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drscottr

2015 Corn test - design help and participation invited.

drscottr
9 years ago

I get more enjoyment from sweet corn grown in the garden than anything else I grow each year. However, I haven't been able to decide which is the best variety from a pure eating experience perspective. Therefore, this year I'm going to test 14 varieties. If any one else wants to trade fresh ears and be part of the comparison testing drop me a note. I live north of Baltimore.

First the Supersweets

Day 1 and 8 (4/26 & 5/2)) XtraTender 274 and Vision
Day 15 XtraTender 277A and Summer sweet Multiglow 7112R
Day 22 Summer Sweet Multiglow 7401 & Xtra Tender 2573
Wk Day 29 Nirvana

Then the rest

Day 36 Silver Queen
Day 43 Montauk and Honey Select
Day 50 Montauk
Day 57 Montauk, Honey Select, Allure, and Mattappoissette.
Day 64 (June 27) Montauk and Gold Nuggett

Each planting is between 30 and 90 stalks planted at 8" and 2 foot row spacing in raised beds with excellent soil and drip irrigation. The first plantings will be through biodegradable plastic mulch and with row covers initially.

This schedule should give me plenty of corn for Labor day (day 57 planting) and a nice variety coming in all summer from approx 7/ 10 on - maybe earlier.

Open to other suggestions on varieties, planning, etc. Flaws in my logic on what can be grown together are also helpful.

Scott

Comments (21)

  • zeedman Zone 5 Wisconsin
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'll state right up front that I am far from an expert on corn, and there are several who post here who are... but here's my 2 c's (well, maybe 3 ).

    Corn is wind pollinated, and is also the one vegetable where crossing this year will influence the flavor this year. Because of those issues, it is poorly suited for mass comparison plantings of numerous varieties in close proximity.

    I observe the staggered planting dates... was this an attempt to avoid the crossing issue? I have not checked the DTM's of the listed varieties, but for staggered planting to be effective, you would need to arrange the planting sequence from shortest DTM to longest. Where many DTM's are grouped close together, you would not be likely to get an accurate representation of their color & flavor if naturally wind pollinated, unless you are able to plant them in widely separated sites, or spread the trial out over several years. Note that the length of your warm growing season may limit the number of varieties you can grow in a single year, using staggered plantings; so it may take you several years to work your way through the entire list.

    Most supersweets have long DTM's, so they would probably be a poor choice to lead off the rotation. They are also not as tolerant of cool soils as SU and SE varieties; planting them in DTM sequence would push them later into the season & should overcome this issue.

    Even with staggered DTM's, since tasseling of individual plants will often be spread out over a period of time, you might still get some overlap. To avoid this, you could cut off the tassels of the previous variety, once the silks begin to appear on the next variety in the sequence. This might result in some loss of productivity, but would give more accurate taste results.

    Alternatively, you could bag tassels, and pollinate by hand. While hand-pollination would take a fair amount of time & effort, it would overcome many potential problems in your trial. It would give you the most accurate taste results, regardless of how many varieties are grown. It would eliminate the need to plant in DTM sequence. It would also free up a considerable amount of space... to get good ear fill, wind-pollinated corn needs to be planted in blocks; but if you are bagging & hand pollinating, you could plant as little as a row of each variety. The space savings would allow you to test even more varieties, or to use more space for other vegetables. IMO, it is the only reasonably way to conduct a sweet corn trial as large as the posted list.

  • drscottr
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Zeedman,

    I appreciate your input and I'm far from an expert as well. I did attempt to address the cross pollination issue as follows:

    1) I have grouped the SH2 varieties together at the beginning of the season. I also lined them up from shortest to longest DTM. I spoke to the corn experts at Harris and Rupp and both insisted that one can grow SH2 varieties together without effecting the taste of the individual species.

    2) I grouped the SU, Se, and Syn varieties together as well with the later planting dates. I used very long DTM Silver Queen as the first non-SH2 to be planted. These plants should be dropping pollen about 20 days after my last SH2 variety. I then plant various Syn and Se varieties the rest of the summer. Again, the experts claimed that the SE, SU, and Syn varieties can be planted together.

    As for the first early corn, i did use Vision and Xtratender 274A. I have experience with Vision planting it on 4/22 - 4/26 the past few years with success. The expert at Harris insisted that 274A would be even better and would do equally well in the early season. The Vision taste early has been good but not great. I'd like to see how the 274 tastes.

    I appreciate your input. I am going to ask the experts to clarify the pollen drift issue. There seems to be some confusion - they are clear that the co-growing of the varieties will not cause reversion to field corn taste but I want to understand if the pollen flying between varieties will lead to a taste in between the two varieties?

    Can I put a cloth screen with reemay or agribon between or around the varieties to reduce drift?

    Zeedman, I look forward to your thoughts. Digdirt, you're one of the most experienced folks here and would appreciate your advice as well as anyone elses.

    Thanks

    Scott

  • zeedman Zone 5 Wisconsin
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Scott, you have raised an interesting point, and one upon which some of my suggestions above were based.

    The conventional recommendation is that sh2 sweet corns can be grown together, but that they need isolation from other corns. My assumption is that if two or more sh2 varieties were to cross, the results would still be supersweets... but would the remaining genes cause other alterations in flavor or texture? I'm afraid I don't know the answer for that, so chose to err on the side of caution.

    The same can be said of the se and su varieties, which recommendations state can be grown together... I don't know how much taste alteration might occur, compared to the same variety(s) being grown without outside pollen. While I usually grow more than one se variety, I've always staggered the plantings, so never had to deal with that issue.

    If you grow a group of sh2 varieties together, and plant a group of the others in such a way that the two groups will never exchange pollen, that would seem to fall within the recommendations. There are a lot of valuable qualities that could be observed - earliness, husk cover, ear size, etc. - which would not be influenced by cross pollination.

    However, my concern is that flavor might be affected, and since your focus is on "...the best variety from a pure eating experience perspective", the results might be tainted.

    Agribon & similar floating row covers are penetrable & designed to breathe, so it is unlikely that they would prevent wind pollination. If they did, then they would prevent all pollination (just as bagging would) and hand pollination would be required.

    I'm surprised no one else has weighed in yet, I know there are several corn enthusiasts who post on GW. I too would be interested to hear what Digdirt, Fusion, and Farmerdill (among others) have to say on this topic.

  • drscottr
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Zeedman,

    Thanks for your thoughts. I envisioned building mini hoop houses around each variety of corn which would would allow pollen to be shared within the variety.

    I'll read up on hand pollination as the isolation required may offer insights.

    Scott

  • wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Scott, I have raised Montauk and give it an A grade....A+ is tops. I tried what I believe was one of the XTra Tender ones....it was bad. Your mileage may be better. Honey Select was pretty good.

    I tried a synergistic last year, Fantastic which was different but ok. This year my trial variety is Obsession.

    I still prefer the se+ ones like Ambrosia and Incredible.

    To each his own taste...and I am very picky!

    I enjoy great tasting watermelons above anything else I raise. I have tried many, many varieties and have about settled in with 5 reliable ones!

  • drscottr
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wayne,

    Thanks for the input. I grew Montauk last year and it was excellent. I also grew 277A and liked that as well.

    What are your watermelon choices?

    Scott

  • wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My best performer is Raspa. When I get one above 30 pounds, it is superb in flavor. It is seeded. Sangria can be as good, but they like to set on 5 or 6 with some hidden ones and with that load they don't size up as well and don't reach full goodness.
    With seedless, I have had an excellent one with Sweet Slice Plus and Cooperstown. These are not quite as sure as Raspa. I like a couple yellow/gold ones for some variety....Crimson Sweet Yellow and perhaps Gold Strike. The first one is reliable. I sometimes like that old variety Klondike Striped Blue Ribbon. Yes it is not crispy enough, but the flavor can be tops.

    This fellow in South Carolina has gotten me to trial Big Stripe.

    With cantaloupes, Willhite's Sugar Queen and Burpee's Early Hybrid Crenshaw cannot be beaten. I had a 22 pounder a couple years ago with the crenshaw...big as a watermelon. and superb...and I am very picky. It is not listed in their home grower's catalog.

  • drscottr
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Received the following note from the corn expert at Rupp seeds:

    Hi Scott,
    The answer to both of your questions would be no. Because we are dealing with hybrids even if they cross pollinate with another hybrid in their category the eating quality will remain the same as the variety that you have planted. Please let me know if you have any further questions. Thanks and take care.
    Jay Ruwet
    Rupp Seeds, Inc

  • wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Scott, I suppose the key part is "in their category". Where that leaves us EXACTLY is a bit iffy

  • drscottr
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wayne,

    There was more to the interaction with the Rupp guy. He was referring to two groups - SH2 and SU/Syn/SE.

    Scott

  • zeedman Zone 5 Wisconsin
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Bumping this up, still hoping for better clarification from someone with knowledge of sweet corn genetics.

    "Because we are dealing with hybrids even if they cross pollinate with another hybrid in their category the eating quality will remain the same as the variety that you have planted."

    Personally, this makes no sense to me... unless what is being stated is that all hybrids within each category taste the same. "Eating quality" is a bit ambiguous, that could just refer to the kernels maintaining their normal texture, and not becoming starchy. I still question whether there would be alterations in flavor (as compared to the same variety grown in isolation) if several varieties in close proximity were allowed to cross freely.

  • drscottr
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Zeedman.

    I appreciate your assessment. What do you think of my creating a bit of a separation using tall T posts (or PVC pipe) and reemay or some similar fabric? The plots are fairly small 4 ft x 10 ft)

    Would this keep the pollen from mixing? I'm not sure whether pollen can pass through that fabric.)

    Scott

  • fusion_power
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Plant all sh2 varieties close together, they are correct that sh2's can grow side by side with little variation in flavor. Do not plant any other corn type that can pollinate with sh2. When sh2 crosses with su or se+, the result is very starchy poorly flavored corn. Planting sh2 with synergistic is the opposite problem, the sweetness and flavor of the synergistic variety will be reduced. Cold tolerance tends to be pretty weak in sh2 varieties so I highly recommend planting into thoroughly warm soil.

    IMO, su varieties should be limited in your garden because they are less useful in terms of ways to be prepared. There are very few corn varieties that can be compared to Country Gentleman for making creamed corn so please consider growing this variety. Silver Queen is the standard of comparison for a su variety. It makes a decent flavored corn on the cob variety, but I personally do not like the thick pericarp. Cold tolerance in su varieties is the best of the sweet corns.

    The se+ varieties are less viable in cold soil so I advise planting them a bit later than su varieties. I advise finding a few different se+ varieties than you currently have on the list. Silver King is a commonly available standard se+ variety that can be found in most seed stores. I usually don't recommend a vendor specific variety, but Burpee's Breeders Choice corn is much better than most other mid-early yellows. Do not plant se+ varieties with su types. The result is that the se+ corn is significantly less sweet.

    I have less experience with synergistics than with the other types so do a little more verifying on this info. Synergistics are intended to combine several different genes into a single package which means you don't have to worry about planting them near just about any other type of sweet corn. However, most of the synergistics are less sweet if pollinated by other varieties. The only synergistic I have grown suffered from the same issues as sh2's. They are very sweet, somewhat watery, and imo, have poor flavor.

    Corn endosperm is triploid. When the pollen grain grows down through the silk, it splits into two nuclei, one of them combines with a specialized cell to become the germ. The other combines with a diploid cell to become the endosperm which is what we can taste. This means that corn is one of the very few foods that tastes different depending on which direction a cross is made and depending on the dosage effect of the pollen that fertilizes the kernel. If you plant an se+ variety and cross it with sh2 pollen, the result is two sets of genes for se+ and one set of genes for sh2. The dosage effect means the se+ corn will taste like a standard sugary corn but with a slight starchy flavor. In the other direction, an sh2 corn pollinated by an se+ will get two sets of genes for sh2 and one set of se+. But the se+ variety has a gene that patches the defect which causes the sh2 corn to be sweet. The result is corn that tastes like very starchy field corn.

    My preference is for se+ corn. I am in the process of stabilizing a cross of Country Gentleman X Silver King in an attempt to combine the shoepeg trait (pi2 gene) with sugary (su gene) and sugar enhanced (se gene). I am at the F2 stage which means this year I have seed that will segregate for the desired traits. The tough part is that only one plant in 16 will have the desired combination so I have some work to do to pick out just a few plants with the desired combination. Anyone want to help me taste 100 ears of corn to find 7 that taste really sweet and have the shoepeg trait?

  • zeedman Zone 5 Wisconsin
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you, Fusion, for explaining the genetics in greater detail. While I have grown multiple se+ varieties in a given year, I've always staggered plantings - so I had no idea what effect on flavor (if any) that crossing might have. But given that the pollen determines the characteristics of the endosperm, I have to ask... is our sweet corn really so inbred? That regardless of the parentage (within a given type), they all taste pretty much the same?

    I too prefer the se+ varieties, since they seem to have the best compromise of tenderness, sweetness, and flavor. The supersweets, while they have good texture & a longer harvest window, just taste more like candy to me than corn. If I ever want the taste of a supersweet, I'll just sprinkle the cooked ears with sugar instead of salt. ;-) IMO, too many vegetables are being bred for sweetness at the expense of flavor... indicative of our increasing cultural obsession with all things sugary.

    " Anyone want to help me taste 100 ears of corn to find 7 that taste really sweet and have the shoepeg trait?"

    I assume you mean taste half of each ear, so you can save the remaining seed from those with the right combination of traits? Sounds like when your cross ripens, it will be time for a corn roast. ;-)

  • fusion_power
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    " is our sweet corn really so inbred? That regardless of the parentage (within a given type), they all taste pretty much the same? "

    It is not a matter of being inbred. This is just a dosage effect. Most corn does taste surprisingly alike, especially when the endosperm type is the same. The female parent produces the kernel and as I noted above, provides 2 nuclei to the endosperm. This means the female parent has twice as much influence over the flavor of the resulting kernel of corn. Therefore there has to be a major difference in the pollen genome to produce any significant flavor difference. Corn flavor, unlike sugar content, is based on a combination of recessive and dominant genes. This means the pollen parent won't affect flavor very much.

    Because sugar content is based on recessive traits, pollen that has a gene overriding one of the recessives will have a major effect on the sugar content. Using sh2 as an example, the se gene is on chromosome 2, sh2 is on chromosome 3, and su is on chromosome 4. If you cross an sh2 variety with se pollen, then the se gene is patched by a starch gene in the sh2 variety and the sh2 gene is patched by a starch gene in the se variety. The result is corn that tastes and looks like a standard starchy field corn.

    Most corn pollen, depending on the height of the plant, drops within 6 feet of the plant that produces it. Under normal conditions, most of the corn will therefore be either self-pollinated or pollinated by the same variety in the row. Only when rows of different endosperm types are planted side by side is there a problem with large amounts of crosspollination. Growing corn to produce seed requires significant levels of isolation, 100 feet at a minimum, preferred to be 1/4 mile or more. Corn grown to be eaten can be separated by as little as 25 feet with minimal impact on flavor.

    Another interesting bit of trivia is that sweet corn genes are from mutations that disable a particular gene in the starch synthesis biopath. It is relatively easy to break an existing gene. There are multiple known su mutations, each one disables the same gene, each one has the same external phenotype of producing standard sugary sweet corn, and each one produces corn with increased sugar content at the milk stage. But the genes at the DNA level are not identical!

    There are about a dozen genes known that increase milk stage sugar. Here are the most common.
    su = one mutation on chromosome 4
    se = combines the su with another mutation on chromosome 2
    sh2 = one mutation on chromosome 3
    du = a mutation on chromosome 10
    synergistic = varying combinations of su, se, and sh2 with other enhancer genes

  • wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    fusion, I raised Burpee's Breeder's Choice yellow for many years.It was an excellent corn for fresh eating and freezing. About one ear in ten would have those straight looking rows of larger and fatter kernels. These were not very delicious. Finally, I felt the corn strain had deteriated enough to move on.

  • fusion_power
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I can't disagree with that Wayne, it has been 5 years since I grew Breeders Choice. The only reason I have not is because I've been busy with other corn varieties. Dave Galinat developed Breeders Choice prior to selling Mesa Maize. I wish I knew where he wound up, it would be very interesting to discuss the background genetics he was working with. I emailed him a few years ago asking why he was developing smaller kernels and he replied that it was what the market looks for. Apparently people have a very strong preference for small kernels that pop when you bite them.

  • drscottr
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm really impressed with the genetics knowledge that you guys have on this topic. I was a biology major in college but had minimal plant biology coursework.

    Is there any utility to separating the small corn stands (4'x10') using reemay or another similar product that only shades 15% of light? I have tons of the stuff.

    Thanks

    Scott

  • fusion_power
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you spread out the plantings using as much distance as possible and if you spread the tasseling times by sequential planting, then in my opinion, reemay is not needed and may be detrimental to getting good pollination.

    There is one effect you have not allowed for. In early spring, cool temperatures will slow down germination and growth. The result will have your earliest plants tasseling at the same time as the second planting. You can avoid this by planting an early maturing variety first followed by a mid-season variety 2 or 3 weeks later and follow that with a long season variety. This has the advantage of having corn available to eat for most of the summer.

  • drscottr
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Fusion - the early plantings are all SH2 varieties so does it matter?

  • drscottr
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh, one other question. Will the reemay physically block pollen or is it small enough to pass through?