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levu_ww

Transplanting Sage Bush into container

levu-ww
9 years ago

How do I correctly transfer a Sage bush growing outside into a container. I've got to do it this week, mid Oct in Zone 6a.

Do I have to root prune? Prune vegetative growth to size plant for container?

How do I overwinter. The container can live outside on a south-east facing balcony or indoors. Which is the better option?

Comments (12)

  • gardenper
    9 years ago

    It depends on how big your plant and container are. I did a similar action in late spring. I took a huge 3-4 foot sage plant with about 6 main branches, and put it into a pot.

    Since I knew that sage plants are pretty hardy but still want to give it a good chance to regrow, I also took that opportunity to cut out several main branches, down to 3. It would take some time to re-establish in the pot, along with its lost root system, so I took that entire bush down to about 2 feet tall also. Having lost so many of its branches an leaves, it did look a bit worrisome there for a while, but as the summer progressed, it began putting out new roots and leaves just fine.

    If your sage plant has been doing well outside in your winters, then I think out on your balcony is OK. If you get worried about it for a particularly cold spell, you may still be able to cover it and protect it.

  • Embothrium
    9 years ago

    As far as shrub survival is concerned the only advantage to top reduction is reduction of moisture loss through leaves. Otherwise top reduction reduces ability to respond to transplanting, shrubs are integrated systems just like we are - amputation does not increase ability to grow after transplanting, quite the opposite.

    If root loss is liable to result in top death in a particular instance, due to moisture loss through transpiration most or all of the leaves have to be removed before too much water goes out the stomata to prevent shriveling.

  • levu-ww
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Could I fix the transpiration issue by covering the potted bush with a clear garbage bag?

  • Embothrium
    9 years ago

    Do you think you are going to be able to get an intact root ball on it, so that the top doesn't wilt? If so then you won't have to bother about the top.

    Here's what I would do, if it were me: I would either just dig it up and pot it, keep it well watered for awhile - or if it is too big to lend itself to this I would just buy a new one next year.

    Especially if it is not a rare one but rather one of the common and inexpensive types (are you asking about a Salvia or an Artemisia?).

    One important factor is that if the ground the plant is in now is not as light and aerated as potting soil is watering will have to be very carefully managed after the specimen is potted up.

  • gardenper
    9 years ago

    bboy has a good suggestion, but at the same time, I'd like to suggest that you don't actually have to hope and wish for the spring to get a new plant.

    I think sage lends itself very well to growing from cuttings or other kind of propagation. You could have a clone of your beloved sage plant.

    Once you are familiar with that, in case you haven't grown from cuttings before, or once you realize how easy it is to grow more sage this way, you'll be in a happy place and can have more sage plants all over your property.

    So when pruning your sage plants, either for their look or for a transplant operation, consider that those cuttings are the beginnings of a new plant, as opposed to becoming trash or compost.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    9 years ago

    I would lift the plant from the ground, bare root and prune roots hard, keeping the roots moist as I work. Repot into a very fast draining soil
    {{gwi:1295}}
    and keep the soil moist. Wait 2 weeks and dose with a fertilizer with an appropriate NPK ratio (RATIO is different than NPK %s).

    Neither over-wintering option is good, unless the plant is listed as hardy to z4, in which case you're prolly safe keeping the plant on the balcony. Do you know the Latin binomial name for your plant so we can get an idea of how hardy it might be? The indoor over-winter idea won't fly. The plant will perform poorly in the next growth cycle, and likely collapse completely, w/o a cold winter rest. If you had a friend with a north balcony, you could put the plant in an opaque storage container and situate it so the open end of the container is against the outside wall of the building. That would keep the temp inside the box several *s above ambient temps.

    Al

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    9 years ago

    I would leave it outside., worse case it dies back, but will regrow. I was thinking of using protection but it appears many who have overwintered outside found no benefit. So leave it be. Sage is hardy to zone 5! If you put it in a container I would protect it on the balcony. If you used a fabric bag, you could probably do nothing but water it to keep it from completely drying out. You could use chicken wire or hardware cloth and surround pot, fill with leaves to protect base, not sure you need to? As long as it has overhead protection. If rained on, a normal pot will crack, A fabric bag would breath and dry out.
    It may not make it if exposed to all elements. Keep close to building for warmth. I overwinter in an unheated garage. It often freezes in there, but is a lot warmer than outside. I have zone 7 plants that do well. I'm in 5b/6a. I water them around once a month.

    This post was edited by Drew51 on Thu, Oct 16, 14 at 7:43

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    9 years ago

    Trying to "insulate" the container w/o an extraneous heat source is not protection. All the insulation does is slow the rate of temperature change. It doesn't affect the important factor, which is the killing low temp. Adding insulation is like putting a Dixie cup of water in an insulated box and putting it in a freezer. It will take longer, but the water (ice) will eventually be the same temp as everything else in the freezer. The floor of the balcony isn't a significant source of extraneous heat, like the floor of an unheated garage would be, but the perimeter building wall IS. It would be MUCH more effective to use an uninsulated box and utilize the heat coming through the wall than waste energy adding insulation where there is no extraneous heat source.

    "Hardy to z5 means hardy to z5 IN THE GROUND, not hardy to z5 in a container. Z5 plants in protected containers, buried in the ground or against a heated building, in an unheated garage, .... are hardy in zone 6, but unprotected containers would have to be hardy to z4 to be considered hardy in z6 w/o protection.

    Al

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    9 years ago

    I agree Al, about the 2 zone thing, but the idea of the leaves is not for cold protection, so you're wrong there.
    Why do they call strawberries Straw-berries? Because you need to maintain a constant temperature to overwinter. So you cover them with straw ONCE frozen. Same here! The idea of the leaves is to maintain the temp as it's fluctuations that kill plants. Horticulture 101.
    This works extremely well, people overwinter figs, sensitive plants like west coast blackberries very well covering them with leaves, pine straw, or straw.
    I would do this for sure on a south facing balcony as the sun is going to warm it everyday. Without this the plant will not make it! You want to keep the plant cold, not warm. Do what you say may work, but if the heat source is not good at night, again the plant may die. The plant can take temps to -15 degrees, so best keep it cold, not warm! I would cover the whole plant. But even just the pot would be better than nothing. I overwinter blackberries and strawberries like this. If I don't cover them, the strawberies die, and the blackberry will live but lose all floricanes. I have seen this happen. It works really well, quite amazing.
    Btw I don't do this to plants in the garage. Only to those outside. No protection needed using that method. What you suggest would work too, much like what my garage does. Levu can decide what he thinks will work best in his situation. So either try to keep it constantly warm, or constantly cold. As far as the 2 zone, well that may make either method fail, but worth a try. I myself think it's a lot easier to keep the plant cool than warm. The leaves will stop the sun from warming it up. But who knows if the building is warm enough?
    The best option is the leave it where it is. It will do fine in the ground.

    This post was edited by Drew51 on Thu, Oct 16, 14 at 8:52

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    9 years ago

    I myself think the 2 zone rule does apply at times, but a plant unprotected in a pot, outside will not survive even if rated to Zone 1. The pot will crack, the freeze-thaw all winter will kill all plants.An exception is using fabric, and maybe the gritty mix? I have heard this works, but I have yet to try it. Next year I will be growing some herbs in pots, and will see if they live with no protection in fabric. Hope it does, it would make things a lot easier! I'm getting tired of protecting pots! The less I have to do the better! Currently my garage is full, has been for years, so many have to winter outside.
    OK, I'm outta here for ten days to cut up 2 one hundred foot trees that fell on my property on Russell island. The trees there are massive! 10 days just me and the dogs, I'm looking forward to it! No cars are allowed on the island, you have to rent a barge to bring them over. One bar! It's like Mackinac island except it is all private. The bar is a private club. No public facilities at all. No water, or natural gas, just electricity. Here are some trees from the island.
    An ash, the borers took out. that's my wife.{{gwi:51685}}

    Here's a white oak that took a house with it. The house was condemned and removed. If you look closely you can see my wife and dog on the right.
    {{gwi:51686}}

    I had the upper 1/3 of a maple tree taken off, as it threatened to fall on my place. The tree is alive and well. Biggest "heading" cut I ever made! :)
    {{gwi:51687}}

    Good luck with your sage. Please keep us updated in the spring!! OK, see ya all!

    This post was edited by Drew51 on Thu, Oct 16, 14 at 10:13

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    9 years ago

    Plants can freeze every night and thaw every day, all winter long, without harm, as long as the roots aren't subjected to killing low temps. Temperate plants don't die because the soil freezes solid, or even because intercellular water freezes solid. They die when intracellular water freezes - the water inside of cells. Strawberries don't need and don't get a constant temperature. They need their roots warm enough to remain above killing low temperatures.

    A south balcony is a poor place to over-winter anything temperate. Pots dormant plants in quiescence will be stimulated to growth by several days of soil temps in the mid-upper 40s. Once the initiation of growth occurs, the plant loses almost all resistance to temps below freezing, so it's best to keep them shaded on the N side of a building, or somewhere cold that won't be influenced by solar heat gain.

    I over-winter LOTs of plants in ceramic pots - outdoors, and they do just fine. I probably left 30 junipers, pines, larch, bittersweet, and a few other plants on a grow bench above ground on the N side of my garage without a loss or broken pot. I'm not saying pots won't break - they do, but a broken pot isn't what kills plants any more than freeze/thaw cycles are.

    Al

  • levu-ww
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    bboy, gardenper:

    > or if it is too big to lend itself to this I would just buy a new one next year. Especially if it is not a rare one but rather one of the common and inexpensive types (are you asking about a Salvia or an Artemisia?).

    I don't know what type it is, I'll find out tomorrow. The bush belongs to a friend who is going to throw it away. I would really like to have fresh herbs on hand, so I offered to adopt the plant. I'm new to gardening, not familiar with propagating cuttings, and want a productive herb plant.

    tapla:

    > Repot into a very fast draining soil

    I read that as a recommendation for the gritty mix. Will the gritty mix work for thai chili and chives as well?

    > dose with a fertilizer with an appropriate NPK ratio (RATIO is different than NPK %s)

    I have Miracle-GRO All Purpose 24-8-16. It contains trace amounts of B, Cu, Fe, Mn, Mo, Zn. Will this work?

    > Do you know the Latin binomial name for your plant so we can get an idea of how hardy it might be?

    I have not seen the plant yet. I'll find out tomorrow.

    > The indoor over-winter idea won't fly. The plant will perform poorly in the next growth cycle, and likely collapse completely, w/o a cold winter rest. If you had a friend with a north balcony, you could put the plant in an opaque storage container and situate it so the open end of the container is against the outside wall of the building. That would keep the temp inside the box several *s above ambient temps.

    > A south balcony is a poor place to over-winter anything temperate. Pots dormant plants in quiescence will be stimulated to growth by several days of soil temps in the mid-upper 40s. Once the initiation of growth occurs, the plant loses almost all resistance to temps below freezing, so it's best to keep them shaded on the N side of a building, or somewhere cold that won't be influenced by solar heat gain.

    I read that as:
    "The plant needs to hibernate for 3 months. Vegetative growth during winter low-light will sap the energy reserves of the plant and make it sick. Plant will die upon exposure to bright light/hight heat in the spring (transpiration stress)."

    requirements -- solutions:
    Maintain constant light level to prevent growth in winter -- opaque container blocks all light
    Hold soil temp above 32 and below 45 -- trap heat in an enclosed airspace, use residual heat from building

    Can I simulate a North balcony by staging a square spot on my SE balcony, blocking all light with a tarp and insulating with straw? That will reduce warming due to sun exposure. The ambient air temp will be the same on both a N and SE balcony.

    How often do I need to water the plant if it does not get any light?

    Ben