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| I bought some heirloom tomatoes from a big online nursery and planted them in my backyard. I have never seen an heirloom tomato plant before, so I was not sure how the leaves were suppose to look. I have 3 heirloom roma tomatoes and 3 different varieties of bigger heirloom tomatoes. Their leaves were sort of long, skinny, and curly. Again I did not think anything of it until a few weeks later I bought 2 sweet bell peppers, 1 banana wax pepper, and 1 jalopino pepper. The peppers were doing great but then a few weeks in I noticed that my banana wax pepper plants new leaf growth looked strange. They were way smaller then the others, have squiggly veins, and the leaves themselves are very strange in shape and curl up. They also feel very rubbery. I did not really start to research this issue until I noticed that ALL of my pepper plants new growth leaves are starting to look the same. I then went and looked more closely to my tomato plant leaves and they too have very similar characteristics. Now I am afraid that my whole crop is going to die. Please help me figure out what this is and tell me how to stop it. My worst fear is that it might be some sort of mosaic disease and with my research findings it looks like you can not cure it. I really feel that my tomato plants are the culprits that brought this to my garden. The picture above is of my banana wax pepper leaves. |
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| your pic didn't post. Kevin |
This post was edited by woohooman on Sun, Jun 23, 13 at 17:50
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| The photo isn't posted, but I wonder if it could be an infestation of thrips?... They affect many plants, including Solonaceae (tomatoes, peppers, eggplant, potatoes). They can also carry viruses. They distort the growth of new leaves, as well as flowers and fruits--if you have ever had 'C-shaped' cucumbers, that is the work of thrips! They are sap-suckers, feeding on the top of the leaf, as opposed to the underside, like aphids. Personally, I prefer methods of cultural control: I would remove them from the plants with a steam of water, and encourage plant health through appropriate weeding, watering, and organic fertilization--as vigorous plants are usually able to withstand such infestations. Tomato plants don't like wet leaves, so other than to remove the pests, ensure that watering is done only at the soil level, and does not splash up onto the plants. Anything you can do to encourage Lacewings-- a beneficial predator-- is always a good thing. You may be able to purchase lacewing larvae. Application of an insecticidal soap, such as Safers, may be effective. If it is extreme, and nothing else works, Pyrethrum may be a solution--NOT Pyhrethrin. I am wary even of 'natural' insecticides like Pyrethrum, because they can kill non-target species, like bees. For that reason, it should be applied and dusk when bees are not active. At any rate, it likely has nothing to do with the fact that the plants are heirloom cultivars. If it is thrips, they may have come with the plants, from the nursery, or they may naturally be in your garden. |
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| There is any number of things it could be, including normal growth for the variety. Without seeing the issue it is impossible to help except in very broad generalizations. So several photos would be of great help. Given what you describe, exposure to herbicide/weed killer drift is one possibility that comes to mind. It is quite common this time of year - far more likely than any disease - can drift, for up to 1/2 mile, and easily affects both tomato and pepper plants but they usually recover. bought some heirloom tomatoes from a big online nursery and planted them in my backyard. I have never seen an heirloom tomato plant before, so I was not sure how the leaves were suppose to look. I have 3 heirloom roma tomatoes and 3 different varieties of bigger heirloom tomatoes. Their leaves were sort of long, skinny, and curly. I really feel that my tomato plants are the culprits that brought this to my garden. Need to know the specific names of the varieties to determine if the leaf growth is normal or not. "Heirloom" tomatoes have the same kind of leaves as hybrids - regular, potato leaf, or rugose. There is no such thing as a "heirloom roma". Roma, the variety name is common hybrid, "roma" the shape (aka paste, plum) could be any one of 1000 different varieties, both hybrids and heirlooms. Dave |
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| Please post your pictures. Don't know for certain, but perhaps your problem is herbicide-contaminated organic matter. Review the info & images at WSU: http://puyallup.wsu.edu/soilmgmt/Clopyralid.html If that info sounds correct, do the bio-assay to verify or not. |
Here is a link that might be useful: clopyralid contaminated organic matter
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| I will try posting my picture again. This is the leaves on my banana wax pepper. |
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| Here is the leaves on my heirloom roma tomato. |
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| This sounds a lot like a phosphorus deficiency, but that's an uncommon deficiency in most soils. It also sounds a bit like thrips (like another poster noted). What kind of fertilization have you given them? |
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| "Need to know the specific names of the varieties to determine if the leaf growth is normal or not. "Heirloom" tomatoes have the same kind of leaves as hybrids - regular, potato leaf, or rugose. There is no such thing as a "heirloom roma". Roma, the variety name is common hybrid, "roma" the shape (aka paste, plum) could be any one of 1000 different varieties, both hybrids and heirlooms." Here is the link to the tomatoes I bought. I bought them through Gurneys. One was a variety pack of 3 different types of heirlooms and the reason why I keep calling the roma's heirloom is because on the Gurneys website I bought them under the heirloom category. http://www.gurneys.com/heirloom-rainbow-blend-tomato-seeds/p/73592/ http://www.gurneys.com/roma-vf-tomato-seeds/p/15062/ |
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| This is my bell pepper plant. |
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| Ah pics uploaded while I was typing that. That is not a phosphorus deficiency. That looks a lot like leaf roll which is usually caused by excessively high temperatures. Are you in an arid area with winds and constant 90-100+F temperatures by chance? If the answer to the above is "yes" you might want to get them some shade cloth or at least keep their watering regular. Also, if this is the issue, they may not uncurl once corrected and you'll generally see improvements in newer growth. That said, it could also be thrips/aphids or a passed virus caused by them. Given that you've had so many plants effected so quickly, this may not be the case, though. |
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| Another tomato plant. I can not remember if this one is also a roma or one of the other types. |
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| And again another one of the tomato plants. |
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| Btw, if it is leaf roll your plants are reacting to both the weather and a lack of proper rooting. It's not a disease...it's the plant trying to protect itself because it doesn't have the proper nutrient uptake (caused by a lack of root development) to fully feed the plant to it's trying to reduce it's mass production. It generally does not lead to bad fruiting when the time comes to set fruit. This could be due to too little moisture, not enough potassium, or soil that's too hard/crusty to promote root growth. |
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| For a background on my soil. A month before planting my garden I laid down a top coat of steer manure and Dr. Earths Tomatoes, veggies, and Herbs organic fertilizer. After a few weeks we turned over the soil and then did this again just before we planted out garden. Since having them planted, I have added Dr. Earths root starter in a liquid tea mix. I have been told by my neighbor, who is a gardener, that our soil needs a lot of amendments. That is why I added so much to my soil. |
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| Was that steer manure composted well? Did it smell when you planted or was it more like crumbly black stuff? That could very well be herbicide damage from the steer manure depending on where/what they were fed. If the weather issues "don't add up" to point to leaf roll, that could be what you're dealing with, especially if you're not noticing thrip infestations or extremely high aphid colonies (which is kinda unlikely given how many plants are showing signs). Given the leaf vein twisting this is most likely your issue if you can discount leaf roll. You have to be careful where you source your manure from depending on what they were fed...and it needs to be fully composted to keep herbicide damage to a minimum. ...if it is herbicide damage from "bad" or not fully composted manures it will correct itself over time, though...so it's not a panic thing (except for what's currently in the ground). Water, time, and a little bit of turning will leech/weather out the excessive herbicide if this is the issue. |
This post was edited by nc-crn on Mon, Jun 24, 13 at 2:56
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| "That looks a lot like leaf roll which is usually caused by excessively high temperatures. Are you in an arid area with winds and constant 90-100+F temperatures by chance?" I do live in an area were during the summer time it is between 80-100+ but not much wind. "That said, it could also be thrips/aphids or a passed virus caused by them. Given that you've had so many plants effected so quickly, this may not be the case, though." How fast would it take a virus to spread? I would say that my tomato leaves started looking like this right after I planted them and then with in a month or a little more my banana pepper leaves were affected. And about 2 weeks ago I noticed the leaves on all of my other pepper plants doing it. "This could be due to too little moisture, not enough potassium, or soil that's too hard/crusty to promote root growth." I also have one other bell pepper plant that I planted before I even put in the tomatoes. I saw that the location was no good for it and the slugs almost killed it, so I bought new ones and then found a new location. The original pepper plant gets quite a bit of water, so watering with this bugger would not be an issue. BUT today I noticed the leaves on it too are doing the same as the other plants. |
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| Was that steer manure composted well? Did it smell when you planted or was it more like crumbly black stuff? That could very well be herbicide damage from the steer manure depending on where/what they were fed. If the weather issues "don't add up" to point to leaf roll, that could be what you're dealing with, especially if you're not noticing thrip infestations or extremely high aphid colonies. You have to be careful where you source your manure from depending on what they were fed...and it needs to be fully composted to keep herbicide damage to a minimum. ...if it is herbicide damage from "bad" or not fully composted manures it will correct itself over time, though...so it's not a panic thing (except for what's currently in the ground).
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| "How fast would it take a virus to spread? I would say that my tomato leaves started looking like this right after I planted them and then with in a month or a little more my banana pepper leaves were affected. And about 2 weeks ago I noticed the leaves on all of my other pepper plants doing it. " Unless there was an intense thrip/insect infestation it would be very unlikely so many plants would be so uniformly/quickly effected. What was your source for your manure? That's what I'm suspect of currently since it's unlikely leaf roll is what's causing it. |
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| I got the manure from Ace Hardware. |
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| Also I would like to add that my pepper plants blossoms have been falling off with out producing anything. I know that pollination is not an issue. we have bees all over the place. |
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| I'm familiar with their steer manures...bagged...and though it's sourced from different places they're not known to sell bad manure in the past and I've never heard of anyone using their steer manure getting herbicide contaminated soil. Hmm.... That's a bit odd. They are showing signs of either leaf roll or herbicide damage, but it seems like you're not in danger of either based on what you've done, yourself. You don't have an aphid infestation and even though you don't know what thrips are you'd know if you had a lot of them on your plant. The only thing I can think of outside of this are mites (you wouldn't be able to see them with your eyes). If it is mites (not spider mites) you'd need a miteacide (such as neem oil if you want to stay organic). It's hard to self-diagnose this, though...it's one of those "look under a microscope and know what you're looking for" things to ID. Maybe someone else can help out here. I'm at the end of my sleuthing on this issue. Good luck. |
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| I have looked up what herbicide damage to tomato and pepper plants looks like and it looks just like my plants. Do you know how to cure this? I know you said that the effected leaves will probably stay that way but how do I help new growth? Also why would my pepper plant that is 4 feet away from the amended soil be effected? Would that just be from wind blowing it over to it. Also why did it take my pepper plants so long after being planted to show this? They were in the dirt for about a month and a half before they started to show the signs, where as my tomatoes showed signs right away. |
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| Awww nooo :( I thought we figured it out with the herbicide damage. With looking at pictures I still feel that it might be herbicide damage. Maybe one of my neighbors went nuts spraying poisons every where, lol. If I use neem oil just to be safe, will it harm anything if it turns out not to be a mite? |
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| The thing is, unless you're getting herbicide drift somewhere from a neighbor (like someone who sprays their lawn on a windy day or you live near a field) it may not be herbicide damage. Based on the things you've done/added it sounds like you're not doing it. Steer manure can be a bit sketchy, especially with food shortages forcing questionable feed for steers the past many years, but I've never heard of anyone getting contaminated steer manure from that bagged stuff Ace sells. They're generally good about sourcing. That's what leads me to believe it may be mites (such as broad mites or russet mites, not spider mites). Mite damage looks a lot like herbicide damage when it gets really bad and they can go plant-to-plant pretty easily. |
This post was edited by nc-crn on Mon, Jun 24, 13 at 3:37
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| "If I use neem oil just to be safe, will it harm anything if it turns out not to be a mite? " ...as long as you apply it correctly it's safe. You're not going to want to apply it just before or during the hottest/sun-filled part of the day. You pretty much want the plants to be shaded or mostly shaded until it is dry so most people apply it when the sun is going down toward the end of the day. The package/bottle should have further instructions. |
This post was edited by nc-crn on Mon, Jun 24, 13 at 3:38
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| Thank you so much :) |
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| nc-crn: wouldn't he/she have quite a bit of discoloration with a mite infestation? Don't mind me -- I'm trying to learn. Kevin |
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| This looks like herbicide damage from clopyralid or amidicloprid, which persist in grass clippings or compost. The leaf curl often manifests just as plants get going. This is what the shut down of Green Mountain composting facilities was all about this spring, and it's been a problem in WA , UT and NC for almost ten years. Google killer compost, and call your local extension agent. So sad that these chemicals have been allowed into our world. |
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| Agree with planatus - Classic herbicide damage pics. Lots of them on the Tomato forum right now to compare with if you wish and tons of them available on the web. Source can be either drift from spraying or brought in in composted amendments but the drift is 10x more common. If drift caused it then the plants will often recover in time regardless of the type of herbicide. If it is from soil added ingredients then their recovery is far less likely. Either way it has nothing to do with the tomato plants being brought into the garden or the fact they are supposedly 'heirlooms'. Dave |
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| Please read the link I posted about herbicide contaminated organic matter. (Likely from your top coat of steer manure.) herbicide contaminated OM Then read the info re how to speed the breakdown in your soil, also what will grow this season. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Clopyralid in Compost
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| Herbicide-contaminated organic matter (manures, straw, compost) has occurred widely during the past 5 or so years in from various sources: - "free" manures/straw/bedding from farmers - commercially packaged products |
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| One more thing I would like to add. I talked to my neighbor and asked her if she had any plants doing the same thing. She said one is. I told her I thought it was herbicide damage and she said our houses are located on what use to be an orchard. But this house was built in the 70s. The chemicals from the orchard would not last that long in the ground right? She seems to think that it is caused by the chemicals from the orchard but I just think that they would have broken down by now. |
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| The chemicals from the orchard would not last that long in the ground right? No, not unless they were used at such high levels that the ground was saturated with them. The odds of that are slim to none, about the same as winning the lottery. besides, what does she think they use in orchards anyway? Toxic waste chems? Dave |
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| We have had this problem over here in the last few years but most home gardeners are now alert to it. The herbicide used in fields passes through animals unchanged and reappears in the manure. Tomatoes are very susceptible. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Weedkiller in Manure
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| "nc-crn: wouldn't he/she have quite a bit of discoloration with a mite infestation?" Yes, the leaves would have a bit of grey-green spotting along with the green with russet or broad mites before they "dry up" and die off. Mite (not spider mites) damage looks a lot like herbicide damage when plants get heavily infested (right down the rolling curl). Unfortunately, they're extremely hard to impossible to see with the naked eye. You'd have to take some new growth or in-the-process-of-decline growth and stick it under a microscope to see them. About the compost-in-a-bag stuff from Ace, the steer manure...while it is possible that it is contaminated, they have a great reputation about selling fulling composted, uncontaminated manure. This is what leads me to believe it's not the steer compost. It's possible, but unlikely. I'd currently put my bets on either herbicide drift or mites. |
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| Did the tomato plants look like that when you got them? The peppers don't look as bad (may recover), but you said you didn't know what heirloom tomatoes were supposed to look like so I'm just wondering...Not that they introduced anything to the garden but I'm surprised Gurney's would have shipped anything that looked like that. Of coruse, that doesn't explain your neighbor's plant. BTW, they used some pretty nasty stuff in orchards decades ago - like lead arsenate but they stopped using that around 1950. I don't know how long that persists, but that doesn't cause the leaves to curl up that way, that I know of. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Lead arsenate in soil
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| When I got the tomato plants from Gurneys they were about 5-6 inches tall and they only had about 2-3 true leaf sets on it. The leafs at that time looked fine. As soon as I planted them and they started to grow the new growth looked like what was pictured. I truly thought when I saw it that heirloom tomatoes may have strange curly leaves. I guess that was a not so smart move on me. I contacted Ace to see if they have had any complaints about their manure. The guy said "no and it is impossible to get herbicide damage from manure". LOL I said we'll that is not what it says online. I explained how it is possible and then he said he would research it. Also I had wood chips around the plants to keep soil from splashing up on the leaves. I just took that off from around the plants. I just saw online that wood chips are not good to use as multch around the plants. I am new to gardening. I guess you learn from your mistakes. Could this have caused the herbicide damage? Also everyone talks about herbicide drift. I live in town and just can't see it being possible. I can ask my neighbors if they sprayed and herbicides just to check though. I also lean against this because my tomato plants started doing this as soon as they were planted and then a few weeks later I planted my peppers. They started to show the signs weeks after being planted. If it was herbicide drift how would the chemicals been around for a month? |
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| Lead arsenate won't cause distortion. Clopyralid and its relatives will. |
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Easy. And the most common cause by far. One of your neighbors has a lawn service that comes monthly or so. And it doesn't even have to be a next-door neighbor. It can be carried on the dominant wind direction for blocks. Other possibility is the city or county has been spraying roadside weeds. Seriously, you aren't alone with this problem. There has been probably 20 some cases reported this year over on the Tomato forum here and in all the posts where the OP got back to us it was the hubby trying to be helpful in one and the rest were a neighbor that sprayed or had a lawn service. It is really quite a common thing, especially in town rather than in the country, since folks just don't understand how susceptible to herbicides tomato and pepper plants are. One poster even got the lawn service to pay for replacing his plants. Dave |
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| What can I do about it? I read something about activated charcoal. |
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| If it's drift it's not in your soil in any concentration that's going to be around long...it's hitting your plants airborne. |
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| Right now I would plant some bush bean seeds in the affected soil. If the seedlings exhibit leaf curl and fail to thrive, you will know your soil is contaminated and the problem is not due to herbicide drift. The squash/cucumber family is generally not sensitive, ditto for corn. Plant more squash. You have my deepest sympathies. For a newbie, you plants looked great. |
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| What can I do about it? As indicated in earlier posts, if it is drift the plants will usually out grow it with timeunless there are repeated exposures. You will usually lose the damaged foliage (some trim it off) but it will be replaced with normal new growth. Focus on trying to identify the source to prevent it happening again. If you can ID the source and they will contact you before spraying them you can cover the plants with plastic for several hours that day to protect them. You can also get a professional soil test done by your local county ag extension office for approx. $12-15 if you think one is needed. Dave |
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| Peppers will do fine in large pots, you can always repot those if soil is the issue but if it's drift from neighbor they'd have the same problem unless you cover them or take them inside when you know they're spraying. I have been lucky so far, but sure I'm going to get hit one of these days when one of the neighbors starts spraying, there are quite a few houses in the subdivision my 700-ft long driveway comes off of and all my crops are within 1/2 mile of the closest neighbor. |
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- Posted by catherinet 5 (My Page) on Tue, Jun 25, 13 at 12:38
| Planatus's suggestion about growing some bush bean seeds to see how they do is a great suggestion for seeing if its a general soil contamination. I'm really sorry this has happened to you. If it is drift from a lawn service........makes you wonder what we, ourselves, are exposed to also. Would a soil test include the presence of certain chemicals? |
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| Would a soil test include the presence of certain chemicals? Yes, assuming you would tell them what your concerns are - old orchard chemicals, herbicides residues, etc. But no, if you don't provide them with full info up front then a routine test wouldn't look for chemical residues. Dave |
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| It sounds like you all have it figured out and all the advice is excellent as far as I can tell. I just couldn't help but agree that it absolutely looks like clopyralid or amiopyralid damage. I had a bad bout with it 3-4 years ago when all my homemade potting soil got contaminated by well composted alpaca manure. It took over a month to figure it out and I lost a bundle of valuable crops in the process. Clopyralid based herbicides have been banned in Oregon except for use on golf courses but then Dow chemical just comes out with Milestone which is amiopyralid instead. It's the same exact problem just with another chemical. To the OP, i'm afraid there really isn't anything you can do for the plants. Oh, I looked into a soil test for herbicide and it was extremely expensive. It's not an average soil test. Seeding some beans or peas is an excellent idea to determine if there's residue. -Mark |
This post was edited by madroneb on Tue, Jun 25, 13 at 23:20
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| The 2nd troublesome active ingredient mentioned above is spelled aminopyralid. (Sorry, I used to be a proof reader.) |
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| Good catch. That's what I meant, but I missed it twice, hmmmm. Me flunk english? Thats unpossible. |
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| I'll add that these photos look like the problem I had with 18 yards of soil I bought several years ago - Grazon contaminated soil. (It was amended with cow manure from a dairy farm.) It's been three years now and I only occasionally see a plant show the twisting and deformed leaves. Apparently the toxins do leach away and breakdown in the rain and sunshine - but I know that's little comfort when you're dealing with the problem. Wishing you the best. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Grazon contaminated soil in GA (end of thread)
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| That's because Grazon ai is picloram, another relative of clopyralid. |
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| So, how did it turn out for you last year, I am having that problem this year. Did you find the source |
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