This is scary. I mean really creepy. Either Raw is under an unhealthy influence of a cult or he IS the great "Dr." Morse himself.

I've thought that snce the earliest posts.

Regardless, this kind of prosthelytzing is not for the Gardenweb...never has been and never will be.

Although it is complete nonsense that a human could live long-term on all or most of their intake calories being raw green grasses (no seeds), it is observably true that the typical north-american diet is so unhealthily loaded with hyper-processed starches and sugars, bad fats, and animal flesh that just switching from that diet to any diet that is primarily vegetables and fruits works remarkable results in a very short time.

For example, the people on the verge of heart-attack and stroke, etc, massively over-wheight, who go on the blended greens-and-fruit diet for a few weeks or months. Incredible results, even though actually that isn't a permanently sustainable diet for an adult, and for a growing child it would be damaging unless made up primarily of bananas and avocados along with nuts and seeds.

Well he lost me a loooong time ago, when we could just walk down the block and find something.
Anyway, since I have already taken a step or two away from nature by having raised beds (which I think they had in ancient Greece) I need to add to them every few years, tilling is almost necessary to incorporate the new with he old. Is much really lost in the air? Mine always seem to thrive after a good tossing about of the soil. I might injure more eathworms with the tiller than the shovel.. Am I doing more harm than good or vice versa?
Would a new thread that does not get derailed be a good plan, or try and get this back on track?

I vote for keeping the thread, it is edu-tainment! Also it is nearing it's 150 post limit. It reminds me of when I was in college, working at a research station with a handful of graduate students and young professors (and a couple older ones too). We were having lunch and the subject of animal rights came up. I remember asking why people had to be so crazy and extreme, because I felt like they hurt their cause more than helped it. I had a great love for animals, but I also respected the history behind hunting, using animal skins for clothing, and eating meat. One of the graduate students said to me, "maybe you would feel better if you realized that they serve a purpose." Since I could not imagine what he meant I asked him to explain and he simply said "they make those of us in the middle look reasonable."

Anyway, I see no reason for this thread to be censored.

And silica does not rot your teeth, it wears them away.

Obviously we are all pro-vegetable in the diet here or we would not be on the vegetable gardening forum.

I think as long as there is a strong polarizing influence here a new thread is going to go the way of this one, but we can always try.

I think your missing the point nc nrn... If you were to see what Dr..Morse does on a daily basis to help people, he devoted his life to it! He spends his time making YouTube videos because they are readily available to the public and they are free! If you were to see all the people he helped and all theknowledge he gained in the 30-40 years of healing people that's more important than anything.. If younthinkntgis is propaganda, your beyond help, I'm just trying to inform people, whether you want to believe it or not.. If you think I'm Dr. morse I don't know what to tell you, I would assume he's much more busy, seeing multiple clients a day making hours of videos... All i can say is try it for yourself, watch a hundred of his videos to get a better understanding..

Joe

Wow. Just, you know, wow. I suggest that a moderator either remove all the off-topic crap or transfer the good stuff to a new thread. Original topic is timely, interesting, and could be helpful to less experienced folks.

I absolutely agree that to till or not to till depends on individual needs and circumstances, and even gardening philosophies.

I am an old-school row-gardener and rototiller(er?) because these are the methods I was taught and grew up doing. Quite frankly it works well, which is why I stay with it. Not an efficient use of space perhaps, but I have lots of that so not an issue to me. There are many gardening methods, including low-till and no-till, but I have yet to find any other system that works as efficiently for my needs, even though I have done lots of experimenting and I will continue to do so (it would be foolish of me not to keep an mind open to new ideas). I do not know of any gardener in my general area that does not use a mechanical tiller to work their garden soil, but most only do so just prior to spring planting and sowing.

I rough-till leaves and compost into the soil in the fall and I fine-till the soil in spring as I seed rows so that I do not compact the freshly tilled soil - walking on freshly tilled soil is a major no-no. During summer where possible I occasionally zip between rows for weed suppression, and I do quick surface breakups in late summer as large areas become available from vegetable varieties finishing up. It is a very useful, handy garden tool as far as I am concerned and a good quality machine is worth every penny.

I do believe that rototilling SLOWLY damages soil structure but in a scale such that it will not be a factor for me in my lifetime. The soil will continue to be functional and productive, and there are simple, effective ways to mitigate the negative effects of tilling.

I have one area that has been a vegetable garden every year since the 1950s. It has been rototilled at least once, sometimes twice, each year (and plowed occasionally) over that time span. The soil structure is showing signs of damage but it still produces wonderfully and I believe will do so indefinitely.

I live on former prairie. More damage was done to the soil by humans destroying the prairie ecosystem than will ever be accomplished with gardeners using rototillers.

Vroom...

We've had so many till/no-till threads that I for one am very tired of them, so the off-the-wall stuff that has manifested in this thread is a lot more interesting, IMO.

I think that when people are highly invested in the idea of the economy collapsing / global war / pandemic, etc., it is often because they believe that, in that post-apocalyptic future, they would be more respected and have more social clout than they do here and now.

I also think that conspiracy theorists (and believers in the more extreme types of medical quackery count as such) are often converting their trauma from childhood abuse into their feelings towards the conspirators. They know the truth, but no-one believes them. It's heartbreaking, really.

@sunnibel: This is often the conscious intent of the radical groups. Earth First, for example, was started specifically to get people to stop thinking of the Nature Conservancy and Sierra Club as 'radical environmentalists'. Redefine what radical is, and what is moderate will change as well.

I used to turn soil by hand or with a rototiller, but I was happy to discover that lasagna gardening works better for me on clay and compacted fill.

I think we could all agree on a few things:

-Be as self sustainable as possible
-Eat a plant based diet, raw foods comprising the majority
-Grow your own food, if possible
-it won't hurt to put in a good water/shower filter

Health be with you,
Joe

Raw, I think you want to plant -your- morals and ideals in our head at any cost....and you see it as doing us a favor...and that you have special information we need...and you can't really view some of us as having real information based on real facts gained from being in the real world.

You preach...you defend and apologize...all constantly...in between insisting you're just innocently trying to help us and occasionally insulting us.

Is it really that hard to believe that 1- you don't have all the answers 2- some people here think your "doctors" are wingnuts 3- your advice might be wrong 4- we have our own free will, intelligence, critical thinking skills, and real life experience?

Sunnibel, I agree, keep the thread. The start of the discussion is enough to get somebody started researching more on the till versus no till subject. The extra stuff lends context to other discussions. I always appreciate having a wider perspective of other's thought processes. It helps me to decide whose advice I want to take when other questions arise.

Ok, but if you want to take on the mantle of crazy guy who makes everyone else look sane, why do you persist in saying your veiws are not radical? Anyway, I was making the point that the discussion, while all over the place, still has value.

*later edit: this first paragraph was to Joe, not the person immediately proceding me. We must have been posting at the same time, hope there was no confusion!*

To the tilling question, I wonder how big an impact my rotary tiller has on earth worms populations, how long they take to bounce back, and how it compares to the impact my chickens have on those populations. I suspect that, given their short life spans and quick breeding in prime conditions, tilling in organic matter (worm food) would offset worm death, if indeed they are killed by the tiller and not just merely jumbled around. If tilling were done constantly throughout the season, then I might worry more abiut the worms.

This post was edited by sunnibel7 on Sun, Mar 24, 13 at 16:19

Re: Earthworms

Shallow tilling (4-6") tends to increase the amount of Earthworms (making it easier for them to find their way up to higher soil profiles), while deep tilling tends to decrease them. Time of year is important in this equation. Earthworms tend to retreat deeper into the soil the cooler it is. If you till when it's cool, you're not going to disturb many unless you till deep...if you till when it's warm/hot you're going to disturb more of them.

Tilling can also cut up some "bad" grubs residing in your soil if that's an issue...they tend to be near the surface more-so than earthworms.

sunnibel, I am only hazarding a guess about earthworm damage with tillers. My guess is that many of those worms go down a bit at the vibration of the earth in their area.

I notice that the old tiller pictured in solient green's post is a rear tiller. these kind are the oh and ah tillers for making "onion bed" tillage. My neighbor and my horse manure provider have this kind. I prefer the front drive type as I can vary the type of tillage easily...quick passes for coarse incorporation, leaning for ridge making, and slower for finer dirt. Most of my gardens anymore have very loose structure so they don't need much tillage.

I do think that at some point that measures to make deep rich soil are desirable...and this can be accomplished in one day rather than in years. Of course this involves some earth moving of some kind.

I think that pnbrown said something worthwhile concerning 'unorthodox' diets...at least for an occasion or season. Schucks, even my cat will go and s chew off some grass of a certain type. Well, I better qualify that...animals are often much more discerning about diets and food quality than we humans.

While no one can slam-dunk an answer about why cats/dogs eat grass, a common consensus seems to be it's solely for digestive/fiber/roughage use. Via grooming they intake a lot of hair and usually live off of a meat/grain/fat diet (whether it's dry or wet food).

Some vomit afterwards, but not all...either way it passes only partially digested leading to some easier poops.

Occasional vomiting aside...it's a lot better than the dogs (aka, every dog I've ever had) that thinks the cat box contains high protein dog treats.

Y'know, I forgot something: A yard is not wild. Almost every grass yard was established by tilling, amending, seeding, watering, and regular cutting. Many have also involved herbicides and pesticides, but that's not essential, so I'll leave it out.

Grass yards have all the sins of agriculture, without even the virtue of being edible. So trying to figure out a way to eat grass is unrelated to a goal of eating wild food.

Good point, nc-crn.

"No-till requires more pesticides "

This post was edited by TheMasterGardener1 on Mon, Mar 25, 13 at 16:34

Ah, yes,...to till or not to till. Speaking of...to till or not to till...your cat litter box.

I find that the newer clumping and even 'tighter clumping' cat litter by Tidy Cat to be so much better that is almost makes litter box fishing almost fun.....just keep the litter 4 inches deep....no smell [almost] either.

"No-till requires more pesticides"

Now that MG has finally found this thread we have some serious BS.

If you don't have grubs to till it doesn't make much of a difference with no-till vs till as far as tilling for pest control.

There's a "good" tradeoff leaving possible "bad" plant litter on your soil...from erosion control, to nutrient addition, to the natural mulch suppressing some weeds for a period of time.

Some people will forgo tilling in years where they're not expected to have a grub issue in large scale agriculture. Some will put it first on their to-do list if they expect a grub problem.

Ok, since we're back on track with tilling questions, here's one I have. Is it meaningful to draw conclusions about the effects of using a small, walk-behind tiller in a garden by reading studies about the harmful effects of plowing and discing with (sometimes HUGE) tractors? I'm wondering if the weight of the machinery used plays a part in the formation of hardpan, for example.

Thanks for the info about the worms, someone mentioned them earlier and it reminded me that I've wondered about it but never pursued the thought.

The weight of the vehicle does play a role in developing hardpans, but more so, the continuous tilling of the same depth/disc plays more of a role in developing the hardpans.

Discing creates a compaction and if you're using the same 12" disc year after year (without a soil chiseling, or similar) you can create an area of compaction.

Most home/roto-tillers don't develop hardpan issues, though it's possible in heavy clay or compacted soils.

This thread had all the elements of a good movie.

I laughed, I cried. I shook my fist in rage and I gasped in horror.

I loved the part about the friend in Toronto who eats a diet of 100% wild edibles, therefore everyone can do it.

The Greater Toronto area has a population of over 5 million and spends 5 months of the year in frozen/snow conditions.

5 million people foraging for wild edibles in Toronto in January... lmao! This guy is a hoot!

•Posted by pnbrown z6.5 MA (My Page) on
Sun, Mar 24, 13 at 16:02

"No-till requires more pesticides"

"Now that MG has finally found this thread we have some serious BS."

I meant to say herbicides. Why respond like that? ;)

When you dont till, you dont kill weeds either:

Major disadvantages

"No incorporation. Increased dependance on herbicides. Slow soil warming on poorly drained soils."

http://cropwatch.unl.edu/web/tillage/advdisadv

The great thing for me is I dont have to use pesticides or herbicides. These farmers only do what they can to keep up with food needs. There are many who point at these farmers like they are doing something wrong. The ones saying the farmers are doing it all wrong have 'their' "ideas" of food production and dont really get what it takes to produce so much food on budget or the principles of an economy in that not everyone can grow their own food and many little farmers markets are worse on the environmnet than having large stores with direct routs using large trucks that use less gas per ton shipped.

This post was edited by TheMasterGardener1 on Mon, Mar 25, 13 at 16:36

If you can stop with your pro-industry platitudes (always followed up with little homilies about how really you are an all-natural gardener) then I'll stop telling you to quit stinking these threads up with it (the BS).

Wow....this thread is interesting. I was looking up if I should turn my soil over this season and.........

'digdirt' says- Where is all that edible wild plants for them? US Agriculture feeds so much of the world. What would happen to all of them......

Well this reminds me of when I was in India a couple years back and reading the Delhi Times about how the USA was pressuring Iraq to buy long grain rice from us rather than Basmati/Jasmine rice from India. I think the USA won that one.

Iraq's response was that they don't like long grain rice and it was more economical to get it from India.

So, without us they wouldn't starve, they might even be better off!!! With a more favorable product!!!

Not to mention how our powder milk exports to Jamaica resulted in them not having a dairy industry nowadays.

Makes you think eh????

Ugg..this thread again.

It was started by someone who claimed to want to hear about till vs no till and then it de-evolved into living off the land and survivalism...then further derailing the whole thing until it ended up into a discussion about eating lawn grass and alternative medicine quackery.

...and no, I'm not calling all alternative medicine "quackery" but there was some prime quackery that popped up in this thread.

As far as till vs no till goes...you can pretty much ignore 1/2 this thread...and it's a shame so much useful debate/suggestion/information got pulled into the crap-fest it became.

This post was edited by nc-crn on Tue, Oct 8, 13 at 3:55

I guess it's an unavoidable result when you have such a wide range of experience and viewpoints engaged...

This is a fun thread...nice bump...

Interesting views and discussions. I have ready some other years ago. But Good information often comes out of opposing views.

I think the terms, tilling, rotovating, harrowing, furrowing, digging , turnibg over, double digging, ploughing, hoeing, cultivating ... all have some thing in common and that is:
1)--aerating: this action introduces air (nitrogen and oxygen) to soil which can be beneficial to micro organism. ISN'T THAT WHY YOU TURN YOUR COMPOST over?

2)-- It can be beneficial in weed prevention. A lot of weeds seeds cannot come up when buried too deep.

3.)... after digging, rotovating, ploughing if you have sunshine and the naked aerated soil will benefits from it in more than one way.

4) ... as the soil gets compacted in container, It can also happen to the beds, though to a lesser degree.

5) ... We know that nutrients, to some extent, go further down gradually. So I think deeper in the ground the soil is much richer than on the top. So by digging(turning over) we bring that rich soil back up , within the reach of a lots small rooted annuals.

FOR RAISED BEDS:
we do often add compost/organic matter. Piling it just on the top, IMO, is not as effective as if you work it in. And that is only possible by tilling it in, to become a better medium for plants root system.

I have never given total no-till a try. I have amendments to mix into the soil which speeds up what I am trying to do.

My main concern here is to avoid some kind of pc intimidation...like "I don't till, and you should not also...because I am smarter and more pristine than you."

"1)--aerating: this action introduces air (nitrogen and oxygen) to soil which can be beneficial to micro organism."

This can also "burn" (aka more quickly break down and "use up") your added compost faster...with some of the beneficial aspects being lost to the air or leeching. On the flipside, it also incorporates some of it deeper into the root zone where it won't "burn" so quickly and will make it usable to roots. While more is lost with tilling in, there's also a bit of benefit of getting it to the root zone quicker rather than waiting for natural forces (weathering and movement via gravity/water/worms).

A lot depends on your native soil. There's a lot of places around where tilling, at least initially or the first few seasons/years, will benefit from getting the organic matter deeper into the root zone which will increase pore space so top applied stuff can move through a lot easier in years following. Some people are lucky enough to live in areas where they can simply top apply and not have to worry about an initial tilling...there's not a whole lot of these places unless they want to wait years for this soil texture benefit to take place, though.

We have heavy clays where I'm at. It can take years for top applied composts to work it's way through deeper soils, even with the abundance of worms and moisture we get around here. Personally, when I'm starting a fresh bed I like to break up the ground 4-6" and incorporate some compost + quality top soil before adding a layer of compost + quality top soil on top...in a semi-sunken bed (kinda sorta) approach. After that, top applying of compost works well. The aeration and water infiltration tends to be quite good. While we do have heavy clay soils, they're not the shrink/swell/heaving or "sticky" clays...so this works to an advantage for this method in my part of the world.

Ugg..this thread again.

Yeah. Wish they'd bring back the old 125 post limit on threads.

'digdirt' says- Where is all that edible wild plants for them? US Agriculture feeds so much of the world. What would happen to all of them......

Well this reminds me of when I was in India a couple years back and reading the Delhi Times about how the USA was pressuring Iraq to buy long grain rice from us rather than Basmati/Jasmine rice from India. I think the USA won that one.

How are those two points even comparable? The claim under dispute at the time was about how "we can all survive on edible wild plants". Sadly that isn't working in either India or Iran. It was not about who any country should buy their agricultural crops from.

So if you are going to drag up an old thread, especially one from so far out in left field, and then pick a single comment out of hundreds to focus on, at least make your post relevant please.

Thanks.

Dave

Generally I think tilling is over-used, but it seems reasonable that there are circumstances where it is quite useful, such as compacted soil, heavy clay, or breaking new ground.

Personally I have only ever used a tiller once in over 25 years of gardening, trying to renew some grass at my old house years ago, and was left with a ton of raking to do to smooth the soil and rake out the weed clods. It was a pain, and I've since learned there are much easier ways to create a lawn.

I've had sandy loam at both houses and have never used a tiller for the veggie and perennial gardens - all digging was hand done. This was back breaking labor, digging out weeds and woody plants, stumps and roots, picking and screening rocks. I've since learned, there are easier ways to create a garden!

I use lasagne beds, top dress both lawn and gardens with compost annually, mulch with leaves and straw, and don't bother picking every rock, or digging out shrubbery rootballs and tree roots anymore. Roots will decompose over time and add organic matter to the soil. Just dig a good hole where the plant will go! Of course this depends on what you're growing, root crops prefer soil with a certain texture.

I still like to hand dig, but only as needed (and rake, and sweep, and shear by hand) - it's great exercise, no need to go to the gym! Plus the garden can be truly "green" this way - people need to get away from excess use of fossil fuels.

PS I don't quite understand the problem with people bumping threads or veering a bit off topic, as long as they are polite. Of course, posting repeatedly about an unrelated personal obsession is a bit weird.

Many of the older threads are very interesting, and threads fall off this forum so quickly. I'm bummed, because no doubt much good information has been lost from years back.

I just viewed a video of peanut harvesting in Florida. The rows were 30 inches apart and the digger/windrower did 3 rows at a time at about 5 miles an hour. After drying a few days the combines came along and separated the peanuts from the vines and collected them in huge hoppers that dumped into carts or semis.

What was amazing was the contrast from olden days of hand labor of picking the shells off and burlap bagging them.

Would anyone want to go back to hand husking corn, peanuts , or other crops? It was hard work.

Has anyone else observed how the proselytizers join, make waves, and then disappear when challenged by sound, reasonable logic and argument? Seems to be a recurring theme here on GW.

Please folks, let this thread quietly fade away into the oblivion it so rightfully deserves. If you got something to say then start a new thread, we would enjoy it and its not very difficult to do.

@ soilent-green
we don't have to come in, read or post comments. So it is a free choice. MABE(just maybe) there are new comers who can benefit from the discussion and make up their own mind whether to till or not to till. It is that simple.

Also, the forum encourages the members to search a subject before making new threads. Threads like this are like a good book.

This post was edited by seysonn on Fri, Oct 11, 13 at 2:23

"Would anyone want to go back to hand husking corn, peanuts , or other crops? It was hard work."

Wayne, your question implies doing that for a steady job, hours per day for days, right? Of course nobody would want to do that if there was an option. However, to eat it isn't necessary to endure such drudgery. Even if one made corn one's staple grain the amount of time spent husking and shelling by hand is not overwhelming - especially since it can be done as needed. I'm sure it would be the same with peanuts.

I keep my beans in the husk and shell them when I want to eat them - often at night while watching tv.

Pat, I meant the exercise mainly as a commercial one...not home gardening.

My dad hand shucked corn in the '30s; shoveled ear corn; mowed with a 5 ft. horse pulled mower, shocked wheat and oats; etc. I still have an indelible image of the person kneeling in the peanut field picking peanuts off the vines.

Here is a link that might be useful: Peanut Harvest

Well, most people are unlikely to want to return to the days when they had to harvest peanuts and winnow wheat by hand, but on the other hand perhaps we've moved too far in the other direction. These days, people want fossil fuel powered machines to do everything for them. If there were a machine to wipe their butt, they'd probably buy it.

I've seen a mini-van that closes the side door with a press of the button, and seen homeowners with postage sized lots using a leaf blower to clean off their 20 foot driveway. It is NOT green to till, and shred, and mow, and blow, and prune everything by machine, not to mention the noise is incredibly annoying. Why not use a little elbow grease? Much better for the health of your body and the health of the planet.

I wasn't going to chime into this thread, BUT!
To Terrene, my electric leaf vac and my 1970 15 lb tiller saves my back and saves my neighbors from sending their leaves to the dump (actually, in our county, the leaves go to the compost place at the dump) It also adds to my compost and to help the neighbors think about composting!
I only use the leaf vac when the neighbors are off ay work. They come home to a clean yard! The electric mini tiller isn't loud and tills down just about 4-6 inches which is all my raised beds need for fluffing.
Nancy

Thanks for the video, pretty nifty machines.

The question about dig/turn versus till is a good one. As far as I can tell, a motorized tiller is a powered shovel that just doesn't dig very deep. Someone referred to it as a motorized hoe.

Seysonn gave a nice list of advantages of soil penetration a few days ago.

In my HZ, I frankly need to water a lot more than those up north, and that ends up compacting the soil by the end of the season. At the end of the year, that soil needs a lot more than "fluffing" on top. It's certainly not clay, but it is somewhat compressed. I can imagine that in a cooler climate, optimal soil structure could well be preserved through the season, but it sure isn't down here. That being the case, a few-inch deep tilling each season just won't do it for me. I need to turn the soil down to 1.5 spade depths every season. That also allows me to really dig in my mulch. Now, get me a Ditch-Witch, and I'll be real happy!

Dan, my experience with long-season well-adapted crops in florida indicates that irrigation can be greatly reduced or eliminated even in hot zones with high evaporation rates. I would recommend that you try some test plots with some suitable landraces and see if little or no irrigation and little or no soil disturbance for several seasons will result in greatly increased fertility.

pmbrown, excuse me, but I have to laugh. I must not be growing "well adapted crops"! In my area, we get three weeks of temps over 100F in the summer, with low temps close to 80F. Florida doesn't come close to that. I've never seen a tomato, for example, that is well adapted to those hotter conditions. Peppers, okra, and eggplants tolerate it, with proper irrigation. But it's also not an issue of "fertility". It's an issue of survival. Also, while I mulch deeply, all mulch does is reduce the evaporation off the top of the soil. It doesn't reduce the amount of water a plant draws up and which evaporates from the leaves. Plants are incredibly efficient at pumping water from the deep soil into the atmosphere. You can't stop them from doing that. You can have an infinite amount of mulch and still have the soil rapidly dry out.

Back on topic, IMHO, I view tillers as convenient powered hoes. But they just don't do the job I need to get done. For example, they don't contribute to soil improvement at depth, but just make the soil more conducive to germination of seedlings.

Dan, I agree that garden tillers don't normally go deep. Yes, they do prepare soil for seeding and kill off weeds. They also incorporate amendments down to about 5 inches or so. Still, to work things in more deeply, I use a 6 tine potato fork that makes it looser down to about 9 inches.

Let me add a few more words about soil preparation in a hot climate. Down here, deep roots are a necessity. Things simply don't survive in the summer unless their roots can reach deep soil where the temps are kept average (say, 85-90F or so) and things can be reasonably moist. That being the case, loosening soil at depth is essential at the beginning of a season. Just tilling before planting doesn't do that. Done that way, the planted crops are encouraged to sprout and spread their roots laterally. Maybe that works in HZ 4-7, but it won't necessarily work in hotter areas.

That all being said, surface soil preparation with a tiller is a nice thing, but it just doesn't do the whole job. Deep digging (we can call it "plowing", actually) loosens both the deep and surface soil. Sure, to fluff up the topsoil, and break up clods, tilling is probably nice, but a hoe or rake will do the job, though it takes some more muscle power.

I define "tilling", by the way, as soil conditioning down to a depth of five or six inches.

Texas has higher absolute temps in summer, that is true, bit it also tends to have soil that hold much more moisture than florida sand, so on moisture content it may be about even.

Also I am talking about different crop families entirely; for example pigeon pea may be productive in circumstances too harsh even for cowpea.

I was thinking you had to be taking about a different crop family. Point noted. I'm not sure I want to devote my home garden to millet, sorghum, maize and cowpeas but, if I did, I might well be able to put away my hose!