With the cost of fuel to ship veggies going off the chart, I would say "victory gardens" are becoming more affordable. I have my doubts that we will see South American grapes and Dutch peppers in our stores forever if this keeps up. Especially with the increasing awareness of CO2 expelled from the sea frieghters.

I will put in my 2 cents on this subject:

"It all depends what you are growing".

I am growing a lot of Asian vegetables which are very hard to find, not found in local stores and driving to a city like Boston are expensive when you do find it. And if you have to drive 50 miles to find it well that defeats the idea of "you can buy it cheaper".

I am also growing heirloom varieties of various vegetables that are simply not found in the supermarket (unless maybe you live in southern California). They do not ship well, they are do always produce perfectly round, uniform shape tomatoes that fit neatly into packaging. But they taste a whole lot better and I bet are healthier.

Or growing varieties of peppers that are very expensive and not normally found in stores. Even something as mundane as potatoes for example, we are growing blue potatoes that are $3.99 for a 4 pound bag. We get bushels of them. Or Ichiban eggplant, Belgian endive, Thai eggplant (look like green golf balls), sorrel, mizuna, Asian cucumbesr etc. etc.

Or you can go to a health food boutique store and find these and the prices are through the roof.

Packet of mixed lettuce seeds - $2. Lasts me 2 growing seasons. So far, we've been getting the equivalent of 4 bags of gourmet baby lettuce per week at $2.50 per bag. I'm hoping to keep us in salads a minimum of 6 months out of the year. $10/week x 23 weeks = $230 worth of lettuce. I think the lettuce on its own has paid for a good portion of my start up costs. As DH said tonight when I came in with the fresh-picked greens "I think this is the most cost effective thing you've grown."

In what year will I break even?

Costs this year:

$900 for sod removal and initial tilling for 35x27 plot
$75 for new rubber hoses
$75 for soaker hoses
$30 hose fittings & squirter
$9, owl that is supposed to scare away animals and the birds use it for a perch.
$35, fencing around the lettuce patch
$12, metal stakes for fencing
$56, stakes for tomatoes & teepees
$10, twine for teepees
$free, 2 ornamental bird houses rec'd as gifts
$50, steel stakes to mount the bird houses
$40, peppers, brocolli, tomatoes, cukes, zukes, brussel sprouts, lettuces
$15, seeds
$20, onion sets and seed potatoe
$12, jug of osmocote
$80, new tools to include shovel, cultivator, pick, hoe
$100, gate supplies
$20, case of beer to my brother for installing a gate out of the existing chain link fence into my new garden patch.
$42, new wheel barrel
$25, spiffy red garden clogs
$20, stone bird bath
$50, stone bench
$15, mallet to pound stakes
$15, seed starter dirt & flats
$8, 2 bales of straw

Initial cost, 2007 season, $1,702.00

That about sums it up for the initial costs. Sure I can buy those nasty tomatoes at the market but what would I do all season long? I dig gardening!

Next year:
$400, top $oil, $hed, etc. My dream is to have a gla$$ green hou$e one day

I've only spent about $30 on seeds, $40 on plants and $25 on fertilizers and organic pesticides, plus $18 for a new hoe and $89 for a tiller attachment for our weedeater.

and I've planted a 40' x 80' garden.

considering that red bell peppers are $2 each in my grocery, and that seedless cukes are equally expensive, I think my money will be well spent. plus, it's so much fun! and the exercise is great. I've lost four lbs in two weeks just from the work in the garden.

hmmm...there is also DH's brand new john deere tractor. $26,000 for the tractor plus attachments. but that's for more than just my garden since we have five acres. I think just the tiller attachment is the only thing I can count as a garden expense. I forget how much that was. $1,500, I think, since he bought a non-john deer brand attachment.

Built all new beds this year and added dirt and add ins that I bought...including weed barrier and granite for aisles...so my list is like the previous posters...long and lots of dollars spent...but you all know...it has nothing to do with the cost and truthfully...if you have to explain it to someone who doesn't garden...you will never make them understand...

My husband was (now retired) an executive with a large company and he said to me...I am afraid that I will have to explain to anyone who sees you that you are going around the neighborhood collecting grass clippings and begging manure from people ...or that you have lost your glasses in a pile of manure...

My answer...don't bother telling them anything...you could never make them understand.

We're only counting stuff purchased THIS year, right? And only if it is specifically for the garden?

So I don't have to count the fruit trees & bushes, tiller, soil, mulch or garden tools we bought last year...or the lawnmower, trimmer and various other things we bought this year...

This year's count:
materials for fence & garden border - 300
seeds and plants - 50
straw for mulching - 5
trellis materials - 25
mulch - 5
water - TBD, depends how much bill goes up
no dog zone - priceless

Hmm...under $400!

crabjoe...I promise you that if you build it (and don't fence it) the deer will come...I have a high ugly fence that was put there just to keep the deer out...they eat everything...I promise you...you will not escape so try to do something to protect your garden....

How much do people spend on their hobbies? I spend more per month on my karate classes than I probably do all season for gardening. How much is fantasy baseball? Quilting? Cars? Skiing? Woodworking? Home brewing? Golf? Dancing? I spent $140 for professional level dance shoes once.

As a hobby, gardening is relatively cheap.

And I don't have to pay for a gym membership because I'm working out in the garden. Don't have to pay for yoga or meditation classes because just going out and looking at a growing plant is relaxing.

And how much does it cost to have ultra-fresh organic produce shipped right to one's door? Not only organic produce but specialty and gourmet items?

Yes, gardening costs, especially when you're just starting out and you have to buy everything new. But I think you come out way ahead in the long run. Organic simply tastes better. I'm becoming so sensitive to processed food that I'm getting to where I can taste the chemicals they use. Bleah!

There's also the thing for poorer people like myself...when you run low or out of money, you still have something good to eat.

Crabjoe, it might be cheaper to buy from the store, but i what i wanted to infer from my post, that this is only the intinial cost.............and that it's well worth it! I will more than cover my costs in terms of health quality (physical and emotional) and food quality in the future.

With my new bigger garden, I intend to reap the rewards for years to come. I could never have removed all that sod, deposed of it, etc. That was my biggest cost. My hobby is money well spent.

Now that the plot is already producing, I start little by little to win back my investment.....

Here's what I spent on gardening this year

$23 for (2) 50 pound bags of Cockadoodle DOO fertilizer

$20 for (1) 40 pound bag of Garden-tone fertilizer

$3.72 for (3) six packs of tomatoes & peppers seedlings

$11.25 for (5) six packs of heirloom tomatoes seedlings grown in my town by the local nursery.

All other seed is saved from last year or traded with friends.

$16 for (4) 3x50 foot rolls of garden fabric

$15 for garden staples

$89 total or let's call it ninety bucks.

I have (10) 4x25 and 4x30 foot raised beds in the main garden, plus a 15x15 raised bed in the back, plus a 10x10 and a 5x10 foot herb garden. Total 1475 square feet of tillage.

So my materials cost is roughly 6 cents per square foot.

Water is free, I have my own well. Sunshine is free. Compost heap the size of a small car is free. I already own the Troy-bilt mini tiller and all the hand tools.

I enjoy gardening itself as much, or more, as the vegetables it produces. Every winter I long for warmer weather and walking out of my house into a yard full of green.

Every day my garden is growing I spend hours wandering in the garden and wondering at the miracle of growing plants producing vegetables.

People who say "cheaper to buy" don't have gardening and awe of nature in their souls!

WELL! I can't buy a fine, sunny afternoon puttering around outside in a lovely garden at Wal-Mart, now can I?

I also doubt anyone can find a monotone lawn very exciting for hours at a time. "Look, dear! The grass! It's...um..taller...than last week." Oh yeah baby....whee.

Clock

ahem.....not if you wintersow LOL!

Vera

Oh my word if I spent a tenth of what some of you do my Wife would KILLL ME!!!!

Soil - Organic matter, compost(save all them leftover veggies), grass clippings, leaves, coffee grinds (none of which I actually pay for) except in time and labor.

Creating garden beds - best done previous fall, good old strong back and a few instruments of torture - 2 dollars at tag sales(a big hefty bar is amust for me, as I have alot of big ol rocks to move as well every year!), plus a rake and a hoe, purchased with a gift certificate.

Price of seeds planted this year - 3 dollars, walmart el chepos. other than a hierloom tomatoe or two I bought, so lets say under ten.

Start your own TOMATOES and PEPPERS people, you dont need nothing fancy. Ive started some in good ol top soil for 1.50 a bag before. But even a big bag of seed mix is available for 20.00 or so.

Water- well thats my well, and mother nature, my only cost would be if my well pump burnt on me =P.

So I figure I will spend 50-100 a season in costs. As long as the deer and bugs dont eat it all I know I get that back if not more.

(ditto wintersowing, I didnt do it for veggies but I got alot of flowers this year, will all bloom next year for me, but at a pittance of nursery prices.)

If you factor in the value of the land you are using for growing vegetables I don't think anyone except someone living in areas with cheap land can break even. In Orange County, California where I live land is worth probably around a million dollars an acre. So my 40 by 50 foot garden area would cost about $46,000 if I had to buy it. Interest on the loan would be more than the value of the vegetables. Throw in the hundreds of hours of labor and over a thousand dollars I spent just on compost and gypsum no way I could break even. Then add in $1100 I spent on a Troy built Horse rotatiller 20 years ago and hundreds of dollars on gardening tools and a wheelbarrow no way I could break even. Seeds, plants, and fertilizer are a negligible part of the cost but that seems to be the only cost many here consider. I also spent over $600 on the 22 fruit trees I have planted at various times on other parts of my property.
But that said, gardening is my hobby so I ignore the expense. Even after all this I just spent another $220 on potting soil, mulch, plants, seeds, fertilizer, and more tools just for this years garden.

I forgot to add water to that list of gardening expenses. If you live in an area like southern California that only got 2.5 inches of water total in the past 14 months water can be a major expense. A full grown Avocado tree needs about 400 gallons of water a week. Farmers get their irrigation water cheap because its not purified, but we have to use expensive city water. On top of that where I live they raise your sewer bill for every gallon of water you use.

"It must cost you $50/eggplant." This is the common comment I hear. After my children, garden is the most I spend on. And its worth every cent. My kids are involved in every phase. They learn about seasons and bugs. They learn to respect nature and why we need to use organic fertilizers. My older son (now 5) recognizes when a vegetable is ready to harvest and the etiquette of detaching the vegetable from the plant. My 2 year old daughter last year ate cucumbers right off the vine! And my son knows that all the extra harvest has to be shared with various neighbours. So I tell people its worth every cent and more...

Wow Californian! Those are some pricy plants and dirt. You cant put a price on health either, not much mention of that here. I am much healthier not only eating healthy fresh vegetables right out of my patch but the therapy I receive from all the activity is priceless considering it's about $85/hour to see a therapist around here. With that consideration, I might break even in the first couple years already. Gardening helps me get rid of my stress. It also keeps my weight down, what's the cost of a yearly gym membership--about $600? Weight Watchers is about $624/year as well. It looks like I'm approaching the break even point even faster than I can type...........as long as I wear gloves and dont break too many finger nails for salon trips could rock me.......ugh!

Diet and exercise, diet and exercise--that's what they keep saying are the secrets to long life, excellent health, and eternal youth. Okay, maybe I'm cribbing about the eternal youth part, but gardeners get plenty of exercise and eat fresh, healthful produce. We also get sunshine to raise our serotonin--no need for Prozac here. We also don't need Lunesta because by the time we turn in after a day in the garden, we sleep like logs. Lipitor? With a healthy diet and a lot of exercise, we lose weight and lower our cholesterol. And no need for anti-anxiety medicine because working in a garden is a meditation in itself.

And believe me, prescriptions cost! Especially if, like many people, you're underinsured or uninsured. So there's another savings right there.

I agree with lolly gardener about how it is so worth it to garden for/with children. My three year old "step-grandson" (I put it in quotes because, he is my husbands grandson, but I am not anywhere near old enough to be his grandmother)loves my garden so much. The first thing he wants to do when he comes over is run out to see what seeds sprouted, what flowers have bloomed since he was last here and pick anything I will allow him to pick. Today he was so excited because we picked the first 10 ripe strawberries.

He has been helping in the garden since he learned to walk. He loves running up and down the paths--and amazingly learned from the very beganing that we "walk only on the paths, not the dirt"--something I often have a hard convincing adults of.

I love gardening--and it is priceless to be able to share that love with a child.

I'm not sure I can buy into the idea adding in the cost of the land as part of your cost of gardening. After all, you already own the land, right? And either own it outright or are paying on a mortgage note. Either way, the 40x50 plot or whatever size garden is already factored into your mortgage that you are already paying. The land still cost the same and is still worth the same when you sell, whether or not you are using it for gardening as opposed to say, covering it with something hideous like crushed gravel, or paving it with asphalt.

So to my mind the only difference in the equation is, are you getting some usefulness out of that patch of dirt you already own, or are you just letting it sit there? If you are using that land for gardening instead of say, adding a 2 story 40x50 foot addition to your house, then I agree with you the garden plot is costing you money in terms of resale value of the property. On the other hand, if you are using an unused corner of your yard to grow food, then the garden is saving you money.

Since when is gravel, when done tastefully, "hideous"?

I scoff at thee, good sir!

Clock

HAH! "Hideous" indeed!

It's still in progress, but I doubt this is hurting the value of my home, mind you.

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pfft...hideous

Clock

Gravel is for quarries.

To each their own, I guess.

But I'm right.

Clock

Clockwork: I think your garden is lovely! Beautiful boxes.

There is something that we get from gardening that does not come from buying cucumbers or squash at the store. Relaxation. I love to sit on my deck and stare down at the garden .
Every morning after I wake up, I walk downstairs and outside to see what has bloomed or sprouted overnight.

I also agree with the comment about not being able to get certain varieties in the store. My favorite salad ingredient is Frisee lettuce, and I can never find it anywhere in a store. So I grow it.

Try finding pawpaws in a store in Kansas. Good luck.

Clock

I say: "Some people _like_ to garden."

Buy it cheaper? Sure. Once I factor in the "hidden" costs (gas, time, insurance, taxes, etc.) am I really getting a better deal? When I make my spaghetti sauce or salsa in the winter it sure does taste better.

My foray into gardening started with 3 volunteer tomato plants. I had talked about doing this once I bought a house and a fellow gardener gave them to me. Only a few fruit but it was a start.

The second year I turned six 4' X 4' plots and had tomatoes, bell peppers, lettuce, spinach, radishes, broccoli, snow peas on our fence and a plot of sweet corn. A little better in the harvest but I wasn't where I wanted to be in terms of size. I bought some black plastic and covered what I wanted to be a realistic garden size. Once the grass was burned I turned the dirt in the Fall and put horse manure over it in preparation for next year.

The third year I expanded into Brussell sprouts, 4 varieties of lettuce and radishes, habs, jalapenos and Thai hot peppers and Hungarian wax peppers in addition to those previously mentioned. Due to rabbit issues I put up a chicken wire fence and added a gate.

This year I have cabbage, zucchini, cucumbers, kolrabi, Swiss chard, cayenne peppers and everything else except the sweet corn which doesn't really grow well in this plot and it's not worth the time, effort or resources to do so. I barter for that with a farmer I know.

No, not everything has gone perfect and there is a lot of trial and error. Most of my tools and materials were bought at garage sales and auctions or picked up out of someones junk pile or giveaways seen in the paper. I only use horse manure, blood meal or bone meal, and compost for soil amendments, no pesticides. I use straw to keep weeds at bay. All digging was done by hand. I have the advantage of living in an area that each house has its own well so I don't have water cost issues other than electricity.

My garden today is 20' X 30'. I have less lawn to mow. I got into canning last year and will do more so this year. It is therapy for me and brings a sense of pride and accompishment for trying to keep it simple. My neighbors say it's too much work yet they are the first in line when the harvest begins. I've built a cold frame and a starter room, all with free scrap materials. Screws and nails are cheap. I'd say I've spent about $200 overall in materials/tools and on average $50 a year for seeds/plants.
I don't include gas because I usually find things in my travels to somewhere else. Time I have.

In this "instant gratification" society you can ring up a pretty penny to start a garden and it doesn't produce the way you think it should because they think it is so simple. Too many people make that mistake. It takes time, patience, planning, research and a little ingenuity. Only then can one figure out how to save money and time with less to enjoy more.

"I love thee to the length & breadth my lot can reach (Shakespeare rolling in grave)"

That quote is Elizabeth Barret Browning - not Shakespeare!

You cant buy at any price what I grow in my garden. At least not in my area. Sure you can buy tomatoes, cucumbers, eggplant, okra, etc at the local supermarket or farmers market. I have yet to taste or see a better product in those places that I grow in my own backyard. And that to me is Priceless.

How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.
I love thee to the depth and breadth and height
My soul can reach, when feeling out of sight
For the ends of being and ideal grace.
I love thee to the level of every day's
Most quiet need, by sun and candle-light.
I love thee freely, as men strive for right.
I love thee purely, as they turn from praise.
I love thee with the passion put to use
In my old griefs, and with my childhood's faith.
I love thee with a love I seemed to lose
With my lost saints. I love thee with the breath,
Smiles, tears, of all my life; and, if God choose,
I shall but love thee better after death.

-- Elizabeth Barrett Browning

>>>You can buy it cheaper than you can grow it

Yeah, but the crap you buy (where I live) taste nothing like what I grow!

That's why they call it a HOBBY!

Anyone who read this thread the whole way through would love reading the book "The $64 Tomato"

Besides, I can't get purty colored eggplants at my farm stand. Why waste the space on flowers? Grow some neat veggies!

I'm sure I said this before, but I consider gardening cheap entertainment. How much would I have to pay to get this amount of enjoyment from some other forms of entertainment on a dollars per hour basis?

Also, I certainly would not like to spend those hours in a gym instead of the fresh air and sunshine of my garden.

Lastly, although my garden may not pay off in monetary terms, once I have the garden there are certain things I can grow easily which have become expensive to buy. Vegetables are now usually priced in dollars per pound, not cents.

Jim

I would respond: "I'm not doing this for money, I'm doing it for the fun."

Wait until a natural disaster when food can't be bought - and then we'll see how valuable vegetable gardening skills are :D
That alone is worth it to me. I always keep seeds on hand along with my food supply 'just in case'.

Maybe somebody can buy cheaper, but somebody can make growing cheaper and enjoy taste that is not comparable with market bought produce.
I have couple hens in my backyard. I am constantly putting some sod, fall leaves, grass cuttings, veggie scraps in their "backyard". Hens mix all together, in spring i remove this "gold" and make a veggie bed out of it. I mulch these beds with grass cuttings (don't need fertilizer). I do my own compost.

I "harvest" water from the roof to water my garden. A little bit more work but i think carring water is just adds to my bone strenth.

I grew my own seedlings saving seeds and reusing pots and other supply.

Well, something we have to buy like hardware cloth to put on a top of fence to prevent raccons from entering garden, but this is one time investment that pays for itself.

And pleasure to be in garden, eat fresh organic product is sure priceless.

Here is a link that might be useful:

This year I paid about $18. for tomato plants (they were raised for me by a local nursery and I ended up giving a lot away), about $3. for the fertilizer and another $6. for two sacks of compost. I also used a bale of shredded wood shavings, about $4. - total cost $31. So far just over 100 pounds of tomatoes not counting the Sungolds I snacked on while I was out there. That works out at less than 30 cents a pound for tomatoes. The zucchini was cheaper - $1.99 for the seed - I didn't weigh the produce but I've been eating zukes for two months now. Same with beans. Same with Swiss chard. Haven't yet started eating kale but I've got a huge crop for that $2.50 package of seed. The beets are the winter keeper kind - it looks like I got maybe 15 pounds as a return on my seed packet and some compost.
I've been raising food in that patch for over 20 years so my original investment in fencing, tools, etc, has been paid for long ago. At this point it's almost pure profit.
Of course, water is cheap up here in the northeast, it mostly comes from the sky. And I see that fact has finally dawned on the economists who are proposing that a lot of our agriculture be moved from the arid southwest to the rainy northeast. It sure is amazing how they come up with these ideas!

What I've spent on my garden since I moved into my house last year probably equals the same amount as one ski weekend in Vail.

And gardening's safer!

I've been gardening for nearly 20 years but this is the first time I get perfect corns. You can beat corns from the garden. I do spend a lot of money on seeds because I love to order from seed catalogs. My biggest fear is running out of seeds. LOL!
My garden is one huge refrigerator. I go outside everyday to pick vegetables for dinner. Much more convenience than farmer's market.

I can't think of any other activity where you are working on something that REQUIRES partnering with God.

I just bought and read the $64 Tomato. It was great. The tranquility I get from working in the garden and the mental destressing gardening does for me is a heck of a lot cheaper than any therapist.

I can go out in my garden and pick and eat 10 cherry tomatoes while I'm contemplating my next move. If I tried that in the grocery, my next move would be the store manager booting me out the front door.

I can't get okra here, so I have to grow it.

Finally, if my wife can't find me in the house, she knows where I'll be........in the garden.........priceless.

This thread reminds me of an interesting column in the NYT Sunday Magazine by the freakonomics guys; http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/magazine/06wwln-freakonomics-t.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

When I decided to grow a more extensive selection of vegetables this year I worried about the cost/return aspect and tallied up my expenses. I did it on the cheap and still managed to spend around $500. But...consider what I would have spent on a week's vacation. For example, I used to spend a week going to Tennessee to the Bonnaroo music festival. Last time I went it cost me about $2,700 - $1,000 for tickets, gas, hotels, food and $1,700 to get my car ready for the trip. The $1,700 can probably be subtracted since I would have had to spend that money eventually, but I'm still $500 ahead by staying home. So 1 week in TN compared to hours of entertainment in the garden. I stayed home alot more because there's always something to do in the garden so that saved more gas and wear and tear on the auto. But then I decided I needed more space to garden in and spent $800 hiring someone to clear the land behind my garage and $35 for a dump permit to get rid of the debris. Oops, back in the red but I can rationalize that expense as adding to the value of my house! The key here is rationalization - if you love it you will find a way to justify the expense. My vacation came and went and I had a couple photos to remember it, my garden came and is waning now but I see in my pantry rows of jars filled with pickles, salsa, stewed tomato etc etc. I'll be enjoying my garden for the rest of the year into next and until next year's garden.

>>So do people tell you that it is cheaper to buy it than to grow it and how do you respond?

Yes, they do.

They are not, however, always correct. I grow fresh berries far cheaper than I could possibly buy them, and I can have them when they're not available fresh at any cost (I have everbearers that produce 2 crops or sometimes even are true day-neutrals that trickle out their crops; farmers prefer single-croppers because of their harvesting overhead). Cane fruits and strawberries are, by the way, quite cheap to grow; the cost at the supermarket is due to the fact that they are difficult to mechanize their production, expensive for the farmers to harvest, and hard to ship intact.

I am also cost-conscious. I always ask myself how I can keep my costs down, build my own productive infrastructure or do without, recycle, and make use of out what would otherwise be wasted.

For example, I always grow some nitrogen-fixers in order to save on fertilizer costs. I try to salvage the minerals in kitchen scraps by composting them. We're going to have chickens next year to convert our scraps into valuable eggs and, um, fertilizer.

I plant a high ratio of semi-permanent crops, because it gets labor-intensive to till the soil every year. My fruit trees, berries, artichokes, asparagus, perennial herbs, and rhubarb don't need annual tilling.

I use the best hand-tools I can find. Cheaper to buy and operate than mechanized tools, and more effective and longer-lived than shoddy tools.

My produce requires far less processing and handling than its commercial counterpart to reach my table. Pick, pick, waddle over to kitchen sink, rinse, and it's at the point where the commercial produce was after days of processing and transport.

So, they are not always correct that it is cheaper to "just buy it". But savings on fresh produce is not the only objective, as many of you have already pointed out. There are crops I want but could not get fresh at any price, but can grow, there is a quality factor to consider (my produce is fresher and my fruit is fully ripe), and the garden keeps me off the streets and is cheap recreation.

I concur with everyone. Yes, you might be able to buy produce at the local grocer or produce stand but this year prices were $2.00 a pound for tomatoes, 2.00 for 2 cukes, 1.00 a piece for peppers, ect.....I spent a little over $1,300 for seed, fertilizer, plants, a new small tiller ect...but I picked (and am still picking all of these) tomatoes, peppers, jalopenos, egg plant, okra, beans, peas (which are now gone) and now have lettuce, and other assorted greens. I've probably had over ten bushels total of all of this so I feel I got more than my money back including the health benefits, excercise and shear joy of seeing stuff grow and friends and family enjoyment of it to. Plus, like one person said, it's cheap recreation and it keeps me off the streets :)

This thread has jumped to a thread #2

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/cornucop/msg0113153728644.html?26

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread #2