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alan_oz

This bonsai guy doesn't like Turface

alan_oz
10 years ago

Clearly not a big fan. Hydrophobic?

Here is a link that might be useful: Turface problems

Comments (116)

  • JoppaRich
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This whole thing just sounds like one of those "common wisdom" things where someone at some point said "we have to check X" and then 10 people later we've got "Y is terrible because of X" without anyone actually having had a problem with X.

    I've had nothing like this with turface. I generally find it stays a little wetter than I'd like.

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Joppa,

    Well that is your experience. The Bonsai guy is a published professional. Has anybody commenting here written any books? He is paid for his advice. Some opinions have more weight than others.

  • JoppaRich
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The fact that he's paid for his advice doesn't make his advice any better. His research boils down to "we didn't water enough, so a soil that should be deeply watered didn't work correctly"

    There are a lot of us using soil with turface, and finding the exact opposite of what hes saying.

  • monarda_gw
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'd like to know where to buy turface in Brooklyn.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    He's a published professional, but he's offering an opinion based solely on his observations, not on his or anyone else's scientific findings. Upthread I noted that the very first controlled experiment I reviewed indicated that container capacity and available water both INCREASED with the addition of arcillite (calcined clay) to pine bark, with no increase in unavailable water. You can draw the conclusion then that arcillite yields more available water and less unavailable water than pine bark.

    I'm also communicating with a bonsai friend who has spent more than 50 years tinkering with container media, and whose master's thesis was written on the subject of the same (container media). Neither his observations nor mine coincide with those put forth insofar as root health is concerned. No one is saying that one person's observations are any more accurate than another, or that anyone is misinterpreting any observations. What is important is reconciling the cause effect relationship. Because of the disparity in observations, it's very likely the cause only occurs under a specific set of circumstances, with several possibilities already having been discussed on this thread.

    I have no stake in what others might choose to believe here, but I do know you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into, so I won't even try. It's much easier to be a believer than a thinker. Hence, so many more believers than thinkers.

    Al

  • jpaz
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just some personal observations.

    I have been growing cacti for some seventy five years - mostly in containers - so my experiences hark back to "the bad old days" of clay pots with broken pot drainage layers in the bottom and the ubiquitous soil mix of 1 part garden loam, 1 part leaf mold and 1 part coarse builder's sand.

    I think the most significant cultivational event for me occured about forty years ago when I switched exclusively to plastic containers and a mineral rich, gritty, soilless mix that was very open and porous in order to insure superior drainage and root aeration.That mix consisted of screened coarse pumice and shredded pine bark - a mix that over the years has consistently produced robust, healthy plants that produce an abundance of flowers and fruit - in other words optimum growth. Inasmuch as I specialize in cacti of the Brazilian Caatinga - a region of very long periods of great aridity and stifling heat - I mostly use a mix of 70% pumice and 30% pine bark. I eschew peat. I have never used Turface or similar media.

    JP

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    JP,

    I have been growing cacti for 38 years, and I couldn't agree more. Now maybe other products are better for certain plants, but it's ironic for every success, some one posts a couple failures. Not one failure posted using pumice. Now that says a lot for sure. I think the biggest lesson is that their is no such thing as a universal mix.
    Of course many will again try not to blame the mix, but the way it was made, the way it was watered, everything but the mix, It's becoming an inside joke!
    I think every plant group is different. And turface, or peat is fine for some plants, Maybe even desirable. I know with blueberries, peat moss is fantastic. Potting mixes should be based on plant groups.

  • jpaz
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Agreed Drew.

    For me, the very fibrous and tough root structure of "Caatingan" cacti makes them ideally suited for the mix I employ and the growing environment I provide. Of course, inasmuch as they are *CAM plants I employ a completely different watering regimen than those who grow, for instance, C3 plants - it is futile to water them during the daytime when their stomata are closed, so I water them at night during their active growing season.

    Here are some examples of my mix at work:

    {{gwi:55583}}
    Roots ramified throughout the root ball on long potted mature Discocactus heptacanthus

    {{gwi:55584}}
    Spontaneously sprouted seedling - Melocactus zehntneri

    Seed grown plantlets (I employ my mix for seed growing exclusively):

    {{gwi:55585}}

    {{gwi:55587}}

    * Crassulacean Acid Metabolism (CAM)

    Most discussions relating to CAM get very technical very quickly. Here is one online reference, in this case relating specifically to cacti, that is fairly simple and straight forward:

    What Does CAM Mean to Your Cacti? by Patsy M. Miller, Ph.D.

    Edit: Zone 9 - sorry.

    JP

    This post was edited by jpaz on Wed, Jan 15, 14 at 19:12

  • jpaz
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I like to periodically and randomly check the health of the root systems of my plants (and coincidentally the efficiency of my mix) by gently squeezing the sides of the pot and sliding the entire plant out of the container. I expect the root ball to look like this:

    {{gwi:55588}}

    {{gwi:55589}}

    I then slide the plant back into the container ..... and life goes on. Of course I only do this for plants in containers up to 4" - they get too unwieldy after that.

    {{gwi:55590}}

    JP

  • nil13
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    pumice is awesome for cacti and succulents? well duh.

    That said, the Missouri Gravel Bed mix has been giving me pretty good results for cacti and succulents as well.

  • jpaz
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Of course I have mainly used, and continue to use, pumice because it is readily available to me. If it became unavailable, I would undoubtedly switch to Turface for it seems to possess some excellent properties.

    JP

    This post was edited by jpaz on Wed, Jan 15, 14 at 17:58

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "I would undoubtedly switch to Turface - it seems to possess excellent properties. "

    The only scientific study where it was used as a growing medium, it finsihed dead last, right behind sand.

  • Ohiofem 6a/5b Southwest Ohio
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Drew51: The study you cited is not the only scientific study ever done on using Turface as a growing medium. Nil13 cited two in this thread (examining TerraGreen and Arcillite, which are calcined clay just like Turface). Google Scholar lists more than 1,800 articles discussing "calcined clay container growing" published just since 2010. There are 86 results specifically discussing the Turface brand.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Scholarly articles on Turface in container growing

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Drew - would you like to actually READ the study I referred to above? It's completely the reverse of what you're suggesting in saying "The only scientific study where it was used as a growing medium, it finished dead last ....". That suggests there was only one study, which we know is not true. I'd really like to read that study (please forward or post a link?), and I would also like to point out that your experience using these gritty soils and ingredients is rather limited, according to what you've said. You're naturally easily swayed because of your inexperience using soils like the gritty mix and Turface as a soil fraction. I'm getting that you've never used Turface at any time?

    "Potting mixes should be based on plant groups." Please expand. What are plant groups ..... trees and cacti and succulents and berries ..... all need different soils?

    You read an article and it sounded reasonable, so you bit. Subsequent to your deciding that Turface is inferior as a soil component (never having used it?) you look for reasons to support your 'findings'. You've rethought the formula for the gritty mix and made commentary like an old pro, yet you've never even used it.

    Because one bonsai expert holds a particular view doesn't mean that all experts agree. I just received an email that was also copied to Mike H. It's an expert's blog discussion about Akadama (To Akadama, or not to Akadama). In it, the experts invited to comment all disagree on multiple fronts, and even contradict themselves in several places. What it serves to prove is that they can't all be right. So much for consensus. You'd be amazed at how many highly respected bonsai practitioners are employing soils that are barely useable because the grower is weak in the area of soil science and using what someone equally weak has suggested because someone else suggested it was great. That's just how the bonsai community is - no different than any other society that focuses on one plant or one type of plant.

    Al

    This post was edited by tapla on Wed, Jan 15, 14 at 15:15

  • nil13
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Boy, cognitive bias is a PITA.

  • the_yard_guy
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, I guess we all have to agree to disagree on this topic. The bottom line is that each of us should find a soil mix, regardless of ingredients used, that we are comfortable with using and that provide the expected results from our plants.

    As has been pointed out many times by the veteran GW posters, both the gritty mix and the 5-1-1 mix as originally posted by Al should be considered starting points only. All of us who are interested in trying these mixes should feel free to experiment with these mixes and use whatever ingredients we wish. If someone can't find, or does not wish to use, one of the ingredients, typically there are several workable alternatives that will provide similar results.

    You could probably make a list of every ingredient used in both the 5-1-1 or grit mix and at least one 'expert' somewhere will find a reason to disagree with something in those mixes. I have never been to a bonsai show but I would imagine getting a roomful of bonsai fans to unanimously agree on a single "best" soil mixture would be like trying to get a roomful of people to agree on the best brand, make, and model of vehicle. It's not going to happen.

    The fact that other forum members might disagree with what I've decided to use in my mixes does not bother me all that much. If the plants are happy and growing well, and the materials used in the mix are cost effective and readily available, then in my opinion that's what really counts.

    TYG

  • ssmdgardener
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's one thing to disagree on your personal preferences, but it's another to disseminate incorrect science.

    > "The only scientific study where it was used as a growing medium"

    This is demonstrably untrue.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree. I don't really care what grower A, B, or C might choose to do, except to the extent I'd like them to make choices that will lead to a better growing experience, but I do have a keen interest in seeing that growers E-Z get information reliable enough that they can make their own informed decisions.

    Al

  • the_yard_guy
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well said Al. All that we as a group can do is provide and share information and then let other forum members make their own choices on container growing mediums based on that information.

    TYG

  • jodik_gw
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The internet being what it is, anyone can find any information they like to support a particular agenda... but that doesn't necessarily make it true or factual... just because it exists in cyberspace.

    Information really needs vetting to be considered... it must be logical, reasonable, pass critical thought and problem solving skills, and should ring with common sense.

    I have found the concepts Tapla shares to be solidly rooted in science and physics, absolutely workable, logical, and they ring with complete common sense.

    However, some variables will have to be taken into consideration... such as individual environment, amount of time and attention one plans to pay to one's container plants, etc... user error is often overlooked as an issue, but the truth is, more plants are killed by our own errors.

    So far, I have not had any issues with Turface as a portion of my mediums, and will continue to utilize it until Tapla says otherwise... based upon our past relationship as teacher and student, not to mention the respect he has garnered within the gardening community, I trust that what he says has merit.

  • the_yard_guy
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jodi,

    Well said. I agree with you. No matter what topic is being discussed, gardening, auto repair, baking, etc. you can always find someone on the internet who does things differently or presents a different viewpoint. That's just the way it is.

    So if both you and your plants are happy with your current method that's great. If members wish to experiment with different soil mixes and ratios, that's fine too.

    TYG

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "The internet being what it is, anyone can find any information they like to support a particular agenda"

    Wow even soil science has an agenda on the internet!

    "Information really needs vetting to be considered"

    Right like scientific studies by credentialed individuals, and those studies have been presented. What I find puzzling is the throwing out of studies, the dismissing of professional soil companies. As somehow not doing it right. Apparently all of soil science is incorrect.
    I feel one should use what they feel works, but to discredit others who have different opinions I find poor and that often happens in this forum. Your loyalty is admirable, but it's not a contest, or a war, but a seeking of information. I'm interested in soil science to increase knowledge. No one person has a monopoly on that. New discoveries are made daily. I use materials based on experience. I would not use them based on what others tell me is right. I need to see it myself. And I guess that is where we part company.
    I would encourage all to experiment and try to develop techniques that lead to success.
    Turface is a man made fired clay. Other fired clays have been used for thousands of years as a soil amendment so it certainly has merit. All Al offers is a ratio to use. the use of these soil additives has been going on for centuries.
    People differ on what clay works better. The Bonsai guy likes other clay products better, and all this because of a brand of clay? I find this thread hysterical in many ways.
    Especially the last post!

  • powderpuff
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Interesting thread that I ran across doing a search.

    First of all, let me make it crystal clear that I have zero interest in scientific studies whether valid or pseudo, done by people who may or many not have a hidden agenda, and I have zero interest in reading a bunch of long winded scientific posts. I'm just going to make this real simple from my experience last year with 2 varieties. Plumeria and Adeniums. I don't need to hear how all plants have the same needs over and over and over again. I have already heard that at least 100 times on here. I get it, I really do. Some have an agenda and others just have to be right if they spend their entire life on the internet(hint hint) being self promoters.

    Last spring I rounded up all of the ingredients for gritty mix. I got the correct ingredients, and I screened the fines correctly, I sifted the Turface and granite to remove fines and planted around 75 of my Plumeria in it. The rest I planted in the ground, which of course is where they want to be,( ALWAYS, without exception), and the remainder I put in black nursery pots plus some pots I painted white.... and filled them with a good potting soil sold locally that is used by many commercial growers and Plumeria nurseries in this area. I added perlite or pumice to the mix, after putting a single layer of lava rock in the bottom of some of the pots to add weight.

    The Adeniums, I only have 5, but they are fairly large, were all planted in the gritty mix. You need a dolly to move them but they have done fine in it so far.

    I will address the Adeniums first. They all did fine in the gritty mix, although once the roots filled the pot, and they did fairly rapidly, it became hard to feed them with a liquid fertilizer, it just ran right out, leaves got pale and smaller and blooms diminished. I switched to a 9 month time release and a more rapid time release granular and that seemed to solve the problem.

    Moving on to the Plumerias, The ones in the ground grew like weeds and did fine all year. So did the ones in the potting soil with pumice or perlite, about 25% pumice or perlite per pot.

    The ones in the gritty mix had plenty of nice healthy roots until around mid to late June, July, when it began to really get hot here in Florida. Then it was clear they were hot happy at all. The mix was very hot, it became almost impossible to give them enough water even watering sometimes twice a day when temps were in the mid 90's. Their leaves were smaller, paler, some distorted. I took a few out of the pots and was surprised to find very few healthy roots inside the top 2/3 of the pot. Most of the nice healthy roots were at the bottom of the pot or outside the pot where they had escaped and attached to the wet wood of the pallets they were sitting on. I re-potted many of the ones in the gritty and and put them in potting soil...within a week they looked MUCH better. Greener leaves, no limp branches or leaves. A month later they had plumper limbs, bigger leaves. I didn't want to re-pot all of them twice in one year, so I left the rest in the gritty mix but did move them to a shadier location because the temps were several degrees warmer in the gritty pots vs the ones in soil and the pots were side by side.

    I also had to change from a liquid fertilizer. It just ran right through and dried out before the roots had a chance to use it. I switched to a time release and a slow release granular and that did help with the growth and leaf color and size and also helped the deformities of the leaves. I know Turface holds water, it is used to dry up ball fields and golf courses. However, I do NOT believe it releases that water to roots and I do not believe it releases the liquid fertilizer either. I think the Turface stays wet, absorbs the liquid fertilizer( whatever is left after most it runs right though) . I noticed when re-potting that a lot of the turface was covered with salts and had lost some of it's absorbent properties. Before you even ask, YES I flush my pots, a lot!

    So without any long winded pseudo or real scientific studies, this is just from observation of Plumeria in Florida in 3 different situations.... potted in soil with pumice or perlite, planted in the ground and potted in the gritty mix.

    I am well aware that this may work fine with cactus, etc. however, Plumiera, although much like a succulent in some respects, really are not. They are trees that reach large dimensions and grown in humid, tropical locations where the rains are frequent in the summers, then they go dormant during the dry season. When they are actively growing, unless they are newly rooted, they like quite a bit of water.

    Every Plumeria I bought over the summer and into the fall went into potting soil and none had any issues. Needless to say, I will be re-potting all 75 or so trees still in gritty and putting them in potting soil this spring.

    I will add one thing, and this applies to Plumeria only..... newly rooted cuttings rot very easily if too wet until they have a good amount of leaves and roots. The gritty mix is perfect for those. It is next to impossible to rot one in it.

    Edited to state that I will be re-potting about 35 this week and I am going to take photos of each one, whether in soil or gritty and put them on an online album and post the link to the album. I will take photos of each stage of each pot. Judge for yourself which roots you prefer. You will also be able to see that my mix was mixed perfectly.

    This post was edited by powderpuff on Sat, Mar 15, 14 at 21:08

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Powder,
    have you seen Laura's army of Plumeria in Gritty Mix? Her plants really seem to thrive in the mix.

    When you mention the lack of roots in the upper part of the mix, I imagine that is due to a lack of moisture - or rather, consistent moisture. Perhaps a different method of watering would have helped things, too.

    Josh

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    First, well-aerated soils are cooler than poorly aerated soils, so whatever you did or didn't do that allowed the soil temps to get so high, it would have been much worse if the soil had less aeration. The gritty mix is almost infinitely adjustable for water retention by simply varying the ratio between only 2 of the 3 ingredients, so if the soil you built didn't have enough water retention, it's on the grower, not the soil. You said you don't want to be bothered by trying to understand anything scientific, which is probably why you don't understand the concept that allows growers to use well-aerated soils effectively or how to implement it.

    People are free to believe what they want, but that doesn't mean there are valid reasons for all beliefs. I believe your issues are related to grower error, which makes by far the most sense when others in southern locales aren't having the same difficulties you profess to.

    Also, you've established a continuing pattern of mean-spirited comments about me and any of my offerings on the plumeria forum re a wide variety of subject matter which has now bled over to this forum, so I'll just ask others to keep that pattern of behavior in mind as they consider what you had to say.

    Truly good growers are adaptable enough that they can grow plumeria and similar plants in just about any type of medium. Less skilled growers very often have troubles no matter what type of medium or fertilizer they use, and almost always farm the blame out instead of shouldering any responsibility for failures.

    Take care.

    Al

  • nil13
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It always amazes me how people come to conclusions without conducting studies to verify the veracoty of those conclusions. It is very easy to test to see if turface can soak up and release nutrients. Soak some in a nutrient solution and then use that in a gravel mix. Use plain gravel as a control and see which plants show nutrient deficiency first. Considering there have been studies showing that turface has a fondness for phosphorus and thus recomends preloading the turface with a superphosphate solution, I'm fairly confident I can predict how that experiment would unfold.

  • nil13
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I also think it should be mentioned that turface, peat, bark, etc do not absorb plant food. They hold onto the ions that plants use like a sweater holds onto a balloon. There is no absorbing. If the ion touches an oppositely charged surface, it sticks.

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Everybody has an opinion. I form my own conclusions. Much like the dirt docter. Here's what he think's of peat!

    Conclusion:
    Research has shown that we now have many alternatives to peat moss that work better at lower cost and do not have the environmental consequences.
    Peat moss is environmentally bankrupt in today's gardening environment and shouldn't be used except for storing materials that need protection from rotting.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Peat moss use should end

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I guess pine bark isn't much better according to the dirt doctor! I love this discussion it's like a scab at a union meeting or a conservative at the church of liberalism.
    Emotion over logic at it's best. Hilarious!

    Here is a link that might be useful: Peat Moss & Pine Bark Issues

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here is a reply I often leave when the non-renewable thing comes up:
    "Sorry, but I'm not buying the non-renewable lament. In Canada alone, there are more than 270 million acres of harvestable peat bogs. If we make the conservative guess that the harvestable portions of these bogs are 10 feet deep, that means there are probably more than 900 billion cu. ft. available for harvest, just in Canada! That doesn't even take into consideration what's available in Europe, Asia, or places like New Zealand where they also mine peat. Canada currently has mining/harvesting operations underway on approximately 40 thousand acres or about .014% (that reads 14 one thousandths of 1 percent)."

    Check the math - it's accurate and conservative. It's more likely that the next ice age will be upon us and glaciers will have covered what's available before we even use a noticeable percentage.

    Renewable/non-renewable = moot.

    Al

  • JerryVentura Jordan
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My plumeria loves turface. I bought two, gave one to the neighbor and potted mine up in gritty, the neighbor planted theirs in the ground. It's been two years, they are both the same size but mine is sturdier looking (big boned), and it decided not to go dormant this year (my fig either). I'm getting ready to mix enough gritty to fill a forty gal container to put the plumeria in and let it get big.

    I think this thread has been a lot like reading reviews on Yelp. You have all these people that have had a great experience and then you have two that complained they had to wait for ever to get seated on Valentines Day, it was crowded, noisy and the waiter was rushing and gave them bad service.

    I have grown plants in all sorts of potting soil, some very nice indeed, but they always seem to need a lot of looking after. I chose to go with the gritty crowd and repotted everything, I've never looked back. I had major back surgery six months ago and it's a long recovery, my family has not been that attentive to my plants, seriously, they kept forgetting to water them and I'm not sure they got any fertilizer for two months. Not one died, some wilted now and then, but they all have survived and are looking great. I don't think you can get much easier than that.

    So that's my experiments, it works for me, if you don't like turface use something else, I don't like granite, I use pumice, if gritty ain't working for you, find what does and make the best of that. I think it's kind of pointless to keep telling people that gritty mix is bad when it clearly works great for 99% of them.

    Jerry

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well said, Jerry, well said!
    I hope you're back to full strength very soon.

    Josh

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm glad you said that, Jerry. Usually, if people report a bad experience with either the gritty mix or the 5:1:1 mix, there's a reason for it that's unrelated to the soil. In many cases, people who have approached it haphazardly quickly turn to attacking the soil instead of admitting they must have done something that didn't allow them to take advantage of what the soil offers. No one ever said there wouldn't be some effort involved if you choose to make your own soils.

    If I suggest that someone's inability to grow things well in the gritty mix probably has more to do with the person than the mix, it looks like I'm in denial. If a pot overheats, that's on the grower, not the soil - especially because soils with superior gas exchange are virtually always cooler in a given situation than poorly aerated soils. If someone's husband refuses to make the gritty mix because he thinks it's too heavy, and too much work to screen, that isn't the soil's, or my, or anyone's fault. That's a case where someone has decided the effort isn't worth the reward, which is fine ..... but why not just say that?

    I hope you're back on track and up to full speed soon, Jerry!

    Al

    This post was edited by tapla on Sat, Feb 22, 14 at 13:36

  • Ernie
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "In many cases, people who have approached it haphazardly quickly turn to attacking the soil instead of admitting they must have done something that didn't allow them to take advantage of what the soil offers. "

    I'm reminded of recipe reviews in which the reviewer gives the dish a one star rating because it didn't turn out well...and then goes on to say that they substituted two or three ingredients, left out another entirely, baked the dish at 475 rather than 325, etc.

  • JerryVentura Jordan
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Shazaam, that was perfect, I was laughing, I've read those reviews.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    As the house cook for 35 years, I can relate. ;-)

    Al

  • powderpuff
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Laura's plants are lovely, however they are not all in gritty mix. One person's success does not mean it's a good mix and she could have and would have the same success with a good soil. Plus who knows what will happen 2-3 years from now in the mix. Stunted growth? Sow decline? Gangly, thin branches?

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Powderpuff,
    in 2 - 3 years, the plants will be in fresh mix and appropriately-sized pots. But I'm sure Laura will pop in and tell us more.

    Josh

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "One person's success does not mean it's a good mix" is true, only because good and experienced growers are able to achieve acceptable results with something less than the ideal to work with; but one person's failure (yours) doesn't mean it's a poor mix, either - let's be logical and fair, shall we? Would you allow that the success of a hundred or a thousand growers in a particular soil just might mean there's a possibility the soil has merit? And who really WANTs to work with something that requires significant compromise? Not me. If a grower has reported problems growing in a variety of mixes as you have, PP, it leaves one to wonder if it's not the grower rather than the various soils used that are instrumental in an ongoing growing experience fraught with less than stellar results. IMO you're not yet qualified to predict what success another grower might or might not enjoy as a return on their efforts, especially since you haven't yet found the path to success, and the grower you're talking about consistently produces top quality results without any difficulty beyond her own physical exertion. You have to work at growing well - it doesn't just happen because we wish real hard.

    It's easy to make wild conjectures without founding about what another grower's plants (that are always top shelf healthy) might look like in a number of years, but if I were you I'd be more concerned about my own house than Laura's.

    Al

  • Loveplants2 8b Virginia Beach, Virginia
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello Everyone !!

    Well.. Thank you Mike for sending me here!! My ears were bothering me all day and I thought it was the altitude !! Lol...

    My trees ( Plumeria ) C&S , Tropicals , Conifers grow in a fast draining mix which can be labeled as "Al's Gritty Mix" or "Al's 5-1-1" or my own version of a "modified Gritty Mix " or " modified 5-1-1". None of my trees are planted in a " bagged mix".

    I haven't counted how many trees are planted in " what type" mix because when I root prune or " pot up" they all get new mix and I either change the container size or if and when they get to big, they get root pruned to stay in the same container size so they don't get to heavy for me to handle . I have over 150 Plumeria and 40 or so Adenium and many other types of Tropicals etc. All of these are brought inside for the winter, so I make sure the Plumeria (which are trees..) and all of the others don't get to big. This fall, I had to make a few decisions and cut back on a few older trees because I couldn't fit them inside my house anymore. They had to start the whole process over again as cuttings . These trees have already been in a fast draining mix for several years and they are doing great! ( no suffering from thin branches or stunted growth and they certainly are not in any slow decline). My trees have never been healthier and the amount of blooms tell me they are happy!

    I make my mix according to what I have learned here on these forums. Al has posted great information for all of us to take and learn the basic methods. All I do is apply what I have learned and make it fit my needs. ( which includes the use of Turface!!). These threads are full of wonderful information and I am thankful that it is available to me to continue to learn and see my trees flourish.

    My trees are very healthy and I do appreciate all of the nice comments that I receive about my growing abilities... If I could tell you all how my plants / trees as well as yours or anyone's plants would perform in 2-3 years, I would be a millionaire! Lol... There are to many factors that play into how any plant or tree will perform ( watering habits, fertilizers, sun exposure, environment ) . I just know that my trees / plants have the best start because they are in a great mix that I have made by hand using the tools learned here on these forums.

    Have a great night!!

    Laura

  • maple_grove_gw
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well I for one am going out this weekend to buy a few bags or Turface. It has always worked very well for me. I've found that, if anything, my gritty mix holds more water than I would have expected, many times it holds more water than my 5:1:1 (which made with screened bark 1/8 - 1/2 inch).

    Thanks, Al, for sharing your wisdom over the years. Even if you don't want to agree with some of his conclusions, you've gotta recognize that he goes to a lot of effort to help folks.

    -Alex

    This post was edited by maple_grove on Sat, Mar 15, 14 at 6:39

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Something I learned a long time ago is that you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. When I find a post that's intended to produce more heat than light, I try to use the folly in it as a lead-in to providing something in the way of information that has the potential to be used by be others in a positive way. It's hard to earn the mantel of 'helper' by maligning the work of others.

    Al

  • powderpuff
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Tapla said above..."Something I learned a long time ago is that you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."

    Kind of like when you said that all plants in zone 9 in black cans will die if not shaded? You do recall saying that right? I suggest you take a drive through central FL, down to South FL in zones 10 and 10-11 and look at all those nurseries in that have black cans sitting out in full sun. THOUSANDS of plants and they are just fine. But of course they are all in good soil based mix.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Quotes can trip you up, but that's not at all what I said. What I actually said (in another thread) was, "BTW - Soil temperatures are determined by a LOT of variables. Growing in black cans in z9 is going to kill roots if you can't shade them - period." That's quite different than the misquote "..... all plants in zone 9 in black cans will die if not shaded". The thousands of plants in black cans are placed strategically in rows and packed tightly together so the top mass of the plants (foliage) shades the plants near it. Look closely next time you go to a nursery and see how the owner is very careful to arrange the plants so the cans are shaded. There is a chapter covering that and things like blow overs (because that exposes the entire can to a much larger sun load) in every nursery ops manual to help growers understand how to prevent $ losses due to high root temps.

    I then went on to offer further explanation about what drives root temperatures so other growers wouldn't be misled into thinking that the gritty mix was somehow the cause of high soil temps. It's not - it's actually a much cooler soil than darker soils and soils with inferior gas exchange. The rest of what I said:

    "What drives soil temperatures is sun load on the container, area of container surface exposed to direct sun, the container's color/light transmittance (degree of opacity/translucence), the color of the soil at the surface (dark soils absorb more heat than light soils), and how well the soil exchanges gases. The two characteristic of the soil that actually matter most are soil color and rate of gas exchange. The lighter the soil, the less heat it absorbs at its surface. The greater its gas exchange, the greater the effect of evaporative cooling. The gritty mix is lighter in color than most other soils and has better gas exchange than anything you've grown in, so with all other things being equal, there isn't anything you're apt to grow in that wouldn't find you dealing with much warmer soil temps than the gritty mix. It runs 10-15* cooler on hot days than even the 5:1:1 mix, which is another well aerated soil."

    If you can't shade black nursery cans in zone 9, and they get a full sun load, you can expect root death on the exposed side of the containers - mainly the south and west side. That doesn't necessarily mean the death of the entire organism, but it certainly isn't good for the plant's vitality. We talk about that with great regularity on this forum and on many others as well.

    As I read through this thread and looked over the poor reviews you give the gritty mix and the problems you reported starting in June of last year, and as long as we're doing research into past posts to check what the other said, I sort of remembered you giving the gritty mix glowing reviews last summer, on this forum, even. Does this sound familiar to you?

    •Posted by powderpuff 10 (My Page) on Mon, Jul 22, 13 at 18:08

    "mrbutcher... Your tomato plants look great! I am in shock over that video and must show it to my husband!!! I found the products, including Pine Bark Fines. However, the bark inside the bags was wet so we had to spread a tarp and let it dry. Then sift it once to get the small pieces, then again to eliminate the dust and tiny particles. Then sift the grit and turface. Turface and grit are heavy, so he has to help me. It takes a lot to fill 5-7 gallon pots.
    If I even mention gritty mix he glares at me since he's the one that has to load and unload 50# bags of grit and Turface and move the pots.

    I love the mix [my emphasis] but in pots over 5 gallons it's just too heavy to be practical unless you are very young and/or a body builder and he is neither. Maybe if I show him what you did to get the mulch, he won't gripe so much. lol! I have potted over 100, most in 3-7 gallon pots and I'm out of the mix and some need re-potted.

    When I mentioned that 4-5 needed to go into 10-15 gallon pots he said don't even think about using that mix for those.
    The next day he came home with a yard of potting soil and put it in a big pile in a corner of the yard..... sigh.

    He said you want those in 10-15 gallon pots, there is your soil. :(" color> Quote ends

    ******************************************************************

    By this report, it really looks like at the end of last July you were quite happy with the mix, but your helper balked at the effort it takes to make it, and you couldn't do it yourself, or wouldn't. I understand that completely. For some, the effort it takes to make it just isn't worth it, but that doesn't make it a bad or unproductive soil. Just sayin' .....

    Al

  • Seth
    7 years ago

    Hi Tapla,


    I know this thread is old, but has your opinion changed regarding using Pumice in place of Turface? I recently moved and am in need for more Turface but was reminded of this "issue" where one considered Turface too hydrophobic. And then this whole thread got off track and I'm not sure if you ever landed on a final opinion after hearing back from your expert Bonsai friend.


    Just thought I'd check before I go out and buy a new 50lb bag of Turface! I do love your gritty mix but am always up to improve it if you find ways.


    thanks for all your continued efforts!

  • Seth
    7 years ago

    Thanks for the reply!


    i guess it's safe to say (at least for now) it was an anomaly for Mike. I'll grab a new bag then! Love love love the gritty mix. Can't thank you enough for all your teachings!

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    7 years ago

    Thank you. Your kind words are appreciated; and I'm glad you find value in my offerings.

    Al

  • westes Zone 9b California SF Bay
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    @drew51 did you ever finish your experiment comparing turface to akadama? Do you have photos of the plants raised in each medium after one year?

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    6 years ago

    It was kinda inconclusive. The turface worked better, I think it can be a useful product. I changed my mind about it. What's on paper, and what you see with your own eyes. I still don't use it, but would consider it a good alternative. The Akadama I got didn't look right, so I'm discarding the results. Plus I could not really grow enough, have a control. The experiment got away from me. I have come to the conclusion that the best school of thought, is the school of hard knocks, try it and decide yourself. Recently I have been grafting peaches, and here again I feel the experts are missing some key points. I went by the book and all grafts failed for 2 years on peaches which are fairly hard to graft. I talked to a local guy, and he gave me about the opposite advice, so I tried it, and it worked, worked like a charm! I almost gave up grafting peaches. Anyway if you don't dig in you'll never learn nothing.