Perlite -
Peat moss -

Bark fines -
Turface -
Grit -

I think somebody made a serviceable matrix or something a while back for substitution purposes, but I think it would go a long way toward education to explain the specific role of each recommended component in a nice neat format.

Comments (26)

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    9 years ago

    I'll start with the 5-1-1 -

    Bark: primary filler, offering structure / durability, favorable pH, fair moisture retention.

    Perlite: structure, aeration, balancing moisture retention.

    Peat: increase moisture retention, binding the other ingredients, favorable pH.

    Josh

  • oxboy555
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks Josh. Would love to see a similar breakdown from somebody for the Gritty.

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    9 years ago

    Would love to see a similar breakdown from somebody for the Gritty.

    Sure I can do that

    Bark - To make sure mix doesn't last long as this component will degrade in 2 years.

    Turface - To keep water away from roots, as pore size is too small for roots to access.

    Grit - What your teeth do as you watch your plant die.

    Well i thought it was funny anyway!

    I would replace turface with DE. It then would be a lot like 5-1-1 As it retains water like peat but never breaks down. This would be an awesome mix. To make it light weight you could use horticultural cork for grit. But the stuff is outragiously expensive. It would last longer than the bark, but would break down eventually. Probably perlite would be better. So the mix would be bark, DE, and perlite. I guess that would make too much sense, sorry.

  • oxboy555
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    What DE are you talking about? I've only seen DE as very fine powder.

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    9 years ago

    Gritty Mix

    Bark: partial filler, durable, lighter in weight, balances moisture retention, has a favorable pH, and contributes a small amount of organic matter to the mix.

    Turface: offers durability and structure, primary moisture retention, retains nutrients, and has a favorable pH.

    Granite / non-porous grit: inexpensive filler offering durability and structure, reduces moisture retention, sharp edges may facilitate root-branching via abrasion, increases weight for good root anchorage.
    ________________________________________

    Oxboy, there is a larger DE that is fired. It is very similar to Turface, having a slight edge in moisture retention and CEC, maybe pH, too. If you can find either Turface or DE for a good price, you can't go wrong. I, personally, think Turface looks better aesthetically.

    As for the claim that Turface doesn't release water to roots, well that's just plain false. Were it true, the plants I'm growing in pure Turface (in shallow tiny bonsai pots, no less!) would have been dead years ago.

    Josh

  • gregbradley
    9 years ago

    Yes, I have a Cocktail Grapefruit growing in 3 parts Turface Pro League (consistent 1/12"-1/8" size) and 1 part fine Orchid seedling bark as an experiment. It is doing well at this point after 8 months in brutal SoCal sun.

  • oxboy555
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    What brand is that Orchid seedling bark and where did you get it?

  • seysonn
    9 years ago

    Very good discussion topic. And thanks gents for sharing your thoughts and knowledge.

    I am not into gritty application. But this year I have used several barrels of 5-1-1. My plants are doing fine. I wouldn't know what is going on inside the pots until frost kills my plants an I get a chance to examine them.

    As I read Josh's description of the 5-1-1 ingredients, a question pops in my mind:

    -- on the one hand we use pine bark fines and perlite for drainage and then turn around to cancel it ou (some of it) by adding peat moss to provide moisture retention.
    Why not just use less perlite or no perlite or use DE instead ?
    I have a feeling that DE is versatile: As it absorbs water equal to its dry weight ( at saturation) from that point on works just like perlite, providing drainage.

    So here is what I am going to test next season:
    -- eliminate perlite and peat moss and use DE in their place. So I will end up with a beast like 5-2. The broken pine fines already act like peat moss anyway. Plus, peat has an erratic behavior ; It is either dry or soggy.

  • gregbradley
    9 years ago

    Oxboy,

    I've kept mostly careful track of the various mixes so that my results are better than anecdotal. Clearly I don't have a large enough sample or enough identical plant material to have a real scientific study but I have a LOT of citrus in pots.

    I originally bought 6 bags of Turface AVP and sifted it to make true Gritty Mix. I also bought 3 bags of Pro League and tested it at that particle size. It does perch about 1/2" of water at that particle size but it has virtually zero dust so it is a lot easier to use. I then bought a 2000 pound super sack and have just used the last of it.

    That plant is in Gardener's Professional Orchid Bark - Seedling. I bought it at Walter Anderson Nursery in Poway, which is a long way from here but they had some citrus that nobody else had. It is fir bark although not clearly labeled as that.

    GreenAll Micro Bark, available a mile from me at Armstrong Nursery is nearly as good. It is larger but not a lot larger.

    I'm going to OF Wolfinbarger to get pumice in bulk and they have similar bark products that I am going to investigate. They are in Chino.

    I understand Orange County Farm Supply in Anaheim has the Gardener's products but I haven't been there for 30 years.

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    9 years ago

    Seysonn,
    the peat isn't just for increasing moisture retention - it also "binds" the other ingredients to help regulate (evenly wick) moisture throughout the mix.

    I have my avocado growing in bark and turface, but it's not the easiest mix to use. Great during the Winter, a bit difficult to keep a full-size plant watered in the Summer. Also, the turface/DE tends to migrate down into the bark, creating a perched layer at the bottom and a dry layer at the top.

    Perlite has the advantage of decreasing moisture retention and holding the mix open (structure). Turface/DE will open the mix, but they'll increase moisture retention.

    Josh

  • the_yard_guy
    9 years ago

    Hey Everyone. Sorry I have been away and haven't had time to post anything lately. I think Josh pretty much covered the ingredients for both mixes. Good job Josh!

    My (very) unscientific experiments with using bark and DE this year are nearing an end. We haven't had a very hot summer here in the upper Midwest, especially compared to people in other parts of the country, so the results might be somewhat misleading.

    While I don't have solid scientific proof to back up the results I do believe that the trees I grew this year, mostly 2-year old pine, spruce and fir, all seemed to do very well in mixes of pine bark and DE. I did run a few experiments with various mixes but the best mix, at least for these specific trees, seemed to be 3 to 5 parts of unscreened pine bark and 1 part DE, with added lime and Osmocote Plus (original formulation).

    I won't know for sure how the roots look until late winter but the tops of the trees look good at this point. New growth is now beginning to harden off.

    TYG

  • oxboy555
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    What's the largest size of your unscreened pink bark chunks?

  • the_yard_guy
    9 years ago

    The last couple bags of pine bark I've used have been fairly uniform with the largest pieces about 1\2" (12 mm). Some bags earlier this year had to be screened since they had significant amounts of either very fine material or large pieces.

    TYG

  • gregbradley
    9 years ago

    Does fir bark degrade in 2 years or is that hyperbole?

    Pure Turface is working for some succulents, right?

    How similar is Pumice to Turface? I'm beginning to think it is more similar than different.

    My original true Gritty Mix was drying far too fast, particularly in Terracotta planters. I eventually adopted a Gritty-ish mix. I started with actual Gritty for the bottom 2" but gradually replacing the Granite with Pumice up to about the middle of the pot. So the top half of the pot is 1/1/1 Turface/Pumice/Fir Bark. This worked much better but bear in mind I'm in hot/dry SoCal interior.

    This post was edited by GregBradley on Sat, Sep 6, 14 at 20:00

  • oxboy555
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    It is not advisable to layer in different mixes, if that makes sense. You want the same mix top to bottom.

  • gregbradley
    9 years ago

    I understand that is a "rule", but I wonder about the details. I understand the reason why the old idea of gravel on the bottom of the pot for a draining layer does not work. A non-gritty layer that will perch water at the bottom of the pot will still perch the same amount of water above a gravel layer.

    A normal 26" Double Rim Terracotta Pot has 20" inside depth. laving about 18" for potting material inside. I would mix up a 3.5gal container of actual Gritty Mix for the bottom 3" "layer". The next 3.5gal would be the same except the gravel component would be 75% gravel and 25% pumice. I would pour a little in and mix it into the top 1/2" of the gritty so I don't have a sharp layer change. I would then pour the rest in. I would repeat the same process with the next "layer" using 50% gravel and 50% pumice. The next layer is 25% gravel & 75% pumice. The rest of the pot mix with all gravel replaced with pumice. The pot is getting wider as we go up so I am reaching 0% gravel in the mix at about 10" depth.

    This seems to be working well in my hot/dry climate. Las Vegas is a little hotter and probably dryer in the summer than Upland. A 6' tall citrus in a 22-26" pot with actual Gritty Mix droops its leaves while I'm gone to work on the average Summer day. There are about 50 days a year where it would need water morning, noon, and late afternoon to avoid water stress. We haven't had any of the 110F brutal days this Summer but they will come.

    I invite any input as I'm trying some more experimentation to try to come up with a semi-permanent mix. I ordered Turface AVP, Pro League, and some similar products. I'm trying to decide about Pumice or something else. 1/8"-3/8" pumice is cheap by the yard.

  • the_yard_guy
    9 years ago

    Greg, you might try adding a bit of diatomaceous earth (DE ) to your soil mix. DE holds a lot of water so it might help in your hot, desert weather. You would have to experiment to get the amounts correct but it might be of some benefit.

    TYG

  • gregbradley
    9 years ago

    Picked up the various Turface products for experimentation. I ended up ordering MVP, Pro League, Field & Fairway, & Greens Grade. It looks like MVP is the cheap stuff and is just the mix of large pieces down to dust. The others are mostly one size with no dust so don't require screening IF that size is useful. They are all smaller than what Al says is perfect for Gritty Mix. I only got one bag of Greens Grade as it is pretty small, basically Turface in all 1/16" size.

    Can't find DE anything around here that is fired to hold it's size.

    I'm still considering pumice for experimentation. I'm going to try to keep careful notes this time and be more scientific

    Here is Turface load #2.

  • the_yard_guy
    9 years ago

    Greg,

    If you are still looking for some DE to experiment with you can find it at most auto parts stores as an oil absorbent . Just be sure the bag specifically says Diatomaceous earth. Products like OptiSorb, Ultra Sorb, or NAPA 8822 are what you want.

  • gregbradley
    9 years ago

    I tried NAPA 8822. Soaked in water, it broke down badly in a week. I tried it in a clear glass jar. It still looked OK from the top but failed quickly at the bottom. I'm thinking it will break down in a pot way too quickly.

    I don't know if they changed it or if it varies by location or ????. I tried it last Fall.

  • the_yard_guy
    9 years ago

    Greg:

    Interesting about the NAPA 8822 breaking down in water. I have not heard of that before. All reports I've heard have the NAPA 8822 Floor Dry, and other DE products, being very stable.

    Has anyone else heard of this product breaking down?

    TYG

  • gregbradley
    9 years ago

    TYG,

    There are some reports on the web that match mine. BUT there are about 5 times as many that have positive reports.

    People jumping to conclusions or a product that varies by batch or location? My analytical engineer's mind wants to know but there seems to be a lack of scientific info available.

  • Pyewacket
    9 years ago

    Greg, things like Turface and the Napa 8822 are not uniform across the country. They are made by several factories scattered across the country, using different types of clay. (EDIT: Well, DE for the Napa 8822, which is supposed to be calcined DE but sometimes I wonder if it always is given reports of meltiness). Turface apparently varies in pH from around 4 to around 8 depending on the source.

    I, too, have seen reports of Napa 8822 that melted in tests. It melts even faster in a freeze thaw test. If you search, there are several reports that include pictures.

    I believe the Turface is likely more uniform in its properties than is something that is, after all, really only intended to soak up spills of yucky stuff. But it will vary somewhat from one source to another as well.

    I've recently laid hands on a bag of pumice, but its the end of the growing season - so I won't be able to test it for outdoor applications for some time to come.

    This post was edited by zensojourner on Sat, Sep 13, 14 at 3:17

  • the_yard_guy
    9 years ago

    I'll have a look around the web and see what I can find on this. I have not heard of DE breaking down but certainly anything is possible.

    Thanks for the heads up on this.

    TYG

  • Pyewacket
    9 years ago

    TYG - I surmise that properly calcined DE doesn't break down like that. The question is whether you can count on GETTING properly calcined DE.

    Apparently there is variation in the NAPA 8822 product in that regard.

  • the_yard_guy
    9 years ago

    Zensojourner: You might be correct about this. I suppose that any DE or clay- based product not properly baked will break down in a soaking test. Last year I tested the NAPA 8822 and OptiSorb, soaked both in water for several days, and both held up well. Also tried various cat litter products and they turned to mud within minutes.

    It's possible that manufacturers are trying to save money and either bake at lower temps or shorter times. All I know is that the OptiSorb I have does not turn to mush after several days of soaking.

    I guess the only thing guaranteed not to break down is granite or pumice.

    TYG