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kristimdb

Strange leaf issue on my pepper and tomato plants

kristimdb
10 years ago

I bought some heirloom tomatoes from a big online nursery and planted them in my backyard. I have never seen an heirloom tomato plant before, so I was not sure how the leaves were suppose to look. I have 3 heirloom roma tomatoes and 3 different varieties of bigger heirloom tomatoes. Their leaves were sort of long, skinny, and curly. Again I did not think anything of it until a few weeks later I bought 2 sweet bell peppers, 1 banana wax pepper, and 1 jalopino pepper. The peppers were doing great but then a few weeks in I noticed that my banana wax pepper plants new leaf growth looked strange. They were way smaller then the others, have squiggly veins, and the leaves themselves are very strange in shape and curl up. They also feel very rubbery. I did not really start to research this issue until I noticed that ALL of my pepper plants new growth leaves are starting to look the same. I then went and looked more closely to my tomato plant leaves and they too have very similar characteristics. Now I am afraid that my whole crop is going to die. Please help me figure out what this is and tell me how to stop it. My worst fear is that it might be some sort of mosaic disease and with my research findings it looks like you can not cure it. I really feel that my tomato plants are the culprits that brought this to my garden. The picture above is of my banana wax pepper leaves.

{{!gwi}}

Comments (56)

  • nc_crn
    10 years ago

    This sounds a lot like a phosphorus deficiency, but that's an uncommon deficiency in most soils.

    It also sounds a bit like thrips (like another poster noted).

    What kind of fertilization have you given them?

  • kristimdb
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    "Need to know the specific names of the varieties to determine if the leaf growth is normal or not. "Heirloom" tomatoes have the same kind of leaves as hybrids - regular, potato leaf, or rugose. There is no such thing as a "heirloom roma". Roma, the variety name is common hybrid, "roma" the shape (aka paste, plum) could be any one of 1000 different varieties, both hybrids and heirlooms."

    Here is the link to the tomatoes I bought. I bought them through Gurneys. One was a variety pack of 3 different types of heirlooms and the reason why I keep calling the roma's heirloom is because on the Gurneys website I bought them under the heirloom category.

    http://www.gurneys.com/heirloom-rainbow-blend-tomato-seeds/p/73592/

    http://www.gurneys.com/roma-vf-tomato-seeds/p/15062/

  • kristimdb
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    This is my bell pepper plant.

  • nc_crn
    10 years ago

    Ah pics uploaded while I was typing that.

    That is not a phosphorus deficiency.

    That looks a lot like leaf roll which is usually caused by excessively high temperatures. Are you in an arid area with winds and constant 90-100+F temperatures by chance?

    If the answer to the above is "yes" you might want to get them some shade cloth or at least keep their watering regular. Also, if this is the issue, they may not uncurl once corrected and you'll generally see improvements in newer growth.

    That said, it could also be thrips/aphids or a passed virus caused by them. Given that you've had so many plants effected so quickly, this may not be the case, though.

  • kristimdb
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Another tomato plant. I can not remember if this one is also a roma or one of the other types.

  • kristimdb
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    And again another one of the tomato plants.

  • nc_crn
    10 years ago

    Btw, if it is leaf roll your plants are reacting to both the weather and a lack of proper rooting. It's not a disease...it's the plant trying to protect itself because it doesn't have the proper nutrient uptake (caused by a lack of root development) to fully feed the plant to it's trying to reduce it's mass production. It generally does not lead to bad fruiting when the time comes to set fruit.

    This could be due to too little moisture, not enough potassium, or soil that's too hard/crusty to promote root growth.

  • kristimdb
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    For a background on my soil. A month before planting my garden I laid down a top coat of steer manure and Dr. Earths Tomatoes, veggies, and Herbs organic fertilizer. After a few weeks we turned over the soil and then did this again just before we planted out garden. Since having them planted, I have added Dr. Earths root starter in a liquid tea mix. I have been told by my neighbor, who is a gardener, that our soil needs a lot of amendments. That is why I added so much to my soil.

  • kristimdb
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    "That looks a lot like leaf roll which is usually caused by excessively high temperatures. Are you in an arid area with winds and constant 90-100+F temperatures by chance?"

    I do live in an area were during the summer time it is between 80-100+ but not much wind.

    "That said, it could also be thrips/aphids or a passed virus caused by them. Given that you've had so many plants effected so quickly, this may not be the case, though."

    How fast would it take a virus to spread? I would say that my tomato leaves started looking like this right after I planted them and then with in a month or a little more my banana pepper leaves were affected. And about 2 weeks ago I noticed the leaves on all of my other pepper plants doing it.

    "This could be due to too little moisture, not enough potassium, or soil that's too hard/crusty to promote root growth."

    I also have one other bell pepper plant that I planted before I even put in the tomatoes. I saw that the location was no good for it and the slugs almost killed it, so I bought new ones and then found a new location. The original pepper plant gets quite a bit of water, so watering with this bugger would not be an issue. BUT today I noticed the leaves on it too are doing the same as the other plants.

  • kristimdb
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Was that steer manure composted well? Did it smell when you planted or was it more like crumbly black stuff?
    That could very well be herbicide damage from the steer manure depending on where/what they were fed. If the weather issues "don't add up" to point to leaf roll, that could be what you're dealing with, especially if you're not noticing thrip infestations or extremely high aphid colonies.

    You have to be careful where you source your manure from depending on what they were fed...and it needs to be fully composted to keep herbicide damage to a minimum.

    ...if it is herbicide damage from "bad" or not fully composted manures it will correct itself over time, though...so it's not a panic thing (except for what's currently in the ground).


    The ground did not smell when I planted the garden. Also the very first pepper plant that I planted was in dirt that I did not add any amendments to at all. I do have to say that this pepper plant was the last one to start showing the strange signs. I do not see any aphid at all and I do not know what thrip is. I will have to look that up. So do you not think this is some sort of mosaic disease?

  • nc_crn
    10 years ago

    "How fast would it take a virus to spread? I would say that my tomato leaves started looking like this right after I planted them and then with in a month or a little more my banana pepper leaves were affected. And about 2 weeks ago I noticed the leaves on all of my other pepper plants doing it. "

    Unless there was an intense thrip/insect infestation it would be very unlikely so many plants would be so uniformly/quickly effected.

    What was your source for your manure? That's what I'm suspect of currently since it's unlikely leaf roll is what's causing it.

  • kristimdb
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    I got the manure from Ace Hardware.

  • kristimdb
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Also I would like to add that my pepper plants blossoms have been falling off with out producing anything. I know that pollination is not an issue. we have bees all over the place.

  • nc_crn
    10 years ago

    I'm familiar with their steer manures...bagged...and though it's sourced from different places they're not known to sell bad manure in the past and I've never heard of anyone using their steer manure getting herbicide contaminated soil.

    Hmm....

    That's a bit odd. They are showing signs of either leaf roll or herbicide damage, but it seems like you're not in danger of either based on what you've done, yourself.

    You don't have an aphid infestation and even though you don't know what thrips are you'd know if you had a lot of them on your plant.

    The only thing I can think of outside of this are mites (you wouldn't be able to see them with your eyes).

    If it is mites (not spider mites) you'd need a miteacide (such as neem oil if you want to stay organic). It's hard to self-diagnose this, though...it's one of those "look under a microscope and know what you're looking for" things to ID.

    Maybe someone else can help out here. I'm at the end of my sleuthing on this issue. Good luck.

  • kristimdb
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    I have looked up what herbicide damage to tomato and pepper plants looks like and it looks just like my plants. Do you know how to cure this? I know you said that the effected leaves will probably stay that way but how do I help new growth? Also why would my pepper plant that is 4 feet away from the amended soil be effected? Would that just be from wind blowing it over to it. Also why did it take my pepper plants so long after being planted to show this? They were in the dirt for about a month and a half before they started to show the signs, where as my tomatoes showed signs right away.

  • kristimdb
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Awww nooo :( I thought we figured it out with the herbicide damage. With looking at pictures I still feel that it might be herbicide damage. Maybe one of my neighbors went nuts spraying poisons every where, lol.

    If I use neem oil just to be safe, will it harm anything if it turns out not to be a mite?

  • nc_crn
    10 years ago

    The thing is, unless you're getting herbicide drift somewhere from a neighbor (like someone who sprays their lawn on a windy day or you live near a field) it may not be herbicide damage. Based on the things you've done/added it sounds like you're not doing it.

    Steer manure can be a bit sketchy, especially with food shortages forcing questionable feed for steers the past many years, but I've never heard of anyone getting contaminated steer manure from that bagged stuff Ace sells. They're generally good about sourcing.

    That's what leads me to believe it may be mites (such as broad mites or russet mites, not spider mites). Mite damage looks a lot like herbicide damage when it gets really bad and they can go plant-to-plant pretty easily.

    This post was edited by nc-crn on Mon, Jun 24, 13 at 3:37

  • nc_crn
    10 years ago

    "If I use neem oil just to be safe, will it harm anything if it turns out not to be a mite? "

    ...as long as you apply it correctly it's safe.

    You're not going to want to apply it just before or during the hottest/sun-filled part of the day. You pretty much want the plants to be shaded or mostly shaded until it is dry so most people apply it when the sun is going down toward the end of the day. The package/bottle should have further instructions.

    This post was edited by nc-crn on Mon, Jun 24, 13 at 3:38

  • kristimdb
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Thank you so much :)

  • woohooman San Diego CA zone 10a
    10 years ago

    nc-crn: wouldn't he/she have quite a bit of discoloration with a mite infestation?

    Don't mind me -- I'm trying to learn.

    Kevin

  • planatus
    10 years ago

    This looks like herbicide damage from clopyralid or amidicloprid, which persist in grass clippings or compost. The leaf curl often manifests just as plants get going. This is what the shut down of Green Mountain composting facilities was all about this spring, and it's been a problem in WA , UT and NC for almost ten years. Google killer compost, and call your local extension agent. So sad that these chemicals have been allowed into our world.

  • digdirt2
    10 years ago

    Agree with planatus - Classic herbicide damage pics. Lots of them on the Tomato forum right now to compare with if you wish and tons of them available on the web.

    Source can be either drift from spraying or brought in in composted amendments but the drift is 10x more common. If drift caused it then the plants will often recover in time regardless of the type of herbicide. If it is from soil added ingredients then their recovery is far less likely. Either way it has nothing to do with the tomato plants being brought into the garden or the fact they are supposedly 'heirlooms'.

    Dave

  • jean001a
    10 years ago

    Please read the link I posted about herbicide contaminated organic matter. (Likely from your top coat of steer manure.)

    herbicide contaminated OM
    http://puyallup.wsu.edu/soilmgmt/Clopyralid.html

    Then read the info re how to speed the breakdown in your soil, also what will grow this season.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Clopyralid in Compost

  • jean001a
    10 years ago

    Herbicide-contaminated organic matter (manures, straw, compost) has occurred widely during the past 5 or so years in from various sources:
    - "free" manures/straw/bedding from farmers
    - commercially packaged products

  • kristimdb
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    One more thing I would like to add. I talked to my neighbor and asked her if she had any plants doing the same thing. She said one is. I told her I thought it was herbicide damage and she said our houses are located on what use to be an orchard. But this house was built in the 70s. The chemicals from the orchard would not last that long in the ground right? She seems to think that it is caused by the chemicals from the orchard but I just think that they would have broken down by now.

  • digdirt2
    10 years ago

    The chemicals from the orchard would not last that long in the ground right?

    No, not unless they were used at such high levels that the ground was saturated with them. The odds of that are slim to none, about the same as winning the lottery. besides, what does she think they use in orchards anyway? Toxic waste chems?

    Dave

  • florauk
    10 years ago

    We have had this problem over here in the last few years but most home gardeners are now alert to it. The herbicide used in fields passes through animals unchanged and reappears in the manure. Tomatoes are very susceptible.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Weedkiller in Manure

  • nc_crn
    10 years ago

    "nc-crn: wouldn't he/she have quite a bit of discoloration with a mite infestation?"

    Yes, the leaves would have a bit of grey-green spotting along with the green with russet or broad mites before they "dry up" and die off.

    Mite (not spider mites) damage looks a lot like herbicide damage when plants get heavily infested (right down the rolling curl). Unfortunately, they're extremely hard to impossible to see with the naked eye. You'd have to take some new growth or in-the-process-of-decline growth and stick it under a microscope to see them.

    About the compost-in-a-bag stuff from Ace, the steer manure...while it is possible that it is contaminated, they have a great reputation about selling fulling composted, uncontaminated manure. This is what leads me to believe it's not the steer compost. It's possible, but unlikely.

    I'd currently put my bets on either herbicide drift or mites.

  • 2ajsmama
    10 years ago

    Did the tomato plants look like that when you got them? The peppers don't look as bad (may recover), but you said you didn't know what heirloom tomatoes were supposed to look like so I'm just wondering...Not that they introduced anything to the garden but I'm surprised Gurney's would have shipped anything that looked like that.

    Of coruse, that doesn't explain your neighbor's plant. BTW, they used some pretty nasty stuff in orchards decades ago - like lead arsenate but they stopped using that around 1950. I don't know how long that persists, but that doesn't cause the leaves to curl up that way, that I know of.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Lead arsenate in soil

  • kristimdb
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    When I got the tomato plants from Gurneys they were about 5-6 inches tall and they only had about 2-3 true leaf sets on it. The leafs at that time looked fine. As soon as I planted them and they started to grow the new growth looked like what was pictured. I truly thought when I saw it that heirloom tomatoes may have strange curly leaves. I guess that was a not so smart move on me.

    I contacted Ace to see if they have had any complaints about their manure. The guy said "no and it is impossible to get herbicide damage from manure". LOL I said we'll that is not what it says online. I explained how it is possible and then he said he would research it.

    Also I had wood chips around the plants to keep soil from splashing up on the leaves. I just took that off from around the plants. I just saw online that wood chips are not good to use as multch around the plants. I am new to gardening. I guess you learn from your mistakes. Could this have caused the herbicide damage?

    Also everyone talks about herbicide drift. I live in town and just can't see it being possible. I can ask my neighbors if they sprayed and herbicides just to check though. I also lean against this because my tomato plants started doing this as soon as they were planted and then a few weeks later I planted my peppers. They started to show the signs weeks after being planted. If it was herbicide drift how would the chemicals been around for a month?

  • jean001a
    10 years ago

    Lead arsenate won't cause distortion.
    Clopyralid and its relatives will.

  • digdirt2
    10 years ago

    Easy. And the most common cause by far. One of your neighbors has a lawn service that comes monthly or so. And it doesn't even have to be a next-door neighbor. It can be carried on the dominant wind direction for blocks. Other possibility is the city or county has been spraying roadside weeds.

    Seriously, you aren't alone with this problem. There has been probably 20 some cases reported this year over on the Tomato forum here and in all the posts where the OP got back to us it was the hubby trying to be helpful in one and the rest were a neighbor that sprayed or had a lawn service. It is really quite a common thing, especially in town rather than in the country, since folks just don't understand how susceptible to herbicides tomato and pepper plants are.

    One poster even got the lawn service to pay for replacing his plants.

    Dave

  • kristimdb
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    What can I do about it? I read something about activated charcoal.

  • nc_crn
    10 years ago

    If it's drift it's not in your soil in any concentration that's going to be around long...it's hitting your plants airborne.

  • planatus
    10 years ago

    Right now I would plant some bush bean seeds in the affected soil. If the seedlings exhibit leaf curl and fail to thrive, you will know your soil is contaminated and the problem is not due to herbicide drift.

    The squash/cucumber family is generally not sensitive, ditto for corn. Plant more squash. You have my deepest sympathies. For a newbie, you plants looked great.

  • digdirt2
    10 years ago

    What can I do about it?

    As indicated in earlier posts, if it is drift the plants will usually out grow it with timeunless there are repeated exposures. You will usually lose the damaged foliage (some trim it off) but it will be replaced with normal new growth.

    Focus on trying to identify the source to prevent it happening again. If you can ID the source and they will contact you before spraying them you can cover the plants with plastic for several hours that day to protect them.

    You can also get a professional soil test done by your local county ag extension office for approx. $12-15 if you think one is needed.

    Dave

  • 2ajsmama
    10 years ago

    Peppers will do fine in large pots, you can always repot those if soil is the issue but if it's drift from neighbor they'd have the same problem unless you cover them or take them inside when you know they're spraying.

    I have been lucky so far, but sure I'm going to get hit one of these days when one of the neighbors starts spraying, there are quite a few houses in the subdivision my 700-ft long driveway comes off of and all my crops are within 1/2 mile of the closest neighbor.

  • catherinet
    10 years ago

    Planatus's suggestion about growing some bush bean seeds to see how they do is a great suggestion for seeing if its a general soil contamination.
    I'm really sorry this has happened to you.
    If it is drift from a lawn service........makes you wonder what we, ourselves, are exposed to also.
    Would a soil test include the presence of certain chemicals?

  • digdirt2
    10 years ago

    Would a soil test include the presence of certain chemicals?

    Yes, assuming you would tell them what your concerns are - old orchard chemicals, herbicides residues, etc. But no, if you don't provide them with full info up front then a routine test wouldn't look for chemical residues.

    Dave

  • Mark
    10 years ago

    It sounds like you all have it figured out and all the advice is excellent as far as I can tell.
    I just couldn't help but agree that it absolutely looks like clopyralid or amiopyralid damage. I had a bad bout with it 3-4 years ago when all my homemade potting soil got contaminated by well composted alpaca manure. It took over a month to figure it out and I lost a bundle of valuable crops in the process.

    Clopyralid based herbicides have been banned in Oregon except for use on golf courses but then Dow chemical just comes out with Milestone which is amiopyralid instead. It's the same exact problem just with another chemical.

    To the OP, i'm afraid there really isn't anything you can do for the plants.
    If the cause is the manure, at least you're not contaminated forever. In the soil the chemicals do break down in a few months. But if left above ground the herbicide can last for years and damage sensitive plants (mostly tomato, potato, legumes) at tiny amounts (parts per million).

    Oh, I looked into a soil test for herbicide and it was extremely expensive. It's not an average soil test. Seeding some beans or peas is an excellent idea to determine if there's residue.

    -Mark

    This post was edited by madroneb on Tue, Jun 25, 13 at 23:20

  • jean001a
    10 years ago

    The 2nd troublesome active ingredient mentioned above is spelled aminopyralid. (Sorry, I used to be a proof reader.)

  • Mark
    10 years ago

    Good catch. That's what I meant, but I missed it twice, hmmmm.
    Me flunk english? Thats unpossible.

  • cindy_ga
    10 years ago

    I'll add that these photos look like the problem I had with 18 yards of soil I bought several years ago - Grazon contaminated soil. (It was amended with cow manure from a dairy farm.) It's been three years now and I only occasionally see a plant show the twisting and deformed leaves. Apparently the toxins do leach away and breakdown in the rain and sunshine - but I know that's little comfort when you're dealing with the problem.

    Wishing you the best.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Grazon contaminated soil in GA (end of thread)

  • jean001a
    10 years ago

    That's because Grazon ai is picloram, another relative of clopyralid.

  • smithtrav
    9 years ago

    So, how did it turn out for you last year, I am having that problem this year. Did you find the source

  • orneryx3
    7 years ago

    Did anyone ever figure out the cause of this? I'm having the same problem - initially thought it was herbicide damage... But it isn't improving, is now showing in previously 'healthy' plants.

    (Some plants were started in the greenhouse... An aphid infestation in Feb. Was treated with Bayer systemic insecticide - but not all my currently 'sick' plants went through that)

    Tomatoes, peppers, okra, and eggplant all have misshapen leathery leaves with NO DISCOLORATION (no patterning on leaves, no yellowing or wilting) and are barely growing. A 15 year old grape vine about 50 ft away also has some distorted leaf issues and fruit drop too.

    Lettuce, carrots, beets, beans, peas, melons, cucumbers, green zucchini, potatoes, and a dozen types of herb plants in same plot (some within a couple feet of infected plants) are fine. Golden zucchini plants have just developed a few yellow leaves... But seem otherwise healthy.


    I'm stumped and devastated. Just wish I could figure out WHAT is causing it.

  • Kat Taylor
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I know this post is a bit old, but here's my 2 cents worth - I've had the same issue with my tomatoes and peppers in a soil that was previously 'worked over' by chickens, then manured and mulched with chipped red gum (I live in Australia). It occurred to me that I hadn't tested the pH of the soil - you may add all kinds of amendments to your soil, but if the pH is outside of cca 6.0-7.0 (preferred range for most veggies), the nutrients are 'locked up' in the soil and the plants are unable to extract and utilise them. I've since measured my soil pH near the worst affected plant and found that it was around 4.5 - way too acidic! It would suit blueberries, azaleas and other acid lovers, but not veggies. The cure, although a slow one for future veggies, is to balance the soil pH by adding dolomite or garden lime. The other cure is to add LOTS of composted organic matter - preferably your own compost, so that you know that it hasn't got any nasties in it.

  • I am ME
    6 years ago

    I have dealt with this before and am dealing with it now. GUESS away but I will tell you this. Whatever this is or causes it was not mentioned here. I am a small gardener and use no herbicides. I do however use my grass clippings mulched directly into my clay garden soil along with regular compost and a very light 10-10-10 fertilizer. I first noticed this particular odd growth last year and nothing I did seemed to fix the problem. Today i will remove the plant from my garden and plant in a pot with quality potting soil.. ewwww... I will take photos and post in the future. WE CAN FIX THIS

  • theforgottenone1013 (SE MI zone 5b/6a)
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    I am Me- If your grass had a weed and feed type product applied to them and you use those clippings as mulch then that would be the source of your problems. Not sure if that is a possibility.

    As was stated a few times above, it doesn't have to be you that applied herbicides for your plants to show signs of damage from herbicide drift. Could have been one of your neighbors spraying or a lawn care company spraying when it was windy that caused the damage.

    "Regular compost" could also have herbicides in it depending on where you got it and what ingredients were used to make it.

    This is if it is indeed herbicide damage that is affecting your plants. Only a pic will tell.

    Rodney

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