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elisa_z5

Back to Eden Method experiment

elisa_z5
11 years ago

I don't want to start a ruckus here, but I was wondering if anyone would be interested in reports on the Back to Eden Gardening Method experiments I'm conducting.

I promise, I did not do anything to my deeply composted and cared for garden. I simply realized that I already had a Back to Eden area in my yard -- a place where I had the tree chipping guys dump a pile of wood chips about 4 years ago, and when I couldn't use all of them, they sat there and rotted. So . . . since the Back to Eden movie made me very curious about the method, I decided to clean up the area and try growing some things there this year and comparing the results to what I grow in my regular garden.

The area is soft and spongy, just like the BTEG guy says. The weeds came up easily, even dandelions, just like he said. There were worms in the soil, which is significant since the soil here doesn't normally have many worms until I feed it with compost and manure. So far I've planted potatoes (he says they don't need hilling in BTE gardening -- that would be nice.) They got the same treatment as the potatoes I planted in my garden. If anyone is interested, I'll post about the results.

Comments (169)

  • pnbrown
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    NC, I can only surmise that the idea of "back to eden" is very emotional for some gardeners and they get a bit worked up by any critique of it.

    Lorac, you can sprinkle some well-finished compost from time to time and crops will generally do pretty good. So you have made the point, unwittingly, that others have made: if the only input to a cropping system is wood chips, sooner or later the system is going to run low on fertility. At risk of being ignored (but what else is new), I'll point out as others have before, the original subject of the BTE video uses other sources for fertility. The wood chips are serving as moisture retention and long-term SOM. That latter as NC points can eventually get overly high. I have a plot where I dumped wood shavings for many years that I later put into crop production. It does well at moisture retention due to the very high SOM but fertility is not higher than other plots. Crops that prefer bacterially-dominated soils don't do that well there.

  • dirtguy50 SW MO z6a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Crops that prefer bacterially-dominated soils don't do that well there."
    pnbrown, what plants are you thinking fit into this category?
    Thanks.

  • lucillle
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    " I would rather hear people encouraging gardeners to aim for doing whatever is most sustainable on their property, in their location."

    I have to say that out of all the GardenWeb gardening posts I have read in the last decade, the above quote by Prairiemoon2 is by far the wisest, most unifying, and perceptive post I have seen.

  • seysonn
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I, personally, was talking about that guy (Mr. Eden ?), with a rake in his hand talking and lecturing like for ever. Should I give him encouragement ?

  • Lorac-OK
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The major chips were a one time thing in the 10 years I had that property.
    The film, Back to Eden, is not just about woodchips, thats about covering your soil with whatever your region has..chips is Paul's favorite, he states that in the film.

    I think what gets overlooked is the real biggie - no tilling and sustainability, without having to use a ton of water, no chemicals, gardening without insane weeds, bugs not being pests..doing all that without backbreaking work.
    And as we age - the gardens/orchards age with and for us - they gets better, produce more with less effort.

    Pnbrown I think as the years go by and the chips continue to break down, in that process they continually add more nutrients to the soil, but I am nooooooo expert on the science side of it. I used a spray fertilizer that first year, twice I think but never anything after that, no compost at all.

    Why ya'lll so against something that works so easy??
    Watch both those links a few times..theres really a lot of info there..let it sink in.
    Try it out if you live in an area where they trim trees.

    When your 60 or 70 using your rake to plant dinner you'll be sooo glad you did.

  • seysonn
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lorac -OK

    If it works for you do it. Nobody is preventing you from doing it. But then you say that it takes for years

    ((..The major chips were a one time thing in the 10 years I had that property. ..))
    BTW: Are you Paul (Mr. Eden ) ?

    Talking about age: I am more or less 70 years of age. But the topic and discussions is not what is convenient for the seniors (like me) but what works best for what we plant. .

    BACK TO WOOD CHIPS:

    Not all wood chips are created equal. Where and which part of tree (trunk, limbs, small twigs,..), from what kind of tree, soft wood, hardwood, conifer, ... the chips come from ?
    Some will take for a decade or more to disintegrate (decompose) some (soft tree tops) will melt away in a year or two and in the mean time it can generate a lot of hear, just like any conventional compost pile.
    Up until the time a wood chip is composted, what may come out of it could be things like sap, no NPK. Maybe some minerals (??)

    SURE

  • pnbrown
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lorac, why do you assume some of us have not "tried it out"?

    There aren't many styles of gardening I have not tried, at this point. I don't mean to set myself as a great expert, but it is fair to say that I have experimented a great deal. One thing I have learned is that things can change, sometimes pretty rapidly. For example, one plot I have been using for years was dominated by what deer cared to eat, and what I could protect from them, and by low fertility due to low inputs and sandy soil. A couple years ago I excluded the deer finally with fence, and bumped the fertility way up with dehydrated chicken manure and rock powders. Huge increase in crop production. Seems good, right? Not necessarily bad, but voles, present in low numbers all along, exploded in an old testament fashion, and ate almost every ear of my bread corn last fall. I surmise that a large potato crop left late in the ground the fall before fueled immense population growth. So if one is growing big crops, a lot of material on the ground all the time is highly likely to lead to a rodent problem. One rather sensationalist video about a part of one gardener's experiences, simply because it does not mention such things doesn't mean they won't happen.

    Just one example of the hundreds of real-world dynamics. Next I can tell you about birds...

  • pnbrown
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dirtguy, notably brassicas don't do as well in that plot as in other plots, and we know brassicas are the least fungal-associated of all common garden crops. Potatoes and tomatoes love it, and we know those are very happy in high fungi-soils. I attribute this largely to the very high OM in the soil, a lot of it still breaking down, though the fact that the ph is still a bit low is no doubt a factor (but not a big one because beans do pretty good).

  • planatus
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This weekend while spreading sawdust mulch beneath my blueberries I thought about Paul the BTE guy and wondered why he chose "cover" rather than "mulch." I had to write a review of the film, so I watched it three times and winced every time he said no fertilizer needed. Glad the filmmaker showed the manure-producing chickens, which appeared a bit overcrowded to me.

  • cheapheap
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would like to experiment with this method but doubt that I will have access to enough wood chips (for free/reasonable, I wouldn't pay to chip my own trees). If it is what you have, go for it!

    I have made a couple of hugel type mounds to observe. I have slow composted stable manure containing wood chips. I have tried intensive planting in raised beds, with rather predictable results - I am a reformed intensive gardener. Of course, I have double dug beds, and sometimes I have layered. One thing is for sure, doing something is better than nothing.

    Home gardening in the US is a very confused subject. It has been complicated because a rather important part of our culture has been shunned by previous (and current) generations to the extent that if a perfectly able human being were to aspire to work the earth using their own labor and inellect to provide for his or her own sustinance (without even being able to provide for others ; small children, elders) is almost entirely laughable - even with fancy tools and small gas engines (I would easily bet that even most with a small tractor and unlimited fuel would starve to death within months eating only what they could produce for themselves and their livestock). Just two, three, or four generations ago (depending on your family's speed) this type of self reliance was commonplace.

    Our culture now dictates that there is a new quick and easy solution to everything. I know that it is laughable to many gardeners, but from my reading many posters who even raise the subject seem to want to provide a substantial amount of their *family's*! nutritional and caloric intake from a raised bed that at most is 4x12! and this year! - It is just NOT going to happen. There is a yearning to replace the knowledge that we know we should have - which is why many reach for the first solution they try and defend it with the "zeal of the newly converted." - I know that "this method is different" - but go to the square foot gardening forum and find someone who has actually harvested something - browse the list or even search for "harvest" in that forum and see if that meets your expectations of a garden (I'm sorry, but it is time someone said something). The similarities to any "new" gardening method would be that there is a lot of hype and expectations that do not in any way match up to reality. It is always fun to learn, but a lot of the mistakes have already been made and it is stunning how near eons of work is tossed aside because someone has an easy to follow method, preferably supported by a book.

    I would encourage anyone who is trying to provide more for themselves to work their native soil and improve it as is practical. I am also asking a favor, - even if it is just for me, try to SPREAD OUT! there is NO reason to have an eigth of an acre back yard, want to provide food for yourself over space for your lawn, and think that you have to plan your garden in plants per square foot! - even if year one you just space out pizza boxes on your lawn and stab a tomato start through it, working the ground over time is what makes a garden ( I know that stating even working the earth is now somehow controversial - but try it, if just for me. - if history is any guide, it just might work).
    - best of luck to all!

  • Lorac-OK
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    hi seysonn. My experience it in this garden was pretty normal last year, (year 1) our last freeze is tonight, I'll start planting all the new beds this week.
    I've used chips that are from last summer in these new beds, they are from our county cleaning up the roadsides chipping small limbs with lots of green. Because they sat over winter they are a bit broken down but not enough to plant right directly into so we have started everything peat pots and will brush the chips aside to get to the broken down part, add a bit of soil and brush chips back.
    I only have one garden from last year (tornado damage took out half my yard) so far just the onions are up looking great.
    In the garden I had for 10 years at about year 3 I planted directly in the chip material, onions, herbs, lettuces..fig trees, mulberry, pomagrante..bananas - they all grew like crazy..I remember at about year 5 I had 400 bags of bananas to give to the local zoo there. Never watered, really never did much of anything except sick stuff in the ground and trim..lots of trimming and thinning out.
    I grew up in a gardening family - but I'd never seen growth like that.
    It was accidential, I used wood chips because my lot had been covered with compacted oyster shells, I could not dig thru it - it was the only thing around and free, I just wanted to cover it with the thought of getting soil when I could afford it, I'd just bought the house and lot and was pretty broke..(remolding a 200 yr old house) - I had no idea it would become my soil. I never put it together until I saw the Back to Eden film.
    I am very excited about it especially after learning why I had such a great garden, just thought I'd share here since this thread was about the BTE method.

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Very good post Cheapheap. You've made a lot of good points. I would like to hear about your experiences with intensive gardening, but since it is a little off topic, maybe you could start a new thread?

  • dirtguy50 SW MO z6a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    pnbrown, thanks for the info. I did convert one 4 x 8 bed mid summer to very well aged chipped branches with leaves and needles. (I think this is the most important misunderstanding about the covering) Anyway, I planted a fall crop of bush beans that produced 3 very full harvests with absolutely no issues. I realize fall plantings do not have a lot of the pressures of summer crops but I was amazed at the production. I converted a couple more bed to the BTE last fall to overwinter and will try some of the crops you mentioned to experiment with this spring. I am about KISS method. You know, " Keep It Simple Stupid." lol

    This post was edited by dirtguy50 on Tue, Mar 25, 14 at 23:05

  • AudreyJeanne
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    For those who don't like the method - great. Honestly. Don't use it. No pressure, no proselytizing, we're just sharing experiences. I'm fascinated by many types of gardening systems.

    I want to correct a few errors I hear repeated in posts above. You would be right to question the method if these false perceptions were true :-) :

    1. Equating sawdust, wood bark, or ground up stumps with the wood chips that are recommended. These are Ramial wood chips (the smallest branches and leaves such as those trimmed by power companies and tree services then chipped). They are substantially different in nature than the trunk wood. They also break down incredibly fast - sometimes in months not years. There's a link earlier in this post to an excellent article about building soil through ramial wood chips. It also explains the difference between the soil formed using the mulch method versus composting. They are not the same results even though using the same materials.

    2. Paul says "no fertilizer" but it's a poor choice of a phrase - in the context he's speaking about no artificial fertilizers. His entire context is of garden waste going to his chickens to feed and then using the soil/manure they create tossed back on his garden.

    3. You don't plant in the wood chips. 2 inches of compost is laid down first, then 3-4 inches of wood chips (Paul states that aged are best). He mentions that his wood chip piles are actually several years old. You plant in the soil and compost not the chips. If someone is in a hurry and wants to plant quickly - the film even shows the method being done wrong and the failures it led to. Nitrogen will need to be added if using new chips.

    4. Manures and compost can and should be added seasonally, but they only need to be spread on top and watered in.

    5. Over time, less and less chips are added. Paul says he adds new chips every 5 years or so. It is a long term process that can produce excellent results in the short term as well depending on original soil conditions and how well the process is followed.

    I enjoy hearing each person's perspective, there's really no need for animosity :-)

  • AudreyJeanne
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I located the articles I mentioned in the post above. They were actually in another forum post so might not have been able to be found:

    Ramial Chipped Wood: the Clue to a Sustainable Fertils Soil http://www.docstoc.com/docs/83576769/The-Clue

    Redefining Soil Fertility: http://www.mofga.org/Default.aspx?tabid=700

    The Hidden World that Feeds us: http://www.ipcp.org.br/References/Solos/MadeiraRamial/doc59b.pdf

  • KjensJ
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have been gardening using various methods for over 40 years. From tilling and watering by row irrigation to raised beds with drip irrigation and heavy mulching. But what I learned most from the Back to Eden film is that Paul asked God how to better do it in his location and in his situation. The answer may be different in your location with your soils, but have you asked. He does answer those who ask in faith, with a sincere heart believing that He will answer. Try it! And Listen!

  • seysonn
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hahaha. Gardening is based on science and faith has nothing to do with it. That is my faith in science. There are so many university scientists and agricultural specialist that are experimenting and doing thing systematically and scientifically. Those who do it on faith and pray for rain, sometimes end up dying of hunger.

    This post was edited by seysonn on Mon, Apr 28, 14 at 21:25

  • manylittle
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I just want to say that no one is saying that the back to eden method is the only method that works but there are many of you who are trying to encourage people not to try it and I don't think that that is right at all. We need people go get back to raising their own foods and if they get excited about trying the back to eden method, lets help them and give them advice as to how to start and let them go for it.!!!
    Now, to clear up a few misconceptions. For those of you who say that this method won't work on clay...that is what Paul G. from back to eden started on. He does have another property whose base is rocks. The method works well there also.
    In Paul's orchard, he started with 12 to 18 inches of wood chips about 30 years ago. That is all that he has ever used in his orchard. He has not added any artificial or organic fertilizers nor has he added the compost that he takes out of his chicken yard to that soil and yet he grows vegetables and herbs in his orchard with results that are just as good as in his vegetable garden that he does add his chicken compost too.
    Some of you say that people who have had great results in a one or two year old back to eden bed should not be encouraging others to try it based on their results because it not been long enough. We have the evidence of Paul's very old garden getting great results with all sorts of vegetables etc. We have the evidence of seysonn who has had an accidental bte garden for over 10 years, planted on top of oyster shells. I, myself started out with a tilled garden about 45 years agol...read the Ruth Stout books...fell in love with lasagna gardening and also ended up with an accidental bte garden because I came across a lot of free wood chips and just tried them for a top layer one year on my established lasagna garden. I also built new beds that year, ...gosh, hard to believe it was 25 years ago...started with cardboard over lawn, added a couple of inches of compost and then 5 inches of wood chips from a pile that I had gotten from a local tree trimming company the year before and was off to the races. I have gotten great results with little or no diseases and few bad bugs. Paul talks about disease and bugs going to malnourished, or otherwise stressed plants and I believe it because in my beds full of healthy plants, I don't have problems with bugs or disease.
    As far as the chips attracting termites. Termites thrive in ...dry...wood. The wood chips hold water, they gather water from the morning dew, and hold it for the plants during the day. If you worry about termites in your garden, just water it more than you would if you were going to just worry about enough water for your plants. Actually you would benefit in more ways than one. You would be gaining more compost tea for your veggies and your chips would be breaking down more quickly as water is a catalyst for that.
    For those of you who are saying that it is not sustainable because we are somehow removing or replacing the minerals in the soil with organic material, I disagree. The soil layer with its original minerals in it, will always be available underneath the mulch and as you plant in the soil layer, the plant roots easily penetrate into the soil layer with the minerals in it. In fact, the worms that the cardboard layer first attracts and the mulch retains, helps to loosen up the soil layer making it easier for the roots to travel down to gain access to more minerals than they would reach if they were grown in compacted soil. I am not a scientist, or an expert in soil biology but I have read extensively, have tried many gardening methods and will, I'm sure try more...in fact, having an excess of two liter plastic pop bottles this year, I'm going to experiment with a vertical pop bottle herb and greens garden along the southern wall of my house. I'm going to incorporate the bte method by adding a layer of wood chips to the top of my soil in the bottles to help hold the moisture. It is going to be pure experiment and I'm sure it will be fun!!! I'm also going to try and get hold of some seaweed from some lakes that are overgrown with it up north where I go fishing. The local communities pull it out of the lakes as it takes too much oxygen from the fish and stunts their growth so it is pure waste for them and I'm sure it would make great mulch. Wood chips are not the only thing that works....they are just Paul's favorite. The important thing is that a covering be used over the soil. Use whatever works in the area in which you live, but if you can gain access to wood chips, by all means, try them. And don't listen to those who say don't use wood chips in a vegetable garden. Most of those who are saying that, have not tried it. Listen to those of us who have.
    And please, for those of you who don't want to use the bte method, don't use it. Use whatever method that you want to use, just don't discourage others to try it. Let them try and let them learn what works best for them. Those of us who are sold on the bte method are not saying it is the only method under the sun, but it works for us and evidence is such that much of what people are saying about it to discourage it just does not hold water.

  • lucillle
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Seysonn,
    You are entitled to your opinions of science vs faith. To actually laugh at faith shows very poor manners. My father was a scientist, but he also taught me forbearance and respect for the ideas of others.

    Manylittle,
    I have access to wood chips through the local tree trimming company and it is one of the things that has made a huge difference in productivity in my tiny garden. I wish more people realized that these wood chips are often available free by the truckload from those companies.

  • dirtguy50 SW MO z6a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    seysonn, I am so sad you feel that way.

  • jonathanpassey
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I watched and liked the Back to Eden film. However, I agree with KjensJ that different solutions might be best for different climates and circumstances.

    I live in Northern Utah and get about the same number of total inches of water per year as the man in the film (16). However, unlike him, my soil is frozen solid for 3-4 months of the year and my temps are in the 90s for the opposite 3-4 months.

    In Sequim where the film was shot they have a very moderate climate that is similar to my best spring or fall weather year-round. It never freezes there and summer temps are relatively cool. Two distinct benefits of his climate come to mind: 1- the soil microbes and the earthworms are highly active all year because his soil never freezes (or dries out in the heat). Thus he is able to maintain a larger population of soil life than me and they deliver more nutrients to his soil/plants more rapidly than mine. This is quite different than the average person in North America who will have a traditional 4 seasons. 2- His summer is cool enough that he loses far less water from the foliage of his plants and from the surface of his soil than most of us in the United States. This may not matter if you get plenty of rain but in a dry climate trying to garden without irrigation would be futile.

    So in an effort to duplicate the results of the film without the benefits of his climate I feel like it is best for me to first: hot compost outside of the garden and then to move the finished compost into my garden regularly. that way i still benefit from lots of organic matter and microbial life in my soil but i am not frustrated by the slower decomposition rates in my climate. Second: I am using organic mulches on top of drip irrigation in an effort to use as little water as possible but still get the benefit of cool moist soil and happy microbes. I haven't decided if i will mix the mulch into the soil annually or if i will compost it and replace it but its all an experiment.

    JP

    ps. I tend to believe that God expects me to apply as much of the scientific knowledge as I can acquire to receive his blessings. Faith without works is dead. Even the guy in the video observed and measured and improved. God is not at odds with science. It is we people who are at odds. I don't think it helps much when we highlight how we are different.

    I enjoy seysonn's posts in these forums. I BOTH pray for rain AND have a drip irrigation system.... Maybe I have faith in God and Science both. Trouble is, my faith in both is weak and my spinach and beets are being destroyed by spinach leaf miners....

  • howelbama
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ^well said. Anecdotes and assertions don't get us far, but factual evidence and open minds can. To think there will ever be a universal bulletproof gardening method for all is probably not very realistic.

  • theforgottenone1013 (SE MI zone 5b/6a)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I happen to agree with seysonn's post. It's okay to believe that God (or whomever you worship) is going to provide you with ideal conditions for plant growth. But when things aren't going as planned it's up to the gardener to intervene or else risk losing the crop(s).

    This thread is getting off topic. But the sooner it reaches the post limit the better, in my opinion. A lot of excess drama and snarkiness here.

    Rodney

  • lucillle
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here is a Seysonn quote from the tomato forums:
    "Growing plants/gardening is not like a pure science like algebra to solve an equation. "

    So I think we all agree after all, that gardening is both an art and a science, and many feel faith is in the mix as well.
    I hope all of your gardens grow beautifully.

  • elisa_z5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    As we near the limit for this discussion, I want to say thank you to everyone who shared their successes and challenges withe the BTE method. There's a lot to think about here!

    As my grandfather used to say (in Italian): to each his own.
    And as my brother says: Everyone is different, and I'm no different from any body else.

    Happy gardening, everyone -- with or without wood chips!

  • seysonn
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Posted by dirtguy50 6a SW MO (My Page) on
    Mon, May 19, 14 at 22:00

    seysonn, I am so sad you feel that way.
    ----------------
    Thank you but please don't feel sad for me.

    Lucille wrote:
    Here is a Seysonn quote from the tomato forums:
    "Growing plants/gardening is not like a pure science like algebra to solve an equation. "

    @lucille,
    I don,t see a contradiction here. What I said is true. Health science, biology, botany, .. are science but nut "PURE" science like mathematics, because there are so many variables and factors that not all of those can be weighed in precisely.

    And, Yes "Gardening" is a combination of art and science.
    How things grow are based on science(complex) and how one goes about designing beds, trimming, pruning, choosing what to grow, how to arrange the things ..so fort is or can be an art form.

    I hope I explained it simple enough so that you can understand it.

  • lucillle
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "I hope I explained it simple enough so that you can understand it." Pure snark.

    I do understand and disagree that you actually laughed at religion several posts up. I feel there is no need to mock faith, Seysonn.

    Back to the subject, this has been an interesting thread and I'm sure that Eden part II is going to be created. With wood chips widely available but underutilized, I am interested to hear how additional people who use the BTE method fare.

  • manylittle
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm up in west central Wisconsin. The BTE method works well here so I can see no reason why it won't work in northern Utah. The studies done by the Canadians say that the only place that this won't work are places that have very cold wet conditions, like maybe the peat and permafrost bogs up in the tundra. Not to say that chips can't handle lots of rain, they can, they can absorb, I think 27 times their own weight in water and then leach it out to the plants when they need it. Those of you who think it is bad if the chips get into the soil instead of on top of it are mistaken also. The Canadians actually say that the chips should first be disked into the first 6 inches of the soil so no harm done if you are using layering and when you dig your potatoes, chips fall into the holes. I want to give you guys a quote from that article and then, I say to you...unless you yourself have tried it, in a vegetable bed and following the BTE guidelines, you should not knock it because you are under assumptions based on incomplete knowledge and the opinions of other people who may have different motivations for not wanting others to try the system. I enjoy forums like these but get very frustrated with only one type of person and they are the ones with a closed mind who no matter what logic is presented to them, will never change from their first opinion. I think that we are all here to learn and grow and people like that do neither. I wish I understood what it is that makes some people so resistant to trying something different. Please don't get me wrong. I am not saying that there are not other very good methods of growing food, but as far as labor saving incorporated with building good soil, preserving our water, and getting high yields with some of the highest water content and best flavor that I have ever seen I can think of no method that is better than the BTE method. I think that wood chips made of hardwood twigs and branches under 3 inches in diameter is best but Paul has stated that he uses all sorts of wood and the only thing he has tried that did not work was eucalyptus because of the oil that it contains that is toxic to other plants. All other woods, even some that are said to have toxic elements to them seem to have that stuff made neutral by the filtration through the layers before it gets to the roots of the plants......at least that is the unscientific opinion based on logic. On the subject of weather you 'have' to use wood chips, he has stated that anything used as a cover mulch is better than leaving the soil uncovered but his favorite are the chips because of their unparalleled results. Here is the quote that I promised you....".RCWs must be carefully looked at in both the southern and the northern hemispheres. More than 75% of nutrients are stored in twigs. Twigs are the center of life, stemwood being the result of the whole crown activity. Twigs, once chipped and brought in close contact with the soil, momentarily replace the rootlets that are constantly transformed into short-lived aggregates by the soil microorganisms. These aggregates are the managers of soil nutrients and energy for the ecosystem's own sake. They enable biological actors to play their vital role, from virus to mammals, using available energy and nutrients. It is of prime importance to understand and visualize the whole picture and the role played by each actor in this wonderful evolution of nature's work from which we now benefit after so many millions of years." I learned something else from reading that article. The type of humus that our prairies produced do not have a long life but has to be continuously replenished while the type of humus produced in the woods can have a life of up to a thousand years. The article explains it much better than I can. This string has seen the input of many people from all parts of the country with many different types of soil from oyster shells, to pure sand (me) and to clay, who by first hand knowledge of using the method from 1 year to many many years say that the method works and they are enthusiastic about the results that they get. The people who are telling you that it won't work, for the most part have not tried it and if they did, they did not go all of the way. If I were to do my garden beds all over again from scratch I would combine the lessons from the Canadian study which say to disk in the chips in the first 6 or so inches of the soil and the lessons from the BTE film which says to use them as a mulch. I would do both. I would also use all of the compost that I could make but I would never rely on compost just mixed into the soil leaving the earth uncovered with a mulch again. The moisture loss is just too much compared with the moisture savings that mulch gives you. I know that this is a long and rambling statement, but that is just the way that I think and I think it is important to share with you my thoughts on this method. People.....just try it....you will not regret it. and.......thanks for listening and God bless you all.

  • dirtguy50 SW MO z6a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    seysonn, you totally missed the message. That is what I am sad about. You don't get it.

  • dirtguy50 SW MO z6a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    seysonn, you totally missed the message. That is what I am sad about. You don't get it.
    Chemicals are not the answer. They are making our soil sterile and completely depleting the nutrients from our food. I wish you we more open to nature which has worked for centuries. Man is not smarter than nature. Believe what you want. Just hope you take this a good post..

    This post was edited by dirtguy50 on Thu, May 22, 14 at 23:44

  • pnbrown
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Manylittle, I request that you make use of paragraphing. I suspect not many will read through a long post of one paragraph.

    Jonathan Passey of several posts back frames the case very well. I suggest everyone read his post carefully.

    In short, to say that mulch rarely is a bad thing (harboring rodents is the main knock against it, or fire-ants in the South) is not equal to solving serious deficits. Notably, it does not solve major nutrient deficiency. We experienced gardeners are attempting to counter the hyperbole in this regard. Those who come along and claim that any critique of the BTE method can only come from those who have never used deep mulch is silly, because few if any experienced gardeners have not experimented with all sorts of mulches.

  • Timothy Birthisel
    8 years ago

    I have been vegetable gardening for 40 years, and recently retired from a 37 year career as an agricultural research and development manager. For most of this time I have used the European style of raised bed intensive gardens in my hobby, and thought that was ideal.

    I tried the BTE method last year for the first time, since I had moved to a hilly property and was establishing new beds. The beds are laid out like terraces on the hillside, supported by wood walls, set into the slope with level tops. The slope is so steep it's more like climbing/sliding than walking around them, so I was hoping the low maintenance feature would be an advantage.

    Bottom line, I have doubled the area using BTE this year, my first year results were amazingly successful. The only "problem" I had was that my usual plant spacing produced such dense results that I felt like I was going on safari to find most of the peppers I grew, frustrated because I never found them all. The tomatoes tended to topple when laden with fruit, but I had the same problem in raised soil beds as well. I will need rebar supports apparently, the heavy duty garden center cages I used are too wimpy.

    I agree that agronomically speaking the BTE method makes little sense, and the results I saw makes me realize that our scientific methodology needs improvement. It strikes me that the really important aspect to understand in soil is the surface of the individual soil particles, and unfortunately when we test soils it is a homogenized mixture of a core sample that is analyzed. Unfortunately in this way, the complexity of the soil environment is lost.

    We are only beginning to be able to systemically study the thousands of different micro-organisms in the soil, because they have been extremely difficult to quantify and identify. Now that we have genetic analysis methodology, more science will become available to document the functions and importance of the biology living in the soil.

    Besides retaining moisture, which is a HUGE advantage for the plants and the soil fungal / microbial community that apparently provides a near ideal environment, I am convinced that there is nitrogen fixation happening deep in the BTE beds. The organic acids from the compost are dissolving soil nutrients at the bottom of the beds and the filaments of the mycorrhizae are transporting them upwards into the profile because the filaments are not broken up by any tilling.

    Personally, I am a bit reluctant to try too hard to convince the conventional thinkers (of which I was one) to try Back to Eden Gardening, because once everyone realizes how good the method is, it won't be possible to talk the local landscapers into dumping their chips on my property for free.

    Seriously, I am convinced this method will help the public realize the shortcomings of our conventional ag cropping system, which is unfortunately helping to turn North America into a desert. Have you ever visited farms in Europe, where they have several centuries of additional farming practice in their history? One word, dismal.

    We need to wake up to the reality of our ties to a healthy earth if we want to continue to flourish. Meanwhile as Voltaire said, "We must tend our gardens," only now, that means mostly just watching them grow!

  • angelmat37
    8 years ago

    I skimmed most of the comments, but it is not all about wood chips. Most people in my area have tried it but have not incorporated all what Paul said or followed what he said. I live in a state with plenty of trees and wood chips and with no effort a tiny seed falls and by summer you have a four foot tree. It is interesting to do what he says first, "observe," He also has chickens that are fed from his garden waste and veggies they provide the rich compost in the area where they walk around. This compost is key for planting in soil not wood chips.


    We have friends who have not seen the video and on their own have begun doing what Paul has done. Their garden is amazing. Growing grapes that can't be grown in our area. Fruit trees growing faster then expected and everything tastes so good. We just started but we are amazed. There is a four hour version of Back to Eden that a private group of people made where Paul gives more clear instruction. Three things people do. They till the soil, make raised beds and don't have enough composite soil or a way to continue producing composted soil. These things are very important. Providing compost through chickens, rabbits or horse manure. Paul explains in more detail in the four hour version. The couple who don't know the method are using rabbit manure and I have never seen such a garden and they are providing covering. The veggies I have tasted so far are full of water and tasted so good that I can't eat a regular cucumber from the store, garlic, potato or lettuce. I live on the opposite side of the country from Paul and a covering works. It does not ruin anything. Paul was asked," What about termites." His answer, "Great it helps decompose the wood." Don't till your soil or try raised beds and just follow what he did. Green houses are great, but they must have a few panels open for real sunlight. He goes into detail of how he grew crops next to crops to protect them. Very interesting. My friends through observation found the same thing works for them and they again as I said have not watched Back to Eden.



  • William O'Dell
    8 years ago

    I started my 8,000 sq. ft. BTE garden 12 months ago and absolutely love it. The effort involved is just a fraction of a standard garden. I started my BTE for many reasons mostly to reduce the work load as I am now 67 and wanted to ease my burden for future years. I live in North Central Florida and like most of Florida it is all sand. I started with 5, 000 sq. ft. using paper and four to six inches of quality wood chips, the balance of the garden has 6 inches of oak leaves and 6 inches of wood chips. Both methods are doing great especially in the leave wood chip areas. I am 100% organic so this was right down my alley. Since starting a year ago I have added more wood chips 2 to 3 times as they are breaking down fast. Key is to keep them damp as possible and promote good fungal activity. Weeding is almost a thing of the past. Like Paul, I maintain my whole garden with a single garden rake. Each and every month it just keeps getting better. I use fish emulsion, Mushroom Fungi and compost tea on my garden every two to three weeks. Never had a over water problem to date even with 10 inches of rain in three days, however it can still go dry with the sand as time goes by this will change as well. It rained every day for over 30 days and the garden survived just fine. Plant root systems are abundant and far reaching both lateral and deep. I had huge Candy onions for the first time last spring. Some approached two pounds. I am starting my Fall garden now and am looking forward to the Fall and Winter growing season. I have an abundance of trees and the leaves make a great source to re-mineralize the garden and for adding more organic material. I grow Blue Berries and Black Berries side beside with all sorts of vegetables. My Ph has balanced close to 6.8 to 7.0. all across the garden. I started with 250 cubic yards of quality wood chips and have about 6 full loads left to use as needed. This whole process is about building a living soil that will support abundant growing each and every season. I am a firm believer in this method as the results speak to the validity and truth of the method. My second stage to this process is to build a Chicken operation that will support 30 chickens to give me a full self sustaining garden. Paul has the right idea about chickens, they do make great garden soil if you follow what he actually practices.

    Best Regards

    Bill

  • gawhitemoose
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    This just blows me away. All that the BTE system is, is ONE way of doing things that works for SOME people.

    What happens is the "dirt turns to soil".

    Why do people come on here and bash the guy for sharing something wonderful?? Hey- try it !!! If it works for you..... GREAT !!! If it doesn't..... move on to something else.

    And it doesn't have to be "just wood chips"- he says to try what you have in your area.... straw, leaves, ROCKS, whatever !! We are told to be creative.

    Use your heads and do some research. There are SEVERAL ways to garden- choose one (or a combo of several) and stick with it. When you have great results, share with others. Show others what could possibly happen if they do what you did. :)

  • Aaron Savage
    7 years ago

    I live in the UK, and I am one of the many allotment holders. That means we lease a piece of land (mine is 45m by 5m) to grow food. My soil is basically clay that has had a great deal of sand added to it. I took the plot over last year. I have couch grass, doc plants, and mares tail to contend with. I am centrally placed and on high ground. My plot slopes away to the North but does get sun through the day. For those who do not know the UK is wet, very wet. Our winters are milder in recent years (could be global warming, could be a cycle, the why and how is probably not as relevant as the fact that it is). We haven't seen snow for about 2 years. We have cold snaps in Spring but do get decent temperatures in Summer albeit with more rainfall than non gardeners are happy with. I have been gardening for 4 seasons, although last summer I had heart surgery and so I missed the Autumn and part of the Winter season last year. I am now building back fitness.

    I saw BTE and also checked out the L2Survive Youtube channel. Given the health issues I have dealt with I decided to give BTE a try. I have a access to a never ending supply of horse manure (Some well rotted some fresh as morning dew) and we also have a local arborist who is only too happy to drop off a truck full of wood chips. Both of these are free. I don't have easy access to ready made compost and so I either have to buy it or make it. Given the quantities I need it in making it has been less than optimal so far.

    I decided to adapt and work with what I had. Given my perennial weed problems I dug the couch grass docs and as much mares tail as I could out of an area of my plot, I then out in some manure, covered that with the dirt, planted my garlic and onion seedlings with last year's potato compost and then mulched the whole area with 2 year old rotting wood chips. On the footpaths I have built up nearly a foot of wood chips. In the beds around the onions and garlic I have built it up to between 4 and 6 inches with lower levels scooped out where the actual plants are so the don't get buried.

    This was a few weeks ago, and I intend to film every part of the experience, the good, the bad and the ugly throughout the year for my Youtube channel. Here is the first video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZYRgvzlyQU

    I have read every comment on this thread and here are my thoughts.

    The Back to Eden method clearly does work, there is a film that demonstrates that it works.

    Whether Paul Grautschi invented, discovered or copied someone else's method isn't really the point and certainly not a point I am interested in.

    Paul clearly has a very personal relationship with his God. I am happy for him. I don't share it but I certainly would never mock him or anyone else for it.

    Whether it really is God talking to him or just him figuring things out in his sub conscious and calling that God is irrelevant.

    I have an Open Mind and I think that will be enough.

    The real questions that matter to me are (given that there is a film showing it working).

    How does it work?

    How long does it take to work?

    Under what circumstances will it work?

    What needs to happen for it to carry on working?

    Unless those questions are the basis of a response then the comment probably isn't any use to me.

    If my experiment doesn't work then that isn't the end of the world, because as long as I have learned what happened, then I am fine with that.

    If my experiment doesn't work then of course those who oppose the method have a case study to crow about. I could be every Christmas and birthday in one package.

    If it does work and even someone with little experience and less mobility than normal can make it work, then those who oppose the method have a problem.

    I am very happy to hear from people with answers to the questions that matter to me, or who would like to clarify anything that I have said, to see if we can reach a scientific explanation that takes into account different climates, weather patterns and growing conditions.






  • dirtguy50 SW MO z6a
    7 years ago

    Might I suggest you start your own thread specific to what you seem to want answers for. This thread is open to anything Back to Eden style going way back to 2012 and not limited to just answers you want. A separate thread IMO would serve you better.

  • mickelcar29
    6 years ago

    I think a lot of people are confused about the term "woodchip". In one of the tour videos, he explains that he is talking about the leafy, twig and thin branches lopped from around power lines etc. ' the green living part of the tree, not the dead trunk'. He actually talks about leaves breaking down quickly while the other breaks down slowly.

  • theforgottenone1013 (SE MI zone 5b/6a)
    6 years ago

    Can't believe this thread is still going.... Kinda makes me yearn for the days when there was a 150 comment limit on threads. lol It is nice to see some of the names of the old regulars who have left us over the years. All that combined knowledge gone, their personalities.... Sigh.

    As for the thread itself. The Back To Eden method is pretty much just a permanent deep mulching system. Gardeners have been mulching their ornamental beds and shrubs and trees for quite a while with wood chips so the method itself is nothing new, it is just being applied to vegetable gardens now. I can see some merit for doing this is you aren't into amending your soil directly and are transplanting things like tomatoes, peppers, squash and the like but for things with fine seed like carrots it seems like a nuisance to have to pull back all the mulch to plant. I plant 4x8 beds of root vegetables so keeping a permanent mulch on my garden would mean more work for me.

    Rodney

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    6 years ago

    Rodney - You're funny. First you say, you 'sorta' yearn for the days when there was a 150 comment limit on threads, then you post another response to this one. You couldn't resist adding your opinion. [g]

    I don't understand why you care if other members want to resurrect or continue a discussion. No one is twisting your arm to continue to discuss. And if you look at the bottom left below the last comment in any given thread, In green, it says ... "Click to switch off notifications about new comments."

    So when you have had enough of the subject - there you go. One click and you can be completely unaware of other people discussing what you're tired of talking about. :-)

  • mickelcar29
    6 years ago

    Rodney - your comment reminds me of a person on a meme page in a comment section of one meme that had a conversation going not on topic. Kept posting that it was a meme page and people should only post memes.

    As to "but for things with fine seed like carrots it seems like a nuisance to have to pull back all the mulch to plant", if you watch his videos you see him plant by using edge of rake to create a furrow. And in another is planting fine seed, only adding that he using a string line as a guide. The only digging I've seen is when he harvests and replants potato.

    But looking at you tube videos, the best way to garden is the way that gives the individual gardener the result they want.

    Mick

  • rgreen48
    6 years ago

    WARNING! 3RD RAIL! :-D

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    6 years ago

    @ rgreen -- lol.

  • theforgottenone1013 (SE MI zone 5b/6a)
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Geez. The first sentence of my previous comment was meant more in a playful way and was written because of all the previous animosity this gardening method provoked. Sometimes written word doesn't exactly convey the author's feelings/intentions well. Obviously if the discussions stays civilized there is nothing wrong with a an old thread being brought back up. You all take things too seriously at times....

    Rodney

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Whose the one taking it too seriously? I agree with you, the written word does a poor job of conveying the emotion and intent behind it. And in part emoticons are inserted to try to remedy that. You see the grins and the smiles added to my post? That intent is to convey - it's not a big deal. And Rgreen's joke about look out - it's a hot subject. and his large grin. My response - lol.

    I wasn't trying to give you a hard time, just expressing that, in my opinion, a 150 comment limit is unnecessary. Some people want to continue to discuss, some don't. That's what the option to turn off notification is all about.

  • nc_crn
    6 years ago

    I still have strong feelings about incorporating massive amounts of uncomposted wood chips (chips, limbs, whatever) into the soil, but I now require a $9.95 donation to my cult to explain my strong feelings. They haven't changed at all compared to what I've said in the past, but I really need the money.


    Hello all.

  • Timothy Birthisel
    6 years ago

    Please post your data

  • rgreen48
    6 years ago

    To whom are you referring Timothy? If everyone... mine was just a light joke about the passionate tenor of the subject at hand.

  • LoneJack Zn 6a, KC
    6 years ago

    nc_crn - good to see you posting on the veggie forum again! I'll donate $9.95 to your cult if you stick around and contribute again!

  • nc_crn
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Haha.

    Yeah, I miss the forums sometimes, and I do lurk.

    I rarely post anymore because of weird censorship on a forum I was active in. Their Houzz-approved moderators have created some weird power grabs (looking at you Organic Gardening forum).

    I'm not trying to create drama, just explaining why I'd rather not contribute much when an entire body of work across multiple posts (comments and posts, current and past) can be blocked on the whim of a moderator.

    I do enjoy lurking and reading other's questions/answers as well as people showing off their gardens/harvests. I'm settling for that for the most part.