I, myself, try to use only unglazed clay pots. I believe them to be healthier for a plant's roots. The majority of my container plants are grown indoors.

I'm curious to learn the science behind everyone's decision... is it because of climate/growing environment? Does the medium you use play a role in your choice? How about watering, feeding? Indoor, outdoor? Plant type?

I'm interested because I know some prefer plastic... and for me, they simply don't work... so I want to know what everyone feels is the best pot, and why.

Al

Check out this article comparing interior temperatures on an unglazed clay flower pot vs a glazed clay flower pot vs a plastic flower pot... Big temperature differences. Very illustrative article for me. Gas permeable materials are the way to go assuming you can keep up with watering.

My container holy grail is to find a way to make a cheap (<$10) 10-15 gallon sub-irrigated planter made out of a gas-permeable material. I've been looking at curved clay roofing tiles that are common here in Spain, but a) I'm not sure if I can find unglazed roofing tile, and b) it seems everyone's roof is moving to plastic or metal these days. If anyone can think of a way to make it happen (I don't know much about hypertufa, for example), I'm all ears. Maybe this would even merit a new major version number on raybo's tainer guide. v3.0? :)

> For my outdoor plants terra cotta is not an option since they would probably crack or shatter during the cold winter months.

> I recycle our existing plastic containers since we have quite a few of them already.

> I drill holes in the container sides to help add air circulation in the soil mix and its easier to add holes in plastic pots over terra cotta.

Al's probably right that terra cotta is better but for my outdoor plants plastic is a better option. For indoor plants I use terra cotta.

I also use clay on all big pots..I actually drill slits from the bottom up on them, and make the hole on the bottom bigger, blocking it with screen to create even further drainage.
Some clay and some plastic on my little ones..Plastic for the "growers convenience"...

What Al says confirms the great benefit of using clay. I just assumed clay was better without the science behind it, just seeing my plants dry out more rapidly than in plastic, was enough for me..

Don't foget though, many think that plants can be almost resistant to root rot in these, but not so. My nursery told me it is almost impossible to overwater in clay, which is another reason why I used them. P.s.
I killed a many in clay pots before learning from here..lol.
The right "soiless mix" with terracota, makes for a wonderful combination for my plants!

Still a great question that can never be asked too many times...;-). A good lesson for us all, and always interesting..Who the heck has time now a days to keep looking for old threads "everytime" they want to come here anyway? No opologies needed..

Thanks Jodik!

I live in the soon to be frozen wasteland known as MI, and I have almost all the material (75%, at least) I'm growing on for bonsai in terra-cotta, + LOTS of other plantings - just because it makes that much difference. Old terra cotta with that crusty patina rocks.

My pool, viewed today through the LR window:

Al

Thanks for the pic!

Maybe your place won't live up to a "frozen wasteland" this time around, if we have a mild winter to make up for the lack of summer we had,or I had..lol
You would be so lucky ha..

Mike..;-)

On the topic of pots, the reason I ask is because someone in the forum I discuss my bulbs in, said they prefer plastic over unglazed clay because, and I quote...

"Jodic, you're saying that salt and harmful chemicals´ diffuse from the inside to the outside. I read in other forums that exactly this is not a good thing because the roots then tend to grow in the direction of the nutrients which also diffuse in the direction of the exterior.
Because of that the roots tend to grow just along the internal of the clay pots and secondly because of the higher salt concentration there the roots can be damaged.
If you don't take a plastic pot that's too high and if you're using an porous medium I don't think that the roots suffer from too less oxygen ..."

My immediate thought was that the soil he's using is not porous and aerated enough, and his bulbs' roots are frantically searching for oxygen... growing toward the sides and surface of the pot where a source of air would be.

About a year ago, the medium du jour for some of the bulb lovers was cocopeat. It was supposed to resist decomposing, etc... I gave it a shot, but found it to be even more collapsible than peat based potting mix, such as is sold in the US. One of the issues was finding coco products that had been pre-rinsed enough to remove the salt present from some processing of the product. Anyhow, I suspect that the grower in question may be using cocopeat with a layer of hydroton, or a similar product, underneath for "drainage" purposes.

I wish I had run across you guys before I wasted my time, a few of my bulbs, and the money for a bale of the cocojunk.

Anyway... thanks for all of your responses. As I suspected, plastic is more about convenience and aesthetics, and less about the health of the plant.

BTW, the quote you left from the guy you were discussing container materials with leaves me with the distinct feeling he's all mixed up & is missing some of the key science that would have truncated his line of reasoning somewhere near the beginning ..... but don't tell him I said that. ;o) Go back & straighten him out - he needs you!

YPA

Great thread Jodik!

My home in winter is extremely dry (8-15% humidity). My time is limited and most plants get watered once a week. Plants which like to dry out completely are in clay or open baskets. Even they will suffer from the dry air and once a week watering.

I find clay very difficult to use indoors in zone 5. If you are not careful with watering and humidity the plants will suffer. I love clay for summertime. I move most plants in clay pots inside plastic for winter. I put the clay pot inside a slightly larger plastic pot to prevent root dry-out. I find this a very effective method to carry those plants potted in clay through the winter.

It's important to understand your conditions and the amount of time you can give to observation and watering. Either type of pot can kill a plant. You need to work with the conditions your plants are growing in.

Jane

Clay is not difficult to use, but it does require more time and commitment devoted to watering. I understand if someone can't/won't make that commitment, but that doesn't change the fact that using plastic is for the grower's convenience or arises out of something other than trying to maximize plant vitality, because the plant would much prefer being in clay and getting watered as frequently as required to keep it happy. For some of us, plastic is a necessity to extend watering intervals, but it's still a compromise. Better gas exchange in the rhizosphere (root zone) and more frequent watering just yields healthier plants. We can see this clearly in the number of people on this and other forums who are using highly aerated soils.

I often note, quite apart from this particular conversation, that more often than not, grower convenience and peak vitality in our plants are mutually exclusive. This just happens to be one of those times.

Al

As for big outdoor planters, once again I'm not crazy about clay, heavy and costly in the large sizes. That 'grower convenience' issue.

I guess it just makes sense that plant would 'prefer' terra cotta to plastic ( there may be some exceptions, Sarracenia? ) but personally, I haven't had any issues growing in plastic that I could attribute to the pot.

Back to pots... I tend to agree, Al. I think that if the medium is porous ENOUGH, the roots won't be growing toward the sides and surface of a pot... unless their natural root growth habit is that shallow. But even so, the growth habit wouldn't send them toward the sides of a pot unless there were a problem.

If you're feeding your plants enough, they're not going to go off in search of food, either. I've never known a potted plant to grow roots in a particular direction, looking for a food source.

Orchids are a whole different animal... the majority being epiphytes... so their growth habits will be different regardless of pot type. With orchids, I think you have to take your growing environment into consideration even more... there are other things to consider, such as pot temperature. Clay tends to become rather chilly when wet, during winter. Some orchids are sensitive to this, some not. Windowsills are chilly places during winter... in the north.

Time is a big factor... but I've learned that you can't force a once a week watering schedule on all plants. They just won't thrive. Each plant type has its own needs, so while my orchids might want water once every few days, my bulbs might be happy with watering once every two weeks, or thereabouts. But I don't go by a "schedule"... I go by an individual pot check. I have the time to devote.

Orchids aside, most terrestrial plants grow roots toward a water source... down. And I WANT my plants to dry out relatively fast. Bulbs don't like wet conditions, so a very porous medium in a clay pot works best for me.

Aesthetics have never played a role for me... I don't judge anything by its cover... luckily, I like how unglazed clay looks, especially as it ages.

I have a few orchids... and for them, I use mostly plastic... purely from a pot temperature standpoint. But then again, most are in orchid bark, not Al's Mix. Big difference.

So... when it comes right down to it... plastic versus clay for most plants is mainly a matter of convenience.

Great responses, everyone... thank you!

I did respond to the person I quoted, Al... you'd be surprised at how often I include links to your articles! The gardener in question is in Germany, I believe, and is a "student" of a very respected bulb grower. He grows his bulbs a lot differently than I do, but he manages to get very good results... according to his photos and posts, that is. His methods include different layers of mediums, which I now know creates perched water tables... which can be detrimental in the long run.

I always hate to ruffle the feathers of those who are respected like that... but I'm sure I have. The internet, and especially public forums, can contain so much poor information... it's difficult to sort through it all, looking for the truth. I'm just glad that I stumbled into THIS forum!

The discussions, here, on mediums and pots and watering... and the relationships thereof... are logical, and have science to back them up. The proof is in the healthy plants, which begin under the medium, at the roots.

And as we all know, more plants are killed by improper watering than by any other one thing. I'm rambling, but what I'm trying to say is... if you're serious about growing the best plants, it pays to learn about proper watering, and to learn about plants from the roots up!

Al

A year or two ago we bought some nice shrubs and they came in nice white plastic containers. You rarely see anything in a white container as they are usually green or black! We saved the containers and I plan to use them next spring when I pot up. They should help reflect sunlight and heat, I hope.

I have a few pets..And they sell these watering dishes that makes you not have to give fresh water for days. But the chances of them getting parasites from old water is very likely. So for the health of my pets, I make the time to give fresh water daily, and walk right past these at the pet stores...

My pants I view the same. If I have to give fresh water daily, to do what is best for their vitality, then I will find the time to do so, or rid most of them to free up my time taking care of them too, before I stick them in unbreathable pots that make my life easier, from not having to water for days.

For me, I do what's best for the plants needs, and not mine. So much for looking for decorative pots! They are either glazed, ceramic, or plastic..:-(. Clay doesn't look so bad after all. Those black plastic nursery ones I haven't had time to change my plants out of do..lol

Does this illustration sound dumb to some, I suppose, and I don't care. Makes sense to me though...lol

Great thread.

Thanks "Jodik", for everything. I am learn alot from you, especially on this one..:-)

Maybe I should take a spelling coarse!

Most of what we grow outdoors is in beds or raised beds, and I don't really have time to care for a ton of potted outdoor plants every year. However, I do have several plants that make the trip from the basement to the garden every spring and fall... mostly tender plants that I like, such as Crinum, a banana tree, variegated Society Garlic, and a few other tender items.

I've got a Japanese Maple in a large plastic pot, and a grouping of Wisteria Vine youngsters all twisted together, also in plastic. It was a matter of convenience at the time... I really should find some nice clay pots for them, and get them into better medium! A project for next spring!

It's taken me most of my adult life to figure out exactly how to best care for my potted plants... and I'm still learning! I think gardening... any type of gardening... is a lifelong process of education, trial and error, and successes... it's a love for growing things that keeps us at it.

Al, I feel like a soil preacher sometimes... I'm constantly linking to your article on Container Soils - Water Movement and Retention, and other threads that go into the same subjects... I feel like I'm helping, though... there are so many people out there that fall into the growing ideals that the retail industry has laid out as "the way". But we know that the retail industry of pretty much everything is based on profit margin, and not what's really best.

To make a long post short... I feel like I'm actually getting somewhere... a lot of people are beginning to rethink how they grow their bulbs and other container plants. Al's Mix has taken on a life of its own!

So sorry on my part..

A very embarresed me...

Mike

I have a busy life, work full time and have too many plants to keep a daily watch over. It isn't a matter of can't/won't make the commitment. It is a matter of priorities in my life.

I have beautiful large dirt plants and over 300 orchids which I have been selling off. I am moving and can't take them all. My trees are old and glorious. I believe the biggest mistake people make is over-watering. Grow your plants drier and it doesn't matter what type pot you use as long as it drains well.

Clay does not work well in a dry, heated home. The sides dry out too fast and the roots die. In humid conditions, the sides retain moisture drawing roots to cling and then dry out. It is not practical to use clay with my winter conditions. The evaporation rate is to high.

Al, I appreciate your knowledge and experience, but my plants do well with my methods in my conditions.I believe they could only be happier if they were in the ground. It is a matter of my convenience because the only alternative would be to grow nothing. I have found what works for me and am pleased with the results.

Jane

I'm not judging how you (or anyone else) grow your plants. There are containers I could grow in made of materials other than clay, that are superior to clay, but I rarely use them. I freely admit that I could do better by my plants if I was willing to make a greater time commitment to them, but I have a life, too .... I sometimes even resent the amount of attention that they require as it is.

That said, I don't think we could really say we grow the way we do because it's a matter of prioritization, and then turn and say that it's not because we can't or won't go the extra mile (make the commitment). When priorities other than our plants take precedence, and we use a plastic container to extend the intervals between watering, knowing that a clay pot and more frequent watering would be healthier for the plant, we are sacrificing potential vitality in our plants on the altar of convenience. We're all guilty of it, not just you and I.

This discussion hinges on a fine point, I know, but I'm not willing to give up the point that your choice (and mine, even growing in clay) is based on your convenience and not on maintaining cultural conditions as close to ideal as possible.

If I was a fireman and worked 3-4 days straight, I would choose to grow in plastic to extend the intervals between watering because I would have to if I wanted to maintain plants; but, that doesn't change the fact or stop me from freely admitting that it is a compromise and not what's best for my plants. I could drive across town on my lunch hour every day to water, but my priorities don't allow it, so I compromise, knowing that clay and the extra commitment would assuredly be a better choice.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but maybe something like, "I know that if I had the time and inclination to stick to a watering regimen that allowed me to grow in clay or some other gas permeable container, that my plants could be more robust, but I cannot afford to devote that amount of time, so I choose to grow in plastic."

For me, I can say that "I know I could do better if I was growing in containers with screened sides, but I'm not willing to commit to building them, nor am I willing to clean up the mess that accompanies their use indoors, so I'll hope my plants do the best they can within the parameters of the cultural conditions I'm willing (not able) to supply."

BTW, Your idea that "The sides dry out too fast and the roots die. In humid conditions, the sides retain moisture drawing roots to cling and then dry out. It is not practical to use clay with my winter conditions. The evaporation rate is to high." is only true if you don't water frequently enough. Plants absorb water readily in gaseous form, so roots don't die unless the soil is dry. Also, if roots are terminated at the container perimeter, it simply forces finer root breaks back inside the root mass. This is actually quite beneficial and is the theory behind air pruning. Also, high evaporation rates are actually a plus. They force us to water more frequently which helps ensure greater gas exchange in the rizosphere. ...... and if roots are accumulating at the pot perimeter, the plant is rootbound or the soil too water retentive, which means there is not enough gas exchange in the rootzone.

Al

I found this forum and was contemplating your 'mix' for my large dirt plants. They will require repotting in the spring with some drastic pruning. I have decided against using it because I do not want them to dry out too quickly. I don't want the weight. I will play with a mixture based on what I have on hand (which is alot.) Because I repot every few years, I am not concerned about break down of the media. Too many variable involved in growing. Each must be manipulated to fit your conditions and lifestyle. Pot type is the least important to me. Light, water, food then media and pot. With good light, you can grow in a shoe.

You ARE putting words in my mouth ........
"I don't want to put words in your mouth, but maybe something like, "I know that if I had the time and inclination to stick to a watering regimen that allowed me to grow in clay or some other gas permeable container, that my plants could be more robust, but I cannot afford to devote that amount of time, so I choose to grow in plastic."

I don't feel that way and never said that. You think I am, but I assure you I am not. This is silly, you may live in Z5, but your house is not mine. You can't compare your environment to mine. Same zone, different conditions. I'm not getting into that, I would not grow in clay. I grow some orchids in clay, but most are either mounted or growing in baskets-the rest in plastic pots. I have devised methods to manage the desert conditions in winter without having to water every day. It works for me and my lifestyle...no excuses necessary. Less water is better, plastic is better...for me.

To each his own.

Jane

It is so simple..You said it.

"plastic is better for "me"..

But, it is not better for our plants..:-(

That is the point of this whole discussion..There is nothing to argue.

Mike...:-)

I've grown lots of material in shoes before. I often plant houseleeks, thyme, sedum ..... in yard sale shoes and give them away as gifts. People LOVE them. I think one of the main reasons plants grow so well in them is because the leather is gas permeable. ;o)

I don't think that less water is better, but I can agree that the right amount of water is best. A very porous soil that requires frequent watering will in virtually every case produce a more robust plant than those in more water-retentive soils, the negative effects of which is exacerbated by plastic pots. It is far easier to ensure plants are getting the 'right amount' of water by frequent watering of plants in porous soils than it is to try to micro-manage a more water retentive soil/pot combination.

Mike is right. The difference in our points of view is that I'm arguing from the plant's perspective and you're arguing from the perspective of what's better for you, which was my point from the outset of this thread. I have no problem acknowledging that plastic is better for YOU and your set parameters, but as Mike notes, it's not better for your plants.

Strong work, Mike. ;o)
Nuff said.

Al

I only directed one paragraph to Al... I just wanted him to know that I keep spreading the word on healthy roots in good medium!

It's not worth arguing about... we will each do what we will do... regardless of what we know.

I'm willing to go the extra mile, and I won't compromise when it comes to the health of my bulbs... I've put too much time and money into them, and I enjoy the rewards of growing them too much to end up with mediocre bloomings because of my own laziness. I've done the research, I've found the information I was looking for, and I'm expending the energy to put that information to use.

I just wanted to see which pot type people used, and why... it was the "why" that interested me the most... the science behind their choice.

We have the information all laid out for us... we know what grows the healthiest roots... what we choose to do with that information is another story, entirely.

This "pot conversation" brings up another interesting point... what constitutes proper watering? We already know that more plants are killed by improper watering than by any other one thing. So, what is "proper watering"?

To me, proper watering means checking the medium within each pot to see if there's moisture, and to what extent... and giving the plant a thorough watering, if needed, until it flows out through the drainage hole at the bottom of the container.

It is said, and with good reason, that proper watering should be the first thing we learn about growing container plants... within the world of bonsai, especially, this is extremely important...

So... how do you all water? And, Mike... please join in! I never meant to exclude anyone!

That is why I am armed with the 3 of the best things in the world for what my plants need, a great soiless mix, my wooden dowels, and my clay pots..lol

Al, :-0)

Have a great weekend evryone here!

I'll copy paste some things from another thread that I often mention when the subject comes up, and I'll embed a link so anyone who wants to can read the whole thread. There really is a LOT of good information in it. It's called ... do you have a 'Watering 101' post somewhere?

In a workshop conducted by bonsai master Ben Oki, one of the other participants asked, "How often should I water this juniper, Mr. Oki"? His reply, in broken English: "Wait until plant become completely dry - then water day before."

I never did figure out if he was serious or not, but the advice was sage. His eyes were twinkling, but he had a straight face, so go figure.

* A generalization - the more often your planting needs water, the healthier the roots and the plant will be, as long as you don't forget to water. The need to irrigate frequently indicates good aeration and drainage, which insures that air is returning to the soil before anaerobic conditions cause the death of fine rootage. Watering also forces old, CO2-rich air, sulfurous gasses, and methane from the soil and pulls O2 rich air in behind it.

* Don't water on a schedule. Water when the rootzone is first dry to the touch. This can mean watering new plantings (shallow roots) when the lower parts of the container are still wet, but for established plantings, water when the soil at the drain hole feels dry - or use the sharpened dowel trick. Your sense of touch registers 'dry soil' when soils are still about 40% saturated. Plants, however, can still extract water from conifer bark and peat down to about 30% saturation - after that, water is held too tightly for plants to access.

* Your soil should allow you to water at every watering so that water drains freely from the drain hole. The best way to water a container is: Wet the soil until you 'feel' the container is about to start draining from the bottom and stop. Wait 10 minutes and add additional water until about 10-15% of the total volume of water applied in both applications exits the drain hole. The first water allows dissolved solids to dissolve into solution, and the second watering flushes them from the soil.

* If you cannot water as described above w/o risking root rot, your soil is inappropriate. You may be able to correct by adding a wick through the drain hole of the container to remove excess water in the PWT until the planting is mature enough to do it on its own.

Good thread, Jodi.

Al

Do have any idea how many times I thought my plants were beyond dry, for as far as my fingers would go down into a pot, just to shove the dowel in and have it come out wet?
Thank God!

And I am not talking about heavy bagged soiless mixes, nor soils, or soils that are full of composted materials that some are determined to keep subjecting their container plants too. I'm talking about the gritty mix that many here seem to think doesn't hold enough moisture for enough period of time. You'd be suprised, especially if a plant roots grow fast and fills in my containers quickly.

Do you have any idea how many plants I would of killed if I hadn't armed myself with this info? Many I tell you. i almsot gave up on growing anything at all.
I havn't lost one from overwatering since this method was explained and used. Thankyou!

I have 3-4 friends that employed the gritty mix, and the 5.1.1 in clay pots for their favorite plants, gardenias and citrus, that have NEVER been able to grow anything until they read a thread such as the one suggested by the poster above. LOl, they now hate plastic pots, after looking at my plants and seeing the benefits to plants...
They have all agreed that if they were "plants", they would want all the air they could breath underground, if their roots were the foundation for their happy and prosporous lives...lol.

For growers convienance, yes I still have some in plastic, but they are coming out real soon..
I am feeling more and more guilty for these plants that have to look at their counter parts basking in clay in the gritty mix..:-)

Sure the small pots, 4 inch and smaller dry out a bit faster than the larger ones, but keeping up with the watering on these is worth the price I pay for the healthiest plants I can have..
Knowing this is happening, just tells me the roots to my plants are very happy and breathing.. I make the time to care for them and water when needed, because I have too, or I will get rid of them.
I guess it is all about priorities with me, and not grower convienance, if you want your plants to do the best they can be. To be the happiest they can be..

Just rambling...I was bored and besides, this subject also hits close my heart too....

I will never go back to bagged mixes, overwatering, and doing what is convienant to me compared to what is best for my babies..Never.
It is a whole new way of life for my plants, and me, and I think they are just as happy as I..:-)

I hope I havn't offended anyone with what I shared, it is not meant to do that, just to encourage anyone who wants to apply the methods that I have learned to love, and that might be holding back..:-)

Mike...:-)

I can completely understand that not everyone has the time and energy to devote to everything laid out here... lives are busy, and many times, our plants will take a back seat to other aspects of our lives.

Myself, I have the time to devote... so if I grow anything in plastic, or I water improperly, it's due purely to my own laziness... and I readily admit that.

I think it's great to see these issues discussed... there is so much misinformation out there... and so many folks are either unsure, or ready to believe the salespeople at the garden center, thinking they must know what they're talking about... they sell plants. They sell plants, yes... but more often than not, they don't know much about what they sell, let alone how to properly grow it!

I've come to the conclusion that almost everything retail is about profit margin, bottom line. Not very much of it has anything to do with plant health.

For example... all of my adult life, I never thought too much about the fact that a container is completely different than a garden. I've never heard it before... and I've never read it before. But after learning about the science behind it, I know it to be true. Logic and common sense tell me it's true.

And learning about mediums and the right way to water... the same can be said... the science tells me it's right. It makes logical sense.

I'm so glad we constantly go over this stuff! It really makes a difference! Thanks, you guys! This is great conversation! :-)

Al

No doubt ridiculously heavy, but on the bright side — no need to worry about the wind blowing them over. Interesting idea would be to use the longer ones on end to create a tall, non-swc container with not much perched water to speak of, and the easiest caging system ever — drop 3 or 4 long bamboo poles in the holes, and add twine for a support system.

Any fatal flaws in this idea? Figuring out how to seal everything together without having the sealant leech nasty chemicals into my SWC reservoir is the first thing that comes to mind, but there should be a way to make that happen. Just discovered this today, haven't had much chance to think this through.

Al

I said clay is better for plants and offered my reasoning. You said "plastic is better for me and then proceeded to tell us why you won't grow in clay. You're arguing the convenience issue. My original contention was and remains about what is better for 'plants', not what is better for you, the grower, or what you should or shouldn't prefer. It's not a difficult concept because they are clearly delineated.

If you're happy, we're all happy FOR you; but, that doesn't mean that you're not able to do better, and it's ridiculous to think you (or I) can't do better or that we're perfect plant parents. It's that simple. If you and I were willing and able to expend the extra effort it takes to grow in clay or some other container of gas-permeable material, your plants would be even nicer than they are. You can't say 'my plants are nice, therefore they can be no better'. You're simply telling us you're happy with what you've done and choose not to go beyond what you're already doing. It IS a choice and it IS about your convenience.

Al

But I have to ask... why would anyone reading this thread feel guilty?

May I ask a question?

Which is better for you?
Living in an air polluted city even while you are healthy? Or you, living in a place in the world where fresh air is abundant everyday?
Anyone will survive both enviroments. But really, which would you prefer?

Point made..

I don't understand what the problem is here..lol

Why can't certain people get it. I have several friends that don't even grow plants, and they all agree it is just common sense without even have to read this thread....Oh well..;-)

You and jane ny should now understand why there are so few contributors to some of these garden forums. These guys don't care if your plants are healthy and beautiful, you're just not doing it the way they KNOW to be the only scientifically CORRECT way, and that make you and your plants second class. Soon you will learn to just be a "lurker" on these forums and let them have the ONLY say.

*I'm very curious to know what everyone prefers, and why they prefer it... plastic pots or unglazed clay.*

Your intent all along may have been 'What is best for the plants' but thats not what was asked in the first sentence of your OP.
It was Al who reframed your original question ( and from that point defended ) from what do YOU prefer to what does the plant prefer in his first response to your OP. From that, it seems, a tiny tempest has spawned.

JIM

Mike

No one will dispute that a plant can't live without water. Similarly, ask anyone who raises plants for a living and they will tell you that root activity shuts down in high heat. Tomato roots can't get much food when root temperature goes over 85ş. If it's too hot to get food, growth takes a back seat to survival. Don't take it from me, here's a page from a book which talks about the subject.

So why all the fuss? On a blazing hot sunny day, black plastic nursery pots will average +20şF over ambient temperature, while lime-washed clay pots will be as low as -16şF below it. Grab a thermometer and see for yourself, or see the link I posted earlier.

Madrid temperatures stay at 105ş for weeks on end. Forget your plants, think of yourself in that position.
Spend a few hours at 89ş and you might break a sweat.
Spend a few hours at 125ş, and your internal organs will be forced to shut down to keep you alive. Extreme example, but same concept with your plants.

I think that if someone needs to feel perfect, it's a whole lot worse than that person realizing he's not. If someone needs to feel perfect, they need a reality check more. If the realization that someone is not perfect turns them off, then I don't know what to say. None of us are, and I'm certain we all realize that.

I didn't say what I said in this and posts upthread to slight anyone - at any point. I simply said that if you're willing to go the extra mile and water as often as is required, your plants will fare better in clay than in plastic. That you have taken steps to grow in a soil with better aeration and that requires more frequent watering is pretty good proof that (if you could or would) growing in a gas permeable container would further improve your plants' vitality. Some have said they can't/won't make the extra effort, and that is that - there is no judgement involved - I'm in the same boat. I'm talking about clay improving the potential for better vitality and not suggestion you change anything, but you certainly have the option open to you.

We all understand the arguments about what is good or what is best for you, and how we all have to work within our prioritization and with what we have, but what is best for you and me, and how we order our priorities can conflict directly with what is best for the plant. It has to, and it comes full circle to what I said upthread - What is best for the plant and what is best for the grower are more often than not, mutually exclusive.

Al

If people want to plant in gritty mix, which requires you to water everyday - good for you. If you have found a way to grow successfully in a bagged mix - good for you too! These forums are supposed to be about techniques and methods many people use which work and might work for others. Nothing is cut in stone. Growing well in containers is learning how to manipulate your environment to mimic the real thing. Once you learn how to grow in your space, you are a success.

It is unfortunate that obsessive personalities attempt to control, insult and belittle creativity and flexibility which are so necessary for success.

It should not be necessary to become slaves to anything you enjoy - frankly it is unhealthy. When learning anything new, you need to learn the basics. After that you tweak the basics to fit your style, whether its painting, sewing, working on a car, gardening, whatever you enjoy spending your time doing. These are creative pursuits which bring individual pleasure. Your style is yours.

All container growing is for our convenience. Its not a natural environment but plants adapt. I grow orchids indoors in NY. They would prefer to be in Hawaii but I want them to grow and bloom and learned to play with the basics to accomplish that. Are they happy? Who knows! They bloom for me and I am happy - that's what its about. I have Plumeria still blooming since August indoors under a South window. They have been growing and blooming for 5 years in Miracle Gro and plastic nursery containers. Are they happy?..they are beautiful and bloom for me but they would probably be happier in the ground in Hawaii.

You can grow in gritty mix and clay, spend every day watering but without understanding temps and sunlight, you'll have a dead plant. Gritty mix and clay are good things, but not a panacea for healthy growing. Instinct and knowledge of what you grow are.

I don't need to defend myself or my growing style. But I take offense to the insulting, repetitive rants from people who need to feel important and all powerful. And I don't need to be insulted from inexperienced growers who haven't figured out that there is no perfect plant nor growing condition. People growing in hot, humid zones should keep their comments relevant to their conditions and hopefully with more experience will realize their growing experience is different from mine or others in cold, dry climates.

The original question was Plastic vs. Clay. I prefer plastic for certain plants. I only use plastic for my outdoor containers.

One other observation. Why is everyone is running around trying to find the 'perfect' ingredients to make the 'perfect gritty mix??' Take some time off and be a little creative. Put a little moisture retentive material in a course mix and you don't need to water every day. Take the day off and have some fun...play with your kids, take your wife to dinner, go to a movie... your plants won't miss a beat and you might learn something.

Jane

Remember that the forum you're on is the container forum. Finding the right ingredients to make a good mix and figuring out which type of pot is best and why — is the reason this place exists!

The fact is that none of us can do what's best for our plants. Unless you're an eccentric millionaire willing to hire a crack team of botanists and master gardeners and spare no expense, anyway... So while we can't do what's best, we CAN at least learn what is best, and that's why I'm here.

If you're at the level where you don't think you can learn anything by being here, there are plenty of great creative forums out there. I'm partial to the Garden Experiments Forum and the Tips and Tricks Forum.

There's nothing wrong with making compromises, but it is better for everyone when we acknowledge them.

As for the clay vs plastic debate, plastic is an impermeable barrier that impedes necessary gas exchange between the soil and surrounding air. Even though plastic may be a logical and nearly harmless compromise in some situations, it still benefits readers to know that it is a compromise.

If plastic works better for you, tell me WHY. What does it do for your plants that clay doesn't? More to the point, what happens under the soil at the roots that makes your choice of pot the better choice?

In my original post, I asked for the science behind your choice... I want to know why you use what you use... what makes it special for your plants?

"Al and many others here do their best to help people understand what is best for plants from a scientific standpoint. Of course practicality plays a role, and Al himself frequently advises people on how to make acceptable substitutions and compromises to his methods. But if you ignore scientific ideals, you end up with a bunch of anecdotal evidence that can hamper peoples' ability to learn. There are a lot of people on this forum looking for help, and it's much more beneficial to them to understand ideal growing conditions, rather than a set of compromises that have been found to work well for a given person.

There's nothing wrong with making compromises, but it is better for everyone when we acknowledge them.

As for the clay vs plastic debate, plastic is an impermeable barrier that impedes necessary gas exchange between the soil and surrounding air. Even though plastic may be a logical and nearly harmless compromise in some situations, it still benefits readers to know that it is a compromise."

Penfold2 stated it perfectly... that's it exactly.

If I had run into nothing but compromise when I came looking for an education, I'd still be gardening in the dark ages. I'd still be dropping huge amounts of money on bulbs... and losing them to health issues.

I don't want to compromise... I want to learn the best and most logical way to grow healthy container plants. I want to know what's happening under the medium, at the roots. Stuffing them into a nonporous pot filled with mud and drowning them once a week doesn't work for me OR my plants.

Actually, growing in containers means realizing that there's a marked difference between growing in the ground and growing in a contained environment... and mimicking a garden environment means making changes for the things that cannot be exactly duplicated. One of those things is constant aeration.

What I can't figure out is why the same negative people keep interjecting their anger... what is it about a group of happy gardeners that sets you off? If compromise works for you, so be it... but why would you want everyone else to be satisfied with less?

This thread has gone sort of like this:

Jodi asks for input.

Al says clay is better from the plants perspective.

A couple of others argue that plastic is better for THEIR plants.

Al points out that plastic is more convenient for the GROWER and allows the grower to prioritize other commitments, but it is not better for the plant.

Multiple excuses and defensive explanations that were unnecessary because no one really cares what others grow in and that were all offered because they were convenient, but which miss the point entirely - what is best for the plant?

There is NO judgment here, and it doesn't take a lot of humility to admit that what we (all) are doing for our plants IS less than perfect. No one is being singled out.

If you wish to express the opinion that you prefer to grow in plastic and explain why - there is no problem, but, that does not mean it is better for your plants. If you argue against what I said, isn't it logical that I might point to reasoning and science to support my position? What better way to argue than with calm reasoning and solid facts?

If a person is put off when someone points out a fallacious argument or arguments that don't address the point, or miss it entirely, they probably would have been better served if they had their ducks in a row before they entered the discussion. You don't get to make your point by pointing to another and saying he's not arguing fairly because he's only using facts instead of emotion and opinion. If I point to an error in reasoning, why attack me? I'm not the one who made your statements. Simply offer your reasoning and call it a day. Bringing up superfluous point after point only invites the person you're arguing against to show why the points don't hold water or to point to the fact that they are not addressing the original contention.

There should be no reason people cannot argue a point for many posts. That I, or anyone else points to an argument that does not hold water is not a direct attack on the individual, it is simply a part of debate. Emotion and wishing real hard doesn't win debates. In this case, assembling facts and the science that adheres to the topic so the majority can understand the original position and those arguments (that apply) against it is probably much preferred to blaming me for even being here.

If anyone makes a valid argument that is on topic, I can't/won't refute it, if they are logical, I cannot claim a fallacious argument. I don't allow myself the luxury of an opinion w/o the inconvenience of thought, so if I say something, I'm ready to support what say in a matter of fact and unemotional manner. Just like now.

Al

ROUND containers verses SQUARE , which is better.? A new thread? What do you think?

Lol....Just kidding..Imagine what that would start?

I appreciate your determination to prove that clay is better from a "plants" perpsective.. I also appreciate the stand you take for all those plants out there that are MUTE....

Have a good night!

Mike..:-)

You got defensive because you saw my simple answer as a threat. If I can grow in plastic without your gritty mix and have good results, why do you care? If I grew your way all my plants would be dead! That's a fact!

Again, I answered a post politely. Maybe you should all reread what followed. Why did my answer get you all so upset? My goodness, just look at how you all jumped to defend someone you think is god. You all need to loosen up. Life is too short to get so upset over clay pots and gritty mix.

BTW, if you want clay pots, I must have a thousand. They were around long before plastic, if you want some, I'll be happy to ship them off for the price of postage.

Jane

BTW Jane, I think you are missing the point Al is trying to make. You do what you do because it's workable for you. It's what we all do. What is best for the plant is always going to be something different than what is workable for us. The point is to understand what is most beneficial for the plant and then choose an approach that works for us, is manageable for us while taking advantage of our knowledge of what is best for the plant to the extent we can.

As an example, I don't use clay pots. Wood and plastic is what I use. That doesn't mean the gas exchange isn't better in unglazed clay, it is. Well, it may or may not be better than some of the wood pots I have, I really don't know, but certainly it's better than the plastic pots I have.

I know the clay would be better for the plant, but I choose to not use it for my own reasons. Since I know the clay would be a tad healthier for the plant I can make an informed decision. If I didn't know the clay was better I wouldn't be able to weigh the pros and cons and make an informed decision.

Your second reply was kind of snippy, but my reply was still polite, though I think I probably did raise your ire when I pointed to some error in what you had said previous.

Your next reply was very snippy, and my subsequent reply was still very polite, even containing an apology for upsetting you.

Your next post started the name calling and personal attacks, and was very defensive. If you were attacked anywhere in this thread, it wasn't by me, it was by others, and it wasn't because of how you choose to grow your plants, yet you still point directly at me. That smacks of an axe to grind. There were several people who joined with me to try to get you to see a very simple point, but you responded and continue to respond in anger while telling everyone else to loosen up.

I've been a gentleman & not once responded to the name calling and personal insults, so I'm perfectly pleased at your invitation to others to review the thread. I hope that if anyone cares to, they pay particular attention to our discourse because they will find your accusations smoke and mirrors. I think the only thing I'm guilty of is responding directly to another poster, but there's been a whole lot of that flying around.

IF you got ganged up on, it wasn't because of how you grow your plants, or for expressing an opinion, it was because of how you conducted yourself. You'll want the last word, so have it, please. I'd much rather move along to something that produces light instead of heat.

It really is a good thread, Jodi. If any are still following it, they can see that much of our growing success is a product of how much effort you're willing to expend. That effort can be in the form of studying, actual physical effort, time spent in husbandry ....... and that no matter how beautiful we think our plants are, there is always, always room for improvement - if we're willing to make the extra commitment.

Al

Are you serious? If they are uniquely shaped ones, other than the ordinary plain ones they sell at Home Depot, I would gladly pay for some..That is of course if the cost of shipping is no to bad...

Please let me know..

Thankyou!

Thanks:-)

If things which are factually incorrect are not pointed out then this forum becomes a social club with no real educational value.

That's not what I, personally, want. I like the social aspect, but that isn't why I come here. I come here for the educational value that I don't find at most forums where everyone's opinion is equally valid even when it's plainly wrong ;)

my 2 cents

There were other errors in things you state as fact that weren't important - I just let them pass. I don't go looking for things to argue about. I simply said you stated your position from a 'convenience to you' perspective and not from the perspective of what would be better for the plant. If you think that your plants would NOT be better off in clay and more frequent watering, you are wrong, and I'm not the only one that sees that. The simple fact is that you are not willing to go through that extra effort - per your own words. No one judges you for that because we're all in that boat with you, but everyone else in the boat realizes they are not perfect - including me.

I never, ever try to strong-arm anyone into doing anything my way, Jane. If you follow any of the threads I participate in, you can see that plainly. I often don't participate in threads where a person makes statements in the beginning about how they want to do things a certain way, simply because I don't want to be perceived as trying to change someones mind. You're way off base here. No one is preventing you from having fun. You don't have to continue to point out what a bad person I am, you're being repetitive in that regard.

People come to this forum most often to LEARN. It's usually a very happy and peaceful and friendly place, and there is a LOT of information exchanged. There are compliments to this forum all the time, stating what a great and friendly place it is. I could carry the thought forward, but I won't. I'll just point out that I've never been nasty to you, and it was not me that tried to take this conversation down the nasty trail, and I'm still not going to go there.

Al

Actually, while looking at the pics of my deck I posted I've become quite ashamed of myself. All you can see is the CHEAP CHEAP plastic pots that I have used for years.

Actually when I looked at the picture of your beautiful deck/plants I didn't even notice the pots.

And if a person is looking for a convenient way to container garden, Al's Mix and clay pots will not be satisfactory... this, I can promise you.

But top shelf container gardening isn't about convenience... it's about constantly striving to learn more and grow better.

What is it they say about people who stop learning? I'm sure there's a saying... I just can't think of it right now.

I do believe the last thing Al is, is threatened. When someone shares freely with the intention of helping others, and has fact, logic, and common sense on their side, they're not threatened by challenges. Al meets every challenge with the same calm directness that he teaches with.

I wanted to know WHY people chose the container type they use... I want to know what benefits are in the various choices.

If your reason for using a particular type of pot is convenience, simply say so. It's not a crime to want an easier way to do something.

And, by the way, Mike... a shipment of clay pots would cost you a small fortune in shipping charges, due to weight. I think it would be less expensive to purchase clay locally, to be quite honest.

1. The bottom itself can be removed and used as a disc in a container for bonsai (shallow, radial) training of roots, et cetera.

2. The plastic pot, with the bottom removed, is also great for in-ground gardening. I sink these pots into the ground, which helps protect the roots from gophers and helps me deliver moisture to the root-zone (without watering the entire garden). It's very efficient. The pots usually split after a few seasons, but I've always acquired more by then...

3. Seedling transplanting/collection. When I dig up maple seedlings in June, I toss a white plastic bag inside a plastic pot, fill it with bark, perlite, and pumice, and then situate the root-ball into this mix. I punch holes in the plastic bag for drainage, and roll the excess plastic down over the pot to keep the black plastic from getting too hot. The seedlings are re-potted between December and February.

Josh

5. For some reason the local spiders on my terrace seem to love to set up big webs in empty plastic containers. I have 4 empty pots housing spiders at the moment, one of which is 5gal.
This one was known as the Pot of No Return to the aphids that invaded my potatoes in spring; I'd hold this pot under the potato leaves and shake the aphids off into it. Had no Aphid problems on my tomatoes this summer as a result, and it seems the spider had kids — one of which took up residence in the bottom leaves of one of my tomato plants.

Also, the upper critical temperature for soils begins to be a factor for some plants at as low as 75*. Most plants appreciate soil temperatures between 65-75*. Some impairment of root function and growth occurs in a high % of plants at around 80-85*, and most plants show serious impairment at temps >95*. Roots at the edge of black nursery containers die in minutes when the container is exposed to direct sun when ambient temperatures are high. Blow-over of pots, especially plastic and to a somewhat lesser degree, ceramic, is especially a concern because it exposes large surface areas to the sun at a very unfavorable angle of incidence (sun hitting container directly).

Since clay is gas permeable, evaporation occurs at increasing rates as temperatures rise, so it's almost like having a built in thermostat. I notice significant difference in plant vitality of those plants in clay vs those in plastic during the summer. Plastic pots that are other than white, when sides are exposed to sun, produce plants that grow slower and are much more likely to become chlorotic than those in ceramic, or plastic. From the perspective of energy outlay, it is expensive for the plant to have to go through the cyclical replacement of those roots that die at the container perimeter and are then replaced over and over as temperatures fluctuate between favorable and killing highs.

Al

Why?

Al

Temperature is the only reason I use plastic for my orchids... the ones that are close to the window, that is. And I'm not even sure if it's a real or imagined concern. But because orchids like humidity, and the watering "schedule" is different, I don't mind using a few plastic pots.

As far as casting a broken bone... plastic would not be practical, and it certainly would not breathe, allowing any moisture to escape. Plastic does have its place within the medical industry, but casting broken bones is not one of the uses!

Al certainly sticks to his guns..Unwavering, does not change his tune.

A stable and dependable teacher here..Reliable!

Thankyou for your perserverance Al!

In the past, have you had unfavorable results growing cold sensitive orchids in unglazed clay near your cold window? If so, do you know how much warmer your orchid roots are in the plastic vs. clay? Thanks.

I'm not as particular about my orchids being in clay as I am about my bulbs... the mediums used are different.

I'm that guy - and, harm's beeing done I now have to defend myself *groan*
First of all physics make my head hurt. I too was just quoting, i read it all on a German forum and tried to explain it as good as possible, and as good as I did understand it.
It was explained there that the white sediments on the side of the pot would be a problem for succulents because the roots don't grow in the direction of the most water but in the direction of the nutrients.

At the moment I'm growing my Amaryllis/Hippeasdtrum in big plastic pots, coco peat with a drainage layer and I'm always watering from below, never directly into the pot itself. I fertilize with every watering.

That does work great for me ... at least when the plants are well-established. I bought this year a lot of bulbs, directly sat them in the cocopeat and waited ... I guess with some the cocopeat was just too wet and they might have had problems with the circulation of oxygen. But once they had some leaves and lots of roots had developed, it worked surprisingly well. At least much better than with bought sphagnum peat mixes.

Now, with new bulbs beeing ordered, I'd like to try the variation of your potting mix jodik posted on the Hippeastrum-forum. Since they are at least partially epiphytic, I do like the idea with the bark. My only concern is whether my method with watering from below will work with this mix.

Somewhere up above, we also discuss what proper watering means, and to most of us, it means thoroughly saturating the medium until it drains out through the bottom of the pot. This method of saturating from the top helps in a few different ways... it allows for the exchange of gases and oxygen, to and from the roots... and it also helps to flush out excess salts and minerals.

I think that when you water from the bottom, your medium can't adequately bring fresh oxygen to the root system, nor can it help to leach out harmful salts. This may be why the German forum talks about such build-ups of white salts on the outside of pots, and it may also be why they feel the roots are being harmed.

Since abandoning the cocopeat and the bottom watering method, I have had no excess salt build-up on the outside of my clay pots. I think that if you build a proper medium, and you water thoroughly from the top, this build-up is much less likely to occur.

I must say, I'm glad to see you here, betonklotz... and I hope you will stick around and do a bit of reading. There's a lot of very good information on this forum.

I apologize for using your quote... I simply wanted an example to help demonstrate the pros and cons of using different pots and different mediums. I meant no harm. :-)

Coco fibers and watering from below support each other because the coco on top of the pot stays dry like hell. The substrate shrinks and expands with the water supply and leaves big pores. So I think at least with established plants my method works well, I've seen that the substrate does decompose, and I'll check how well the plants will do when I'm repotting them after 2 years. Yes, they should stay in the coco until Spring 2011! I'll show you pictures of the root system then, perhaps it'll make you too think ;)

I've read some of the posts here, but its sooo much and I should be doing university stuff right now. So I think I'll skip on a lot of these things, try your pinebark-perlite-granite mix and see if it works for me.

Wood containers are very good - especially those that aren't sealed with preservatives that stifle gas exchange.

BK - I hope you take this constructively.

The white sediments on the outside of clay containers (formerly solids dissolved in the soil solution) are deposited there as water evaporates from the pot's exterior. They don't present a problem to roots, which we can see by the fact that it is often difficult to extract plants in clay because the finest roots are growing into the fine clay pores. Roots do not grow toward a nutrient source or toward water or air. They don't have a 'sense' of where to find these things. Roots might be called opportunistic, in that they only grow where water, air and nutrients are found. We can see this in the fact that in spring, up to 75% of a maple trees living root mass might be found in the upper 6" of soil. In mid summer, only 50% of the roots might be found there. If we take into account that the plant already has a very large % of transport/anchoring roots there, we can see that there is a huge volume of roots that grow when conditions are favorable and die when they are not. If the theory that roots grow toward water/nutrients was true, then these roots would simply grow downward to join the rest of the deeper roots that sustain the plant through drought, yet they die. Another illustration is that roots cannot grow through 3" of dry soil to reach water or nutrients only that short distance away. The roots you see wrapped around the inside of of the containers holding root-bound plants are growing there because they find conditions there (more air and the right amount of water vapor) more favorable than inside the soil mass.

Consistent watering from the bottom has one major fault that detracts from the practice. That is, it guarantees an accumulation of soluble salts in the soil. Water, with it's dissolved solids evaporates from the soil and leaves the solids behind - just as it does on the outside of clay pots.

I hope you find the mix Jodi described to be a favor to your plants. I think you will. Good luck. ;o)

BTW - Who tattled? ....... never mind. I think I know. ;o)

Al

Maybe it's because I'm a very liberal person, a non-conformist, but I like change! I jump in with both feet, immediately after testing the water! I like to try new things... unusual things. I like the different, the unique. For example, I'm a tattooed, pierced, leather wearing, gardening Grandmother of 3... and the blue tint in my hair is more likely to be Manic Panic than a pastel covering for gray!

After experiencing poor results with accepted conventional methods, I checked out other ways to grow my bulbs... but found most to be just as devastating as plopping them in a plastic pot filled with what passes for potting soil.

To make a long story short, I decided that a logical scientific approach to container gardening would be the way to go, and I'm having wonderful success with my chosen methods.

I'm even going one better... I'm in the market for some wire baskets... so I can grow a few of my bulbs more like epiphytes! I'd like to check out what orchid bark and some lava rock pieces or pumice will do as a medium, in a moss-lined basket, planted with a Papillio or a cybister, perhaps.

Like I said... if something works for you, you're in business... but it's always nice to know that other alternatives exist. My biggest thing was actually learning how water behaves in certain container soils, and how roots work and what they require to be healthy. Healthy plants begin under the medium... at the roots.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that once I learned the HOW and WHY of it all, I saw clearly what would be the healthiest way to go in my growing environment... and I couldn't wait to try it! Now that I have, I can honestly sing its praises... perhaps a bit too exuberantly, though!

For me it's perfect, I'm watering like once a week and I can't over-water. I see pretty well how much the plants need by the rate the water is drawn into the pot. If my plants really stay in the coco for 2 years I should be able to see those soluble salts when I'm repotting the bulbs then. Do you have proof that this really happens and does harm the plants?

Jodik: I'm somewhat of a non-conformist to, at least with some things ... "never change a running system" is not the perfect approach to all things in life. But with some I have to admit, I'm just too lazy to change.
I needed a year to consider getting a piercing, now it feels completely natural to me ...

Just one question: Will the mix suck enough water, so that I can continue my routine? It won't store water as well as the cocofibers, I guess ...

Wick-watering and watering in small amounts ensures that ALL the dissolved solids in your irrigation water and soil solution that are absorbed by the soil actually stay, and accumulate, in the soil.

You could modify the mix by adding more calcined clay, which has excellent capillary attraction (wickability, to coin a word), but for best results, even though I realize you prefer it for convenience, abandoning the wick watering and changing to watering from the top would be better for your plants.

Al

I guess flushing the soil two time a year should help.

Flushing with rain water, room temperature snow melt, or dehumidifier water is a very good strategy because its virtually deionized state allows the water to 'absorb' more salt (ions) than tap water would.

Good luck. Hope you stick around.

Al

I, myself, tried the bottom watering method when I began experimenting with the cocopeat... but I found that more often than not, the pots sat in water, and the bottom half of the cocopeat was constantly waterlogged.

I went back to top watering, and I noticed that the cocopeat collapsed very quickly... even faster than bagged potting soil.

And that's when I went in search of a better way.

Incidentally, I noticed over the course of this past summer that every large bag of Miracle Grow potting soil, which we use outdoors for our salable plants, was quite different than the bag before it... some were fully decomposed into black mud, while others were full of shredded wood pieces and bits of clay soil in various stages of rotting down. I was less than impressed... and this is a company that used to sell nice, fluffy potting soil that was probably the better one on the market. It's horrible, to say the least, and only Hyponex tops it in nastiness!

As we go further with our plant enterprise, I fully plan on locating the ingredients to make our own mediums.

And... a quick word about the gardening industry and how we're being steered into buying what is offered... I stopped in at a WalMart to grab 2 clay pots so I can finish my potting... and they had nothing on the shelves. No pots at all... I was told there wouldn't be any until spring. Does container gardening stop at a certain time of year? I'm so glad the customer matters so much... NOT!

Don't even get me started on the bulbs and plant material they had on the shelves...

Do you think that Walmart is doing cutomers a favor by providing plants in selfwatering containers half dead? lol
My Walmart hasn't had any houseplant materials since the end of September....What's up with that?

To make matters worst, when I went next door to Home Depot to grab a few clay pots, the only ones they had didn't have any drainage holes, next to the poor drowing succulents, and all they had was plastic!.. Is this something new? ARG....

Look at the slow drowing death of this one in a pot with no drainage holes...:-(

I am not in shock by those who purchase wrong item things from big box stores but ask you to give what I say a think befor bying
Do you realy think employees of big box stores know the first thing about what they offer in garden depts ?
If so where where them products when my grandmom grew plants now I know what she meant when she said " dont talk to strangers "

Yes, salt build up is a potential issue, but it is an easy one to avoid with an occasional top watering. Bottom watering/feeding is also potentially more efficient as the nutrients remain available to the roots longer instead of being flushed away with every watering. Plants generally appreciate a consistent supply of nutrients rather than the feast/famine cycle often encountered with top watered/fertilized containers.

Just my 2 cents.

jodik wrote "I went back to top watering, and I noticed that the cocopeat collapsed very quickly... even faster than bagged potting soil."
Of course, the coco has no mineral parts at all. I wouldn't recommend it when your not bottom watering. I have seen it at a friends place. I gave him some of my cocopeat and he used it for a balcony pot. The rain really hardened the cocopeat, and the plants didn't seem to like it at all ...

The bottom watering requires that you have a intuition how much the plants need. Whenever I see that the water isn't gone within a minute or so I'll pour it away and won't water this pot for a while. This is of course just possible when you've got a good overview of your plants. I usually don't forget when the last time was that I watered. If my collection should grow, I might get problems ;)

For my growing style I use plastic pots. All my containers are trees (fir, pine, spruce) growing outdoors all year long. I've never tried clay for outdoor plants but I just use what I have available which in my case is lots of those green and black plastic nursery pots. Most of the containers I use are filed with Al's gritty mix and have added holes at the bottom and along the sides for increased drainage and gas exchange. The trees are doing quite well in this mix and in these containers.

I've also experimented with aquatic plant baskets which are basically mesh-like plastic containers with hundreds of small holes all along the bottom and sides. The few seedlings I have growing in them really seem to enjoy the combination of grit mix and extra gas exchange and put on a lot of growth this past season. I plan to used them again next season if I can find larger plant baskets.

I agree that I use plastic because it's easier for me, not necessarily better for the trees. I have a large supply of them and they are easy to use so I use them. When they crack or split I just toss them into the recycle bin instead of throwing them away.

I certainly could use clay containers as well but since I currently have none I'd have to lay out quite a bit of money to do so. Also I think I'd have issues with bitterly cold winter temps and clay containers outdoors or in an unheated garage. No doubt many of them would break apart in the cold winter weather with the expansion/contraction of the water in the containers. Plastic has some flexibility against cracking so again they work well for me the grower, but not necessairly for the plants themselves. The trees probably would be happier in clay or something that "breathes" but in my specific situation plastic is just fine.

If I was growing indoor plants I'd probably use clay like Jodi for sure.

Thanks everyone.

Dave

With so many bulbs and plants, it becomes crucial to check each one for moisture before watering. Not only do I have an extremely large collection, I also have a very poor memory... so it's to my advantage to constantly check!

Keep in mind that I grow all this within the confines of a one room, second floor apartment! I have completely taken over 2 window alcoves with shelving and lights, and every available inch of windowsill space contains a pot... it's like living in a jungle!

I do enjoy it all, but bottom watering is out of the question because I don't have the room to maneuver pots and saucers to keep dumping excess water! For me, it's not only an issue of mediums and proper watering... it's also an issue of space!

It makes more sense for me to top water in the jungle... take a look at my jungle, and you'll see what I mean!

And that's just one window alcove! All the other windows are filled with pots and greenery, too! What you don't see in the pictures are the lights hung over everything, or the way that the jungle is slowly expanding outward!

Regardless of cocopeat's consistency, it just didn't work out for me... so I gave it away to someone who does use it, and I opted for a more bonsai-like approach to jungle gardening!

Unbelievably amazing...I am finally able to see these wonderful pictures...Jodik, they look better than any I see at my nurseries..I am so proud of you..

Thankyou for sharing!!

Mike

For air circulation, there are two large ceiling fans that turn constantly... they stir the air nicely, distributing either heat or cool air to all areas of the apartment. And in nicer weather, we do open one or two windows... just not the ones in the pictures! There are windows on all four sides of the one large room.

Part of my collection are plants that were given to me as gifts... my "friendship plants". Part are bulbs I've purchased, and part are young bulbs from seeds I've grown. My eventual plan is to begin a well-recorded breeding program... perhaps I'll actually create a new flower, or get a much sought after cross to happen! Who knows?!

The important thing is that I have fun with it all!

Thanks again! Your compliments are much appreciated! :-)

YPA

Now, that was funny. I was thinking the exact same thing, lol.

No offense to the poster.

If I must be thought of as one of those "cat lady" types... I'd rather it be plants than cats! No offense to cat lovers... I'm just more of a dog, and plant, person!

Here's the hard evidence...

This is Maia, my Olde English Bulldogge, and her new litter of 9 babes... born just a few days ago...

I guess I'm that "plant and animal" lady! Just call me Grandma Nature?! Call me anything... as long as it isn't late for a bulb sale! I dunno! :-)

God I love bulldogs..My friend has 3....Yours is beautiful and yet tough looking...

Jodik, now that is what I call well-rounded out. Knowing how to take care of a family, a dog, and those plants..And knowing what you are talking about here too...Bravo..:-)

Thanks for everything and this thread!

Mike:-)

I've got a few years under my belt... I've lived a very diverse life, and I've done a lot of interesting things over the years... from milking cows on a dairy farm to driving a semi from coast to coast. Would you believe that I even kept a small plant in the truck? Yep... I had a little cacti on the dashboard! And my little Staffordshire Bull Terrier traveled with us! And, I've spent the last 14 years raising three stepchildren, and breeding American Bulldogs and Olde Bulldogges.

If you ever get a chance, take a look at a book called "Gladiator Dogs" by Dr. Carl Semencic... our kennel, our dogs, and pictures of my children are all featured in the Bull Breeds section!

I've been a plant lover and gardener for as long as I can remember... my Grandma grew beautiful gardens filled with peonies, bleeding hearts, and iris... and though the "green thumb" skipped a generation, even my Mom tried her best to grow plants.

The one thing I've learned along the way is that the "green thumb" is actually knowledge. And as our kennel tagline reads... Knowledge Breeds Success!

I will take a look at that book..

A plant and dog on board..That is what I call finding a purpose on the job..:-)

I am surrounded by them here at work, at my gym,my home, and yes at my local market, all at my own doing..lol..
Yes, most in "Clay" pots too...

Talk about skipping generations. My mothers mom has always been awsome at growing plant, indoors..

My mother tries her best too, but always seems to fail..I gave her a "hummel jade" in a "clay" pot, and so far so good...I am hoping she get through a whole year without over watering just this one, easy to kill.
If she succeeds with this one, a true challange, then she can grow just about anything, in clay that is..
She has never kept anything alive in plastic for too long..

She likes you ALOT and tells me she has learned so much from this thread..We'll see..

If she succeeds, she will be taking this up as a hooby once again. Growing them in clay this time around..lol

Glad to have you as a garden web friend!

Mike

Thanks for sharing!

My Mom watered everything once a week whether it needed water or not... and she left her poor plants sitting in full saucers of water. She kind of tried, but was just too busy to make plants a priority.

I first learned about watering plants when someone told me to think about the soil ball like a kitchen sponge... it should feel damp and wrung out, not sopping wet. And once it dried out again, depending on plant type, then it was time to add water. I think your Mom will do fine... especially since she has you to help!

I think a lot of people kill their plants with kindness... and I've found that hovering leads to over watering. I spend a lot of time just looking at my plants, but not touching!

I think it's great that you surround yourself with plants! It's not only healthy, as plants help clean the air, but I always feel like they boost my mood! They give any place a "homey" feel... as opposed to that sterile, office feel of a place with no plants. I must have plants and dogs... it's an absolute in my life! I get depressed without one or both!

Thanks, puglvr1! They get cuter as time goes by! I wish I could keep them all, but I don't think that will be possible! It's a lot of work having puppies in the house, but it's also a lot of fun!

Thank God someone took the time to teach me right!

I in particular am starting to like succulents! Those things you can almost ignore, and then, go away for a few days, then water no matter how dry, and they do well anyways...They are not my worrisom plants. You hardly ever have to worry about them wilting if you should forget to water..lol

You are right about a homey feel...What a difference it makes when you put something green in a bare room..

Do you realize that I am going away next week, and I have 5 babysitters set up to water my plants..lol.
Written instructions for all...And then I have to take them out to eat for payment....Do we love our babies or what? The things we do. I have one friend willing to crawl out on my roof to water all my greenhouse ones..lol

Jodik, if I lived near you, I would probably buy one of those puppies!! They are so adorable...

Keep smiling....:-)

Does this all sound okay? Is there anything else I need to do? I really want to see this one flower...sorry for all the ??'s and THANKS so much for your help!

Just be sure that all 5 plant-sitters are not watering the same plants on the same day! What a waterlogged disaster that would be!

That's the beauty of having mainly bulbs... I can water them before we leave to go see the kids and grandkids, and they'll all be fine for at least a couple of weeks. The bulb, itself, is a reservoir for moisture and nutrition, so the worst that will happen is I'll lose a leaf here and there.

The pups are still in the infant stage... but in a few weeks, they'll be incredibly adorable! My favorite age is when their eyes first open, and they begin walking and play fighting! All puppies play fight, but there's something really special about watching baby bulldogs!

Believe it or not, I've never had much luck with succulents. I think I probably killed them with kindness. I do currently have a little compot of cacti that I grew from seed, and they're doing alright. I've learned to put down the watering can!

I can't tell you how glad I am to have found GW... and in particular, this forum and Al and friends... they've all been so instrumental in my current growing success! It just goes to prove that you can, indeed, teach and old dog new tricks! ;-)

Here is the kicker...lol

I have a plant sitter for the plants I have at work, the gym, the golf club, the local market, my home, and the gym..lolol

I din't realize how much I would have to worry about them being watered if I left..Great..So much for more than a weeks vacation at any time...Now there is a job field that just might make someone alot of money..

Plant nannies..lol..Let alone pet nannies...

YPA

As far as watering goes... that's something I can't really help you with... beyond giving you tips on how to check for moisture... and letting you know that a set schedule isn't always conducive to good root health.

Each potted plant will have its own requirement for watering, and this will depend on several variables... your climate, the weather (sun and wind), how much the bulb intakes, etc...

What I would suggest, is either checking the medium periodically by inserting your finger as far as you can into the medium... or by inserting the pointed end of a bamboo skewer into the medium at an angle, so the tip is somewhere near the root ball. Leave the skewer in place... and pull it out occasionally to check for moisture by pressing it to your cheek. If it feels damp and cool, there's still moisture in the medium, so hold off... and if it comes out dry to the touch, it's time to water.

Since your bulb is outside enjoying the sun and all that nature has to offer, your watering times will be a lot different than mine... my bulbs are grown exclusively indoors. Sometimes, the first inch or two of medium will feel very dry... but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's dry all the way through... there could very well be a good amount of moisture around the root area. And this is why careful checking of the medium is so important.

When the flowers fade, you'll want to begin a feeding regimen... the leaves will grow in earnest, and the bulb will need nutrition to "recharge" for its next bloom cycle. I usually feed a liquid houseplant fertilizer at half strength every time I water. This ensures a constant supply of food to the roots. I'm currently using MiracleGro liquid fertilizer.

As the scape grows and the flowers begin to open, you can take the pot indoors to enjoy... keeping the flowers out of direct sun will help them to last a little longer. Once they fade, however, you'll want to give the plant good sunshine, along with your watering and feeding regimen. This will help the bulb regain its energy and size.

I hope this helps somewhat... there's a boatload of information over at the Amaryllis/Hippeastrum Forum... and the folks there are very helpful!

Mike, I'm sure there are both plant and pet sitting agencies or services... but since I could never afford to pay someone to care for my plants and dogs, we take the dogs with us, and I just water everything before I leave.

Having Olde Bulldogges and/or American Bulldogs makes it difficult to find someone that can be trusted to handle the dogs... they can be aggressive to other dogs, and are extremely powerful... so, one mistake could cost a life, or at the very least, make an emergency vet visit necessary... and it's not easy to explain those types of accidents.

When it comes to plants, I'd feel a lot more comfortable if the plant sitter knew what different types of plants required... and not just dump water on everything whether it needs it or not.

I suppose there's money to be made in this arena, but it's probably more lucrative in the upper income neighborhoods!

Thanks so much Jodik!! I appreciate all the help and suggestions...I will post an update "if" it blooms for me
:o)

You should see Pugs plants! She tends to underestimate her ability to do so good with hers!

Saying your plants don't look that great, in particular your citrus, Pug, you are wrong, no matter what the CLM are doing to them....You have them beat with such beauty and heavnly full flowered and fruited trees as yours!

Oh, if only mine could look like yours..

Your bulbs will do just as great. You know why, you don't have to ever worry about a darn CLM touching them, I think, and you have Jodiks backing!!....;-)

Hope you are well Nancy..;-)

Thanks Jodik for your vote of confidence also!

And a closeup of one tired little babe... what a yawn! It's a rough life, I know! The eyes are just beginning to open...