To make a long rant short, I would gladly use liquid Sevin on my garden liberally before coming within 10 feet of Pyrethrum. Use Sevin .... you will be perfectly fine. Truth be known they use much harsher insecticides on the veggies you buy in the store or eat at a restaurant.

Interesting. I wonder why mosquito foggers often use pyrethrins and not Sevin? I would think the manufacturers of these products realize the foggers are airborne therefor human skin contact and inhalation are to be expected. Why would they not choose Sevin? Hmmm... ;-)

The LD50 of a pesticide is simply the does at which 50% of those exposed would die. It's almost not worth considering given that most pesticides available to those without a license have low acute toxicity/high LD50s. The reasons are pretty obvious as most home gardeners aren't going to wear protective clothing and respirators necessary to apply more acutely toxic pesticides safely.

Of more concern to me is the fact that there are generally no long term exposure studies for humans. No studies of how a young, developing child's exposure may differ from that of an adult. It isn't so much eating the sprayed produce (after the waiting period has elapsed either (although it's a concern), it's the repeated incidental exposure from skin contact and inhalation while mixing and applying.

However, of even more concern to *me* is the toxicity to things I don't want dead. Pretty much every university extension service I have read agrees those who regularly use broad spectrum insecticides in their gardens end up with more pest problems than those who do not. The logic is straightforward. All insects die, not just the pest. Pest bugs reproduce faster than bugs which eat them so as soon as the pesticide wears off the pest bugs are now able to enter the garden and reproduce with reduced predation.

Before too long one is spraying often enough that they exceed the maximum number of applications per crop the label indicates or they start mixing the pesticide at a stronger dose than the label allows.

Given the availability of more selective pesticides in many cases or broad spectrum pesticides with a shorter lifespan in the environment I guess I don't get why one would go for something like Sevin as a garden cure all.

To each their own, I guess.

Look at some of these. You can't always group the same catagory as harmful. Look at the Carbamate one has a LD50 of 307 and one 1. Alot of difference in "Sevin" and "Temik". Alot of diffrent info on LD50 doses. Alot of people have diffrent views on "Sevin". My brother in law once told me that "sevin" was organic. I tried to tell him no but he had one of his friends tell him so. He is one of those types of guys. Or am I wrong? Almost everything has some type of LD50 look at table salt's LD50. Yes, you can use sevin but read, read and follow, follow Label.

Carbamate
Carbaryl ("Sevin") Oral LD50 in Rats(mg/kg) of 307
Aldicarb ("Temik") Oral LD50 in Rats(mg/kg) of 1
Plant extract
Pyrethrins Oral LD50 in Rats(mg/kg) of 200
Rotenone Oral LD50 in Rats(mg/kg) of 60

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/L/LD50.html

Let us assume a gardener wants to control Colorado potato beetle. He or she has several insecticides available, including Thiodan, Bacillus thuringiensis variety san diego (sold as M-ONE), or Sevin. Thiodan (endosulfan) has a dermal LD 50 value of 74, or in other words, 0.011 pounds for a person weighing 150 pounds. Bacillus thuringiensis variety san diego is nontoxic. Sevin (carbaryl) has a dermal LD 50 value of 4,000, or 0.600 pounds for a 150 pound person. From an acute toxicity standpoint, Bacillus thuringiensis is the safest product. Of the two synthetic pesticides, Sevin is much safer than Thiodan. In fact, Sevin is 54 times safer than Thiodan (4,000/74 = 54). A gardener who is concerned about acute toxicity might use either Bacillus thuringiensis or Sevin, but would probably not choose to use Thiodan for controlling Colorado potato beetle.

http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/ipm/insects/ld50.htm

Examples
Oral LD50 of Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) in rats is 11.9 g/kg . [5]
Oral LD50 of Grain alcohol: 10.6 g/kg in young rats, 7.06 g/kg in aged rats.[6]
Oral LD50 of Table Salt: 3 g/kg in rats[7]
Oral LD50 of Nicotine: 50 mg/kg in rats.[8]
LD50 of Tetrahydrocannabinol (active ingredient found in Cannabis): 1270 mg/kg in rats.
LD50 of Batrachotoxin: estimated at 1 to 2 g/kg in humans.[citation needed]
LD50 of Polonium 210: estimated at 10 ng/kg (inhaled) to 50 ng/kg (ingested) in humans makes this one of the most toxic substances known. One gram in theory could poison 100 million people of which 50 million would die.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LD50

Excellent post, ccromwell78 !

Reading the labels is mandatory to even have a hope of safe pesticide usage and the LD 50 is something to consider, BUT...

there is much more than the LD-50 to look at.

Some folks simply 'get it' and will do their homework and make informed decisions as to what they will or will not use and under what circumstances.

Many others will not as your friend who insisted Sevin was organic illustrate. Organic or man made seems like a rather arbitrary designation anyway when comparing pesticides.

Sometimes I feel like a preacher on the topic of pesticides and I suppose I am.

I guess I am OK with that as long as I keep encountering people who clearly are not even reading the labels on the products they use or folks who call nervous system disruptors or chemicals known to affect human and mammalian reproductive systems 'benign'.

To each their own, but yikes! Anyone who gives produce away or has children or pets, in my opinion, has an ethical (and in my opinion they ought to have a *legal* obligation) to at least read the stinkin label and use the pesticide in accordance with those instructions.

I really don't feel too badly about 'lecturing' people who aren't doing that. They are a threat not only to themselves, but everyone and everything that comes in contact with the edibles they used the pesticide on.

How does a simple question end up causing a debate?? For me, it was can Sevin be used in a Veggie garden.

Now knowing Sevin is less toxic then Nicotine, I'm going to use it without worry. Shoot, I put Nicotine in my mouth everyday so if I end up eating a little Sevin in a month or so, it's not a cause to worry.

BTW, I still don't know what's eating my bean plant leaves. When I checked today, it hasn't gotten any worse and I'm really thinking it's some kind of beetle. My reasoning is because a neighbor. When I was speaking with her last night, she said she found beetles munching on her plant leaves. She didn't know what kind of beetles they were but she's now ready to spay too.

Crabjoe,
You can safely use Sevin if the 'beetle' and the vegetable are on the Sevin label. You'll need to check the label for proper dosing.

Pam

How does a simple question end up causing a debate?? For me, it was can Sevin be used in a Veggie garden.

I think because you are in possession of a pesticide whose label you did not read. Had you read the label you wouldn't have asked the question.

The very front label on the product indicates the types of plants it is suitable to use on.

While Sevin is less toxic than nicotine in terms of it's LD-50 if that is all you really care about then you may as well spray RAID on your veggies. It's less toxic too.

What you put on your edibles that only you eat is your business, but frankly it scares me that people are OK with being so careless as to not even read a label on a pesticide.

You life, your health, your call and I just hope you don't cause too much damage to living things beyond your property boundaries.

Many chemicals that a 5 year old could buy from Wal-Mart have since been restricted from residential use (such as Daconil for turf grass use) precisely because users couldn't be counted on to use the product according to label instructions that they weren't even reading and environmental damage was the end result. This means damage extending well beyond their property and person.

Unfortunately nobody is tracking the damage to humans caused by home gardeners spraying their edibles with pesticides they haven't a clue how to use (because they haven't read the label) and then allowing others to eat unaware they were being fed pesticides used in ways the label indicated as unsafe.

Again, sorry to be preachy, but READ THE FREAKIN LABEL!!!! You are using a toxin known to kill earthworms, pollinating bees, disrupt *human* nervous systems and is a *known* carcinogen and is suspected to be a ground water pollutant and you haven't even read the label to know what it says for use on edibles.

Hi justaguy2,
It is a violation of Federal Law to use a product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling. We can all be held responsible for harming others and the environment by misuse of pesticides, both criminally and financially...so there may be hope yet!

Pam

You can safely use Sevin if the 'beetle' and the vegetable are on the Sevin label.

I'm not sure this was phrased in the best way. It makes me want to ask... so it's not 'safe' to use it on a beetle that is not on the list? It's 'safety' or 'toxicity' is the same regardless.

While some people are worried about what they are putting in their own bodies, it is also important to understand how using systemic pesticides affects the insects we do want in our garden which pollinate, eat our pests, and contribute positively to our gardens and wildlife. Carbaryl is an insecticide and like any other insecticide, it must be toxic to insects to be effective. And, like all pesticides, carbaryl is also toxic to certain nontarget organisms, including humans.

We do know that carbaryl is quite toxic to honey bees, certain beneficial insects such as lady beetles, and parasitic wasps and bees, certain species of aquatic insects, and some forms of shellfish such as shrimp and crabs. Care must be taken when using carbaryl in areas where these organisms exist.

See the full article on Cornell Universityâs Website:
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/facts-slides-self/facts/gen-pubre-sevin.html

You can do a search for any pesticide's Material Safety Data Sheet.

This is the result for carbaryl:

Tech Pac, LLC - July 2001

SECTION 3 - HEALTH HAZARD DATA
EMERGENCY OVERVIEW
A creamy, tan, odorless liquid:
* Harmful if swallowed.
* Extremely toxic to aquatic and estuarine invertebrates.
* Highly toxic to bees.
* Causes injury to Boston Ivy, Virginia Creeper and Maidenhair fern. During early season, may injure Virginia and Sand pines.
ROUTE(S) OF ENTRY: Ingestion
EYES: May cause minimal irritation.
SKIN: May cause slight irritation.
INGESTION: Harmful if swallowed.
SIGNS AND SYMPTOMS: Harmful if ingested. This product causes reversible cholinesterase inhibition. Repeated overexposure may cause more severe cholinesterase inhibition with more pronounced signs and symptoms. May lead to rapid onset of nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, involuntary shaking, excess salivation, pinpoint pupils, blurred vision, profuse sweating, temporary paralysis, respiratory depression, and convulsions.

There are plenty of things "less toxic than nicotine" that I won't drop dead from tomorrow. But it's the accumulation of those little things over time that can cause triggers later in life. The body is a complex machine and I personally have no desire to injest any more toxins than I have to. We have enough of them in the paint on our walls, the standard household cleaners, etc. As a gardener, my nature is to preserve life, especially the little guys that create and maintain the ecosystem in my yard.

As someone else suggested, it's easy to create an effective deterrent by grinding up some marigold leaves and roots with water and a teaspoon of citrus dishsoap. Lavender works well too. There are so many methods that are safe, so much less expensive and nature friendly, why not use them?

pkponder that is not quite what the chart says. If you look under "Oral dose to kill a 150 lb. person (lbs.)", it shows that dose of of 0.128 POUNDS of pure sevin, taken orally, would be lethal to half the people who weigh 150 lb. Not milligrams here, POUNDS (as in 2 OUNCES).

0.128 pounds equals 58,000 milligrams, not 850 milligrams. Huge difference.

However, Ortho Garden Dust is not pure Sevin: it is diluated to only 5% Sevin and 95% powder so you would have to injest 20 times that amount, or 2.6 pounds of Ortho Garden Dust to pick up a lethal dose. I doubt most of us could force ourselves to eat and keep 2.6 pounds of ANYTHING never mind eat 2.6 pounds of Ortho Garden Dust.

What you are looking at in the other column is Oral LD50 (mg/kg), which means 850 mg of Sevin per every kilogram of body weight, would kill half the people. A 150 pound human weighs 68 kilograms and so it would take 68 x .850 = 57 grams = 2 ounce = 0.128 pounds of pure sevin to kill 1/2 the people. The other half of the people would require more sevin to kill them.

I agree with you that people should not indiscriminately spray willy-nilly without having an idea what the local pests are and what is it you are trying to kill.

However, once a person makes an informed decision to use an insecticide and we are discussing safety risks, I prefer to rely on ACTUAL TEST RESULTS for the facts, and in this case the facts are well established. Otherwise it borders on scare tactics, or prostelytizing.

If somebody chooses to grow organically, because it works, because they want to save the earth, it seems agreeable with their politics, or to add to their karma -- fine. We are adults here and that is personal choice. I choose organic methods because they work for me at this time, and I see no reason to change them as long as they continue to work for me. They might not work for you. However, when people overstate the effects of pesticides and bring in the scare factor, that's where fairness demands we look at the actual numbers.

For example regarding chronic effoects of carbaryl, according to the National Institute of Health

"Chronic Health Effects: MSDS: Neurotoxicity: Carbaryl is not considered to be a neurotoxin in the sense of producing direct histopathological changes to nerve tissue. Delayed and irreversible neurotoxic effects have not been observed in vertebrate species including man."

"Teratogenicity: Carbaryl is not considered to be a teratogen or a chemical that causes birth defects."

"Mutagenicity: Carbaryl has demonstrated positive findings when tested in some in vitro systems; however, results from in vivo mammalian investigations have been negative."

An observation on this subject............ The use of Sevin [or any toxic material] on young plants before the fruit is formed would be less problematic than dusting or spraying it on the edible fruits or leaves. Also the timing and amount used is a signifigant factor too.

When I was a pesticide inspector for NYS (I'm giving my credentials as others before have done), we always told our "audience" that "The label is the law." So if you have not identified your plant (you have) or your pest (you have not), how can you tell if you are following the law. Since the label is the law, you MUST read the label, then follow it. If you have not done these things, and someone were to consume your veggie, or get "drifted" upon by a spray, you could face great liability. Even if it was not true, you'd have to defend yourself because anyone can sue for anything, true or false. Your only defense would be that you read the label, identified the pest and plant, then applied the material in the prescribed manner.
If the threat of putting something in your body isn't enough to make you follow these guidelines, perhaps a potential lawsuit would raise your "understanding" of the responsibility of of using poisons.
Just as in medicine you use the least harmful material to achieve the desired affect within the law.

You could take a sample of your plant to the county extension office where they may help you identify what the problem is. Then you'd have information to begin your search for either a chemical or an organic was to solve the problem. It may be something as simple as slugs eating the bean leaves at night. I've had this happen, and got up early several mornings while it was still cool and hand picked the critters off the plants. It cuts down considerably on the damage and does so in a way that won't hurt other organisms.

I grow organically. If I didn't I'd just go to the store and buy things that have already been sprayed with whatever pesticides were used. Don't push the envelope and use things when you don't know EXACTLY what you are doing to WHAT and for WHAT.

Everyone should take this seriously for yourselves, your kids, your neighbors, the good bugs, etc.
Ann

Nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Clock

Can I use liquid Sevin or Sevin powder on my rhubarb to control Lixus concavus aka rhubarb curclio aka snout beetle.?? I live in Idaho and my rhubarb is under attack.

Dang. If you think Sevin is bad, you should read the rural living forums where people use it on their chickens and pets to kill fleas and ticks!!

My question is, would Sevin also kill beneficials like lacewings? I did a small dusting on my plum tree because the leaves have been getting chewed bad. I rarely use the stuff and I dont want to kill all the lacewings that have been breeding.

" I wonder why mosquito foggers often use pyrethrins and not Sevin? I would think the manufacturers of these products realize the foggers are airborne therefor human skin contact and inhal"ation are to be expected. Why would they not choose Sevin?"

Pyrethrum is an oil which is easily atomized for wide dispersal. And the droplets will stick to anything they touch.

Sevin is a solid (milled into a powder) that quickly settles to the ground.

Here we go again.
I prefer to learn the habits of insects and beat them at their own game. I find this reduces the need or desire to use insecticides. There are some plants in some areas that will be problematic without and iffy without some help though. In these cases it is best to learn how and what to use and how and when to use insecticides with the least risk to bees and other life including humans.

Find what is doing the damage...go from there.

Do we really need to drag up a 7 year old discussion that has been shelved for at least 3 years to debate this all over again?

Dave

Natural control for Japanese beetles: Don't have a lawn or live within a mile of any grass; Buy all your neighbors a Bag-a-Bug (but don't use one yourself because they attract the beetles); Import bacterial controls, like Milky Spore, from Japan where they are endemic (already shown to be of very limited effectiveness, and very expensive.)

Blaze....Sevin is a broad spectrum insecticide. It will kill beneficials. It also kills earthworms.

Thank you rhizo!

I had thought as much. I never use it but my Plum tree is still young and the leaves are really getting chewed to the point of almost bare. Well, not bare yet but I want to stop it before it does.

Anyways, I dont use this stuff and I stick with "organic" non pesticides but I do reserve some items for rare cases. Out of all the years I have had this Sevin dust, I have used it maybe 3 times? I bought I 3 pack about 5 years ago and I havent even used a quarter of one bottle yet.

I was reading the rural living website somewhere and people actually dust their chickens and pets with this stuff...lol

Terry neoh..

EDIT: I was thinking of Milky Spore...lol.

I have a huge front yard with grass :-( We get sooo many of them every year, although last year I seen ZERO but Im afraid this year will be bad! My pup eats them, she loves the beetles!!

It doesnt matter how old a thread is, the information is still relevant.

blaze -- yep, every summer my neighbors send the *children* out to dust all eight or nine of their dogs with sevin.

I used some chemicals when I first started gardening. You know what? The more I used the worse my pests were.
My next door neighbor loves his insecticides. We both had a tick infestation a few years ago. I found the rare tick on my dogs. He found hundreds of them.
My yard is loaded with butterflies, bees, all sorts of predatory insects. I have huge trees everywhere and for awhile I had a big brush pile.
He has a sterile yard of gravel. A few bushes. He also has a huge scorpion problem.
Hmm. We don't use herbicides or fungicides. I've been known to let some of the easier weeds go to bloom to attract more good bugs.
I have some neem oil, some stuff for spider mites ( my biggest pest) and some BT. I sometimes use the BT on tomatoes and their relatives. I haven't even opened the other stuff. I get some aphids but a good hosing gets rid of most and then the good bugs come in and eat the rest.
Study IPM and you will learn how to keep the bad stuff out much more easily!

If you have slugs or some other crawling insect, consider Sluggo plus. Also, diamectous earth dusted on your plants can help with a whole lot of bad insects.
I always try to identify my problem bugs and rarely need anything stronger than water.
Sevin-it's terribly toxic to bees. Do you want to grow squash or cucumbers?
Sevin is also an anticholinergic, similar to nerve gas. In fact, the antidote is atropine, which soldiers would carry as an emergency injection during the Gulf Wars.
I saw a dog get toxic when my ex-husband covered him with sevin dust to kill a couple of fleas. It want pretty!

If you are TRULY witnessing people dusting their animals with Sevin, you should call animal control on them... just saying.

One thing that doesnt seem to get mentioned very much when discussing pesticide is Diatomaceous Earth! I LOVE the stuff! I pour some into the feed bin for my chicken feed to keep roaches and mealworms out, I also pour it into a pile in my chicken coop for them to take a dust bath in (and my birds dont have a single louse ), i dust my dogs with it to rid fleas and ticks and i use it to get rid of pests in my garden when i need it. I think it is the best and the safest "pesticide"! However, it does kill indescriminatly, which means it will kill beneficials also! So use it targetively (is that a word?) on pests!

Diatomaceous Earth is mined from long gone ancient seas or oceans. DE is fossilized microscopic animals. If you look at DE under a microscope you will see what looks like crystalized snowflakes or broken glass. And it is super absorbent. So when the powder comes in contact with an insect, it sticks to the waxy layer of the it's exoskeleton and as the bug moves all the little "snowflakes " cut into the exoskeleton and absorbs It's body fluids. Thusly killing it by dehydration. It kills some pests really fast but some may take a while. But using DE will keep your garden pest free(well, mostly) and still maintain Organic status!

Peace!

offgridbound: the reason you don't see DE mentioned a lot is that it's considered to be broad spectrum. Though it's not toxic to humans, pets, and animals, it is toxic to any ANY insect that walks across it. So, while it may kill your target pests, it also kills the beneficials. Which may lead to more problems than it's worth.

It goes against one of the cardinal rules of pest control... Identify pest first, then treat with the least impacting, most target specific, form of control.

It's also pretty worthless when it gets wet.

It does have it's time and places though.

Kevin

Excellent points Kevin!

Dave

I am not a market gardener who is trying to make a living from what he grows, but I do grow vegetables for our family and of course, I want to produce as much as I can. And no one enjoys working hard on their garden only to see some of it destroyed by pests of any kind.

I was lucky enough, that my first gardening experience was meeting a new friend who had an organic vegetable garden. His enthusiasm and success was inspiring, and I started my own garden the next spring. That was back in the 1980s and I'm still gardening organically. I have not had a pest problem that ever tempted me once to buy an insecticide or herbicide.

Yes, I sometimes get a minor amount of slugs, oriental beetles and plenty of aphids and two years in a row, I had amazing numbers of ear wigs, but if I leave the aphids alone, the ladybugs are right behind them and make quick work of them. The ear wigs required a trip after dark with a flashlight to knock them into a cup of soapy water for about a week. Last year, we had cabbage bugs in the broccoli/cabbage and the next thing I noticed were wasps patrolling that bed and no more damage on the brassicas.

I have winter moths in my trees which I do nothing about. I have Red Lily Beetles that I hand pick. If I get too busy with other chores, the RLLB can get away from me and the foliage on my lilies can become a mess. But I can live with that. If it bothers me that much this year, than next year, I am sure I will pay more attention to picking them off. And if I get sick of picking them off, I'd rather dig them all up and get rid of them, than disturb the well earned equilibrium of my garden, by using a pesticide/herbicide.

This year, I'm concentrating on increasing the diversity of plant material that attracts beneficials and I want to provide pollinator homes and saucers of mud for butterflies. There's always something new to learn or to try that benefits an organic garden, and the more that benefits it, the easier it is for me.

Thank you Dave! I learned from the best.

:)

Kevin

My vegetable garden boxes are on a slight hill above our fenced yard. I am thinking of using some benign methods, like boiling water, coffee grounds, hose pressure, etc. to get the ants out of, and away from, my garden. Then, once they have been chased far enough away, hopefully to the downhill side, I can go after them with regular ant killer. Any thoughts?

Ants aren't hurting your garden. What exactly is your problem?

No, the fire ants are not hurting the garden. But their bite is painful, and the itching, etc. lasts for days. I need to work in my garden without going to the emergency room. Have you ever dealt with fire ants? Disturbing these ants is akin to disturbing a bee hive! I currently have several bites on my hands and feet already. This is serious.

OK, you didn't say FIRE ants. I'm in Texas, and I deal with them routinely. If I were you, I wouldn't use Sevin (which is what this very old thread is about), but just get some regular fire ant bait. I use Amdro and it works a treat. Sevin is a contact insecticide, so it has to touch the ants to kill them. You kill the ones on the surface, but while you do, they're busy multiplying in their protected underground nest. They will bring the bait back to the nest and it will kill them all.

Contact insecticides are a no-no for fire ants. You'll end up using a huge amount to make a dent in their population.

Sorry, I realized afterwards that I didn't say fire ants. I was thinking I need to get the ants away from the garden so the vegetables won't absorb any poison. Is Amdro OK for a veggie garden?

Actually, thank you for bringing that up. Amdro Fire Ant Bait is not very toxic, but it is actually not approved for use in a vegetable garden. The recommended procedure is to sprinkle it around the periphery of the garden. The ants will get it.

Not completely clear why hydromethylnon is not approved for vegetable garden use. It's pretty benign stuff, and it degrades in a natural environment in a week or so, especially in sunlight. Plants do not take it up. It IS highly toxic to fish, so keep it away from them, though its lifetime in water is just hours.

Thanks for the info Dan. My thought was that if the ants are carrying the Amdro bait back to the garden/hill, it might be a problem. That is why I was going to try to get the ants to move out of the garden by harassing the hills with other methods (water pressure, knocking it down, etc.), then killing them when the new hills are outside the garden area. There aren't any fish anywhere close. Thanks again.

why not a nemm oil solution mixed with a few spoons of dish soap ?

Does that work on fire ants? I have some that I have used on fruit trees, etc..

Neem is another contact insecticide. The ant doesn't touch it, and it won't die. The zillions of ants in the hive won't touch it. It may eliminate some mounds, if it happens to touch a queen, but it will leave plenty of other mounds. It's just not that effective on ants. This is well understood.

It takes SO LITTLE of a non-organic fire ant killer to do the job, one shouldn't be worried about it.

Agree with Dan. One has to understand the differences between contact pesticides and those that need to be ingested to be effective. Neem has its role in pest control but it also has its limitations. Same goes for soap mixtures - effective in only certain situations.

Dave

correia, Amdro shouldn't be used in the veggie garden, even in small amounts. But it is so highly attractive to ants that you can scatter some on the outside of your garden and the scouts will find it.

Amdro is also not registered for use in orchards, unless the trees are non bearing. It is not labeled for use in pastureland, unless the grazing animals are not to be used for human consumption.

The active ingredient has been proven to cause a variety of cancers and other side effects in test animals under laboratory conditions and that little tidbit alone should tell us to keep the stuff away from our edibles.

The labels are there for a reason. It sounds like the active ingredient is taken up by plant roots and can effect whatever feeds on it.

We love Amdro for fireants because it's so effective. You can torture the nest with boiling water, soaps, etc., and it will do absolutely nothing to kill the queens of the colonies. Chemical laced baits do the job. Hydramethylnon affects the energy storing systems of all forms of life. In this application, ants and other insects like roaches, silverfish, etc., feed on the bait...it must be ingested to be effective...and over a few hours or days, the entire colony is killed.

Ants macerate and regurgitate their food to the other essential members of the massive colony, including the larvae and the queen. Once the queen is gone, the colony dies.

There are baits which are recommended for use in veggie gardens. Spinosad is a popular active ingredient.

You have to know your enemy before selecting the most appropriate product. Then learn about the possible methods.

This is why my plan is to "annoy" the ants out of the garden to the outskirts, as far as possible. Then I plan to use the ant killer I use on the lawn, far enough from the garden so that it is not absorbed by the veggie plants. The ants are very stubborn, but they are moving out gradually.

That's true that Amdro fire ant bait (Hydramethylnon) isn't listed for use in the garden. As I said, you don't use it IN a veggie garden. You use it around the periphery. This approach is specifically recommended by ag extension services. Also, it is not taken up by plants (that's well understood). Residues on plants that have been detected were from direct contact after spray application (which residential users don't do). As granular bait, it has very low volatility, so it's not like you're going to be breathing it in. It degrades quickly in the soil by sunlight and microbial activity. Lifetime exposure and ingestion in very large quantities has been associated with cancer. Don't eat a lot of the stuff. If you're really scared of it, wash your hands after you apply.

Spinosad works well, but is highly toxic to bees. Of course, if you use it as bait, it's unlikely the bees will pick it up except I believe that unlike Hydramethylnon, it is taken up by plants. FWIW, I don't think that large quantities of ingested spinosad have every been tested with regard to carcinogenicity. I wouldn't eat a lot of that stuff either.

That being said, fire ant baits are so effective, and require such a tiny amount to do the job, it really isn't worth a lot of concern about.

Don't "annoy" the ants. That will just encourage them to spread. You sprinkle it around the periphery of the garden, and they'll find it. Been there, done that.

Hello I was just wondering if I could use seven dust on my coffee plant something is eating my leafs

Is that your first thought? First, I would try to figure out what is eating it. Do you see bugs on the leaves, undersides? If you can capture or kill one, take a photo of it and post it. Is the coffee plant indoors? Is it potted? Lots of safer things to try first. If it's potted, wash off the leaves with a soapy paper towel and rinse it well. If it continues, mix up home made spray of 1 drop of dishwashing liquid, cayenne pepper and garlic and strain it into a spray bottle and spray and leave it on.

The answer to the "should I use" will always be "depends." The best and most effective way to treat a plant pest is to IDENTIFY what the pest is first. That way you can figure out the most effective way to treat that pest. In my experience, using a pesticide to treat the plant leaves that are being eaten is not going to cut it if you have gotten to the point that you are overrun with the pest. That's why the best method for growing healthy plants is to put them into a system that hits the potential problems on all fronts. One weapon in the pest battle is easily overcome depending on conditions, a series of them not so much. Not saying sometimes it isn't as easy as one pest, one solution. But most often not . . . it depends . . .

For example, Japanese beetles were decimating my roses and fruit trees. I could drench them with Sevin and they'd be back the next day for more. I began a biological control program to get at the breeding grounds in my large yard that was harboring the beetle larvae, and my beetle numbers after three years are down considerably. Now it is much easier to nip a beetle infestation in the bud because numbers are so much lower. I was able to get at the root cause of the infestation and tamp my numbers down to a more manageable level.

Pink Mountain - What kind of biological controls?

I've gardened organically for 35+ years and I would consider that a "system". [g] I have seen wonderful things. I've often just ignored things only to see they take care of themselves. Aphids show up and if I wait - then ladybugs show up to feed on them and the next thing you know they are gone. We had too many rabbits this spring... a real population explosion in our neighborhood - next thing you know, there was not a rabbit in sight...the coyotes caught on and that was a a natural control.