The scoria is closer to Turface than granite, and the Haydite is closer to granite than Turface, but the two ingredients just mentioned don't contrast with each other nearly as much as Turface & crushed granite.

I'm thinking you might be pretty happy with:
2 parts scoria
2 parts Haydite
1 part floor-dry
1-2 parts uncomposted bark
gypsum

Yes - CRFs are better incorporated than broadcast, especially if they will get direct sun on the prills, but you can do just fine with just soluble fertilizers if you're diligent about your applications. Whenever you're growing in containers, it's wise to make the assumption that you alone are responsible for seeing that your plants get all the nutrients they need to grow normally in a timely fashion and in a favorable ratio to each other.

Al

thanks a lot Al.
you mention that the scoria and haydite do not contrast nearly as much as turface and crushed granite. -- is that a bad thing? will less diversity compromise a soil mix?

Not really. It just makes it so much easier to adjust the water retention of the soil if you have something like Turface or floor-dry with tremendous internal porosity and water retention to contrast with a product like crushed granite which has no internal porosity and very little water retention. E.g., a soil with
3 bark
4 Turface
2 granite
would hold much more water than
3 bark
4 granite
2 Turface
When there is little contrast between the ingredients, it makes for more guesswork, but I suppose that if you get used to what you're using, adding/subtracting ingredients to achieve your desired level of water retention will become second nature. Notice that I keep the organic component at no more than 1/3 of the o/a volume to promote longevity.

Al

ok that makes sense.

i noticed you included gypsum in the recipe you gave me. is that to give the mix some added calcium and sulfur? does gypsum change the ph level or is it neutral?
what about lime? should it be in there?

.... mainly Ca, but S can be a problem in the gritty mix, too. MG and many (if not most) soluble fertilizers have no S, and bark, at only a 1/3 fraction of the whole anyway, is generally low in S. Gypsum may change pH very, very slightly, depending on the starting point, but for our purposes it should be considered pH neutral. Lime will raise pH, and since the starting pH of the gritty mix is considerably higher than the starting pH of the 5:1:1 mix, I use a combination of CaSO4 (gypsum) & MgSO4 (Epsom salts) as the Ca/Mg source because it has nearly no effect on pH.

Al

What about CRF for azalea's along with a mix of lime? (AS PER package has many minor's included)
Thanks Shannon

As you probably know, azaleas prefer a pH around 5.0 or even lower in a container, so I think it depends on the soil you're using. I wouldn't suggest you use lime with the gritty mix, though - especially with plants known to have a distinct fondness for acidic conditions.

"CRF" covers a LOT of ground. Just exactly what does it list as the NPK ratio, and exactly what other elements (nutrients) does it contain. What is the source of the N. A urea-based source of N would be most appropriate in all but a very few instances for rhodies.

Al

It is prolly better to say it is Ultra Green by Lilly Miller than to list the particular's... I just thought for the purposes of succulent's, added lime would help balance the pH as well as add Magnesium and Calcium. It has been quite a long time since college so I'm very rusty with the chemistry. Though reading thru most of your posts has brought back a few sparks here and there.
Thanks, Shannon

Just saying it's "Ultra Green" puts the burden of research to find out what's in it on me. I stopped looking when I discovered there's only about a thousand of them. ;o)

The whole Ca/Mg relationship is covered pretty extensively in other posts on the forum. The reason I suggest the CaSO4 as a Ca source, and the addition of MgSO4 as a Mg source is you can supply both Ca and Mg w/o raising soil pH. Since the gritty mix has a starting pH that is higher than that of peat/bark-based soils, we don't have the same luxury of killing 3 birds with one stone (raising pH, and supplying Ca + Mg). You can probably get away with using lime w/o horrid problems, but I've found that the gypsum/Epsom salts works better with the other chemical properties of this particular soil.

Al

Sorry about the research thing, assuming does alot for one as you prolly know... However, despite the 'should be' availiblity of pine bark fines in SWFL, its pretty much non-existent. "Because of the bug problem" is what I have been told by Forestry Resources. Apparently our bugs like pine... I use Osmocote for most of my plantings. The UltraGreen is not correct according to your ratios, however down here most plants seem to 'accept' different chem structures. I know you'll have a field day with that statement. Any way- 10-5-4 plus 5.9% Urea 1% Ammoniacal N, .7% other W sol N, P2O5 5%,2.4% H2O insoluable N, P2O5 5%, K2o 4%, S: 2.5% free S, .5% Combined S, Boron .02%, Fe .10%, Mn WS .07%, Mo .0005%, Zn .004%. And now I'm dizzy so if you need me to look at the label again, please wait a bit =D Shannon

Ahhh! - that makes sense ... termite heaven stacked up next to your house (pine mulch) is probably not a good idea in termite country, thus the 'no PB syndrome'.

The fertilizer is a little higher in P than necessary, but it's not so bad for the rhodies. To tweak things, you might want to consider fertilizing only enough to keep the foliage nice & green, but include either a little potash when you pot your plants, or use a K supplement each time you fertilize. This will turn around the P:K ratio to something a little more favorable (or switch to MG 24-8-16). The primary benefit is that you'll be able to fertilize at a lower rate o/a, which will make it easier for your plants to absorb water and the nutrients dissolved in it.

Al

I am really wanting to try this mix for my cactus and succulents. I live in a smaller part of the world, Saskatchewan Canada, and I am afraid I may not be able to find all this stuff, or even online that ships reasonably. Domomytic lime and gypsum, if I make 1 litre of this, how much would I add?

I have a question, I bought this stuff called AXIS today to do Al's gritty mix. It is to replace turface. Can someone let me know if it's ok? I still have the receipt in case I need to take it back.

Here is a link that might be useful: Axis soil amendment to replace turface

Its made from Caclined DE, same as oil dry and many other products. Do a search for napa 8822 and you will find many posts about it. I would say it should work great so long as the particle size is good. You don't want it to be too fine. Sift it over an aluminium insect screen would be good.

Its very similar to turface but:
Usually more gray colored
Weighs less
Holds a bit more water
Slightly higher pH

Where did you find this product?

This post was edited by smishgibson on Tue, Nov 12, 13 at 23:50

Hello,
Sorry for digging this post up. I have some questions about the potting mix for succulents.
I want to try the recipe of Al's gritty mix for my succulents. But I live in Vietnam, a small country in Southeast Asia where we don't have access to Turface nor DE nor pumice. We can only have perlite.
So, can I replace Turface with perlite? Since perlite is also internal porosity. Or should I just omit the turface from the mix?
Another the question is about the CRF. There is only 1 CRF availble here, the Bounce back. (I included the analysic of it). Can I use it in place of the CRF 18-4-9?

Thanks for your help!

Perlite is closed-cell, so although there are internal spaces, they aren't open to the outside. Perlite holds moisture primarily on its surface where the pores are open.

Josh

Hi Josh. Thank you for the quick reply.
So how about using Leca soil (Lightweight Expanded Clay Aggregate) or Scoria instead of Turface?

Trang

The Scoria would be better, although it has macro-pores and won't hold as much moisture as Turface.

Josh

Thank you very much, Josh!
I shall go planting now.

Trang

Yes Josh"" I forgot how useful this stuff can be. You're the best pal!
Always here ready to lend a hand! I use too. Been to tired these days (

Have a great day my friend

Can anyone suggest a readily available pre-mixed potting soil for succulents? I know it's not ideal, however I don't know where to get the various ingredients suggested here, and I only have two small succulents, so don't want to end up with 20kg of succulent potting mix!

My DH and I exploded our Christmas Cactus by over watering. The Christmas Cactus was in no special soil at all, and it flowered like crazy this year (twice), so assume it was happy. Until...(cue scary music)

So if anyone has any suggestions as to the best (of the worst!) pre-mixed and readily available potting soil that might support succulents (and keep my fingers crossed), I'd really appreciate it.

I found Miracle-Gro Moisture Control Potting Mix at Home Depot however the reviews are extremely mixed, and while there were at lot of 5-star ratings, there were more 1-star.

Thanks in advance,

Kat

Hi, Kat, my advice is to avoid MG moisture control at all costs.

Let me limit my response to your Christmas Cactus. Purchase a quality Orchid Mix that is mostly fine-grade bark (not the large chunk bark). Add a little more perlite to the Orchid Mix and that should make a decent mix for most jungle cacti.

Josh

Hi Josh,

Thanks very much!

Kat

Hi Al,

Thank you for dedicating so much time to supplying such detailed, helpful information. I'm sorry to rehash something that has already been discussed. However, I just wanted to clarify. Is the following mixture the one that you recommend for succulents or all house plants?

"3 parts Turface
3 parts crushed granite (farm feed store)
3 parts pine or fir bark (see photo for size)
1 part coarse silica sand (masonry supply company)
1 part vermiculite
CRF (18-4-9 is what I use, but anything with a high first # or close to a 3-1-2 ratio works well)
Dolomitic lime & gypsum
Micronutrient granules"

I am looking to make soil that will only be used for succulents. If the above mixture is correct for succulents. How much CRF, Dolomitic lime & gypsum, and Micronutrient granules would you use for a mix if I were to use 1 lb of each of the other ingredients.

Thanks in advance for your time!
Jamie

That recipe pops up from time to time, and it's one I provided to a lady who wasn't going to be convinced that she could get all the water retention she needed by varying the ratio of Turface:grit in the mix; and there was a lot of conversation that was carried on via email. I use equal parts of screened Turface, fir bark in 1/8-1/4 size range, and #2 cherrystone (or Gran-I-Grit in grower size or Manna Pro Poultry grit.

I use no additives other than Foliage-Pro 9-3-6 fertilizer. If you use that as your starting point, you'd have to work pretty hard at messing things up to end up frustrated with the results.

Al

Hi Al,

Thank you so much! I am excited to purchase all of the ingredients and get started.

Best wishes,
Jamie

Let me know if you think there is anything else I can help you with.

{{gwi:2595}} Al

Hi Al and all,

One last question that has probably already been answered, but after an hour of scrolling, I'm giving up and asking again. Al, you said that you use fir bark fines specifically - will pine bark fines such as these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-8th-inch-Shohin-Bonsai-Pine-Bark-Fines-1QT-57-75-cu-in-BonsaiJack-soil-/290987111297?pt=US_Garden_Tools&hash=item43c02ef381 work or do they need to be made of fir?

Thank you, thank you, thank you for your time in advance!

That's fir bark in the bag pictured at your link, but pine and fir work equally well. I buy the fir bark because I can get it prescreened to an appropriate size ....... my lazy bone guiding my decision. ;-)

That's really a lot of dough for a quart of fir bark - just so you know. Why not ck and see if Reptibark is cheaper. It's usually available at pet stores.

Al

Hey Al,

Do you use coarse vermiculite in your mix? Does it matter?

Rob

I still have 1.75 bags of the 2 small bags of vermiculite I bought 20 yrs ago. IOW - I don't use it.

Al

Oh, that's just great, I went out and bought 4 cubic yards of the stuff............ Just kidding, I'm on the wrong thread.

I thought I was here: http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1394635/best-soil-for-sedum

Rob

Hi Al! Thank you for being amazingly helpful on this thread. I inherited two beautiful large jade plants from my mother in law that had not been repotted in years. I repotted them, but I think I was lead astray by some bad advice and put them in basic potting soil with self watering pots. Sounds like I did everything wrong, and they don't look very healthy!

Is your basic mix: equal parts of screened Turface, fir bark in 1/8-1/4 size range, and #2 cherrystone (or Gran-I-Grit in grower size or Manna Pro Poultry grit.) Appropriate for the jades? Should I amend it with anything? Should I worry about repotting them again so soon?

Thank you so much for your advice, I really don't want to lose these guys!

Dear Saint Jed, Thanks for the kind words and where do you live. ;-)

An experienced grower who understands how water behaves in soils can coax plants to tolerate most soils, but I'm thinking a SWC is going to be a little more than the plant's going to want to tolerate. Yes, you can water in sips so soil doesn't get soggy, but then you have salt build-up and parts of the soil going so dry they become hydrophobic ...... You already recognize and show the good sense to retreat from the horns of that dilemma.

It's getting to be past the ideal time to be repotting in the northern half of the continental US, but still probably ok in the south. I'm not saying you'll kill your plant if you repot now, or even in Dec, but being a saint, you should be intimately familiar with Ecclesiastes 3:1 - "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven ...." , which is kind of like saying you'll make better headway if you don't have to swim against the current. When you can, plan your work so you're working WITH the plant instead of against it. the plant will show its appreciation.

To decide what to do, I'd ask myself if I thought the plant will make it through the winter if I don't repot. If you're sure you can do it - wait. If you're pretty sure you can't - repot. If the plant doesn't have root issues started, it should tolerate the stress of being uprooted again without too much complaint.

Al

Ok, thanks Al. I'm on the eastern shore of Maryland, so it might be getting a little late. The plants seem to be growing, they've developed a lot of new growth since being repotted. But a lot of the leaves have large black spots and some are yellowed. I moved them out into full sun, so I'm wondering if they've gotten burned? I'll probably wait until spring to repot, but when I do, should your basic mix be used?

Hi there jed,

Even w/o seeing them, I would bet the black spots are sunburn, the same thing happened to 3 of mine.:-)

Rob

We can tell if it's sunburn (photo-oxidation) from a picture of the damage. You can use either the gritty of the 5:1:1, or something in between; or, of course, whatever else you might choose. Just remember the concept in the thread about container soils and use a high % of particles 1/8" or larger.

Al

Rob

hdladyblu_2007(7bGa.) wrote: "i need a good recipe for container succulent soil mix.TAPLA?help please."

I'm not TALPA but I have read book 'The Splendid Sansevieria' by Chahinian B.J.. This is from book.

"One mix, that was recommened to me and seems to work very well is 1
part commercial potting mix with "coir" (coconut fibers), 1 part
perlite, 1 part calcined clay and 1 part 1/2 in thick lava rock (the
type used by orchid growers)"

Also I have read an article about succulent here:

The Highland Culture Guid

There have been great advances in the last 15 years in commercial growing medium and the trend is definitely toward soilless mixes. These come in a variety of formulations with the composted bark being the best. Few growers today use soil based medium as the results realized with soilless mixes are so outstanding.

Simply stated, soilless mixes are based on the matrix concept which is nothing more than a given volume of semi-uniform size particles which provides for maximum growth. Nutrients are then added as fertilizer in solution or incorporated dry into the matrix. The matrix is a carefully constructed blend of composted bark (not landscaping bark), horticultural grade peat (not more than 20%), perlite (baked pumice), vermiculite, and a buffering agent to adjust and stabilize pH. It contains no field soil or aggregate whatsoever.

Sourse: https://www.highlandsucculents.com/culture_guide.htm

But I think that it will be better if you will make your own experiment. You can plant 4 succulents in 4 different soils. And you will see what will work for you.

I think the only experiment can say what is good and what is not. Because all plants are different from each other, and we live in different conditions, so the mix must be different.

The best mix is something like "the best toothpaste for everyone". But you can't find the best toothpaste for everyone because all people are different. You can not find two identical people. Plants, too, differ from each other.

For example, Chahinian B.J. grew various plants (succulents). These plants were happy but Chahinian B.J. have found very rare succulent. Chahinian B.J. had some problems with this succulent. His mix did not work for this rare succulent. He changed mix for this rare succulent and his plant began to grow very well.

I mean, you can not find the perfect mix for all succulents. We need to respect plants and don't use one mix for all plants.

If you do not respect people, you can give "the best toothpaste for everyone". But if you respect them you will give different toothpastes for different people. Plants are the same. Plants want different things.

Everyone can make own experiment to find the best soil for your plants. It's simple.

hdladyblu_2007(7bGa.),

'The Splendid Sansevieria' by Chahinian B.J.. This is from book.

"Using calcined clay not only provides good drainage but seems to chemically interact with the plant.

...

clayey soils seem to add color and strength thought no controlled tests have been made to ascertain this".

Ok, If Chahinian B.J. is right, Sansevieria likes and wants calcined clay but maybe Spider Plant are not (I don't know) (I know that Spider Plant is not succulent). I'm sure that we can find some plants that don't like calcined clay.

That's why we need to use a personal approach.

Sunburn.

Al

Ok, thanks! Is that just from too much sun too quick? They like full sun, correct?

Hi dert, my neighbor just gave me, 5 cuttings off of a 50 year old spider plant.

And here's my Sansevieria.

I need to repot it.
Rob

halocline(5b - CO)

"Hi dert, my neighbor just gave me, 5 cuttings off of a 50 year old spider plant".

Hi, Rob.

Thank you for this information. I can never imagine that Spider Plant (Chlorophytum comosum) can live so long. It's very interesting.

UPDATE:

I have found this information in Internet:

"Spider Plants are no different than any other plants. They will live as
long as they have ample sunlight, water and nutrient rich soil. My
Great-Great-Great-Great-Great Grandmother planted a spider plant she
obtained from a trip to South Africa as a child in the mid 1850's. It
was Willed to me by my Grandmother and it's still happy and alive,
currently residing in my living room. It's roughly 160 years old, about 3
feet at the base and about 3½ feet tall. It has almost 100 vines and
well over 200 baby spiders. Every one of my friends and coworkers has at
least 1 or 2 spider plants. We named it "Audrey II" back in the mid
80's".

Sourse: http://www.answers.com/Q/How_long_does_a_spider_plant_live_for

Hi there! I've put two of my adeniums in 100% pouzzolane (lava rock, small size). What do you think about it ?

Not enough info. How appropriate it is depends in large part on size gradient.

Al

FWIW … I grow my adenium year round in NAPA part no. 8822 and No. 2 cherrystone with a bit heavier on the cherrystone … 1:1.5 ish. Requires frequent fertigation … use half or 1/4 strength of label Rx … only lava rock i can get is big and not small at all.

I get my lava rock in the 2-4mm size. After screening I use the 2-3mm for my soil. (Keep in mind; this is strictly for Adeniums.)

I mix Lava Rock, Coarse Perlite, Fir & Pine Bark, and a small portion of either FoxFarm Ocean Forest, or HP PROMIX potting soils. And to top it off; I add 2%-5% activated Biochar by volume (which I just learned how to make). I believe this will be key in accelerated caudex growth.

Biochar is like hotels for microbes. A one square inch piece of Biochar has roughly 57,600 square feet of surface area, or about the same as a football field.

For succulents however, 100% lava rock, or 70%-30% lava rock Perlite mix will do just fine. Although adding some organic material will help retain a bit more moisture. Succulents can go longer w/o water than other plants, but as Al has pointed out in other threads; he waters his weekly. (I believe??) ;-)

Rob