Why are you crediting the difference to Miracle Grow rather than to the difference in her location? At least I assume that is what you mean by the title of your post. 200 miles SW can make a BIG difference.

And of course there is the differences in soil (native fertility and tilth), different sun exposure, probably different planting times, etc.

While the MG can make a difference it also may not be a good difference. "Mammoth radishes, turnips and beets" aren't desirable for most of us.

Used carefully and in proper amounts MG can be fine in the garden. Used in excess (as the manufacturer recommends) it can be very detrimental to the soil because of all the salt build-up that happens.

Dave

Unfortunately, the OP has the earmarks of SPAM (posted on first day of membership, touting a product). Although there are useful things to be said on this topic, I suggest we ignore this one.

Jim

I doubt it's spam...she posted a question to the organic forum looking for help on control with pests and posted a followup...the spam-meter didn't ring on that one, f'sure.

Like stated, especially for root crops, what's going on above the ground isn't always a good indication for what's going on below the ground. If too much growth is going to the top growth and not enough on the actual root, you could have something lush and wonderful on top while a disappointment is waiting for you on harvest.

I see a lot of people who are proud of their extremely huge/lush tomatoes/peppers/etc. and all the green it's putting out because of high N, but a lack of flowers and fruit set tells another story about how the plant is doing from it's intended purpose...making edibles.

Used carefully and in proper amounts MG can be fine in the garden. Used in excess (as the manufacturer recommends) it can be very detrimental to the soil because of all the salt build-up that happens.

Dave

I'm curious, Dave. MG is a foliage feeder, right? If you spray it on the leaves etc, how does that build up salt in the soil?
I only use MG on my flowers etc., but was wondering? Nancy

There is a MIRACLE in the name and perhaps some believe that. I do not. Water soluble fertilizers are fast acting and fast leaching out. I use them too but in a very diluted form certain times.

Anyway, you want to know what is in MG, read the analysis on the package.

Dave. MG is a foliage feeder, right?

That all depends on the form you buy - the box concentrate or the hose end sprayer type. Far more use it as a root drench feed than for foliar feeding. Whether that is due to the cost difference or because foliar feeding itself is highly controversial I don't know.

But even with foliage feeding, salts and all, it runs right off the leaf and drips down onto the soil.

Dave

It's crack for plants.

Definitely not a spammer just curious. Dave she planted EXACTLY the same time I did, temperature is roughly 5 degrees warmer with annual rainfall the same as mine. She has used solely MG in her raised bed, nothing else. Yes there is a lot of foliage growth, but definitely proportional root vegetables as well. The turnips and radishes were not fibrous but unusually sweet--I do like a bit of a kick with those. Her peas crisp and sweet. I have never used MG. In fact, I would check the back of the bag but I live quite far from civilization and thought someone would have some information on it.

Also, I didn't intentionally mean to promote Miracle-Gro--I don't even use the stuff.

It's what I use as a major fertilizer in my raised beds.

I compost, but I mostly use the compost for structure and aggregate properties in my heavy clay soils more-so than the other benefits it provides.

I also make a compost/manure/kelp tea once a year, and though it's a decent fertilizer, I mostly use it to provide minor micronutrients as well as "recharging" the microbes in the soil...which helps break down some of the compost and release some of the "good" that's in it besides the aggregate help I mainly apply it for.

The tea isn't necessary (at least every year), but it has become a yearly "the soil has warmed up" ritual for me a 1-2 weeks before my seedlings go in the ground. The clay content and compost help most of it's benefits (from the microbes to the nutrients) stick around.

I generally only fertilize twice a season for summer crops with the MG. I give my plants a shot after the seedlings have been in the ground for 3 weeks or so and the root system has stabilized well (early May) and I follow it up with another dose during the last part of the hell of our NC summers a few weeks before it's time for the main fall flush to get going (early/mid-August depending on how much heavy rain we've been experiencing). If we've been having a lot of extremely heavy summer rain I usually give them a 1/2-strength dose in late-June or early/mid-July...we occasionally get a stray tail of a hurricane passing through dumping insanely leeching quantities of rain every few years. I basically let my plants "tell" me what they need when I choose to supplement in between my 2 main doses.

For the most part, my soil is rather fertile and holds onto applications well, so I don't need to do the every 3-6 week fertilizing schemes some people do for their intensive summer gardens.

I lab soil test every 3 years and my P/K plus other nutrient levels haven't spiked into over-use territory...I do keep an eye on it, though.

I failed to mention that she was using bags of MG garden soil.
Not sure of the N/P/K ratios but would a FE foliage spray be a better substitute to avoid salt build-up?

Dave. MG is a foliage feeder, right?

That all depends on the form you buy - the box concentrate or the hose end sprayer type. Far more use it as a root drench feed than for foliar feeding. Whether that is due to the cost difference or because foliar feeding itself is highly controversial I don't know.

But even with foliage feeding, salts and all, it runs right off the leaf and drips down onto the soil.

Dave

Thanks for the follow up, Dave.

Nitrogen gets an unnecessarily bad rap because many gardeners overapply it. Nevertheless, it is still the most important plant macronutrient (besides carbon, oxygen and hydrogen) - even for fruiting crops. Your mom's veggies may be bigger because your soil may be lacking in nutrients.

That being said, organic ferts are better in the long term for stablilizing nutrient fluctuations. Over time, if no organic matter is added, soil organic matter content will slowly decrease and high N fertilizers will accelerate it.

5 degrees could be almost a zone difference, or 2 weeks difference in a growing season. That being said, I use plenty of Miracle Gro liquid in my containers. I also use the shake and feed, it's good stuff. The MG name gets a bit of a bad rap on occasion, but let's face it, it's just fertilizer like any other chemical fertilizer. There's nothing special in it. It has a list of ingredients on the back just like most other fertilizers. The plants don't care where they get the NPK, etc. from.

Yes, they do care. Miracle Gro and other chemical fertilizers may feed the plant, but they do nothing for the soil. Feed the soil and you will have healthier plants. Miracle Gro now makes an organic fertilizer and garden and potting soil. It works very well.

Are organics better for soil? Yes I believe that they are. I was talking mainly about container medium in my post and organics are of very little use in containers. Even so, the plant, even if it could talk, whether growing in a container or in the ground, couldn't tell you where it's last meal came from.

A much more knowledgeable person than me writes, "Whether the fertilizer is furnished in chemical or organic form matters not a whit to the plant. Ions are ions, but there is one major consideration. Chemical fertilizers are available for immediate uptake while organic fertilizers must be acted on by passing through the gut of micro-organisms to break them down into usable elemental form. Since microorganism populations are affected by cultural conditions like moisture/air levels in the soil, soil pH, fertility levels, temperature, etc., they tend to follow a boom/bust cycle that has an impact on the reliability and timing of delivery of nutrients supplied in organic form, in container culture. Nutrients locked in hydrocarbon chains cannot be relied upon to be available when the plant needs them. This is a particular issue with the immobile nutrients that must be present in the nutrient stream at all times for the plant to grow normally."

So yes, I do use some organics in my in-ground garden, but none in my containers.

My apologies to mindfulmama, who apparently is not a spammer as I had suspected.

"I didn't intentionally mean to promote Miracle-Gro--I don't even use the stuff."

I DO use the stuff. My main use of it is to give a quick boost to crops which, by visual inspection, are suffering a nutrients deficiency. Often this is pale, yellowish or chlorotic leaves resulting from a nitrogen deficiency in my sandy soil. Miracle Gro solves the problem in a very few days.

Jim

I only use organic fertilizers, even in containers. I've had some plants in containers for years and they do just fine on organics. I guess if you have annuals, chemical fertilizers may be ok.

But just because the end result of what goes in the plant is the same, does not mean that the chemical fertilizers are just as good for the plants. Plants can only uptake nutrients if they have a good root system, and organic material (not just fertilizers) enhance the root system. Also, chemicals leave behind salts, which can cause bad soil conditions going forward.

Also, since this is the vegetable forum:

Nutrition and Flavor:

Chemical fertilizers produce fruits and vegetables with lower nutritional value and less flavor.

Citrus grown with large amounts of soluble nitrogen has lower vitamin C than those grown with organic fertilizers. Corn grown with the soluble nitrogen of chemical fertilizers contain less protein.

The lack of trace elements in chemical fertilizers not only means an increase incidence of plant diseases, but it also means there is less nutrition from the fruits and vegetables for the consumer. Trace minerals are an important component of healthy nutrition.

Compounding the problem of not providing trace elements, chemical fertilizers also prevent the plant from absorbing them from the soil. This lack of absorption caused by chemical fertilizers can be explained by the following chemistry lesson:

Minerals are transferred via “colloidal humus particles” found in healthy soil. These particles are negatively charged and attract positively charged elements, such as potassium (K), sodium, calcium, magnesium, manganese, aluminum, baron, iron, copper and other metals.

Large doses of sodium nitrate dumped into the soil will, over time, radically change these humus particles. The result is trace elements are crowded out because the humus particles become filled up with the excess sodium.

In essence, even though they may be present in the soil, these other essential minerals are unavailable to the plant.

As for flavor, most everyone will agree there’s no comparison between the taste of fruits and vegetables grown organically and those grown chemically.

This improved flavor is probably due to the superior nutritional content, including trace minerals, of organically grown plants.

Here is a link that might be useful: Chemical vs Organic Fertilizers

There's a lot of things wrong with that copy/paste from a fertilizer company that was just posted...and some things right.

For the most part a plant does not know the difference between an organic or chemical fertilizer. The pathways for nutrient exchange do not care about the compounds that created the nutrient. NO3 is NO3...NH4 is NH4...and by the time it gets to the plant and it's uptake filtering...it's just N+.

It is true that the compounds that create the nutrients do effect the soil, though. Excessive sodium based nutrients will de-aggregate soil, but you'd need a lot of additions without much water moving it out of the soil...this isn't an issue for many people's soil, but it is a concern (especially when used a lot, and very especially when used a lot in arid areas) to people with saline or sodic soil.

Soil additions must be chosen and used correctly or it will negatively effect how nutrients move through the soil. If you dump a bunch of uncomposted organic matter in your soil, the microorganisms will tie up N and, depending on the material, release undesired tanins and phenols in the soil effecting both the soil chemistry and the nutrient availability. If you dump a bunch of chemical ammonium sulfate (21-0-0) in your soil and water it in, the N in it is available so quickly you can saturate your soil with N and at the same time spiking your pH low until the soil buffers itself...which greatly effects nutrient availability via pH and N saturation. Anything you add to the soil will effect how it "works" but there are ways to do it right without a detrimental effect on balance while adding what you need. Proper use of composted (or top-applied uncomposted) organic matter and proper use of ammonium sulfate lead to no bad issues if it's what your soil needs. Use any addition wisely...and don't ever use ammonium sulfate on acid soils unless you want to further lower your pH...I just used this as an example.

"Minerals are transferred via “colloidal humus particles” found in healthy soil."

Humus is only part of the equation...the mineral (non-humus/non-organic) part of the soil is as important (or more important, some would argue) since it doesn't degrade and actually holds exchangeable charges/nutrients for a much longer period of time than humus/organic fractions of the soil. Most people suggest you don't have more than 5-7% organic fraction in your soil to begin with. The mineral part of your soil, especially clay, holds a LOT of nutrient charge and practically acts as a battery keeping the nutrients available for exchange when chemical fertilizers are added or humus is being degraded by microorganisms.

"Compounding the problem of not providing trace elements, chemical fertilizers also prevent the plant from absorbing them from the soil."

...this is total b/s.

Also, the "flavor and nutrition" parts of the claims range from highly debatable to suspect...especially the flavor part of it. Vitamin C, Iron, Mg, and a few (mostly flavorless, but somewhat astringent on whole) anthocyanins compounds have been found in higher concentrations in organic grown food...aside from that, there's not a lot going on except marginal gains/losses compared to each other.

This post was edited by nc-crn on Sun, Jun 30, 13 at 13:20

Everyone gave me great information to digest--much appreciated.
Although I have been gardening for awhile, I still have much to learn. Up until recently I dug a hole and planted a seed. With luck a plant grew and later we enjoyed some fresh veggies. As my children have grown more independent I am excited to spend more time in the garden and learn the art and science of growing and maintaining a beautiful and healthy bounty .

My take on this:

Miracle gro is just a fertilizer that is high in nitrogen, which is good for growing leafy stuff, like your lawn. In the vegie garden, I have found that it's great for lettuce and spinach, since the aim with those is to grow greenery.

My guess with your mom is that she amended the soil with potting soil that contained time release fertilizer. Vegies grow great in great soil. Also, they're well fertilized with all that pre-mixed in fertilizer.

Folks around here often use the compost from the sewage plant. It grows incredible vegies. But, of course, it raises the cost of gardening.

Fruiting veggies need nitrogen too. Healthy plants produce the highest yields. A tomato plant given only P and K in an N-poor soil will curl up and die. The trick, of course, is not to give them TOO much N.