I totally agree with Jodik: because of its longevity the gritty mix wins hands down for any long-term plantings (bulbs, succulents, cacti, shrubs, and trees come to mind). It is worth every ounce of effort you put into it.

I think there is a common misconception, promulgated by an overzealous one or two that infers that anyone that touts the use of the gritty mix or the 5:1:1 mix tells everyone they meet that you CAN'T grow healthy plants in commercially prepared bagged soils. This would be an example of people twisting reality to grease the skids that lead to a personal agenda, and couldn't be farther from the truth.

Speaking for myself. I can say with complete honesty that I REGULARLY state the fact that you CAN grow healthy plants in a commercially prepared mix. BUT, it is usually more difficult and they cannot offer the same opportunity for plants to grow as near to their genetic potential as soils with better porosity and less water retention. If there is argument, it should center around this key factor. No one is saying your plants will die in Miracle-Gro soil, but MANY are saying that if you are struggling with the highly water retentive soils that come from a bag, and if your plants are not all you want them to be, there are ways to improve your situation and help to be had.

Personally, I have a very long record of helping people to get the most out of ANY soil they are growing in, or any soil they want to grow in. I've even written threads dedicated to Dealing with Water-Retentive Soils to help in that regard. If you look closely, you'll find that I rarely PUSH either the gritty mix or the 5:1:1 mix unless I'm asked about it. In recent days, I've come across several people wanting to repot into one of these mixes, which would be a PERFECT opportunity for me to PUSH the 5:1:1 mix or the gritty mix. Instead, I have told people it's better to try to get your plant to limp along until summer, correcting limiting factors now to the greatest degree possible sop that when days lengthen and the plant gains more energy it will withstand the repot better, ans we can talk more about soil then.

In other words, I'm more interested in people understanding the CONCEPTUAL relationships between soils and water retention than I am in 'getting them to use ""my"" soil'. I've NEVER used that term, btw. That doesn't mean that I won't help people when they ask about a soil, or point them in the direction of a better choice of soils AND the concept I push when it's painfully obvious their troubles are soil-related.

Look - I went to considerable effort, and maintained that effort, to tell people why soils work and why soils fail. I'm referring to the thread about how water behaves in soils. The thousands who have responded favorably to the information are clear evidence that I wasn't just blowing smoke, that the information is scientifically sound. I'm not a theorist. I hope it shows that I try to be scholarly, but more importantly, I'm a practical applicationist who has extensively observed the merit in what I have shared. I learn, then I let my practical experience validate what I've learned, then I share it with the forum. Everything I share or say is something I'm ALWAYS ready to discuss with all comers, at length and in depth.

If I only told people WHY certain things work as they do, I would be a theorist. I also show people HOW to make things work as I have shown them to work. The basic recipes I offer at the end of the thread about soils is the substance that separates be from theorist and allows me to be viewed as a practical applicationist; pictures help, too. I'm very glad people show interest in the recipes, and especially glad because it proves that what I said strikes a chord and makes sense. Because of how this information is received, people make their own decisions on what is the right or wrong path for them to follow. It's an individual decision that they make based on proven sound information.

Now, imagine a contrasting scenario with Chicken Little, feverishly running around in circles and telling everyone that they can't cross the mountain, while hundreds who have all crossed it are standing in a loose group looking at the pass and calmly reassuring others that haven't crossed, that they can if they wish. Chicken little can fabricate horrible stories about mudslides, rock slides, snowstorms, grizzly bears, roadside puddles, and waning daylight ..... but the reality is, so many have crossed the pass that the repetitive warnings become nothing but annoying background noise, especially because Chicken Little has no experience crossing the pass. It's most annoying to those that have crossed because the overwrought alarmism unnerves others who are as inexperienced in crossing as Chicken Little. It's not a surprise that the group with the positive approach and experience crossing the pass, gains the ear and trust of others. Ideally, Chicken Little would either cross the pass or get the overwrought alarmism under control; things would go much more smoothly for everyone.

I looked at what Ykerzner said and thought, "Hey - who am I to judge. The guy is happy with the way things are and I have no inclination to expend any energy to try to get him to change his mind. He knows already that I wish him well, and that if he needs/wants help or support he only needs to ask. That is the kind of relationship I prefer with everyone. He probably understands where I'm coming from and has decided what's best for him. Do I think he could do better? Yes - we all can, me included. He's not making any accusations or statements that if challenged he couldn't support, and his tone is very conversational - nothing at all in it that smacks of wanting to instigate an argument. What he said was very well thought out and reasonable."

..... so Happy New Year, Ykerzner! ;o)

{{gwi:5839}}

Al

Hey, folks! Great discussion!

JoJo, maybe it was a distributor location at E.B. Stone's website? I'll link below.

I get most of my ingredients from a local nursery - Bark, Perlite, Red and Black Pumice, Quartz, Pea Gravel.
It's all produced by E.B. Stone.

I buy Turface at Sierra Turf and Supply down the road in Rocklin.


Josh

Here is a link that might be useful: E.B. Stone organics

A Happy New Year to you too, Al!

And by the way, before I read the thread on a fertilizer program for containers, some time last winter, I rarely got more than a handful of fruits on any vegetables. Yields exploded (relatively) after this, and now I have a much greater understanding of fertilizers in containers. Thanks so much.

Thanks for your explanation, Al. I would have appreciated being included in your mention but that's okay.

In the spirit of the New Year, I wish everyone health and happiness and peace.

A few photos:
Great tomatoes grown in bagged mix/bark
{{gwi:55449}}

Annuals grown in bagged mix/bark
{{gwi:55450}}

Hibiscus potted in bagged mix/bark
{{gwi:55451}}
Various annuals, vegetables all potted the same way
{{gwi:3496}}
Assortment of vines - Moon Flower, Morning Glories potted in bagged/bark mix
{{gwi:55452}}

Schefflera potted in bagged/bark
{{gwi:55453}}
I apologize if some photos are too large. Still trying to learn how to reduce size.

Jane

Hey, Jane....
(I know you meant to type Pachira instead of Schefflera...) ;)

Josh

Sungold tomatoes through October....

{{gwi:7394}}


Josh

Jane - would you please take a minute to explain what you meant by "I would have appreciated being included in your mention but that's okay." I'm unsure what it refers to.

Al

HI Josh!
Yes, that's the one. :) Thanks!!
JoJo

"""Posted by ykerzner 9 TX (My Page) on Fri, Dec 31, 10 at 12:37

I totally agree with Jodik: because of its longevity the gritty mix wins hands down for any long-term plantings (bulbs, succulents, cacti, shrubs, and trees come to mind). It is worth every ounce of effort you put into it.""

I agree too! I'm looking forward to enjoying more time to
"visit" my garden and all the beauties of it, due to less time repotting.

I grow alot in beds too.

Great pics everyone!

ykerzner~~
Your plants look very nice.
It's good you can grow in bagged mixes if that's the only way you can right now.

It looks like you can give them a little more shade than me. Arizona sun is brutal in the summer. I tired bagged for years and they just don't work.

If someone can make them work, than that's great.

I even tried gourds last season in the 5-1-1 and saw a huge improvment in them.

JoJo

Darn it, a long post I tried to send from work (work? what's that?) didn't go through
Question: it has been mentioned several times about postponing repotting until spring, when dayhours are longer. Al's mentioned interim measures for improving plant health until its the optimum time to repot.
1/ My question is how do you know whether you've got situation that demands repotting even if it is January? 2]Which ills can wait till spring to be corrected.
3]Is there a triage logic? If it looks like this or this, go directly to surgery. If it doesn't, wait in the E.R. for 3 hours If the plant just has a stomachache wait until spring? (the equivilant of 6-8 hours in the ER)

I have a couple of orchid qs but I'll ask over at the orchid forum

ps went to Mahoney's and looked allround again. Just bout MG, in case one orchid's ills are lack of nutrition...mg is like taking aspirin....

Thanks,
Marie

Mr.like2U thanks for the heads up on local sources of grit. That'll save me some gas. Made some gritty mix today and did an emergency repot on my wife's Christmas Cactus. The root system was extremely compacted with peat (pudding?) and it took me a while to bare root this plant using the kitchen sink spray hose. But I got it done and repotted. We'll see how it does pretty soon, but it was pretty unhapppy so I'm sure it will improve.

Marie, Bonsai places like NE Bonsai have all of the ingredients for either 5-1-1 or Gritty Mix, and it comes in smaller sizes. I went for the 50 lb sacks of grit and turface because it is cheaper that way. You can also get all the ingredients and have it mixed for you at repot.com, but that can be quite expensive. If you only want small amounts it might be OK. I need a large amount because I'm planning on putting about 50 hostas in 5-1-1 or gritty this coming spring.

If you need any help with acquiring ingredients, please feel free to email me. I'll be glad to help.

Steve

Hi, Marie. Triage logic - cute! ;o) Plants that are weak just don't tolerate extensive work well. Heavy pruning above or below the ground, like during a repot (as opposed to potting up) is a trauma that plants in good vitality tolerate well, but weak ones do not. In almost every case, there is no justification for piling that kind of stress on a plant when it is weak & the recovery period guaranteed to be lengthy. The 2 issues that require careful some careful consideration during the winter are the soggy soil/over-watering relationship and a build-up of salts in the soil. Other issues that often occur are insects and lack of light, but here the course requires little consideration. You get rid of the bugs or put the plant in better light. If you don't have better light, there is no sense in fretting because you can't fix it unless you supplement.

OK - back to the 2 most common problems, soggy soil/over-watering and a build-up of salt. Both are almost always soil related issues and can be remedied by changing the soil to something like we're discussing on this forum, but we know it's not best to repot in the winter unless we're talking about temperate plants that are dormant and there is no chance their roots will be exposed to freezing temps after the repot.

There are ways to temporarily deal with soggy soil and salt build-up, so part of my routine suggestions is to flush the soil and then take measures that help with the saturated soil/over-watering. It's something of a shotgun approach I wouldn't have to take if I had the plant in hand and could (hopefully) isolate the actual cause of the plants decline, but once things like insects, disease, and a greater-than-normal-for-winter lack of light are eliminated, we're usually left with the usual suspects.

Most growers never even consider energy management in their plants, but because of the major work bonsai practitioners must do to bring their plants along, it becomes critical that we have a good understanding of how the plant reacts to all sorts of stimuli at various parts of the growth cycle and at all energy levels. Plants are plants, and 95% of what applies to plant A applies to plant B. When it comes right down to it, the physiology of trees in little different than that of a potato or a marigold. If you understand 1 plant thoroughly, you understand at least 90% of what applies to all plants - probably more.

Al

Steve Pudding ? LOL at least the dog will eat it RE; the help offer is very kind of you I sent you an email to extend your offer. I see you re-potted a holiday cactus too, funny there seems to be a bit of that going around lately. Worry not it will bounce right back suggesting to give it a rest in a soft light area no direct sun 6 - 10 weeks before moving to a more direct sun lite position.
On your bagged soil feedback I certainly respect you for your response even thou you knew convincing me wasn't going to be done you took great efforts in expressing yourself in a very courteous and friendly manner. In short are there alternatives other than peat based bagged ? Do you think that a truck load of top soil or loam delivery would help to not have to pick up second rounds of bagged soils ? Maybe a home compost pile could take a chunk out of the extra bag buying duties I mention this because Al also never said plants WONT grow in these types of soils either.

Marie: Repotting I read Al saying or how I read it. The ideal/best time to re pot is during a plants dormant time up to and ideal time being just prior to there initial ending of dormancy. Which is usually spring for a lot of the most common plants. Al said MOST plants because he knows not ALL plants go dormant at the same time.
I think ( not to dismiss Al ) Jodi can help explain re-potting yours a bit better than I can at least she definitely makes for better reading that I could ever offer.Jodi may even ask if your going to store the bulbs or allow a more natural growing as I do for Hyppies.

Generally: Repot houseplants/tropicals/sub-tropicals in the month immediately prior to their most robust growth. It's common to repot many tropical flowering plants like hibiscus and brugs in the spring, even though they would recover faster if repotted in the summer. This, so the bloom period is not interrupted.

Repot temperate deciduous plants and temperate herbaceous perennials in spring at the onset of, or just before growth or budswell if there is any chance the plants' roots would be exposed to freezing temperatures if they were repotted earlier.

It's ok to repot most plants in fall if they are kept in an area where their roots will not be subjected to freezing temps. It's not that freezing soil temperatures are particularly dangerous to plants that are tolerant of freezing lows, only that new roots are much more succulent and less hardy than older lignified roots and need protection to prevent the plant from expending energy unnecessarily on roots that will be lost if they freeze.

Evergreens vary, but most are best repotted in spring at the onset of growth, except most pines are repotted in the summer months - I repot my pines in Aug.

Al

Al,The wintergreen was being sold inside/indoors the nursery at Christmas as a christmas plant. They should be enjoying the cold, however I don't know how they were raised before showed up in Massachusetts in pots indoors. Wouldn't you hestitate to put them where it is freezing without acclimatizing them? Can't acclimitize to outdoors now...it is 50 today and could be 20 by tomorrow. I know they are very hardy...well below zone 4. However I don't have a garage or a cold greenhouse. Are you saying they need a dormant period? The best I can do is the cool basement. BTW, the only outdoor container plants I have are annuals, and a few perennials I use in pots. It is the house plants I'm concerned about.
mike, I live in Lexington. I still don't know where you are located.
Bonsai west website is under construction. But I'll call and see what they have before I order from Repot Me.
Marie

Al, I love your Chicken Little analogy! It tells the story very well, indeed! :-)

Marie, when it comes to Amaryllis bulbs, re-potting or triage will largely depend on the exact issue. If I could see your potted bulbs, I'd know exactly what to tell you. I've been growing Hippeastrums and other Amaryllids almost exclusively for the better part of a decade, now. A few of my bulbs are older than that. You might say that bulbs are my specialty!

Amaryllis bulbs are very sensitive to excess moisture. They hate "wet feet", or consistently wet roots, and bulb rot can quickly become an issue.

When I purchase a bulb kit, the very first thing I do is dispose of the coir medium that comes with it, and the cheap plastic pot. I prefer growing bulbs in porous terracotta clay pots, and I get the best results from a grittier, more aerated medium.

As long as there aren't any rot issues presently, and you allow the soil to dry out around the root ball area before watering again, you can probably wait until spring to disturb your bulbs with a re-pot. If there IS a rot issue, immediate triage will be necessary in order to save the bulb.

There are different schools of thought on growing Hippeastrum bulbs... the discussion of which could take up another entire thread! Some people force a dormancy, some schedule their bulbs for blooming, some allow dormancy with the bulbs left in the pots, some un-pot and store their bulbs... I grow mine similar to any other houseplant, and I allow the bulbs to tell me what they want by observing them closely.

They are sold around Christmas, primed to bloom by the growers... but their natural bloom time is actually in early spring to summer, after which they grow a set of leaves in order to recharge, and then they rest... in anticipation of their next bloom cycle. My bulbs typically bloom in early spring, grow leaves and utilize the sun and fertilizer to recharge over summer, and then they drop leaves and rest in late fall and over winter. When I observe them wanting to rest, I cut back on watering somewhat. When I observe new growth, I resume normal watering. I feed a diluted fertilizer about every other time I water, and I flush with clear water every so often to remove excess salts.

The important thing to remember is that bulbs can't tolerate constant wetness, which is why the Gritty Mix works so well.

Tell me about your bulbs and the condition they're in, Marie, and I'd be happy to help you determine a re-potting schedule. If they appear to be growing well, and there are no rot or other issues, you can easily wait until spring to re-pot... but if there are rot or other issues, I'd be happy to walk you through emergency triage! :-)

Hi Marie:

I live in Lowell, just 15 minutes from you. How good is that? Looks like you will not be worrying too much about the ingredients since I can help you out quite a bit. We will talk soon

Also, I thought the "Christmas Pine Trees" being sold in stores now were tropicals. Am I mistaken? I have a few of those, or what looks like those growing on my property in the Tropics.

Have a happy day everybody!

Happy New Year! We had a lovely New Year's Eve with friends, most of whom are in their 60's, like us. The yawns practically swallowed the dining room by 11;15, but we all hung in till midnight. Mass exodus at 12:05.

The last thing I did before going to sleep at 3:30 am was check this forum. I knew there would be many posts, just like now! Do you guys ever sleep? I guess you live breathe and sleep container plants!

JoJo, the amaryllis bulbs are brand new, growing in that terrible coir medium. I've grown them before but never had one longer than a year when I got exasperated with the space it took up and tossed it.

This fall, I decided to play with houseplants seriously for the first time since I had children. I realized I needed a hobby to get me throug the winter. That was 30 years ago. I had a couple of dozen back then, and they slowly died from neglect when I discovered I couldn't take care of them and a baby. Over the years, I've had more but they die over the summer when I spend every waking minute of daylight out in the garden.

I bought the amaryllis because they were inexpensive and very forgiving. I must have opened 60 boxes in the grocery store checking their size and health. I have 6, all the very common ones--appleblossom, amigo, vera, white xmas,--they've all sent up leaves and a couple have stalks peeping up. I'm only watering when dry. I think I'll let them stay in the coir until after they've bloomed. I've got enough to do!
My other undertaking is a couple of evening florist classes in flower arranging. Very inexpensive and time limited but also a good change of pace from outdoor gardening

I garden on about a half acre in Lexingon Ma, where the American Revolution started. Sometimes neighboring Concord stakes that claim, too. But in fact "the shot heard 'round the world" was fired there. It is not an old town anymore; it is an affluent suburb, though we are not among the affluent, in part because I spend every extra penny on plants, trees and shrubs. I love to garden, but I am not a very accomplished designer. I have a vision, but really realy struggle in the execution.

I put together a couple of big Xmas urns this year. They came out verywell, but were lacking something. I realized I encountered the same limitation as in my garden design. I often stop short of whatever makes a design "sing"....or "zing"...I threw on a dozen more red balls and it made a big difference. But I had to talk myself into it!

As I get older I'm following a not uncommon path: putting in more and more trees and shrubs.I'm getting tired of fussing with grooming, dividing, fertilizing and weeding big perennial beds. The Weeding. The Watering. My aching back. Finally am paying for some help in garden, too.

I've got two young adult children who live halfway and all the way across the country.Another lives near us; she has developmental disabilities. On Sundays when she is home, she wants to garden, go to nurseries or greenhouses.She is a wonderful plant shopper with a great eye for form. When I'm buying a plant I'll set out several and ask her to choose the best. She has an unerring eye.She stops at plants I walk by and comments on the form or color. She hasincreased my appreciation of 'gardening without premeditation"

Mike, it is great you live so close. I worked in Lowell for a year, and still have a few friends there. I'll email you about getting in touch and how you would like to handle the soil.

I hope you all don't mind I've shared something about myself. I've actually never done so on another forum. But you guys are truly exceptional in your generosity and warmth. Don't know what I contribute to this forum except my thanks for a place among happy people during a New England winter!

Thanks!
Marie

That wonderful and ACCURATE history lesson is a great contribution. Boston to Lexington to Sudbury yeah Concord too. A early American history filled area love the country side road scenery especially in fall. For your daughter CLICK HERE and you too even in bleek gray cold Feb there is something there for both of you.
Mike, Steve is over here by me up the road a bit let me know if you need anything other than black pumice.

Mrlike2u: Did you here about Jimmje's nursery closing up for good?

You can get 50 year old and very mature plants, such as blooming Hoya's, thick trunked Jades, Hobbits years old, NBC at flowering stage, huge citrus trees, olive trees over 3 feet tall and so on for about as cheap as can be. I got a 5 foot blooming olive tree worth 150 dollars for 20 dollars and a few mature thick trunked gorgeous hobbits worth over 50 dollars, variegated, compact crosby jades and much more for 4 dollars! I bought some for a few friends here that do not even know it. lol
The owner is 92 years old and believe me when I tell you, there are lot's of gems I found there.

If you are off Tuesday am let me know.

Mike:-)

Mrlike2u: Did you here about Jimmje's nursery closing up for good?
Got the news two days ago was planning Wed but Tuesday works for me too.
It's going to take a few days for my decoder ring to work I dropped it a week ago and it cracked but as soon as it's back in working order I'll know what a plant type NBC is. (Nice big cactus?)
If your heading this way and wanna be the hitch hiker just send an email of where we can koalackha if not then I'll be the hitch hiker

Hello everyone!!!

I just want to say that you all are so lucky to have that lovely nursey close to you in Mass...Both of my parent are from Boston...I loved the little histroy lesson...on my mother's side...our names go back to the Revere name!!! Yes, the man who had a big mouth!!! love all of the history...mkes me want to visit again soon...maybe when it warms back up...

Mike that sounds like great find...lucky lucky!!!

I have found a nursery close to me in Richmond who has alot of the ingredients for "the Mix" I can't wait to get my proper ingredients together and repot come springtime!!!

Take care everyone...love this thread...Welcome Marie!!!

Laura in VB

It's always nice, Marie, to learn a little something personal about the people we share these forums with. Thank you for sharing! Welcome, if I haven't already said it. :-)

Looking back on my own life, I pared down my gardening, too, while raising my children. Once they were grown, though, I dove back in with much zeal!

I find myself in a quandary as I get older, though... I don't really want to pare down, even though the physical aspects are getting harder to manage as time passes. A mere decade ago, I could manage all parts of landscaping and preparing new beds outdoors, right down to the double digging and hauling heavy wheelbarrow loads of amendments.

Today, I have to find help to get through the more difficult physical aspects of perennial gardening. I think choosing a more "Cottage Garden" style of growing has helped eliminate some of the more demanding issues... I allow the perennial beds to evolve on their own, for the most part.

The largest amount of work is in the rose beds... unavoidable, though, as this is our business. We grow and sell hardy, own-root roses of the harder to find and old fashioned persuasion. Keeping it to a manageable size will be imperative.

Tender and rare bulbs, my indoor passion, gets neglected during the nicer seasons so I can work outdoors... the colder months brings a renewed effort to work with my indoor jungle!

Sleep? What's that? As I age, it seems that insomnia creeps in more and more... and I find myself napping during daylight hours! I think you'll find people posting at all hours due to many reasons... mine just happens to be insomnia. I should probably try to rest... have a lovely day, everyone!

Laura: I will help you..I will e-mail you sometime tomorrow, k. Also I will try and see if something you really like is at the nursery! Good to see you too!If you should ever decide to visit up here, let me know and I can take you around. By the way, I just LOVE your snowy palms pics! I use them as my backgrounds at work and everyone loves them. Thank you

Jodik: How are you? You getting old? Stop that. You are still just a kid at heart and in mind..This I will tell you though that no matter how old you are, cleaning perennial and rose beds can zap the life right out of you!
Your hard work really pays off though, since the pictures you post speak volumes! I can not wait to see more come spring.
By the way, I just got some Amaryllis bulbs, not sure that is how you spell it, lol for 75 percent off the regular price. I can not wait to grow some thanks to you.

Marie: I really enjoyed learning about you. I love the way you describe the area too. Thank you much. Don't forget to let me know what you need and I will deliver..

Good night everyone

Mike:-)

I too am a newbie to gardening. My husband and I built a beautiful deck and pergola last year and a container gardening bug bit me. I have never really had a veggie garden but I am determined to try. I am very interested in growing some basic vegs in large galvanized wash tubs that I have. I think I understand that the 5-1-1 mix is for one growing season and the gritty mix can last 2 or 3? Would it work to plant vegs in the gritty, cover the containers after harvest (we get loads of rain and snow) and hopefully extend the useability/viability of the soil rather than mix up new 5-1-1 every year? Would it be a good idea for me to line the inside of the metal containers with bubble wrap in case it might decide to get too hot in western WA :)? I know I'll have a million more questions and I'm so grateful to have found the forum. Any books anyone recommend on beginning veg container gardening?
Thank! Julie

It seems like every time a discussion about the gritty mix comes up (or the 5:1:1 mix for that matter), there are always one or two negative Nellies that try to sell you a hundred reasons why you shouldn't even try them, which makes no sense to me, especially because in nearly every case they admit to never having used them. The real point I'm getting to here, is you can see the support group that comes along with the decision to try the mixes. Support from those who HAVE tried them, many of whom attest to having experienced remarkable changes in their abilities to consistently produce superior plants with less effort.

Doesn't it warm your heart to see people go so far out of their way to do as much as they can to help you make your growing experience more rewarding? You're a good guy, Mike, and so are all the others upthread offering help, support, and encouragement.

Johnny Mercer wrote a song and Bing Crosby (I think) made it popular ... oh, about a hundred years ago ...

You've got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mister In-Between

You've got to spread joy up to the maximum
Bring gloom down to the minimum
Have faith or pandemonium's
Liable to walk upon the scene

Al

Al, you can brighten up! We all went to Bonsai West and gasped as the hundreds of Bonsai on display. That didn't include the cold greenhouse or the outdoor display.
And I bought their gritty bonsai mix.
I told you I listen to advice, get information and make my own decisions. So i'm giving gritty mix a try.
I must say, if money was really hard to come by, I might not have.I had sticker shock. A huge bag of Scott's (even if it is mostly air, perlite and dried peat) is a lot less expensive than the small bag of bonsai soil. I heard what you all said about the long term expense being reduced, but this soil is an investment and I can understand that many people would balk. However, I'm sure most people don't even get as far as comparing prices between store bought mass produced potting soil and making/buying gritty mix. They probably don't even think about the soil at all.

I bought their bonsai mix, which they've developed over the 25 years in business. It is grit, turface and fir. I didn't think to ask about the proportions. Frankly, I figured if they are growing bonsai selling for 5,000 dollars the soil is probably pretty good. I think they are selling $10 bonsai babies in the same mix!

They did not carry the special fertilizer y'all like so much.I have MG. I need gypsum don't I?

Mike, if I need gypsum I"ll let you know.Meanwhile the plants are just going get along with new soil.

And Mike, if you do read this before you go to that nursery, keep an eye open for rizome begonias with gorgeous leaves or orchids. I think I mentioned this in an email I sent, but it may not have gotten to you.
btw, at Bonsai West I loved the "sago pine" There was someting about that squat bulb with three gorgeous leaves hovering over it. It reminded me of a little round woman in a lovely hat. If I wasn't say no to both my kids, I would have bought it. But my vow is no more plants till I repot what I have.

Best,
Marie

Marie, that's kind of how I began with grittier mediums, too... I bought a small bag of bonsai mix from our local garden center/nursery to try! I, too, was shocked at the price tag on a very small bag of what bonsai enthusiasts use! However, that bonsai medium looked so good that I began my quest for the ingredients to make my own, positive I could shave a few dollars off the price by doing so! And so I have.

It takes a little getting used to... adjusting your watering to accommodate, and all... but once you get a feel for everything, and you see how your plants respond... well, I think all the support here speaks for itself!

Al, that's exactly it. And to quote my Dad, "How do you know unless you give something a try?" He used to impress upon me how easy it was to be negative, to say "can't" or "won't"... but you'll never reap any rewards unless you give effort toward them.

So much of what he told me as a child made deep, lasting impressions. He was always so positive, so supportive... he pushed me from the nest so I could soar on my own, but I always felt his strong hand ready to catch me should I waver. I hope I've passed that very same "can do" attitude on to my own children... and I hope it shows up here, too. :-)

Mike, you've already got the knowledge base to be extremely successful in growing those bulbs. I know you'll enjoy their easy care and easy bloom! And if you've ever wanted to try your hand at pollination, the Hippeastrum flower is the perfect place to begin. We all know them as Amaryllis bulbs, but their name is actually Hippeastrum, and the types you've purchased are more likely Hybrids with variety names such as "Apple Blossom" or "Red Lion", etc...

If you have any questions, I'm only an email away, Mike! I'd be thrilled to help you with any bulb questions you may have! :-)

Julie, welcome to the wonderful world of container gardening! There is so much excellent information to be had by reading through some of the past threads in this forum... and there's a support group of folks here only too happy to help you in any way you need!

The best starting point I can recommend is reading Al's thread on Container Soils - Water Movement & Retention #12. It's the most popular and informative thread this forum has ever had, and it's been filled to capacity 12 times! That says a lot!

There's no reason to be overwhelmed by all the Gritty Mix information... take it slow, do a little reading... once you understand the HOW and WHY of it, all the other details fall easily into place.

And with such a great support group waiting in the wings to help, failure is not an option! :-)

Hi Marie,
you will need to add gypsum. And it's best to mix it in before adding the plant.

""I would have bought it. But my vow is no more plants till I repot what I have.""

Please let me know how to stick to this rule.. Because i'm sure we've all decided this at one time or another, but yet the darn plants still end up following us home. LOL!

Good to see things are coming together for you!
JoJo

Hello Marie. I would like also welcome you to the container forum. I have been a member for about 8 or so years. First I hung out in the nature forums under a different user name. But then i stumbled on to this forum and Al's potting soil knowledge. I have been a gardener for a very long time, but not a very good one. I grew allot stuff in containers with meager results at best. I'm a slow leaner. The people here like Al and others had lots of patience with me. When I switched to the 5.1.1 for my outside containers the results were nothing short of amazing. It too me a while to locate the ingredients for the gritty, but it was sure worth it. I would post some pics but I can't seem to figure out photo buckets new format. I told you I was a slow learner! :) There are people here who write for garden magazines. They won't let you know who they are. But you kind of figure it out after a while. I'm from the north shore of mass. I have lived in southern maine now for 26 years. I get my turface from john deer landscapes, and my granigrit from Andys harware, I buy my pine bark by the small truck load. I sift it myself. If I can be of any help at all to you please let me know. Happy gardening! filix.

Oh, I'm brightened up, Marie. ;o)

One tip: For economic reasons, commercial bonsai soils are usually not screened so they don't hold perched water. I can't say that is the case with what you have purchased, but you'll probably have to be a little more careful about watering than you would need to be with the gritty mix. Still, what you have should offer noticeable improvement over most bagged, peat based soils. Now we need to get you started on a good fertilizer program.

When you said "WE" went to the bonsai shop, was it with someone from the forum - just curious.

Best luck! Don't expect immediate miracles because of the season, but you should really start to see improvement once the days lengthen after the equinox and on into summer.

Al

Hi Al,
So, lets get started with the fertilizer program!
My family went with me. We got there minutes before they closed but it was a fantasy land.
Only 25 minutes from home, very easy drive.
I'm glad I went ahead and bought it. It could have been weeks before I got all the other ingredients together, and with me I have to do things while I'm interested. Not infrequetnly, half done projects languish forever with me.

mt

Wow! I love that enthusiasm. I really do! It's so much more fun to be around enthusiastic people who are looking forward with a positive attitude.

OK - here's Marie's reading assignment. When you're done with that, if there's anything you don't understand, just ask and your 'entire support group' will have it covered. ;o) Even if you don't happen to have enough 'background' to understand a large part of it - don't worry. It's better to understand the how and why of what makes things work, but even if just following proven directions is what it takes, we can do that and you can learn on the job. You'll have your friends & family envious over your plants by summer's end .... no problem. ;o)

Al

'"For economic reasons, commercial bonsai soils are usually not screened so they don't hold perched water".

Is that suppose to say that they DO hold perched water because they are not screened Al? Sorry The one they use is not screened and even a bit dusty.

I will say that the mix sold there is much better than most bagged mixes, but for me it still held water way to long. It will not allow me to grow plants in a cool room in winter while it stays damp for days on end. The use of a fan does help a bit, but not good enough for me.
The ingredients are very fine indeed and yet many at that shop will say I shouldn't be to concerned over it. I guess that is if one is use to growing in mixes that stay wet longer than the gritty mix I use.

It is much different and I just can't grow in it, even after asking them how to.I have already lost 2 jades in it, a gardenia and a citrus. It can be a different experience for someone else and maybe the best soil for the next person to use.
Of course, as much as one of the workers there is my friend, he is still trying to convince me to use peaty mixes, has great success with it while at times showing me many of their Bonsai's that do well in it.

I am not saying it will not work for you, and that is is not a good mix. By comparison to most bagged mixes, I will say it is better than bagged mixes in some ways.

Marie, give it a shot and ask the Bonsai shop owner and workers how to work with it. I strongly suggest that you let them help you since they are the ones that make it and seem to grow everything they have just fine. They know the secret to using this stuff.

You can even post a close up picture of it here to get our opinion.

If this mix does not work for you, you will have me around to make you some of the gritty mix I use, or even get the 3 supplies you need and show you how to make it.

If I wasn't so tired I would continue, but I do have to say a special goodnight to my friends. You know who you are:-)

Mike

I will use the bonsai west mix for my indoor houseplants that may be more moisture tolerant than succulents. I have the begonias and few others that I bet will be happy in anything other than what they are in now.

Maybe I was a bit quick to buy it.I now have two offers to help me get the supplies for the gen-u-ine mix and mix them. I think I will have a gritty mix party. Anyone who wants to drive to Lexington MA just let me know and I'll arrange the refreshments.

What about mixing the gritty mix half and half with the bonsai mix. I bet that would be very close to the 5-1-1-
mix.
Have you two Mikes/Michaels met one another?
Marie

I just read a great tagline utilized by a semi-hydroponic grower... it goes a little something like this:

"Better growing through science and logic!"

Just wanted to share that, because that's what we're all about! :-)

Maire ask Have you two Mikes/Michaels met one another?
Yes. LOL thou my name isn't Mike and the next time he leaves something in my car I'm holding it for ransom my way of saying thanks to Mike for the two potted items

Not to go off topic but for Marie; Ref to your amaryllis bulbs, Can we think of them as a plant ? If you follow a regular watering schedule you can have an outcome that you can enjoy. The mix you got from B West will work as well as the mix ingredients I got from the other shops and enjoyable leg work.

I wont waste time on which is the better mix as there both in a sense nearly the same. What most people would reference as a free or open draining. An experience and result I know of is one benefit ( there are more) for a free draining soil is ****** IF **** I where to water my plants every day I would not over watering it. HOWEVER I find daily watering to be true for the plant that we call Amaryllis. A second advantage is, If I don't water everyday the plant will still grow and have a good result(flower) YET What I really do is water on a regular schedule depending on the season outside and inside temps the watering times will vary.

Al I didn't read the/her reading assignment for fertilizing thank you for the link For her efforts in being more plant growing complete I drew a little drawing

{{gwi:55454}}

Mike is that the hostage ? Just let me know if it's a taker.

I'm clearer on the potting medium, but....very confused about the Michael and not-mike. I'm not going to worry about it, although if not-mike wants to clarify who he really please go ahead.

In any case, I'm enjoying the advice, no matter who the source is.
mt

Marie: Please excuse the wording I use that could be confusing you. Perhaps it would be better to un-confuse you if or when you decide to hold the gritty mix party. I'm VERY VERY glad you had some time and got to see some parts of Bonsai West, I think of them as a very eye pleasing tip of (the plant lovers) ice-berg. As the smaller New England Bonsai is closer to me. If by chance Bonsai West doesn't have something that would be in a gritty mix Mike updates me and I in turn go to the bit smaller but still a great NE Bonsai shop to get it.

I like that quick re-post Jodi, as just the other day someone understood me when I repeated. It isn't what we can grow, it's what we cant get to grow with the lengths we use to succeed.

I see why I thought you were a mike....just drop the r &l from your moniker. My brain does things like that.
Marie

A new friend on this forum bought a bag of chicken grit for me. Onto the turface!
I'm gonna see if Bonsai West will take back the large unopened bag of its soil. Of course I"ll have to buy something with the credit....

Yes they should have MVP turface available in different weight sized bags There will be a second market price mark up as you may already know I don't know about exchange policies there never had to make one but an exchange for MVP with the bagged soil sounds like a plan. Suggestion Stop in at any home depot or lowes and pick up a bag of perlite on your way back should be in the indoor lawn and garden dept inside.

Well I just joined to say it IS overwhelming, in part due to the style of this forum not being able to "sticky" important posts for easy reference. It is NOT helpful at all to read the inventor of this mix chastising someone "my first post..." when a search returns HUNDREDS of threads and posts about this mix.

Moreover, sarcastic comments like "Hmmm - I think that since Steve already has the ingredients and has noted that some come in 50 lb bags, it's a good bet he's aware of the weight of the materials and has set that aside as an obstacle." are rude and unnecessary. The person was CLEARLY referring to carrying around pots and just because someone like Steve maneuvered 50 lb bags of crap is irrelevant.

Further, perhaps you infer Stevie will have no problem with the weight and feel this entitles you to insult women (and others) however, post Jessicasgrowincitrus "my first time transplanting" CLEARLY STATES SHE CANNOT MOVE HER TRANSPLANTED POT and will have to RE-DO her entire transplant.

Seems to me for such an ~expert you would mention that newbies should be placing their pots on a wheeled device instead of insulting someone for being concerned over the end weight of a SMALL container after BREAKING HER SHOULDER a couple years ago. eyeroll

I am an experienced gardener, and the concept of the mix is not a challenging one. Moreover I know how to "fish" not just "eat fish". But having to sift through hundreds of postings to uncover the brand names, substitutions, locations, qualifiers, qualifiers of what you need to replace in terms of nutrients if you go with a replacement additive etc etc etc takes DAYS.

I've spent one entire 24 hour day period of time this weekend just trying to come up with a shopping list and "if this" , "then that" document when a simple LINK to a LIST of Brand names and ratios and nutrient needs would have taken care of it by these all knowing experts. Not saying this is the fault of the members because of the code of this board, but all this pearl clutching over other members finding it difficult and the condescending, smug insults are beyond.

Rather aggressive tone you have there, but welcome to the fray.

The "fish" comment was mine, and I don't think it was offered in any condescending fashion.

Unfortunately, Brands aren't consistently available around the country, nor are the actual products
consistent from bag to bag, season to season - as we've learned regarding the bark component.
This makes it difficult to recommend a Brand or a store.

Josh

I was formerly Idabean. Before I understood Houzzś uninformative registration I re named myself.

It is 4 years later and I am reviewing this post which unexpectedly grew to 90 responses! I only got 1/3 of the way through, so I dont know when I dropped off. I still have a small garbage can of turface; think I ran out of grit and I know the pine fines are long gone. Mike was so generous in sharing his supplies.

I have a beautiful ceramic pot I want to plant a rose in and of course I thought of the gritty mix. I started searching the topic here on GW and thatś how I came across this post.

Iĺl start another thread on the rose if I dont find what I need ..... but I bet I will.

Somewhere in the early posts a person commented she had broken her shoulder and that arm was very weak. About 2 1/2 years ago I managed to fall over a retaining wall and break my shoulder and wrist (how did I not hit my head?) talk about cramping oneś style. So I rely on my husband more and try to be reasonable with myself. I have also had both knees replaced. I can walk now without pain! So I can get to gritty mix ingredients, even if I cant carry them entirely by myself.

This time Iḿ beginning my search in September, which is a lot nicer in New England than January.

Have you tried posting over on the Rose Forum?

Give them a try. You might not need to bother with gritty mix. Do you plan to grow your potted rose outdoors all winter?

Try posting over there, there are many helpful people who are avid Rose growers.

Jane

Roses

Thanks, Jane. Yes, I hope it will live outdoors in the pot this winter. I think thatś taking a chance....Of course I could just put it in the ground and pot it next spring. No reason to be in a big hurry about it....

It is risky as ceramic/clay pots will break over winter. I lived in NY my whole life and grew many plants out on our deck year round. Never tried roses. I used plastic pots as they will expand and contract. I found some pots which had a Styrofoam liner. It can be done.

Try the Rose forum and see if you get any responses. I tried a quick Google search and a lot of links came up. Here's one to look at.

Jane

Heirloom Roses in Containers

Hi, Marie! I remember you frequenting the fora a few years back - sorry to learn of the fall.

What are your questions?

Al