Happy to help.

If anything the increased shade will give it a chance to recover. You may not get as much growth, blossoms or fruit if spending too much time in the shade, but the alternative up on the roof didn't seem doable.

You don't have to remove the saucer, unless it's one of those pot+saucer attached deals. In fact a saucer is still recommended so you don't stain your balcony or deck. One thing I learned is put gravel or pebbles down in the saucer -- this has double benefit of getting the pot bottom up out of the water and creating a reservoir to increase humidity around around the pot (which is very helpful for me here in the desert).

You will see two mixes advocated here -- the 5-1-1 and the Gritty. I would love to be able to use the Gritty but it's too hot and dry where I live. Someday I may play around with the ratios and ingredients to get it more suitable for me, but for now the 5-1-1 works perfectly for both outside and inside. Good luck and report back or provide pics of your progress.

M...potting mix is the single most important factor. Get something that drains well. Do not get MiracleGro moisture control. It holds too much water. Keep it watered reasonably (depending on heat) and feed occasionally. You will be fine.

I heartily recommend the 5-1-1...or a modified gritty 5-1-1 (no peat).

My Meyer Lemon is the hungriest of my Citrus, and it will yellow and drop leaves unless I keep the nutrient levels fairly high. A prominent Citrus grower at the Citrus Forum recommends 1.5 strength doses of fertilizer, and that's what I do.

Josh

I realise that I never answered the question about where I live: I'm in Miami Beach in a condo where I have 3 choices about where to keep a plant/tree: balcony, rooftop, indoors. I love the rooftop because its bug free and I won't have to worry about any critters (except for birds).

Anyways I mixed up my first batch of 5-1-1 last night, barring the screening part and picking out the sapwood pieces. The bags I got had no bi chunks in it, so I figure its close enough. I used what I made to repot a small green pepper plant I had that wasn't doing to well due to the use of Miracle Gro Moisture Control Potting Soil in its pot. It was in sad shape: it had its leaves curled and deformed, had trouble supporting itself, and its biggest oldest leaves were constantly turning upside down. I carefully repotted it bare root style back into a plastic container at the existing root level. We'll see how it does!

1 follow-up question for you all: is this a good/bad/neutral time to try repotting the Improved Meyer Lemon?

Charlie

Florida is a little different, due to your long season....
however, this is not optimal timing for a re-pot. As a general rule, the best time to re-pot Citrus is in early Spring between flushes of growth. With a Meyer, it might be difficult to find time between growth since they always seem to be either growing, flowering, or fruiting. If the tree is healthy, I would limp it along through the Winter and re-pot next Spring.

Josh

Gah, too late. I repotted it last night :-P

I made me a 5 gallon batch of 5-1-1, pulled the plant out of the pot, cut off the bottom 1/3 of the roots, rinsed off the remaining soil keeping the roots wet the entire time, cut off some fugly looking root specimens growing in crazy directions, and replanted it.

I incidentally found 3 things which made me glad I did it now. First, the Meyer Lemon originally had a partner which died (Key Lime) and its rotting roots were still in the container unbeknowst to me. I removed said offender. Second, there were many petrified clumps of soil stuck onto various sections of the root system which I also carefully removed. Finally, I found that the root ball had been buried excessively underneath excess soil and a layer of mulch, both bad things for citrus from what I understand.

I watered it when I was done to wet the mix for the first time and help everything get settled, and placed the tree indoors next to a window so that it has time to recover.

I'll post progress here. I've attached a photo of what it looked like before its surgery.

Charlie

Chopper, is that mulch on top or the actual 5-1-1 mix? If the latter, some of those chunks are too big. Half inch and less is what you need, and no sapwood (i.e. non bark woody pieces like twigs, etc). If using bark mulch on top, I recommend making sure it doesn't mix down into the 5-1-1 and you may need more nitrogen than you think if the mulch starts sapping N needed by the tree. At any rate, your leaves look nice and lush.

This was actually before replacing the soil with 5-1-1. It had cedar mulch sitting on top. I've removed all that now. I'll attach a photo as soon as I get home of what it looks like 3 days after repotting.

Charlie

Here's a picture of it this morning. It looks like its recovering nicely, still has some curled leaves but I'm sure the roots are making a comeback. My Foliage Pro just got here in the mail yesterday, so I'm ready to start watering/feeding it as soon as its recovery is complete.

Its been raining heavily for the last few days and the sun has been hiding. I'll take it up to the roof for this coming weekend so that it gets to soak in some rays.

Charlie

Give it a good rain-soaking, too.
Rainy grey days are excellent for recovery after re-potting. Nice work!

Josh

Here it is a week after repotting. The leaves are still curled and I've had some leaf drop, but then again I didn't remove 1/3 of the leaves when I repotted either. I applied full strength FP yesterday. I'm keeping an eye out for new growth, but haven't noticed anything yet. There were already some new leaves coming out when I repotted, and they appear to be in the same state they were in.

Is is a good practice to put into place to remove all of the perched water from this specimen by "dropping it down and raising it up quickly"? Should I look into adding a wick so it happens automatically?

Charlie

I think a better solution would be to get it out of that tight saucer. In saucers like that, two things can work against us - 1) we tend to water less per sitting so we don't overflow and stain our patios. Watering in 'sips' as we're told can defeat the whole purpose of a free-draining soil media, and 2) another negative is that often the drain hole is 'plugged' flush by the top surface of the saucer, leaving no place for the water to go but stay in the bottom of the pot. This might not be a huge issue until the roots start colonizing the bottom portion of the pot, but I feel it's a bad habit and not good for the plant at any stage.

Your 5-1-1 looks pretty good. It's my understanding that you shouldn't need to shake or wick with one of Al's soil mixes if properly made. I don't like shaking - it can dislodge new rooting that is trying to establish itself.

Here's an updated photo as of this morning.

Still no new leaves, but the yellowing and dropping appears to have finished. Now I patiently await the arrival of new growth so that I can give the "all clear!"

I put three big rocks in the saucer to lift the pot out of the water. It appears to be performing as expected.

Charlie

Here's the latest picture of the Meyer Lemon. Its been some time since it was repotted. I have it back on the roof now getting full sunlight, but I have yet to spot any new growth. While its decline has stopped, it still has curled leaves. I'm watering it every other day with maintenance dosage of FP and TekT.

Charlie

Too much watering, it would seem.

Josh

Wow, what a fantastic thread..Beautiful work and advice everyone!!!

Take it from me who owns over 30 potted citrus..lol

Mike

I finally decided today to pull it up and check on it. My first repotting was way back when I hadn't read as much on here, not to mention it was dark and I didn't get a good look at the root system.

No surprise, full blown root rot. There was some new root growth for sure, but very little healthy white roots, and then only near the very top.

Don't get me wrong, I've been watering only when the soil was dry, testing with a moisture meter and checking pH and for the presence of any bugs to no avail. It just wasn't recovering like it should have almost 2 months after the original repotting. At least the remaining leaves were looking okay, albeit still curling, until recently when I noticed all of the leaves have a slight yellowish hue to them.

I wish I had gotten a picture of the roots, but I wanted to move quickly since I had everything laid out to take care of the problem. I shook off all of the 5-1-1 from the roots (wow, Al wasn't kidding when he said you'll never have any trouble repotting after changing the soil to 5-1-1) and dunked the roots completely for two minutes in 3 gallons of water mixed with 3 tablespoons of Organicide Plant Doctor I picked up at Home Depot as per the instructions. I swear you can see the difference immediately after pulling the roots out of the solution. I proceeded to repot it in a fresh batch (screened this time!) of mix along with some mycorrhizae fungus spores. Hopefully the good fungus replaces all of the bad and this tree makes a dramatic comeback.

I won't lie, while at the store I was about 30 seconds away from just buying a new Meyer Lemon, but I decided to go for it and see if I can bring it back to its former glory. Wish me luck!

I'll continue posting snapshots for any interested, and in case anyone else encounters this problem there are plenty of pictures to help diagnose the problem. Attached is a picture of the tree just before its second repotting.

Charlie

The wind kicked up something terrible today so I brought it inside along with my Sugar Apple I finally repotted today in 5-1-1. It didn't appear to be doing well either: the leaves were getting brown spots, turning yellow and falling off from the base of the tree out. I gave it a dip in the Plant Doctor as well just in case it caught the root flu from its neighbor.

I got the go-ahead to keep them indoors for the next two weeks so they can both recover free from wind and direct sunlight, not to mention careful monitoring of moisture. We'll see how it goes.

I've attached a pic of the Improved Meyer Lemon, 1 day after repotting.

Charlie

Here's the Na Dai Sugar Apple after repotting. Incidentally, I took off most of the yellow/brown leaves in an effort to make its recovery easier

Charlie

I have to post updated pics of the Sugar Apple and IML, but neither has really come back like I would've expected by now. The Sugar Apple looks pitiful, but the lemon at least has a handful of leaves that have unrolled and it may be on its way back from the dead after its bath in the root rot killer. I really hope the myco takes hold and the roots recover fully over the "winter" (the trees are on a rooftop in Miami Beach, I have to encapsulate "winter" in quotes)

Charlie

The sad, sad state of the Imrpoved Meyer Lemon tree.

Charlie

The sad, sad state of the Sugar Apple.

Charlie

Hey charlie,

How are your trees coming along? I am trying to understand why this is happening. I would hate for you to lose your trees.

Only thing i can come up with is maybe over watering? Its harder to over water in gritty/5-1-1 than in other mixes however, you may try testing with a wooded dowel, like a skewer used in barbequing instead of a moisture meter. insert deep into the center of the pot, leave it for 15 seconds, then pull it out. If its damp, it most likely doesn't need water.

The other thing that comes to mind, since this is 5-1-1, not gritty, it most likely needs its pH adjusted up with lime(dolomite). Otherwise, pH may be too low. And could result in a nutrient deficiency or toxicity.

Let us know what happens!

I'll check out the pH and moisture today, and report back my findings. I'll be sure to include a new set of pics for the sake of the archive.

Its been incredibly windy on and off for the last week or so, and rainy. I have no doubt that they have been getting alot of water the last week, but other than covering the top of the pots with plastic, I can't really avoid them getting wet when its raining alot.

The IML is doing better it seems, some of the leaves have begun "unrolling" themselves, though I have yet to see any new growth. It certainly hasn't gotten worse.

The Sugar Apple lost alot of its leaves. The ones that remain look healthy-ish, but I don't know how long this tree takes to recover, or if it normally sheds leaves this time of year. I have no doubt that the wind and rain are taking their toll on its recovery.

I used plenty of mycorrhizae fungus when replanting them thinking it would help in their recovery. I have no idea of any possible interactions between the combination of things I did at the same time: repotting, soil change, root bath in Plant Doctor to clear the root rot, and application of mycorrhizae fungus to the roots/soil.

Just by looking at them, I would say the IML is coming back, but right now the outlook for the Sugar Apple is dim :(

Charlie

Promised updates

More

I checked the pH on both and although I don't have a digital meter, its reading in the normal range, picture attached.

Maybe I am confused by your meter, but it looks to me like your pH is above 7? Isn't that a little high for citrus?

pH meters like this are generally very inaccurate. If that one is accurate, the pH is probably much too high. Realistically for it to be that high, you would have needed to have added a LOT of dolomatic lime. for 5-1-1, the pH of the bark and peat moss are very low. Between 4 and 5. The pH of perlite is 7ish. I would expect a pH of below 5 for sure if no dolomite was added because there would be 6 parts around 4.5 pH and 1 part around 7. If the meter is accurate, and it is actually around 7.5 then either way too much dolomite was added or something else is very wrong. :-)

Someone with more citrus experience can chime in on there preferred pH, however i would say that 4.5-5(pH of 5-1-1 with no lime) and 7.5(pH your meter shows) are both out of optimal range. Probably closer to 5.5-6 would be ideal, with 5-7 being max range.

For the sugar apple, i think its ideal range is 7-8 on the pH.

Normally for a well drained soil like these pH isn't that critical, its almost more like hydro than like planted in ground. However, if the media is untreated with dolomite, its likely way to low, especially for the sugar apple, and if it is 7.5 its likely way too high for the citrus.

I hope this helps. Would love to see your trees make a full recover!!

Hi M

Would love an update with pics!

My tree gave me lots of decent sized juicy lemons early last fall, but the leaves started curling at the tail end of the season just as yours were... then started yellowing... then every single one dropped but three. It's been wintering in my garage (with a medium sized window for a little light), and I am determined for it to make a comeback! I have a new, larger clay pot to transplant it in, some lava rocks for the bottom, some Miracle Grow citrus/cactus potting soil, and some CitrusGain fertilizer - same company that makes Bougain. I have always used an organic home mix, but I am desperate.

meyermike_1micha PLEASE feel free to impart any of your citrus wisdom on me!!

Hi everyone! Been a while, and I need to add some pics and info.

When I made my 5-1-1, I may have *possibly* used a little too much lime, but not like I tossed in an extra handful.

The Sugar Apple, as it turns out, is deciduous. I should have read up more before panicking. It has made a full comeback and even has flowers getting ready to bloom on each of the branch tips. It appears it is really loving the 5-1-1.

Charlie

Hope you don't mind me rotating your photo - better to se this way...
Rina

This post was edited by rina_ on Thu, Mar 6, 14 at 17:39

Thanks for the edit Rina!

The IML on the other hand, has all but died. I've pretty much given up hope in it recovering. I've let some Romaine Lettuce and Boxwood Basil grow in the pot and medium, and they are both doing fantastic. The IML did bloom after the (lol) cold front broke a few weeks back, but I have yet to see signs of a single new leaf growing.

I'm not going to repot it again. I've decided to pick up a new IML this week and do things right from the getgo and not overwater it like I did with the first one. I've learned so much since I first started trying to grow stuff on the roof that I'm sure it'll go better this time around.

Sorry for the lack of a photo, but its almost comical at this point. I'll take a snapshot of the twigs when I get home to properly document the thread.

MiniChopper4Me

This post was edited by MiniChopper4Me on Fri, Mar 21, 14 at 17:21

Hi Austin...I was just informed about your request..I am sorry.I had no idea until just now..Let me take a peek at what has been said and I will be back :-)

Let me know you are still looking at this..

Mike

Here's the latest from the IML

As long as those branches are green, it WILL come back as soon as it see's sunshine and warmth outside..

I have given many a citrus a chance like that and ever so grateful I did.In fact, I tend to pick up abused ones for 5 bucks at the end of season and get them back on track..It's kind of fun to see the difference and results with good cultural practices I have learned..

A good mix, porous at that, warm sun, good fertilizer and keeping an eye on your watering practices and pests will always work..

Please, let the citrus grow by itself and I'll bet it will amaze you..
I the spring switch to a plastic pot if you use to exposing that tree to cooler temps, more than warm or hot.

MIke

I'm going to pull the Boxwood Basil out of the pot (the Romaine Lettuce has already been yanked, check the pH, adjust with the blue bag from Home Depot (Organic Sulfur I think). Any advise on the use of Organic Sulfur to try to get the soil acidity back to what the IML likes?

Charlie

Ok Mike, you talked me into it!

I did end up buying a second healthy IML, but mixed up a new batch of 5-1-1, carefully made sure it had a pH of 5.5-6 (hard to tell exactly with an analog meter like the cheap one I have), repotted the companion plants in new pots and brought my first IML downstairs to the shade for some quiet recovery time. Thanks everyone for the pH advise!

I'll follow up if anything changes with pics, promise!

Awesome! Please keep us updated..Wait until you can expose it to full sun and much warmer temps...

I am not sure about the sulfur thing...I usually just use vinegar in my watering solution and I am good to go:-)

Mike

Would someone be so kind as to post a link to Al's 5-1-1 and gritty mixes? I've been searching for it but it's mentioned so often that I'm getting too many hits to sort through. Thanks in advance.

I will give you the link below. I encourage you to read Al's whole opening explanation to understand why he makes the mixes they way he does. But, here are the recipes quoted directly from that post:

The 5:1:1 mix:

5 parts pine bark fines, dust - 3/8 (size is important
1 part sphagnum peat (not reed or sedge peat please)
1-2 parts perlite (coarse, if you can get it)
garden lime (or gypsum in some cases)
controlled release fertilizer (if preferred)

Big batch:
2-3 cu ft pine bark fines
5 gallons peat
5 gallons perlite
2 cups dolomitic (garden) lime (or gypsum in some cases)
2 cups CRF (if preferred)

Small batch:
3 gallons pine bark
1/2 gallon peat
1/2 gallon perlite
4 tbsp lime (or gypsum in some cases)
1/4 cup CRF (if preferred)

I have seen advice that some highly organic (practically speaking - almost all container soils are highly organic) container soils are productive for up to 5 years or more. I disagree and will explain why if there is interest. Even if you were to substitute fir bark for pine bark in this recipe (and this recipe will long outlast any peat based soil) you should only expect a maximum of two to three years life before a repot is in order. Usually perennials, including trees (they're perennials too) should be repotted more frequently to insure they can grow at as close to their genetic potential within the limits of other cultural factors as possible. If a soil is desired that will retain structure for long periods, we need to look more to inorganic components. Some examples are crushed granite, fine stone, VERY coarse sand (see above - usually no smaller than BB size in containers, please), Haydite, lava rock (pumice), Turface, calcined DE, and others.

For long term (especially woody) plantings and houseplants, I use a superb soil that is extremely durable and structurally sound. The basic mix is equal parts of screened pine bark, Turface, and crushed granite.

The gritty mix:

1 part uncomposted screened pine or fir bark (1/8-1/4")
1 part screened Turface
1 part crushed Gran-I-Grit (grower size) or #2 cherrystone
1 Tbsp gypsum per gallon of soil (eliminate if your fertilizer has Ca)
CRF (if desired)

I use 1/8 -1/4 tsp Epsom salts (MgSO4) per gallon of fertilizer solution when I fertilize if the fertilizer does not contain Mg (check your fertilizer - if it is soluble, it is probable it does not contain Ca or Mg. If I am using my currently favored fertilizer (I use it on everything), Dyna-Gro's Foliage-Pro in the 9-3-6 formulation, and I don't use gypsum or Epsom salts in the fertilizer solution.

Here is a link that might be useful: Container Soils - Water Movement and Retention XVIII

This post was edited by Ohiofem on Thu, Mar 20, 14 at 16:39

THANK YOU! Ohiofem. Thanks for the recipe and further info. That's a good start.I have a lot to learn. I've got a one year old Meyer lemon (delivered last fall) and I am expecting delivery of a three year old Eureka in early April (when it's warm enough to ship) and I'd like to prepare for the delivery. There is so much information on these forums to absorb.I may be growing them on a wing and a prayer.

HELP! I purchased this potted lemon tree about 2 months ago. I found a microscopic looking snail on the leaves 2 days in a row.

Some of the new tiny lemons are turning black and falling off. Is this normal due to the pot size and overgrowth of lemons?

The leaves have a yellowish tint in spots as shown and a couple of the leaves are curling (they have brown underside that I have cleaned with soap and water).

Some of the leaves that have dropped off at the base of the trunk and look to have been eaten and left just the skeleton.

I fertilized it in May with Espoma Citrus Tone 5-2-6 and also have used Neptune Fish and Seaweed Fertilizer 2-3-1 in June.

I have not repotted the plant because i did not want it to go into shock and loose the lemons before the harvest so I was waiting until the end of the summer since I live in NJ.

I was going to put a copper wire around the trunk of the plant and put a dish of beer to attract the snails.

Any other advice is much appreciated since "Lotta Lemon" is my baby! Thankyou

The Lemons won't be ripe at the end of the Summer, so you should have re-potted in the Spring. Most Citrus ripen in the Winter.

The tree looks fine although it needs a better fertilizer recommendation. Review this Thread and you'll find every answer to your questions.

Josh

Josh is right. Many of the answers to your question are in this very post. You can also find lots of info about growing citrus in the citrus forum, which is very active. But, I want to address the question of the possible snail problem. The dish of beer and copper will only keep snails and slugs out of the pot, but they and their off spring may already be in the pot. Get some Sluggo Slug and Snail Bait. It's cheap, it's safe, it's offten sold at big box stores and it is much more effective than other things, like saucers of beer. Just sprinkle it on the soil surface in your pot.

Here is a link that might be useful: Citrus Forum on Gardenweb

Good points, Jen.
My poor little Meyer Lemon was terribly set back when the new growth was eaten by slugs, snails, or earwigs. Twice. Nearly exhausted the plant.

So I took a piece of copper wire and wrapped it around the base of the trunk. Not sure if it was totally responsible, but I haven't had a problem in the years since.

I second the Sluggo recommendation.

Josh

Thank you so much for the advice!!

hello, I have read through the thread several times - I'm glad for the information, I will use it to help keep my meyer lemon alive (my first plant so I've got my fingers crossed!).

I have some leaves dropping over the last few days, more than I think I should see. I just received the tree 12 days ago so maybe this is normal. I check the soil regularly for it's dryness and I'm not sure if I should let it dry completely out - or keep it moist. I am also spraying the leaves with a dilution of Foliage Pro (9-3-6) every 4 days or so.

I'm in NH so I purchased a grow light and have been trying to keep my tree warm. Hopefully I'm doing ok!! Comments please (if you wouldn't mind imparting knowledge)!

Hi ambene, im in ma. Try to not keep the soil moist. Some fantastic tips on this thread already. I'm also going through them myself.