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b11me---update
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Posted by texandana Texas-8a (My Page) on Fri, Feb 3, 12 at 5:14
| In an effort to fix my leggy plants, I replanted them and did a couple of things different this time. First, I took out about half of the soggy soil and replaced it with some dry. I also dug a trench in the soil and replanted them sideways but curved just the top part of the plant so that it's pointing upwards and gave it soil up to the cotyledons. The plants have had direct light on them since early yesterday morning. I just checked on them and it looks like they are still continuing to grow upward and I noticed the cotyledons are opening up more and the part of the stem right below the cotyledons is splitting.
My question is....What do you think I should do at this point? How do you think these plants are going to turn out if I continue to let them grow? Are they going to produce any lettuce?
Thanks for all of your help!! Thinking I might go ahead and get a few more new ones planted later today but I would like to see what happens with the ones I have now. |
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RE: b11me---update
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| Short answer? (Not my usual method, as others will attest). Start more seedlings. Long answer - What you are doing is a palliative approach. Because it is only a few plants, and because the results will be enlightening, it is in my mind a noble experiment. Plants in general do best when their various structures are allowed to exist in the particular environment they are naturally found, roots in dirt, stems above the dirt, and leaves facing the light. By burying the stems, and bending them, you are subjecting that particular structure to a less-than-ideal environment. In most cases, that stress will encourage a plant to take defensive action - in other words, since a plants' primary purpose, if it could be said to have one, is to reproduce, it will react to stresses by changing its' growth habit in whatever way is most likely to encourage the survival of the species. This is why lettuce and spinach "bolt" in heat - they are trying to set seed as a way of ensuring offspring. When gardeners cut the scapes off of hardneck garlic, they are removing a method of reproduction - pollinated flowers that will produce seeds - and the plant responds by making larger cloves, garlics' back-up plan. Plants react to the stress of being fed upon by creating flavinoids and anthocyanins that tend to discourage predators... that is why certain herbs taste better when grown in "poorer" soils. In the case of lettuce, this often results in a bitterness that humans find undesirable. At a certain point, or at a certain point of immaturity, a plant may not have the resources to combat these stresses, and that is when plants make the ultimate sacrifice, and become humus, which will hopefully support the seeds of the plants that DO survive. It's all a rather elegant system, looked at in this way. Your efforts are an example of a well-accepted practice, known as heeling in. By burying the stems at an angle, you are providing structural support to the plant. Most often, heeling in is a way for gardeners to delay growth of a plant until time and space allow the gardener to attend to its' needs in a more ideal fashion, in some cases, as in the example I mentioned earlier with tomatoes, it can result in the formation of a larger root system - to the best of my knowledge, that is NOT the case with lettuce, but to be honest, I don't know. If the physiology of the stem is such that it can adapt to that environment, the plant will continue to grow toward the light source, even though the subterranean parts are growing at an angle. Getting back to your question (I told you this was the long answer) what you have done is attempted to create a more hospitable growing environment with a slightly unnatural and optimistic manipulation. The lettuce plants may survive, but they have been thrice stressed, and that stress may manifest itself in a way that makes the resulting plant less than the ideal you are hoping for. On the other hand they are so young, and likely still vigorous enough, they may turn out fine, and you may find that your method in fact results in a better way of growing iceberg than the practices used since the hybrid was created. As gardeners, optimism is in our DNA, and experimentation has been at the root of agricultural practice since homo sapiens decided to abandon our nomadic ways, so your efforts reflect a noble horticultural tradition - still, in the interest of your primary goal, which is to be eating homegrown lettuce in a few months, it might be in your best interest to start a few more seeds. |
RE: b11me---update
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| That was a very well put explanation, thank you!! I know it may not seem like it but I actually did do ALOT of research on growing vegetables..for probably about a week before actually jumping in. I thought I was prepared for this. I guess there's just alot that you cant "google" and only my own experiences and the knowledge of others that have done this for many years will get me growing big healthy plants!! Thank you again for your help and advice :) I'm going to go start more seeds now. Hopefully by Monday sometime I will have GOOD sprouts :) |
RE: b11me---update
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| There are some people here who have been gardening for a half-century or more, and even they're here not only to discuss and give advice, but to learn. The research never ends. Google is, in fact, a good place to find information, and I use it constantly, but the internet is a notoriously unreliable place. These forums provide the advantage of specificity, timeliness, and interaction, as opposed to the more static information of a website or blog. Newcomers to any activity also have the disadvantage of not knowing what they don't know, and so are limited in the questions they are able to ask by that lack of knowledge and by vocabulary. I try to make pretty information-dense replies because it is important to know why to do something as well as what to do and how to do it. For experienced gardeners that may get a bit wordy, and I confess to a tendency to pull my vocabulary out of the barn and let it stretch once in a while, but hopefully that adds to the entertainment and retention, and isn't just verbosity. |
RE: bi11me---update--new pics
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| When you can, please take a look at my blog. I posted new pictures--2 days after replanting. Thanks!! |
Here is a link that might be useful: Lettuce plants--Day 8
RE: b11me---update
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| They look great! That "nub" you mention is indeed the first "true" leaf, technically referred to as a primordium at its' earliest stages; the cotyledons grow opposite each other, but the true leaves on lettuce grow alternate - a leaf forms on one side, then later another leaf forms on another side. Tomatoes and marijuana continue to form opposite leaves until they are more mature, then the plant structure becomes more complex and random. This is an important aspect of plant taxonomy, but of no real import for most gardeners. You have just proven one of my assertions, that transplanting prior to the appearance of the first "true" leaves is not only possible, but may be beneficial, because the very young seedling is still vigorous enough to adapt to the environmental stresses that transplanting can cause. Transplanting after the formation of the first true leaves is recommended primarily because it gives the gardener something to hold on to other than the stem, which is less able to recover from physical damage than are leaves or roots. The link below gives a very detailed explanation of leaf structure, including these sentences : "More recently (2009), Nisoli, Gabor et al. have shown experimentally and numerically that indeed that was the case, by constructing a "magnetic cactus" made of magnetic dipoles mounted on bearings stacked along a "stem".[8][9] They also revealed that these interacting particles can access novel dynamical phenomena beyond what botany yields: a family of highly non local novel topological solitons emerge in the nonlinear regime of these systems, as well as purely classical rotons and maxons in the spectrum of linear excitations." Huh? For our purposes, that may be an example of why too much knowledge is not always a good thing. I happen to also be a big fan of the term "granitic pegmatite", but it's only rarely, and in very specific circles, that it is of any real utility. That may also be true of most of the entry I linked to. The pictures on your blog, by the way, are quite good. They accurately illustrate the details of what you're observing. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Leaf structure
RE: b11me---update
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| I'm so glad to hear that I might actually end up with a harvest from these plants!! Now that the first leaf has appeared, how long would you guess it will take it to fully form? I'm guessing not long since the "nub" has already had noticeable growth since I posted the pictures this morning. I'm doing alot of reading on this subject and trying hard to find basically "What to expect" pictures so that I can get more info about the iceburg lettuce growing process but I'm not coming up with anything helpful. Also, say, for example, I could sow seeds directly into the garden on or after my LFD which is 3/16. If the plants are already growing, would I plant them earlier than the seed planting date? Trying to determine how much time I have to get my garden ready (it's not even started yet...yikes!!!) and when I should plan on getting the plants in there. Thanks!!! |
RE: b11me---update
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| Lettuce is a moderately hardy plant, and may be started by seed outdoors prior to your LFD. The problem with doing that is that while you may not have frosts, the soil temperature is far from ideal for germination. There are ways to work around that, but the best is what you are doing, which is raising plants indoors to give them a healthy start so you won't be subject to the limitations of LFD and poor soil conditions. What I do is to provide a protected environment that allows me to get seeds and plants in the ground well ahead of what my normal outdoor conditions allow by using hoop-houses, but you can do the same thing on a smaller and much more economical scale, which might allow you to put your plants and seeds in the ground only a few weeks from now. This is definitely a more sophisticated form of gardening, but it is not so technological that it is beyond your abilities. Here's what I would do if you want to push some boundaries. Get some stiff wire, or plastic pipe, and build a miniature greenhouse over the area where you will be growing your earliest lettuce, cover it with clear plastic, well anchored so it wont blow away, and let it warm up for a week or so. Once the ground is above freezing, you can transplant your seedlings there. The problem with this is that air temperatures in these kinds of structures can get fatally hot on a sunny day, even if the outside air is still quite cold, so they require lots of attention. One way that gardeners have found to reduce this risk is with garden fabrics - there are lots of options, but the most familiar one is called Reemay. This provides some heat retention and frost protection, but also allows more circulation of air, so the possibility of cooking your plants in the ground is less. You could use plastic only at first, then replace it with fabric once the plants are in the ground, or start seeds under plastic, and once they sprout switch to fabric. If you are unlikely to be able to attend to your plants on cold sunny days, you are better off using an opaque fabric rather than a clear or opaque plastic. The most advanced methods are a combination of both, pioneered by my friend Eliot Coleman, among others, and detailed in the link below. You may also, if you wish, simply drape a light fabric directly on top of certain plants - this is what is known as a floating row cover. Because it offers the least protection from cold night air, this a better technology for root crops than leaf crops, but it is better than doing nothing, but bear in mind that most gardeners don't go to these lengths, and still get plenty of produce. The best method is the one that fits into your lifestyle - if it starts to be a pain in the butt to provide all that care, it makes sense to start later in the season. It's important that the process be interesting and enjoyable and rewarding, because inevitably it will also involve some drudgery, discomfort, and disappointment. For most people who persevere, gardening becomes a lifelong pursuit, and the pleasures and interest only increase as they try new things and their experience grows. I happen to enjoy some of the science and technology that some gardening techniques provide, and because I do it for commercial reasons it is to my advantage to understand and utilize more complicated methods, but many hobbyists and serious home gardeners eventually get hoop-houses and even heated greenhouses in order to expand the possibilities of what and when they can grow. In regard to the development of the leaf it should show fairly obvious growth on a daily basis, and the next leaf will likely appear in a week or less. It will look like a leaf of looseleaf lettuce, and the plant will not take on its characteristic "head" form, until well into the growing cycle - possibly 4 or 5 weeks or more. You can, if you wish, eat the lettuce at almost any time, or harvest individual leaves from many plants in order to make a salad, but iceberg is not an ideal variety to use for this method, and removing leaves may have a negative impact on it's ability to form a good head. Now that you have some seeds started, what else are you planning to grow? How much space do you have, and what do you need to do to get it ready? It sounds to me like soil preparation may soon be a priority. |
Here is a link that might be useful: cutting-edge low tunnel growing
RE: b11me---update
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| Hi B! The ideas you mention are good ones, I may check into that. I may also just wait until I know the soil is warm enough to accomodate their needs and transplant then if you think that is a feasible plan. By that point, they will only need another month or so until they are ready for harvest. That is much longer than I planned to keep them in containers but if that will keep them alive and healthy until transplanting time, I'll do that and I can pot up again if they get too big for their current containers. The first leaves on the two bigger plants are growing well. The "nub" has grown probably 1/4" since yesterday morning. Its no longer a nub but not a leaf yet. I'm excited to see what happens next! To answer your other question, the seeds I have on hand right now are corn, carrots, cucumbers, broccoli and tomatoes. I would really like to do some potatoes also. I'm still researching these so I'm not sure when I'll get them started. The lack of sufficient lighting is a big worry for me since I really only have enough for the 5 lettuce plants that are using it now, and one of them I think is not getting enough because it's starting to lean alot to the left towards the light. More research to do today in regards to making sure they have light that is strong enough and big enough for multiple plants. I would also like to get information on how to make an indoor greenhouse. I have a small heater that plugs into the wall so that will provide warmth. I just need for that and the plants to be in an enclosed area. If you have any ideas or know of good websites to help me with this, I would love to see them!! The amount of space I have--I havnt measured but I would guess it is around 200 sq ft. That entire area would have full sun during the day. I dont have any trees in my back yard so the shady part of the yard is only along each side of the fence. I purchased a cultivator to help me dig up the sod and mix up the soil with the compost once I get it all in there. I attempted to start on this yesterday but before I can do anything, I have to mow the grass and unlucky for me--my mower wouldnt start. I'll try again today if the weather is nice enough. |
RE: b11me---update
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| texandana, I hope you realize that head lettuce is very difficult to grow down south. Our season of longer days and cool weather is just too short. Over 50 years of gardening I tried head lettuce a number of times and failed. It's only been in the last few years I've had any success. The trick for me was using 4 inch bottomless pipe pots to get larger transplants that could mature in a shorter time. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Lettuce in pipe pots
RE: b11me---update
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| Broccoli should be the next seeds you start. It too does best in cool weather, so early transplants will get you started for spring, and save a few seeds to plant in late summer or early fall. I like to plant 1 seed per pot, and I use fairly large pots because I don't like to re-plant until it goes in the garden. For a second planting you'll be putting seeds right in the ground. You'll be doing that with the lettuce too, after the heat of summer starts to dissipate. The carrots don't take to transplanting well, once you have the garden dug, that's when you will plant them. Carrot seed is very small and tricky to space. I like to make a very well worked bed for carrots, lots of organic matter in deep soft soil. Instead of planting in rows, I pick a windless day and scatter the seeds over the bed from about waist height, this reduces the amount of thinning that has to be done. I like my carrots to grow about 3" from each other, and I tend to plant smaller varieties - for larger carrots, I'd provide even more space. Depending on the quantity of seed, you may want to save some carrot to plant in the fall as well. For any fall planting, first you should know the date of the average first frost for your area. Subtract the number of days to maturity of the varieties you hope to plant, and that will give you an estimated time to start planting for fall, but remember that the first fall frost only rarely means the beginning of cold weather, you should have a full month of growing time, or more, after that frost, so your calculations will show when to start fall planting, not when the last chance of succeeding will be. By then, you will know if gardening is as rewarding as you hope it will be, and you may decide that taking further steps - like the low tunnels in the video - are something you want to try. Cucumbers like warm soil. Once you have room under your lights, because the lettuce is moved outside, you can start cukes indoors. You can grow them in pots for a few weeks, but they grow pretty fast, and they really don't like much disturbance to their roots, so you want them to be ready to plant when the soil has warmed significantly. I would start a few cukes indoors, and when they are ready to transplant, start a few more seeds directly in the garden. Your corn will be seeded directly in the garden. It may be grown from transplants, but there is not much point in doing it, and with limited space an light your indoor space can be better utilized with other things. Varieties are important. As pls8xx wrote, iceberg is a more challenging variety in warm climates than other types of lettuce - the same can be true with all vegetables, which accounts for regional variations in preferred varieties, and why I probably use a different seed supplier in Maine than you do in Texas. In general, if you buy seeds locally from the right retailer, they will be reasonably well adapted to your climate. Two suggestions. If you are concerned about space, and don't want to get more lights, just make a little tin-foil tent around your seedlings. More reflected light will raise the intensity to a degree, and as long as it doesn't trap too much heat - which is unlikely with fluorescent bulbs - it should give some advantage. And buy some radish seeds. Put a few in a pot, and put the pot out where your garden will be. When the radishes sprout, the ground temperature should be adequate for transplanting your lettuce and broccoli. You can also put in a row of radish, lettuce, broccoli and carrot at that point without too much chance of loosing the crop - though you will still have to be vigilant if frost is predicted. If you have a chance, measure the area that you intend to garden, and write down the varieties you intend to grow, and I can give you a more detailed way of looking at the planning process. We'll discuss digging another time. |
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