Corn for Meal & Grits 2

Hey folks,

I canТt get my old thread on "corn for meal and grits" to come back up the list, and I canТt find it using GardenwebТs search engine. I can find it if I go to the following link, which was so graciously supplied by one of our members in PNBrownТs thread on Hickory King Corn.

I would like to encourage other gardeners to consider growing a non-sweet corn, if cornmeal, grits and support for legumes is of interest. Points made in the previous thread of this name were 1) Sweet corn inherently has weak stalks, which are not suitable for supporting most beans, 2) Non-sweet (flour, dent or flint) corns can be used for corn on the cob, but they are just thatЕ not sweet; good, but not sweet. 3) as was also so well illustrated in the Hickory King progress thread, homemade cornmeal and corn bread are out of this world!

I hope to put half my main garden in corn next year. I want to do this because 1) My time is limited and corn is a lot less work, 2) Corn helps me to control weeds. 3) We USE IT!

This year, because I had hunted down a traditional Cherokee corn for use in a local Trail of Tears historical garden, I grew Cherokee Squaw corn along with our favorite Mesquakie Indian corn. I isolated them by a couple hundred feet and made sure that they came into silk several weeks apart. Both are great corns. I still need to grow out more of the Cherokee Squaw in order to assure my supply of seed. I will be supplying that historical garden again, in 2009, since they had a crop failure.

Here are two pictures. The one of Cherokee Squaw really doesnТt do it justice, it is just so beautiful, yetЕ totally different from Mesquakie Indian corn.

Mesquakie Indian Corn

Cherokee Squaw Corn
IТve concluded that I would prefer to space my rows at 4Т in the future. Though in 2007 I did one experimental planting, in which I really crowded the corn with only about a foot between rows and perhaps 8" between plants within the row. That arrangement was messy and hard to weed. But it produced extremely well. I did that right where I had intensively composted.

In order to maintain an open pollinated corn one should grow at least 200 plants per year. Isolation is important. Each variety should be separated by several hundred feet to ╝ mile. My understanding is that non-sweet varietiesТ pollen is heavier and tends to fall to the ground more quickly than that of sweet corn. But since my home is easily ╜ mile to a full mile from any other gardens with corn, I prefer to stagger my plantings to that varieties come into silk at different times. I donТt want to maintain more than two varieties however. That would be too complicated for my life situation at this time.

There are a number of sources for open pollinated corn seed. Sandhill Preservation has the most complete listing of any commercial source that I know.

George
Tahlequah, OK

Here is a link that might be useful: Corn for meal & Grits 1

George, I wholeheartedly agree.

I dabbled with flour and dent corns this year, buying a small packet each of the following:

Northstine Dent
Magenta Parch
Hopi Pink Flour
and two varieties from Native Seeds/Search that have Spanish/Mexican/Native American type names that I can neither remember, spell, nor pronounce!

I also had saved my own seeds for Earthtones Dent, Oxacan Dent, and a couple of unnamed Indian Corns.

I planted one flat of each kind (48 plants/flat). They were a bit overgrown in the flat when I planted out, due to abnormally cold spring weather delaying transplanting to my garden. At one point, I feared that they would be stunted, but they grew out of it and all produced at least some ears.

I learned ONE thing right away -- the Southwestern varieties from Seeds of Change and Native Seeds/Search were definitely NOT happy in my cool and very moist conditions this summer -- they developed a lot of rusty looking fungal disease of some type on the foliage, which sort of did them in somewhat prematurely. I got some ears off of these, but the contrast with the types I regularly grow here, like Earthtones dent, and with the Northstine Dent, which is an heirloom from N. Michigan, was quite obviously -- the other types were MUCH less affected by disease issues.

Anyway, I have enough ears, I estimating, to probably give me 20 pounds of cornmeal when all is said and done. So far, I have shelled and ground 2.5 lbs.

Next year, I'm planning on growing a LOT more of this -- I think a good goal would be to produce 100 lbs of cornmeal, so I can give some away to my two sisters and still have a fair quantity for myself.

I also grew four kinds of popcorn, a yellow, a white, and strawberry, plus my home-grown Japanese Ornamental Popcorn (the type with the pink and white striped leaves, grown often as an ornamental but which is a good popcorn) all of which did very well.

I experimented with a lot of new crops this year, because I have concerns about the stability of our social order, and I find it comforting to be able to grow most of my own food on my 2.1 acres. Other things I grew this year to trial included quinoa, various dried beans, ground cherries, yacon, grain amaranths, oats, barley, spring wheat, litchi tomato, etc.

Anyway, back to the corn discussion, I am going to seek out some new varieties for next year, but will stay away from the Southwestern types because of my climate.

Another crop I would like to grow but have BIG problems with are soybeans -- EVERYTHING, apparently, which is herbivorous or omnivorous, eats them -- all I got were stumps, with every little bit of new growth throughout the season promptly chewed off. The ONLY soybeans which produced were a handfull in a couple of pots in my greenhouse == these I'm saving for seed for next year, guess I'll have to grow it exclusively in pots or in a fenced bed.

Nice-looking colorful ears, George.

Yes, I'm on that corn-wagon too. Definitely. It appears to be a reliable and low-labor method of grain production. I'm really pleased with HK, except that it is too tall for trellising beans. I need to find a shorter mid-atlantic variety for that purpose.

Jimster, if you read this and would like to trade one of your heirlooms that have done well on the Cape for some HK that would be real good for me.......

Pat, how did you know I was lurking here with great interest? And how did you read my mind regarding HK? I'm quite sure I never posted anything about it. This is creepy. :-)

I'm on the verge of a decision between continuing my diversified garden or doing a three sisters garden, which has been on my mind for a couple of years. Because of the small space I have, I think it will be one or the other. Thanks for the nudge. I'll let you know.

Keep up the good thread folks. You make "corn for meal and grits" very interesting.

Jim

Well, I figgured there was no way you'd miss a thread like this, Jim!

The brilliantly colored corn of George's picture remind me that the supposedly all-white strain of HK I grew this year has exhibited some splashes of pink here and there, and today I found an all-yellow ear. The pink-mottled ones are quite pretty - I think I'll preferentially plant those out next year. Be kinda cool to breed up a new strain.......

Here's one of those pinkish ones:

First successful year growing corn, even though I made several mistakes. Grew Hopi blue. We ate some in the young stages, it had a blue tint similar to the red tint shown in the picture above. Young it has an intensely "corn" flavor, not sweet but still very good. It is like corn flavor on steroids if you know what I mean. To me sweet corn does not have much corn flavor sometimes. Once mature, the kernels were black (I have a little cob in one of my harvest pictures). We could not eat it on the cob when mature, so i froze some after grinding up some. The cobs grew to be different sizes, it was not a genetically uniform crop but very interesting. Will definitely grow again. Saved some seeds that I think are pretty pure. I also grew true platinum corn from seeds of change. Nice too, did not do as well for us. Now I am trying to hybridize the two for a fall crop.

I used the blue corn to make tamales, but I am not happy with the results. I also used it to make corn bread, and that was fantastic! I loved the corn bread. We tried popping it, and does not pop well.

Would any of you folks that have the red type of corn (prefer for corn bread than popping) trade me some seeds for the Hopi blue? I would grow it by itself away from other corn first.

Here's a link to Sandhill Preservation Center's corn listing. They have a couple of red corns. It was interesting to note that they have a number of varieties of Hickory King too!

George

Here is a link that might be useful: Sandhill Preservation Center corns

Amazing collection.

Would I be right in thinking that the "flour" category is more-or-less cognate with the southwestern varieties? While "dent" is the southeastern group and "flint" the northern?

Actually, I doubt it. Flour corn is simply corn which has little of the very hard outer shell and more of the softer interior, which is normally found in a kernel of dent or flint. Some Southwestern corns are flour and some are not. I'm pretty sure there are some Southeastern adn Northeastern flour corns. But I'm not able to positively identify them: at least not without doing some investigation. Incidentally, in Mexico, flour corns are usually held in high esteem for corn on the cob.

Here's one more link. Turns out that Southern Exposure Seeds has a good selection too.

Here is a link that might be useful: Southern Exposure Corns

Another grain crop which seems very easy to grow and gives a good yield is sorghum. A 2lb bag of "Bob's Red Mill" brand sorghum flour is $6.99 at Whole Paychecks, err, um, Whole Foods. My one flat, planted out, didn't do all that great this year, a bit stunted in the flat, so only got about 4 feet tall, but it yielded pretty nice heads, enough that I can probably get about 4 or 5 lbs of flour.

Most grain crops grow easily, IME, but the devil is in harvesting. Maize is so easy, comparitively. Sorghum is similar in harvest labor to small grains, I suppose?

Flour corn kernels contain almost entirely soft starch, with only a very thin outer seed coat. This type of corn easily grinds into a soft flour. The majority of the corn grew by the Cherokee before european contact was a white flour though they also grew a mixed color flour, a red flint, blue and white flint, solid white flint and a solid yellow flint. Many other eastern Native American "tribes" also grew flour corns including (but not limited to) Tuscarora, Shawnee and Miami.

It appears that dent corns did not reach the southeast until the late 1700's or early 1800's thru traders from Mexico. These are "late flowering" and needed a long growing season which limited their use to the southern states and which are referred to as "Southern Dents". These dents are higher yielding than most flour and flint corns. These early "southern dents" were the basis for many dent and flint crosses which eventually developed into the vast "corn belt dents" we have today growing through most of the country.

I applaud everyone growing some of the old varieties of corn. Just remember they cross very, very easily and need their tassel time separated by at least 3 weeks or isolate 1/2 mile of more but even then...in a patch of white corn I grew this year, I got a single yellow kernel with the closest field corn over 3/4 mile plus a large wooded area in between.

Blueflint

Well, I am glad that "dents" made it to north america because they seem to be well-adapted to my region and as you say are very productive. That is good, because I don't have much prime space at present.

As I understand it, maize in it's homeland (southern mexico?) is variated by altitude rather than latitude. So I would tend to think that most north american maize is originally derived from from high-altitude tropical varieties which would presumably have the adaptation to a shorter growing season.

Well, I'm not sure of the exact path they had to take. From 1988 through 1992 our family lived in Tlatlauquitepec, Puebla, Mexico; at 7500' elevation. "Tlatlauqui" as we called it, had a cold rain forest climate, receiving over 11' of precipitation a year. The most favored local corn was a native, multicolored "shoe peg" corn. The kernels were small, long and narrow. When used for tortillas this corn produced blue tortillas. Anyway, in that region they planted it in the middle of February and it was ready for harvest in October.

One time, a friend of mine, who loved this corn, took seed to his native lowland community, which was roughly at the same latitude, but at a much lower altitude. His home was tropical. There, he planted a small field of this corn. It produced for him in 90 days!

So, I mailed a sample to Glenn Drowns, in Iowa. He planted some, probably in April or May. In October he wrote me and reported that the stalks were going on 20' tall and only just beginning to make silk. The only way he could make seed from this corn was to grow it in a green house (a tall one, I might add).

Perhaps there are Mexican Dents which are less daylength sensitive. But my guess is that initial crosses between them and North American flint corns must have take place in a southern environment with a late late frost.

On another note, I used to visit a Totonac Indian community which raised different corns in different altitude fields. The fields were up and down the mountains, so they were not that far apart... unless one counted altitude. These were STEEP fields! Each corn had been specifically selected for that altitude and the conditions found in those fields. It was amazing! Back in the 90s, when hurricane Gilberto (I believe) struck that area, they lost everything. It was so sad. This is one area which I never saw the Mexican government act. They didn't seem to recognize how fragile and valuable those resources are.

Blueflint, that's fantastic info! Your input on isolation confirms me in my decision to only grow two varieties. As the years go by I'm becoming more inclined to raise quantities of certain seed crops rather than quantities of varieties. I want to do WELL at preserving what I grow. So, in order to help preserve more varieties... I guess we need to encourage more growers!

George

I would love to have seen that, George. Pretty amazing.

Got some good news here today! Went over and talked to the local organic veggie grower (easy two-mile bike ride) and showed him the HK ears - he was much impressed by the quality and the fact that there was little insect problems. He doesn't grow sweet corn - just too difficult here - so he said I could have a plot in the fields next year for a trial. CSA members will like seeing the tall corn growing. Flat tilled ground! Not something I have had the pleasure of encountering very much. If there is still diesel available for spring tilling, anyway. He will provide the fertilizer and I'll plant and lay it by. Pretty exciting, should be able to produce 10-20 bushels next year.

So this year was put to good use as I won't need to buy 5 or 10 pounds of seed in the spring.

George, thanks for the Sandhill preservation site link. I love the variety, but I am having a hard time deciding which would be best. I have the possibility of growing 2 or even 3 types without intermixing or interbreeding. Part of the reason is that no one else in Los Angeles is that crazy to grow corn in their front yard/back yard....LOL

I wanted something not sweet, not pop corn, that would be good for making tamales. The Hopi blue corn that I grew did not come with any information on whether it was considered 'flour', 'flint' or 'dent' (I know for sure not sweet, not pop corn). I have been searching the web and found a couple of references. One site calls it Hopi blue dent corn which is an ancient flint (so is it flint or dent?), while another site refers to Hopi blue flour corn. All I know is that while I loved it for corn bread, I did not like it for tamales, and since I can grow another varietal without chances of hybridization I would like to try one that I can use for tamales. Since you lived in Mexico, would you know what varietal are most similar to corn used in tamales? TIA....

Pat - that is great news ole buddy. Where is the picture of your cornbread? Was going to show it to someone and could not find it.

Shot

Thanks, mr shot - check your email.

Hey, remember, before you tell your friends about the yankee that makes southern-style corn bread, I'm not a real yankee! Only cheap as one. I have learned to never respond to questions with more than one word, and to never be polite to real yankees. They hate that.

Cabrita, dent corn seemed to be that which was most often used for tamales. "Nixtamal" is what they call the dough made from wet grinding the lye treated corn. I cannot say if flour corn was used for tamales, and I don't recall seeing flint corn. There might have been some flint down there, but I don't recall seeing it. Flour corn was very popular for "pozole" a soup made with many ingredients, whole kernel corn being one of the main ones.

So, I'd say you would probably do fine with a dent corn.

George

Thanks George! I will select a dent corn, hopefully one that is good for my climate (maybe a red one just for looks...LOL).

I know nixtamal, we can purchase it premixed here in Los Angeles. I am trying to make tamales like in central America, they do not use the lye and use banana leaves for wrapper instead of the corn husks. Different than the Mexican version, but I am pretty sure it was the same type of corn. We have bananas growing (still no fruit) so we get to use our own banana leaves for wrappers.

I was so impressed with the amount of FOOD that the blue corn produced, in a really small piece of garden (OK, I did plant too close, one of my mistakes). So yummy and easy to harvest too. I am definitely growing corn again. I plant with beans and squash or cucumbers too, but I find the beans outlive the corn by a lot, and they are hanging on dried stalks at the end, but this is OK. On one patch I planted sunflowers a little later to keep doing the job of supporting the beans.

OK, if I may ask another question, to those of you who like to grind the corn when it is dried for making cornmeal and your own corn bread, what do you use to grind it with? is there an inexpensive not too bulky mill anyone can recommend? hand cranked is OK with me if that is even possible.

In my other thread there is a photo of a well-known inexpensive mill, the "corona". Very good quality, no plastic. I think they may have been bought out and are marketed by a different company but if you search "mill"+"corona" it will surely come up. It's outstanding for the money, doesn't grind very fine but is quite good for grits and coarse meal. It's a good food-mill too, as it comes apart easily for cleaning. I sometimes soak corn until soft and then run thru to make a paste to roll out tortillas.

I too use a "Corona" mill like pnbrown. I toast (parch) my corn before grinding. On it's finest setting it makes a good corn meal. If I set it a bit coarser I can make a decent grits substitute. I say "substitute" because I don't treat the corn with lye, making hominy, before grinding for true grits.

Cabrita, the corn dying down and beans lingering is nornal. I have some cornfield beans on dead cornstalks which went from over 6' tall to under 4' tall because the corn kept breaking down. Still, they beans just keep on producing. Sometimes I'll plant some cowpeas down the middle of the corn. They will just languish there, due to the shade, until the corn begins to dry down. Then they spring up and start covering the dead stalks. This helps to shade out weeds.

If you ever get down to Mexico proper you might look for such a grinder (they are cheaper there). They are commonplace in most hardware stores, as they are what most folk use when they make homemade tortillas. Those who are purists and like the most authentic handmade quality, will usually grind their corn (having first boiled it in a lime solution and removed the outer shell of each kernel) and grind it with a "Corona" mill. (There are many brands.) The nixtamal is usable at this point. But purists, those who insist on the same quality as "Mama" used to make back on the farm, will often take this dough and grind it by hand with a "metate" a flat grinding stone used with a rolling pin kind shaped stone over the top surface. This makes the finest dough/meal of all.

George

Like the one in this link? (if it works)

That would be nice, sturdy, multi purpose and uncomplicated. The price is reasonable too. Thanks for the advice! I think I will order one. Not sure if my fall corn will make it, it was seriously knocked down by the Santa Ana winds, the same ones that knocked a huge branch from the pecan, falling on the power line going to the house...(fixed now, but a non electric mill gets more points with me....)

Here is a link that might be useful: Corona mill

Yep, that's it. Looks largely unchanged, though the hopper is much bigger than my old one. The price is about unchanged as well, if I remember correctly, from over 20 years ago. Which means it's effectively half the price now. How the heck do they do that?

I thought I'd share my corn-grinding experiences with the group.

I was thinking about a grain mill of some type, but they all seem rather expensive, and many of them sound like they take a long time. Plus, I definitely couldn't see cranking one by hand, and the electric ones are the most expensive.

So, I was poking around kitchen departments of local stores, and decided to take a chance on a Black & Decker coffee mill with adjustable grind settings.

It was on sale for $15 at Target, regular price was $25. Anyway, I don't know if it will hold up long-term, but I've ground several pounds of corn as well as several pounds of other grains (wheat, rice, amaranth, millet) with no trouble whatsoever. It takes between 30 and 60 seconds to grind a hopper full, which is about 1 1/2 cups.

The machine has 12 different grind settings, from extremely fine, essentially a powder, to quite coarse, like cracked wheat. Corn had to be put through a second time for true flour, grinding only once yielded a fine corn meal on the finest grind setting.

I thought this was a good way to get into grain grinding without spending a lot of money. With heavy use, I'm sure it would probably break down fairly rapidly. But, I will probably only grind a cup or two of grain at a time, once or twice a week, so it should last for a while.

$38 seems expensive?

In truth, it's the cheaply-made stuff that is expensive. Anything at a box store has to be cheaply-made, I reckon.

I placed an order for the Corona mill, yay!

I use a little electric coffee grinder for flax seeds and spices (and another one for coffee), however I have burnt out several of those, and little food processors as well. Adding up all the $15 and more for the food processor, I rather spend a little more on something that seems sturdier. That mill looks like it can stand up to my use, and hand cranking is good for the muscle tone you know....I do not expect to have THAT much corn (or amaranth) or other grains/nuts at one time, but I do expect to keep using it frequently over the years. From my experience the inexpensive electric mills of various types do not last, and I do not want to shell out the big bucks for an electric pricey one.

Macmex, I loved the picture you once posted of a wheelbarrow full of your home-grown corn, some with husks on, some with husks peeled back to expose the kernels. It was a beautiful harvest photo. Any chance you could post it on this thread? Please....

Hey Macmex,

This is a wonderful thread thank you for starting it. I grow open pollinated corn for corn bread. I have always loved corn bread and so I started growing my own field corn to make bread. It makes the corn meal from the store taste like saw dust. I have given it to some friends and now they prefer it to what they used to get at the store. The bread tastes like fresh corn.

I have started growing Leaming corn. It was developed in this area. Prior to Reids Yellow dent it was the most popular yellow field corn grown in America and was carried to all the parts of the corn belt. In Ohio it had the reputation I'm told of having the highest yeilds. It's a great corn and for me has done better around here than Reids Yellow dent.

I have also grown Hickory King and it does well for a white corn in these parts but I want to try Boone County White also. I think it might do even better. I am partial to the yellow or white corn belt dents because I grew up in the corn belt and that's what I'm used to seeing in a corn field.

Don, sounds like you do a great deal with corn! Great to make your acquaintance!

Ppod, I had to do some work to find this, since I have two different Photobucket accounts and apparently something was changed, since my passwords didn't work with either. Here's that picture.

Also, here's a nice picture of Cherokee Striped Cornhill pole bean growing on some dry corn stalks. This bean is super prolific. If I take the time I seem always to be able to find more dry seed on this one. The snaps are excellent, being much like our own beloved Tennessee Cutshort (tender till they dry down and with easy to pull strings). But this bean has longer more slender pods. Anyway, if one is going to grow a sturdy non- sweet corn, it would be good to at least plant a couple beans on the ends of the rows.

George

Cabrita, I don't think you will be sorry.....

Don, that's funny because I had picked our Reid's yellow dent to grow at home next year. It says that it only goes about 7 feet tall which will be good for carrying beans. Makes a good roasting ear also, apparently?

If I follow through with my idea of making a three sisters garden, an idea which has captured my imagination, I may decide to plant White Cap Flint Corn. This corn goes under several names such as Narragansett Flint Corn and Rhode Island White Cap Corn. Historically it has been grown by the Narragansett, Wampanoag and Pocasset Indians. It would be an attractive choice for several reasons.

First, I like to grow local heirlooms. The Wampanoags once occupied all of Cape Cod, including my garden site of course, and still have a village on the Cape. I have not yet found out if they still grow this corn but it is fascinating to think this same corn was grown here a few hundred years ago.

The corn is still grown in Rhode Island, where it is stone ground in an old mill and used as an ingredient in Johnny cake. It is reputed to make an especially tasty Johnny cake, which is a popular local food speciality. Sounds yummy to me.

This corn is said to be highly adapted to coastal Southern New England. Apparently this is one of the few places it can successfully be grown. My growing it would contribute to preservation of a vegetable variety which is geographically limited.

Having never grown field corn and never made corn meal, I don't know whether a flint corn is desirable for meal. This one seems to have excellent eating qualities. Would it be difficult to grind or are there other likely drawbacks compared to a dent corn such as Hickory King.

Jim

Jim, I doubt that it would be more difficult to grind and I've heard that the flints make excellent (perhaps the best) cornmeal. Back in the 70s my folks took our family to that mill in Rhode Island I remember we purchased meal there and it was delicious!

Just remember to do everything possible to ensure purity by means of isolation.

George

I've bought that meal too at the little general mercantile which name I dis-remember in that little RI town of name I also can't remember.......

Jim let's stay in touch on source for RI flint - I'd like to try it too. No doubt it was the native maize over here as well. I've done a lot of grinding and I can tell you that generally the harder a grain is the better it grinds because it shatters easily into tiny pieces and doesn't gunk up the works like a soft grain. The dent corn I am grinding now is very soft. I hope it's going to get a lot drier and harder over the winter.

Pat, try toasting (parching) your corn before grinding. I spread some on a cookie tray and heat it at about 300 F. until I smell corn. Then I grind it. This gives me a much finer grind and makes the corn more brittle.

George

Good idea, George, thanks.

Could you describe the mexican method of de-husking in a little more detail, BTW?

Hey Pat,

I wasn't on-line for a little bit. It was time for milking and chores :)

Dehusking? I think that dehusking is kind of like putting one's pants one. Everyone has to do it basically the same way. The only difference which comes to mind is that, at least out in the "rancho" (small homestead) they are usually very careful not to tear the husks apart, so as to be able to use them for making tamales (wrappers).

George

Sorry, I suppose I meant "de-hulling". With the lime and the soaking. Lime-juice?

How many cows are you milking? I was talking to a guy on-line in PA recently who keeps dairy cows, and keeps them fresh on one calf for the whole life of the cow. Sounds incredible I know, but apparently it's the traditional manner in India where he learned of it......

Actually, I milk goats. Presently we have three milkers, two of which are milking. It's the end of the season and they are drying up, especially since they've been bred. Yesterday I put a couple of wheelbarrow loads of goat manure on freshly dug parts of the garden. It's great, about the same as rabbit manure. There's a nice relationship between goats and gardening. The garden gets fertilizer and the goats get weeds, old sweet potato vines, corn stalks, etc.... But if one has goats they better have a GOOD FENCE around the garden. A couple times, this last summer, I had a goat or two get into the garden. They made a bee line for my peanuts and beans. "G" "O" "A" "T" is the special gardeners' terminology equivalent for "W" "M" "D!"

Most everyone I ever observed, in Mexico, used lime in a large pot of boiling water to remove the hulls of corn. I don't recall how long they boiled and stirred it, though vaguely I do remember them determining when it was done by dipping out some kernels and seeing if the hulls would slip off. They measured the lime by the handful. But I don't remember how many handfuls went to a given size pot. Nor do I remember what kind of lime they used, whether natural or the stronger industrial stuff. Somewhere I've heard of indigenous people, in the North, making hominy using wood ash.

They would normally boil the corn in a lime solution. Just stirring seemed to remove many hulls. They would pick the others off by hand. Then they would rinse the corn, removing most of the lime, and run it through a grinder, much like we saw in the Hickory King thread. At that point one could make tortillas with the dough (masa). But some folk would then take that dough and grind it with a stone grinder called a metate (pronounced may-tat-ay). This extra fine dough made the finest, most expensive tortillas. Honestly, I don't believe it was/is possible to sell them and receive what they are worth after all that work. Such is the way with so many home made food items. Hence, in our modern culture, we have been losing some of the finest eating from our normal daily lives.

George

I grow a field corn every year as my main corn crop. We pick ears in the milk stage and use as roasting ears but they are usually boiled. Then the dry corn is ground into meal and grits. I have an old hand grinder(100yo)that is mainly used to crack corn for the chickens but will make a decent course meal. I take most of my corn to a neighbor of ours who has a meadows stone mill run by the PTO of the tractor. It makes a nice fine flour and grits usually 50/50. the grits are just the course meal that has been screened to separate it from the fine flour. The remainder of the corn we make lye hominy out of. I make hominy every few years and can up plenty to last for 2-3years. it was about three years ago I went to make hominy and no one had any lye. I hadn't bought lye in several years since a can could last for several years. I later found out that lye had been pulled from the shelves because it is used in Meth labs. So I used a recipe I found on line to make hominy using lime. It was a disaster and I will not use lime again. It turned out gooey and nasty tasting. I probably did something wrong but either way I like lye hominy. We also make lye soap and mainly use it to wash up the hogs and clean up pots and pans on butchering days. So I had to find some lye and did find a company that sold food grade lye but I had to register to buy it since it is a controlled substance now. But at least we are able to make lye hominy again. I will be making some hominy next week and I will post some pictures of the process for those interested. My grandma use to make it outside in a large wash pot with lye made from filtering oak ashes with well water. The resulting solution was a caustic lye water. We use store bought lye. I take a 10qt stainless steel pot (do not use aluminum will react with the lye). I fill the pot half way then add 4 tablespoons of lye to the water and bring it to a boil. Remove from heat add about 6qts of clean dry corn and let soak for 2-3 hours. Drain and refill with cold water to a few inches below the level of the corn. This is important because the corn rubbing against each other helps remove the skin and germ(black tip) if too much water the corn floats and is harder to clean. Vigorously stir for several minutes then drain. repeat two more times the corn should be nice and white or yellow even colored corn will turn either white or yellow the coloring is in the hull not all the way thru. Refill with cold water this time enough to float the corn and let sit overnight or about 4-6hrs. Then rinse at this point the corn is hominy and can be seasoned and parched or slow cooked till tender and eaten fresh or canned. To parch I spread out on a baking sheet and season with a Cajun season mix then put under the broiler stirring every few minutes till dry and toasted makes a great snack. The only other way we eat hominy is with fresh sausage. I brown 1lb bulk sausage drain off excess fat then add one qt jar of drain hominy and heat thru. makes a great meal or side dish.

I use to only grow a local heirloom yellow or white dent corn till around 2000 then each year since I have tried a different variety. I have grown hickory king white, yellow and red striped. Stubs orange (Sandhill) Tenn. red cob this year which is a white dent I grew for SESE and Johnny Hawk an Upstate of SC heirloom variety from Clemson Univ. heirloom collection, plus a red corn from a local man similar to Bloody butcher.

On the three sister I have planted a three sisters garden twice at my house and the last three years at a historic plantation where I plant an heirloom garden. It has already been mentioned but sweet corns will not work the stalks just fold up. The tall heirloom dents or flints are ideal. I plant similar to Darrel with rows 4ft apart and plants 2.5-3ft apart in the rows. My grandparents always grew some cornfield beans and cornfield peas in the first few rows of the field corns and they always planted a few hills of a tan pumpkin with nice dense bright orange flesh on the outside rows. These beans were not used fresh but as a dry bean and the pumpkins were used when there were the size of softballs as summer squash and stewed with onions or sliced floured and fried. Green pumpkins about the size of a volley ball or smaller were used to make pies and ripe pumpkins in the fall were also used for pies . This variety makes all different sizes and shapes from flat with deep ribs to oblong and typical jack lantern sizes and shapes.

All the old timers around here plant this pumpkin around the outside rows of the corn fields and usually a few rows of cornfield beans. But it is getting rare to find someone planting peas or beans in the corn anymore but many people here do still plant the old timey pie pumpkins as there are called. I have asked several people who still plant pumpkins in the corn why they do it and the response is always because that the way daddy or grandaddy all ways did it. And if ask why don't they plant beans or peas in the corn the answer is it is easier to put them on poles and makes picking the corn easier with out all the vines tangled in there. But pumpkins need the corn to grow. Rodger

Thanks for that explanation, Rodger.

So basically hominy is a way of tenderizing the kernals after they are fully mature, I gather. After that they could be boiled and eaten as a side dish vegetable or canned for the same purpose later as you describe, or mashed and kneaded into a dough as the mexicans do.

I have been boiling some of the kernals from the most palatable-looking ears once and just eating them like that. Somewhat tough going but good with shell beans and butter.

It seems to me that if one has a grinder it's not really worth going to the trouble of making hominy to make dough from. Parching the corn like George described and then grinding is simple and not messy, for a more typical meal, or even grinding the un-parched corn makes a super-soft meal that gives a really chewy cornbread rather than crumbly. More of a "spoon-bread".

Another question for you experts: how long do you leave the ears on the plant? I've read that some people leave the southern dents on until after frost. That could mean until january in the deep south. Apparently it grinds better after having been frozen.

I assume that if there is any green in the husk whatsoever it needs to sit longer, at a minimum?

The link below gives instructions for making hominy using baking soda, which is alkaline too, but not nearly so strong as lye, or even lime. I seriously doubt the result will be as good as Rodger's method but, if you wanted to experiment just for the heck of it, you probably already have the soda in your cupboard.

It's such a pleasure to have guys like Rodger, Darrel and George who are the real deal and can answer our questions from their personal knowledge. That is irreplacable. I had been hoping Rodger would chime in here, and he didn't disappoint!

Jim

Here is a link that might be useful: Baking Soda Method Hominy

Again, Rodger gave you his opinion of hominy made with lime, so don't blame me if this doesn't turn out well, but FWIW here is a link to instructions for making hominy with slaked lime.

More importantly if gives precise instructions for making masa for tortillas or tamales. I've always made those from "instant" masa harina.

Jim

Here is a link that might be useful: Lime Method Hominy/Nixtimal

Rodger! That pumpkin you mention... it reminds me of my favorite squash which I picked up in the 80s in Indiana. I've grown it ever since. Originally I got it from an older gentleman who had a pick up truck load full. He'd been growing them from more than 30 years and didn't have a name for them. But he gave me one. I got my first seed all from that one squash. But for years I had all different shapes: some were like large butternuts, some were like small round pie pumpkins and a few came out almost like a cheese pumpkin. For over a decade I carried the seed with me (NJ and then in Mexico) and hand pollinated, always selecting for the round forms. Eventually I achieved that selection. But in doing so I forgot to maintain the original mix.

I was fortunate that I'd sent seed to a friend in Tulsa, from the very first seed I received, and he had grown it; freezing some in 1986. I was able to get some frozen seed from him in 2003 and bingo! I got back all those original shapes. So now I have two strains. I wonder if this might not be the same old squash you mention?

I'm encouraged that you consider the coarser ground stuff to be grits. That's how I've done my grits for over ten years now. That is all GREAT information!

George

Here is a link that might be useful: Warsaw Round

George, the pumpkin I grow could be the same, I haven't had any shaped like the butternut but it makes about every other size and shape. The rind is a flesh colored and the inside is orange and dense. What is really unique is making pies with inmature green pumpkins and that is the preferred way to use them instead of with the ripe pumpkins. I do not know what species it is. I do know it is not Pepo because it is grown with other summer squashes and doesnt' cross. If I really wanted to know I could compare seeds to find out.
PnBrown, yes the lye is a method of softening the hull on the hard flint and dent corns. When I was looking for alternative methods to making hominy a couple of years ago I can across some interseting reading but I can't seem to find the link anymore. But if you google seach hominy you can find the same info. But in the early 20th century the south was plagued with malnutrition. Soldiers in WW1 from the south recoverd from nutritional deficies and doctors attributed this to a better diet rich in Wheat vice the diet of the south which was corn based. In the 20-30s research scientists ask the question why native americans never suffered this nutrient deficency and even before the 1900s white and black southerns never had this deficiency and it was found that making hominy grits and flours was replaced by modern stone mills which could grind the corn and didn't require the labor intensive soaking in lye to soften the hulls. Further research found that the process of soaking the corn in lye not only help soften the hull but chenically altered the starch making the nutrients ( Niacin and other vitamins) availble to the body. When the corn is ground and not soak in lye these nutrients are not availble to the body. So in the 19th centuries and earlier the making of hominy improved the nutrional value of corn. The fix was to add niacin and other vitamins to wheat flour and a big push for white bread in the south, which started the phrase" best thing to sliced bread" and today there is no need to soak corn since we have so much more vitamins availble due to enriched flours and grains. The only way making hominy survived is making whole kernal hominy as I do and no one makes true hominy grits or flour any more it is not worth the time and effort. Rodger

Pnbrown, on how long to leave the corn on the stalks, I will give you my experiences. Older varieties of corn have very thick and tight husks making them less susceptable to damage by crows and by catapilers and also weavils. Newer field corns have thinner husks and less husk and are far more susceptable to insect damage.
Soap Box
" So if you want to use chemicals grow newer hybrids if want a more natural approach and better taste plant heirlooms"
off soap box
Back to the jist of this message. Corn was left in the field till after a killing frost this help cut down on weavil infestation in storage after the corn was husked. But i pick the corn just as soon as the husks are dry then husk and shell the corn allow to air dry with a fan for a week or so then put in the freezer to insure no grain moths or weavils in the corn. I have picked corn when the husks still had some green in them to keep from loosing the corn to racoons.Then I husk and place the corn on the cobb in bread racks with a box fan blowing on it till dry enough to shell.
A natural method to deter coons is to remove said coon from the "hav a hart" live trap, clean and dress then boil for 45 minutes in salted water, rinse and baked at 350 with fresh herbs sweetpotatoes and onions. Makes a tasty meal with a side of hominy and sausage, peas (southern type) and fresh cornbread with cracklings for added flavor and texture. ummmm ummm thats good.

Well, that is very interesting, Rodger - thanks again.

Seems I made the exact same simplistic presumption that the white settlers (or "invaders", as they are referred to in an Indian website I just looked at) made. Why bother with such a laborious process if one has a mechanized grinder? Pellegra, is the answer. Though probably none of us here are living off corn as our only grain, but it would be a significant issue in a subsistence situation since as we know corn is by far the most practical grain for the home gardener.

The website I mentioned says hominy can be made simply by boiling oak ashes in water and then letting sit overnight before boiling the corn. Oak ash is one thing I have no shortage of, so I reckon I'll try it that way. And apparently the "hominized" kernels can be dried again afterwards for storage, rather than canned.

Not sure if your recipe "deters" coons or not, Rodger, but it does "remove" them one at a time...........

I consider that a good, all natural philosophy of pest control. Don't get frustrated... eat your problems! Back when we lived in NJ we had a huge squirrel population. The little buggers used to raid the garden all the time, even carrying tomatoes up trees to eat them. I settled on an "amicable" solution. I tolerated them (somewhat) but for some months I harvested squirrels and we had squirrel on Mondays. Worked out fine.

George

>>"A natural method to deter coons is to remove said coon from the "hav a hart" live trap, clean and dress then boil for 45 minutes in salted water, rinse and baked at 350 with fresh herbs sweet potatoes and onions. Makes a tasty meal with a side of hominy and sausage, peas (southern type) and fresh cornbread with cracklings for added flavor and texture. ummmm ummm thats good."

So I made hominy yesterday. A native-american website I found uses a method of simply boiling corn and wood-ash together, which appealed with its simplicity. Next time I'll sift the ash first to get out the charcoal and nails and what-not. I tried some of the cleaned and re-boiled corn as a side-dish and while it was edible and digestible, I don't think we'll be eating it that way. I mashed some while soft in the grinder to make a dough, that was quite good when fried. The rest I'm going to air-dry and then see how it grinds for grits. Maybe it will have to be parched in the oven.

I can see how for very impoverished people - such as southerners after the civil war or some africans today - the extra step of making hominy would be unaffordable, just in fuel. A lot of heat is required for all that boiling. If there was another task that could be achieved with the hot ash-water it would be better. Soap making, perhaps?

This has been an exceptionally educational thread. I intend to try making cornmeal, but I don't see me trying the hominy even though I love grits. (too many opportunities to err)

Is anyone aware of an equally educational thread dedicated to popcorn? I searched and found 835 popcorn threads, but most are about a variety of rose with popcorn in its name.

Any ideas on storing corn/popcorn would be helpful too.

Don't know much about popcorn, though with the amounts my wife and kids eat I should certainly be growing it. Let us know what you learn.

Anson Mills puts out a very informational newsletter regarding grains. The latest one mentions that "new" grains mill and taste different from older, drier grain. New (within 4 months of harvest) is softer and obviously fresher. Commercially available grain is probably much older, and has been dried in hot-air blowers. Most of my corn is still quite soft, and it occurs to me that the reason for the hominy processing may not exist at that stage. It is probably naturally more digestible than when older and harder, even if it does not shell nor mill as easily.

I suspect that storing popcorn is much like storing regular corn. Make sure that it is good and dry, freeze the kernels for about two days (in an airtight container), to ensure that no weevil eggs have survived in them, warm the corn thoroughly before taking it out of the airtight bag or jar, and store it. I'd recommend storing it in sealed jars or plastic bags, away from heat.

I still have to shell our harvest of Cherokee Squaw corn. Will post a picture of the kernels and/or of the resulting cornbread, when I do.

George

The info several of you have given is fascinating. I know little about using corn other than as fresh sweet corn. I grew quite a bit of "fall decorative" corn (actual variety unknown although I'm quite sure it isn't a sweet corn). Can this be ground for cornbread? Could it be used for hominy? The hominy making process sounds like an interesting experiment but probably not something I would do very often.

Your decorative corn should work just fine for anything we've discussed above. Give it a try. Afterwards let us know what you think.

George

I made cornbread again today from the straight-off-the-cob grain, not hominized or parched, just ground and into the pan. Just to compare with that made from boiled, hulled, and re-dried kernels. The new, poorly dried corn is slow and gummy in the mill, but there is simply no comparison in texture and flavor in the finished product. It's so far beyond anything I've had before, even from other corn on the ear I've bought from farmers and ground myself right off the cob. It's like freshly-made home-brewed brazilian expresso compared to old 7-eleven coffee that's been sitting around in the pot and made from swill to start with.

Anyway, the flavor of hominy meal is not impressive. The process is tiresome. So unless and until corn is our only grain and pellegra be a remote possibility, it'll be fresh new grain for us!

Wow, now I'm going to have to try that experiment! I haven't ground corn, without parching, for well over a decade.

Hominy meal would not taste like cornmeal meal. It would taste like tortilla dough. That's why tortillas taste so different from corn bread. Years ago, when we were in our first five year stint in Mexico, I got the bright idea of making cornbread using "Minsa," tortilla flour, which, if it is mainly corn, would have gone through the lime/ hominy treatment. It was okay, but not like the real thing. We made the mistake of inviting some friends over, originally from Alabama, and serving them our "corn bread." With this one gesture I think we increased their distrust of Yankees significantly (at least of Yankee judgment)!

George

Even mexican masa harina is really quite processed when you think about it. There's got to be some flavor lost, compared to grabbing some corn out of the crib and running it through the grinder five minutes before putting the pan in the oven.

I suspect that most cornmeal that one would buy in the store is nixtamalized also, unless a gourmet type might not be. I read that virtually all commercial corn products - chips, taco shells, tortillas, cornmeal, whatever, are nixtamalized. Though this supposedly improves absorption of certain nutrients, no doubt it eliminates others not to mention a lot of flavor.

I think the main thing about bought products is that the grain is so old before processing (likely more than a year) and then who knows how long it sits packaged after processing by the time it hits the table.

Well, harvest is over. It was a very small amount, I had pest troubles and bad wind troubles that knocked down my corn (and I planted too few). We got a couple of meals out of the sweet and last night I made a blue corn bread from freshly ground blue corn and wheat kernels (purchased) with my new Corona mill! Wow, was that delicious. Amazing if you have never tasted bread from freshly milled grains. I am very happy about the grain mill (it also gives me a nice upper body work out) My only complaint is that I want more blue cornbread!

I purposely planted sweet silver and blue corn together (Hopi blue) just to see the extent of the hybridization. They were right next to each other and the only thing I could tell is that the blue seemed to have lost some pest resistance, they were shorter and smaller, and some of the white turned less sweet and the rows or corn kernels on the cob were looking less aligned. Some of the blue looked mixed white and blue but tasted like blue (not sweet). Interesting, but next time I want the blue alone!

I have plenty of seed to grow blue corn again. I have a shopping list for Sandhill preservation but they do not ship yet. I will get the ones with the strong stalks that are wind resistant, but our winds are a problem mostly in the fall, so I can plant my blue seed in the spring (separate them more this time...)

I am pretty sure some of you must know this, and I have a couple of questions:

1. What is the effect of shorter vs longer day light hours on the growth of corn? is it normal that fall crops are smaller? (my spring crop was so much more plentiful) is that something I should expect in the future?

2. How early can I plant again? would it be too crazy to plant on the winter solstice (the days will get longer) or in January? (for reference last year I planted February 2). Can corn handle a little freeze from time to time? Can you all tell I want more blue corn bread?

Hey Cabrita,

Corn tends to grow taller when the days are longer. Different varieties are affected by day length to a different degree. I've heard, for instance, that Hopi Blue (Flour) corn normally only reaches about 4' in height where it is native. But when grown in the North, it often tops 7'. I grew that corn at the 20th parallel, in Hidalgo, Mexico; and it was only about 3' tall.

Also, I've noticed that my earlier plantings produce better. In part, I suspect that this is related to moisture. Our earlier plantings get really established before drought hits. But it also has something to do with day length. I planted a really late planting of Mesquakie Indian Corn this summer (past the middle of July). There were enough warm days to mature seed. But the ears were much smaller and not as well filled out, and this, in spite of very good moisture. In the future I won't plant past June 23rd, and I will adjust that date according to what I observe at harvest time.

When we lived in Mexico we had frost free weather from around the 12th of February until the 1st of November. Locals planted their corn as early as they could, usually in February. I did see some plant in March, and maybe slightly into April, but not after that. That was at the 20th parallel, and using locally adapted corn. You're probably going to have to experiment. Though, if you have farming in your area, it's possible that your extension agent can help.

I know some who plant their corn a couple weeks before the last frost date. I wouldn't even begin to recommend that with sweet corn, as it is less vigorous. Here in OK, I don't plant until after our last project frost. That's because our weather is too crazy. It fluctuates A LOT. Once corn is up, it is prone to frost.

Hope this helps!

Pat, I don't know what to think about your theory on nixtamalizing all corn products commercially. It's been my understanding that nixtamalized corn has a very different flavor than non-nixtamalized corn. That's why our friends from Alabama reacted so negatively to my minsa cornbread.

George

MacMex, have you shelled your Cherokee squaw corn yet? Hoping to see photos.

Grits can be either hominy grits or simply coursely ground corn. How course? It's a matter of personal preference. Corn meal, on the other hand, is never made from hominy. That's where George erred when he had that unfortunate experience with his corn bread.

Incidentally, I often see comments by Southerners expressing a strong preference for plain grits over hominy grits. They take these things seriously in the South.

Nixtamalization is done with very specific products for specific reasons. It is used only in making hominy, hominy grits, masa and masa harina to the best of my knowledge. But there are certainly those with more knowledge than mine. Maybe an expert or two will chime in.

Keep in mind that there are regional variations in terminology which sometimes leads to contradictory usages.

The link below has beautiful photography and some information on the topic.

Jim

Here is a link that might be useful: South Carolina Grits

Holtzclaw; In by gone times, I grew popcorn for local Drive-In theaters (South American Dynamite). This thread is getting long,so if you want to discuss popcorn, which also makes great cornmeal, start a dedicated thread.
In the old days, there was a stone, waterpowered gristmill in every community. Taking corn to the mill every month was a social event. So this thread is quite interesting.

There are several millponds hereabouts and even the mill-houses, but the stones and flumes are long gone of course.

George, that was something I read - I believe on the wikepedia entry for nixtamalize. I don't know if it's true. We could check the websites of major food processors.

I find it hard to believe that the amerindians or the colonists thrived on hominy corn - nixtamalized corn used in various ways - as their staple food. Perhaps it was only a staple when other local foods were scarce. There are accounts, which I read about in Scott Nearing's maple sugar handbook of Indians and settlers surviving famine by eating nothing but maple sugar. In normal times maple sugar would be a relatively small part of an indigenous diet, probably the same with corn.

Thanks for all the information George! I think I better cool my jets and stick to my early feb date for spring corn. Today it got to 90F but it does freeze here too.

You are right about the plant heights, the fall ones were only about 5-6 feet, the spring ones grew to 12 - 13 feet. I planted them too close together too. My 3 sisters garden did not quite work, but I did get squash and corn.

Whew! I was actually about to make some cornbread, out of Cherokee Squaw Corn, for a church social, yesterday afternoon, when I received a distress call from my wife and daughter. They were an hour an a half away, with two horses, the trailer and a broken down Suburban. So... no corn bread, no church social.... We were out till very late and had to make do with anything we could find, finally eating at Sonic (burger place). I think I'll get over it before today is over (the burger and fries, that is)!

Pat, I'm sure I tried real corn "masa" made from nixtamalized corn, when we lived in Mexico. It still had that tortilla flavor and not the real corn bread taste we wanted. But I'll reserve judgment. Who knows?

Farmerdilla, you know, COMMUNITY is something we really lack today. I think we'd be better off if folks had to go to a community mill, every week or two. Tahlequah is better than many places I've lived. I absolutely LOVE our local farmers' co-op. Now that's community and those are great folks!

Well, I had these pictures ready to go yesterday, but couldn't upload them. Here is a picture of Cherokee Squaw kernels in a dish.

And here's the resulting flour. I ground this without parching. I'll post a picture of the corn bread, when I can. This afternoon I have to work on a Suburban and try to retrieve some horses....

I have to say that the picture doesn't really capture the tint of the cornmeal. It's a very very light blue/grey. I don't know if the resulting cornbread will show any blue or not. Also, we were quite impressed with the ease of shelling of this corn. Compared to Mesquakie Indian, this is super easy. Given that the majority of our neighbors, and many friends are Cherokee, I think I'm going to plant significantly more of Cherokee Squaw. Some here have never seen this corn, though they've heard of it. Some have seen it, but no longer grow it. And... I'm positive that a very few grow it and don't tell.

George

Looks real nice, George. Just hope you don't get any of that flaking lead paint in it! It would be great if you can influence your neighbors to eat more fresh and local food in general.

Here is an interesting link to a patent which indicates that likely most corn chips are made from nixtamalized flour:

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6764699/description.html

Good point about corn chips, Pat. In my post I wasn't thinking about the products such as tortillas, corn chips (fried tortillas) and tamales, which are made from masa. Of course the only use for masa is to make other products. It is not a finished food. So, most of us eat nixtamalized corn quite frequently, in one form or another.

I suspect Fritos are made from corn meal, not tortillas. They are thicker than regular corn chips and seem to taste different.

Incidentally, out of curiousity about Quaker Quick Grits, a product I've used a lot of over the years, I Googled the Quaker site. Turns out that those grits are neither nixtamalized nor simple ground corn. The hulls are removed by a steaming process, sort of a non-chemical nixtamalization. That was interesting to me because I knew they were different from the plain grits I have used and I had assumed they were hominy grits. Nope. They're not. I wonder if other products are made from corn processed that way. Corn chips, maybe? That would blow my theory about how often we eat nixtamalized corn.

George, you make an excellent point about community. The town I live in is small and we take all our trash to the dump, which functions socially somewhat like those old time mills. Everyone in town needs to visit the dump periodically and you often see friends and acquaintances there. One town nearby even has a dump dance each autumn after the departure of the summer visitors. Our dump had a "gift house" for many years where one could leave items for others to take which were unwanted but too good to throw away. I hear the gift house will be reopened eventually. I hope so.

We have a farmer's market and a community garden too. Also, we still have town meeting style government. It's a pretty good place to live.

Jim

Thought I'd try cooking with the decorative corn I had. I tried grinding a small amount in a coffee bean grinder I had. That worked....for about 15 seconds. I'm hoping I can fix the grinder to use with coffee again :) So the Corona mill is probably going on my Christmas list. A few questions, though.

How long does it take to grind enough corn for a batch of cornbread?

How long does it take to assemble, disassemble, clean and dry the grinder?

How much of an upper body work out is it? If I'm only doing a few cups of corn at a time will I be able to handle it?

Have you been able to purchase mills locally or have you always had to order them? If locally, what kind of store were they at?

Can you grind corn in an electric blender? (Maybe I shoudn't even ask...I don't need another broken appliance)

For now the corn will stay out as decorations. But once Thanksgiving is over I'll try again.

Well, much depends on the size of the "batch" and one's physical condition, of course. And the fineness of the grind. You can make it easier by double-grinding, first cracking the grain and then running it through again at a finer setting (the Corona is really designed to be a "cracker" rather than a flour-maker). I would think a person of average strength and stamina could grind enough for a big pan of cornbread in under five minutes, though. Maybe ten if you need to catch your breath a lot.

Unless you've got a vita-mix, grinding in a blender is probably not a good idea.

And, I would add, that Vita-mix would need a special attachment for grinding. We have one, without the attachment, and it's no good to try to grind meal in it.

Naturegirl, we purchased our first Corona (which really had the name "Corona" on it), back in 1981, in Ohio, at a specialty cookware store. It was expensive ($40 back then). But it worked. At the time we purchased it, we were told that stone plates could be specially ordered for it. We never did that; mainly since we couldn't afford it.

I set up our current grinder: which is basically the same thing, only generic and from Mexico; on a wooden work bench in our out door shop. This is because we found it hard to really get the thing clamped down firmly, yet in a way which wouldn't harm our table, in the house. I clamped it real well, on the work bench. Then, using screw holes already in the base, I screwed it down also. It works beautifully this way. But I am NOT going to take it down between uses! I don't disassemble it either. I simply put a plastic bag over the hopper, when not in use, to keep out foreign material. One of our daughters will occasionally use it to make a custom feed for one of our animals. So, if in doubt, I run just a little corn through it, throwing the meal into a feed bin with the chicken feed, before I grind for our own use.

I agree with Pat, I can do enough corn meal for a loaf of corn bread, in very little time. Normally I grind up just under a quart of corn at a time. That way I can make corn bread or use the meal in my sourdough, for several weeks.

Here is one possible source, Lehman's. Lehman's is sometimes a bit pricey, but they usually have whatever the modern homesteader might want. They sell quality stuff too. The link below is to Lehman's guide to choosing a grinder. I looked at the Victoria Grinder, which seemed very similar to what we presently own and use. Cost was about $45.

George

Here is a link that might be useful: Lehman's on Choosing a grinder

I thought I was to search for an existing forum on my topic of interest, before duplicating threads. It's just with 800+ search results for "popcorn", I was requesting help.

MacMex and others have answered my questions well. Also thanks for sharing the Cherokee squaw corn photos. I wonder if it's anything the Cherokee ever heard of or just a nice sounding name. Also, thanks for farmerdilla's suggestion of South American Dynamite popcorn.

I figured any suggestions for drying/keeping popcorn would be helpful for those growing corn as well. Right now I use Sevin dust to "protect" ornamental corn I am using for seed. I needed to know how to keep insects and rodents out of say 100 ears of corn I intend for consumption, while letting it dry properly and not ferment or pop or sprout, without having to carry it around in the backseat of my securely locked car.

I'm positive that Cherokee Squaw is authentic. But Cherokee don't call it that. They call it "Squaw Corn." I spoke with a Cherokee friend who really lit up when I asked him about it. He described it to a T, commenting that his family had raised it for generations. He worked for a while, as a trooper in this area, getting to know a lot of people. So, when we spoke about this corn he commented that there are people within 5 miles of me who are growing it. I sent off to a fellow at University of Oklahoma, to get my seed!

I'm sorry, I didn't answer about how to store corn. I somehow thought I had. I'd dry it, seal it in something air tight and freeze it for at least two days. Then, just store it at room temperature or cooler, in something which rodents cannot chew through. That should do it. I've heard of people planting 20 year old corn, stored in their closet, and it grew! You are correct. This information is good for any corn.

George

Nature girl I am female and small (5 feet, 105 lbs). I am in good shape but not super strong. I have a brand new Corona mill. If you go to the conversations above I asked the group if they could recommend a grain mill? then I pasted a link from the one I found. I bought that exact same one (from that site in Alabama), it arrived soon afterwards (not much delay) and the shipping was not as bad as I figured. The mill looks like it can be used problem free for the next one hundred years (no kidding).

I made one corn bread one evening, and the next day I could not stay away from my new toy so I had to bake another bread. Of course I was out of corn, so I ground up barley, buckwheat, and a lots of wheat. I also used regular white flour to make it less heavy. I made 4 loaves. Let's say every cup of grain is about the equivalent of one of those upper body machines at the gym, but just two sets. Also, you do not have to pay to grind your grain! OK seriously, George gave you very good advice, and we did notice the same thing. Best results, start coarse and grind at least twice, I think I will do 3 times on my next bread. I started grinding the whole grains on the finest setting and that was really hard (but doable). I like the fact that there is not much heating during grinding. Oh yes, the breads came out so delicious! big difference from fresh ground to store bought.

So in any case, if I was going to go into a baking business, the grinding would be too much, but to make breads just for my (small) family, it is fine. I also had trouble with the table not being strong enough (it walked on me), so I will attach it to a work bench too, or something like that. I want to leave mine out as well, I like the way it looks too ;-)

This thread is bringing up some memories I didn't know I had. I'm remembering a hand cranked grinder that was mounted on the enamel board at the far side of our Housier cabinet. That way it was out of the way. I only remember it being used once and that was for some kind of fruit. The reason I remember is because I ate the peelings and Mom thought that was nasty. I know that when Mom sold everything that didn't look modern to her, the grinder had been so securely mounted onto the enamel, that a crank pencil sharpener had to be put there to hide the damage. For a child, it was a fabulous toy, even its box of attachments we never used. (Seems now that ground crayons ended that era.)
Mom's people are Cherokee and thus my fascination, but she grew up in a time when she associated a lot of shame with her background. That hindered almost all knowledge from being passed down. Also, Dad was the farmer, so I learned his way of gardening and he actually taught her about canning and such. Mom is a fabulous cook, but all I knew of her folks' cooking was that everything was smothered in meat renderings (bacon drippings) at the beginning of cooking and again every time an aunt or grandmother came into the kitchen. Green beans, poke salat, okra, whatever, was cooked until it was more black than green.
We're Eastern Band, and as far as I can tell, all the Cherokee around here had already taken up Southern colonial living by the time of the removal. A famous chief who lived near here even had African slaves. It would be hard to say what customs/foods were Cherokee and which were not.

There are some, even on Gardenweb, who know a great deal about early Cherokee foods, etc. Blueflint is one of them. We are getting to have more and more Cherokee friends, here in Tahlequah. Some are really into historical studies. My wife and daughters are learning, from a Cherokee friend, how to work wool and spin. My wife asked that I get her "some sheep" for Christmas!

Here are two pictures of cornbread made from Cherokee Squaw corn. I noticed, this morning, that my cornmeal has lost most of its blue tint.

Pat, that wasn't flaking paint (up above). I hope it's not acrylic, not lead. That's damage, on our window sill, due to our dogs leaning there to look out the window.

George

Holtzclaw,if you would like to try growing Cherokee Striped Cornfield pole bean, which came from a Cherokee family in Eastern TN, e-mail me your address.

The wife and I finished dehusking and shelling the last of our Cherokee Squaw Corn last night. We're impressed with how much actual corn we got from a relatively small planting. I think I only managed to get in about 229 plants. In the future I won't go below 300 or 400. Indeed, we decided last night, that half of our 2009 corn planting will be Cherokee Squaw.

Some ears are short and fat. Some are long. Most have a red cob. But some have a white cob. I didn't realize how different dry corn varieties can be aside from color. I suspect that Mesquakie Indian has a lot more flint characteristics than Cherokee Squaw. Shelling Cherokee Squaw we both kept commenting how much easier it was than Mesquakie Indian. The kernels are much looser in the cob. Also, we like to shell with our hands. We noticed that the Cherokee Squaw kernels have a much larger, deeper dent; and that our thumbs didn't get raw shelling it.

Just an additional observation.

George

Easy-shelling is a nice characteristic. I like shelling by hand too. Speaking of variation within a variety, I notice that one ear can have much looser kernels than another. Also some ears have bigger kernels, and those tend to be the easier ones. I think in this case the difference is that the ears from stalks that blew over in early september did not get as mature or as dry, and so do not shell as easily and probably have less food-value per ear also.

We had some stalks lodge. But all continued to mature. ANY Cherokee Squaw ear was easier to shell than any Mesquakie Indian ear. Most of the time, with the Cherokee Squaw corn, the kernels looked very well filled out. They're just shaped differently. It will be interesting to compare these two over time. I would have said that Cherokee Squaw is more prone to lodging than Mesquakie Indian. But this year, for the first time, I had some lodging with Mesquakie Indian as well!

Ooooh, I gotta get a Corona mill! I'm all about finding hand-powered appliances. Make ya real hungry for yer food!

Reminds me of Japanese noodles: the best restaurants for soba (buckwheat) noodles in Japan grind the buckwheat to order and then make the noodles from scratch right there. When you order, your soba noodles are still in whole grain kernels, unground. Talk about fresh! The flavor is unparalleled!

Also another use: dried fruit & veggie powders. When you dehydrate a fruit sufficiently to be able to grind it into a powder, it does amazing things! Tomato pastry dough (dried tomatoes added ground to the flour), apple powder added to oatmeal, papaya powder sprinkled over ice cream... YUM!

Also, freshly ground almonds mixed half and half with grain flour really ups the flavor and protein content of breads and cookies.

@George - I'm loving your descriptions of Cherokee Squaw. Being a Cherokee/Creek/Euro mutt, I'm all about doing a 3 sisters garden, and I'd love to have such a delightful corn! Besides, I'm a Southern Gal in Los Angeles, and grits just ain't available out here! I'd love to grow my own instead of adding food miles having tons of corn shipped. Mmmmm, and blue grits... Any chance I could talk you out of a few grains so I can get my own seed started? Just ten or twelve kernels would be fabulous! Can I trade you summat?

-----Jenna

Jenna, drop me an e-mail (via my member's page) and give me your e-mail.

Cherokee and Creek are two out of the five civilized tribes. We have plenty of Creek around here. "Muskogee" is what they often call themselves. The Cherokee have something like 400 years of contact with European culture under their belts. It's my understanding that the Cherokee consider a person to be Cherokee if they can document that they have a "single drop" of Cherokee blood.

George

Heh... I have more than a drop of both types of blood. Does that make me Cherokogee? ;)

Seriously, though, thanks for the fabulous thread. I'm gonna go read part one. I've learned so much already!

-----Jenna

Well, I forgot to mention it. But I have ground corn, straight, without parching and made corn bread with the meal. It's different than when parched. The grind is a bit more coarse. But it is good. We'll try it for a while before making a final decision on whether to parch or not. Pat, thanks for the idea. I hadn't thought to try that since I very first started grinding my own corn.

George

De nada, George.

I've been having cornbread about every other day. Today I made it with cheddar cheese baked in. That was good. I wonder when I'll have to start worrying about getting pellegra?

you'll get pellagra when you quit taking your vitamins.

I need to get one of those handy grinders. I've wanted to make my own corn meal for years but just never made the plunge.

DarJones - who grows several long rows of corn each year.

Cabrita, after finding this thread I suspect that the dark red corns I sent you were Mesquakie Indian Corn. I also had yellow and black ears, deep red with some dark red kernels, and lighter orange-red with dark red kernels. In fact the ears I collected seed from looked very much like Georges first photo up there. So if next summer some of those red corns turn out yellow and black, you will know for sure that it is Mesquakie Indian Corn.

George, when you are ready to try the Ma Williams/Goose bean, I'll trade you for some Cherokee Squaw Corn!

Alright Andy! How you tempt me! Let's correspond privately on this.

Did you purchase Mesquakie Indian from Sandhill Preservation? I don't recall sending you seed for that one.

Did you grow out the Warsaw Buff Pie Pumpkin seed that I sent? How did that do for you?

We're enjoying corn bread on a regular basis now. I'm also getting the area ready for planting corn next spring.

You folks who live in the North don't realize what a curse you're missing. Bermuda grass is scary fast growing and it overruns almost everything. These cold months, which by the way, until the end of this month or the first of January are still mild enough for cultivation, are my favorite for weeding and cultivating. The Bermuda is dormant and I have a chance to get ahead.

Corn is one of the few things I can plant which actually out completes Bermuda. Wherever I grow corn, the Bermuda is much less problematic in the following year.

George
kg8da(at)juno.com

George, you got mail. You won't regret trying the Ma/Goose bean!

I wonder if your Warsaw Buff Pie Pumpkin is related to the tan pumpkins Rodger used to grow?

You folks who live in the North don't realize what a curse you're missing. Really? Is that grass as bad as a Wisconsin winter? Can't melt snow with Roundup!

until the end of this month or the first of January are still mild enough for cultivation We had an ice storm Monday, snow storm yesterday, and it might rain and freeze again this weekend. I might be willing to risk Bermuda grass in exchange for all that! :)

Seriously, the Bermuda grass might be a godsend in terms of preventing erosion, it might be the only thing holding the soil down now that the native prairie plants are mostly gone. Though that isn't much comfort when you are fighting it in the garden, I know.

Ranchers love Bermuda. They even FERTILIZE it! But it is rough on gardening. Okay, you've got a point about the ice and snow. I remember in Northern Indiana, when we lived there, how old that ice and snow could get. Still, in the North, weeds are positively wimpy compared to what the South has to deal with.

The Warsaw Buff Pie Pumpkin could be closely related to Rodger's pumpkin. One would have to grow the two in order to compare. (And hand pollinate to preserve pure seed). I sure wish I had more background on it. Northern Indiana, where I got the original seed, seemed to be an area which had plenty of people from the Appalachians.

"You won't regret trying the Ma/Goose bean!"
Shhh!!! Zeedman will never let me live this down!

George

Happyday, so do you think I can use the red corn to support beans in a 3 sister garden? I think the blue corn I sent would work for that, but planted farther apart than I did. You sent several red ones in different shades. It should be very interesting to see what grows. I also had my sowing time wrong, I planted in April, not February. I now have enough corn varieties, but not enough land!...LOL

Is bermuda grass also called crab grass? it pops up out of nowhere, you pull on it and it keeps coming up? then it sprouts up again several feet away? We pull all grass out (and call it a weed) nice to know corn will overpower it....Zea Mays coming to the rescue.....

Cabrita, the corn I found did have long, strong stalks attached, so maybe it will support beans. Let us know how it turns out next year, ok? Also if it is good to eat!

George, do you have black swallowwort in your area? It's like trying to eliminate nuclear waste. I also found an overlooked redroot pigweed that was 8 feet tall and needed a chainsaw to cut down, not so wimpy as you might think! :)

Cabrita, crab grass isn't the same as Bermuda. There is an invisible line, North of here, somewhere in Southern Missouri, where Bermuda no longer thrives and other grasses predominate. Somewhere to the North of that point, there is no Bermuda grass, as it freezes out. When we lived in Hidalgo Mexico we had Bermuda grass. But because of the relatively cool nights it didn't behave like such a terrible weed. Bermuda needs HEAT to prosper. When it gets HEAT it grows with amazing rapidity. I literally lose tools, which I leave in place (with all intentions of picking them up "tomorrow.") The Bermuda swallows them!

Happyday, we had Black Swallow Wort in NJ. I agree it's not nice and I surely wouldn't want to face fields of it. But you would have to live in the South to understand the way things like Bermuda and Johnson grass grow. I've gardened in NJ, IL, OH, IN, South TX, OK and two states in the Republic of Mexico. I've never seen anything like Bermuda. But properly timed, a vigorous variety of corn can out compete it.

I like cultivating during the cool/cold season because Bermuda is hibernating. I can KILL it while it sleeps... "THERE TAKE THAT!!!" To kill it I have to lift it, roots and all, from the soil and stash it above ground where it will dry out real well. It is amazing how every little root or stolon left springs back to life once night time temps reach 60 F.

George

Are ya'll talking about bermuda or bahia? In florida of my experience, bahia is the naturalized pasture grass that can't be stopped; bermuda is a coddled lawn grass that can't live without constant irrigation.

Bahia (Paspulum notation) is a tough drought resistant southern grass. It spreds mostly by seeds and does not have long underground stolens. No problem to control in a cultivated field

Bermudagrass/Devilsgrass/Wiregrass (Cynodon dactylon)in all its forms grows with both above ground and under ground stolens. Usually planted by setting pieces of the stolen (plugging)The underground stolens are very tough and flexible ( like wire). They push through potatoes etc and even push up through asphalt drive ways. Each little piece of those stolens are viable, making it close to impossible to eradicate. They can run 4-6 feet a year.While some of more modern forms can be useful, Coastal for hay and forage, lawn cultivars etc., The naturalized form (wild Bermuda) is a pain.

Thank you Farmerdilla! I'm sure that varieties differ in vigor. This I know, Bermuda will still thrive if one cuts it right to the ground. The roots are probably more than half the plant and can travel 4-6 feet before popping up again.

I had a chat with our local extension agent. He mentioned that the one thing Bermuda doesn't handle well is being shaded/crowded. This is what both corn and cowpeas do.

In this region, probably because of Bermuda, most clean gardens I've seen are weeded by Roundup.

George
Tahlequah, OK

I am not sure what some of those 'evil' grasses are, I will take a picture when it pops up but now things are a little more subdued around here. My cilantro is popping up like it thinks it is a weed, same with parsley. I love those types of grasses! (not really grasses but corn is a grass right?)

Happyday, thanks for the stalk information. I also ordered some seed from Victory seeds, so now I have 4 types of corn, your red ones (I know it is more than one type though) my blue one, and we bought Hickory king and yellow bantam seeds because my partner likes sweet corn. I think we can do 3 sister gardens with the blue, red, and Hickory king, but not the yellow bantam. We will just grow cucumbers as mulch for that latter one.

OK but if I was in So.Cal I would be growing avocado, almonds, cherimoya, mango, chocolate cacao, coffee, figs, jackfruit, pineapple, guava, lychee, sapote, kiwi, loquat, ice cream bean, etc. etc.

You are so lucky to be in a warm climate!

Here is a link that might be useful: Welcome to the Website of the California Rare Fruit Growers, Inc.!

What makes you think we are not? Actually, no luck with avocados yet. We have already killed 4 avocado trees, so we are experts now (at killing them). But we harvested our first manila mango this year (it was good) and hopefully next year we will have more than one! We have a couple of loquat trees, three figs of two different types, and in the z10 garden we are trying to grow bananas. So far only banana leaves, but that is OK (I use them). I am going to have to research some of this other fruit you mention...

Has anyone ever grown Jarvis Golden Prolific or Jellicorse Twin? I have seed for them but I've never planted it. I'm thinking of trying one of them next year.

This question may have already been answered, but I can't find it: For a three sisters garden, how tall should the corn be before planting the beans? and how tall should either corn or beans be before planting the squash?
As a youngster I remember dad planting beans and corn together intending for the beans to climb up the corn stalks. But instead, the beans smothered out the corn or caused it to be so twisted it was trying to produce ears smooshed into the dirt.

There is at least one thread about corn field beans on the Beans Forum. In it, fusion_power (Darrel Jones) mentions planting beans and squash when the corn is 1 to 2 feet tall.

Jim

Here is a link that might be useful: Corn Field Beans

When my corn reaches two feet I feel that it's almost too late to plant beans on it. Usually I aim to plant the beans right after I have hilled the corn. At that time it's usually about a foot tall. I'm sure that variety (both of corn and of beans) can make a difference.

George

Thanks for linking me up. I was using "pole" in my unmanageable search. I gather that squash and beans are planted about the same time. True? The corn height is as I suspected, but I'd forgotten about hilling up.

I am so glad this thread is still going and there seems to be a lot of interest in growing corn for use other than sweet corn. I am not sure if anyone has mentioned in an earlier post but the carbs in corn flour break down much slower than the heavily processed wheat flour so much of our diet is based on (which contributes to diabetes).

There are so many good old varieties of corn out there to use (and help preserve too). One thing to remember is that open pollinated type corns (not hybrids) on average have higher protein (there are exceptions) and that colored corns have a lot more trace elements and added nutrition. As years go by I see fewer and fewer people growing the old flour type corns. There are a lot of good ones still out there, mostly white, mixed or blue. On the dents there is a huge selection to pick from. Dents range in color from white to yellow to blue to red to mixed...etc. On the dents there is a wide range of ones that are more flour like to ones that are very, very flinty to ones in between.

The "Cherokee Squaw" corn has a wide genetic base to it and there is a very similar one named "Cherokee Blue and White Dent", also called "Trail of Tears Dent" and "White Eagle Dent". My original sample I got many years ago from Carl Barnes in Oklahoma was tagged ...

Cherokee TOT Blue and White Dent
--------------------------------
White Eagle Marks

This corn has a wide range of genetic material. Plants range from 4' to 7' tall, ears from 5" to 8" long, red or white cob, from 12 to 18 rows of kernels. Colors of white, dark blue, light blue, purple, spotted, etc. Some ears are very flinty while others are quite floury. The history of this corn does go back to before removal from the east but is lost in history to exactly when it was adopted by the Cherokee...most likely in the 1700's.

The "Cherokee Squaw" corn is very similar to the above Cherokee TOT corn but not the same. This corn actually has more Muscogee heritage...quite similar and I am sure with a lot of the same heritage and definitely grown by a lot of Oklahoma Cherokee. Also "Squaw Corn" is a white term for "Mixed Corn".

Other great colored corns not much seen or grown these days are Blue Clarage, Mexican June, Strubbe's Calico, Northwestern Dent (semi-dent) and Bloody Butcher. There are many, many more with a lot to offer small growers. If you are a reader "thinking" about trying something new...go ahead, read up, get some seed and give this a try. Have fun with it.

Blueflint

Thanks Blueflint! It's great to learn some more, especially on the history of Cherokee Squaw and similar corns. I showed this one to a non-registered Cherokee friend, with roots in MO, and he lit up saying "Yes! This is what my family has raised for generations!" Only, as is to be expected, they didn't call it "Cherokee" Squaw corn. They just called it "Squaw Corn."

Blue Clarage was one of the three which Glenn Drowns recommended to me, back in 2005. I wrote asking about a good corn to grow, here where we have high winds. My criteria were, 1) that the corn not lodge (blow over) easily, 2) Didn't have to be sweet, & 3) That it be productive.

There ARE so many good old varieties out there in need of "adoption." This brings me back to my soap box about trying to get many gardeners to save a few good seeds. Not that I would like to see only a few varieties kept. But rather, I feel that we would have more variety and stability if we had MORE seed savers and that each kept even one or two varieties going. Corn is more demanding, from the seed saving perspective, because, as you mentioned way above here, it is so very easy to get it crossed. I now have two corns, and that's all I'm going to do, because I don't want to get them crossed.

For anyone looking for a good corn, especially an uncommon one, the best place to look (unless, perhaps, you are a member of the Seed Savers Exchange) is at Sandhill Preservation Center. They have an incredible collection. But if someone has contact with a local heirloom, by all means resist the temptation of "the exotic" and grow that.

George

Is bloody butcher a southern dent?

I ordered from baker creek: "pencil cob dent"; "longfellow flint" (hoping that it will turn out to be a well-adapted flint to southeastern new england), and a specialty asian baby-corn/popcorn called "chires". Together with my saved seed from HK that will be four strains to try and grow out pure. Ideally I'd like eight different locations so that each will have two populations in case of a failure at one, but I'll be lucky to have four different sites.

On the cornbread front, my corn stock has pretty well dried out, and the difference in flavor is dramatic. Not nearly as tasty, the flavor is not deep, and the texture is that familiar very crumbly rather then chewy. It's clear that fall is the best time for flavor. I'm thinking for next year that I may have to get a chest-freezer and store the cobs frozen at the partially dried stage.

Bloody Butcher is a "Corn Belt Dent", not a "southern dent". Southern Dents would be Mexican June, all of the various Gourdseed Corns, Hickory Kings (most of the named varieties), Jellicorse, etc. which are considered to be late flowering.

Blue Clarage...a corn belt dent adapted to central and southwest Ohio

Although we are mostly talking about dent corns here, don't forget the many, many good Native American Corns that are still available, both flints and flours and some of the flints are actually a flinty flour...that is they have a fairly thick flint margin but still have a good flour interior.

Anasazi Flour Corn, a good producer on short stalks. Ears average 6" to7" long with 10 to 12 rows of kernels.

Blueflint

Blueflint, that is a handsome ear of Blue Clarage! Sandhill says Blue Clarage has some white kernels, but another source says it is solid blue and can be used as a table corn.

Another source says that Black Aztec/Black Mexican makes a good roasting corn.

This thread kept me up scrolling across and reading every post.
That loaf of cornbread is very interesting. I've never baked cornbread in a loaf pan before. Does the longer (I assume)cooking time make the cornmeal more tender or moist?
I'm hoping to plant a multi-color corn from Sandhill's this year, so this thread has really been a big help.
Care to share that recipe? Hmmmmm?

There are various "Clarage" corns that were developed in Ohio. These include: Wooster Clarage, Late Clarage, Eichelburger Clarage and Blue Clarage and I am sure there are others too. Many of these are actually yellow dents. From what I have researched is Blue Clarage should be solid blue though an occasional white kernel does show up but these should be discarded. Blue Clarage is a very good corn...lots of trace elements, good protein content, slightly more sugars than most dents and can be used as a roasting corn but it is not a sweet corn. It was developed as an all purpose small farm open pollinated corn...thus it had good yields, farmer could save/produce his own seed, could be used for livestock feed and for home/family use. All of the Clarage corns are also noted as being smut resistant and having good corn borer resistance. The various Clarage corns along with Leaming were used for the majority of the inbred lines to develop the many local hybrids of the 1950's thru the 1980's.

Black Mexican and Black Aztec do make good roasting corns. These are sweet corns but not very sweet.

Blueflint

Speaking of smut, has anyone ever eaten that fungus that grows on stressed corn? George, maybe, did you try it in Mexico?

One year I had alot of corn smut, probably threw out hundreds of dollars worth of restaurant delicacy, but I could not bring myself to try to eat it. It did have a delicious mushroom smell, though.

Well, my mom made cornbread in a bread pan and I guess I just followed tradition! I don't think it makes much difference in the finished product. Here's my recipe. It's pretty basic.

Mix together dry:
1 1/2 cup corn meal
1 1/2 cup white flour
2-3 tablespoons of sugar (optional)
1 teaspoon salt
2 teaspoons baking powder

Add to this:
1 egg
3 tablespoons melted shortening (I like bacon grease best.
But any shortening will do)
About 1 1/4 cup of milk or water

I usually have to adjust my batter by either throwing in a handful or two of flour or adding a bit more water. Batter should be fairly thick.

Place this into a greased tin, or, if you want, a greased cast iron frying pan.

Bake at 350 F. I never remember how long this is supposed to take. But I guess it's about 20 minutes. I know it's ready when I smell the cornbread and see that the top of the loaf is browning. One can make sure that the middle is done by sticking in a clean knife. If it comes out clean (no dough on it), then it's ready.

The sugar is what makes cornbread taste like the "Jiffy mix" cornbread. So, if that's what you like, add the sugar.

I would also add that I normally add almost half cornmeal to my sourdough starter, even when I will later use it to make white bread. Cornmeal enhances sourdough flavor in the finished product.

Happyday, I have often eaten "Huitlacoche" (corn smut). Just pick it before it gets powdery with black spores. We often joked, when we lived in Mexico, that among the rural and indigenous, anything edible will probably be eaten fried in eggs. That is indeed how I normally had it :)

One year, when we were back in NJ, I grew Nothstine Dent Corn. Our soil was way too acidic and the corn apparently didn't like that. Not only did it lodge quite a bit, but we had corn smut all over the place. We enjoyed the corn smut as much as the corn!

It is simply WONDERFUL to be getting input on all these varieties of corn!

George

Thank's for sharing the recipe. I'm gonna try it in a loaf pan. It just looks so neat and special.
The multi-colored corn I want to grow is Anazazi, so the picture and information made up my mind.

I had to read the thread "Corn for Meal and Grits 1".
I didn't grow up in the Depression, but my mom did, so undoubtably , that's how she knew how to make much out of little. The cornbread recipe in "Corn 1" is like the one my grandmother used, except she used sour milk.
I'm really looking forward to trying my hand at growing the Anazazi corn.
Blueflint,
When you say 'flour corn' does that mean the corn grinds too fine to be good for cornmeal? I'm confused.

Flour type corns are just that, mostly made up of the fine inner starch flour with very little hard "horn" or "flint" to it. Flinty type corns are a little better for grits IMO but flour corns are great for cornmeal and flour for most things. Some corns are in between a flint and a flour...they have a fairly thick flinty margin with a nice flour "heart" to them. Many flints are almost solid all the way through like popcorn (that's what popcorn was developed from).

Similar to cornbread, I make "Corn Biscuits".

1 cup commercial corn meal
1 cup flour
1 tablespoon crisco
1/2 teaspoon salt
3 teaspoons baking powder
1 egg
1/3 cup milk

blend dry ingredients, blend in crisco and egg then add milk to make a thick dough. Roll out 1/2" to 3/4" thick, use biscuit cutter (or I use a plastic glass of proper size), bake on a cookie sheet at 450 for 8 minutes. If using home ground "whole" cornmeal, use 2 cups instead of the 1 c corn meal and 1 cup flour. This makes 6 nice sized Corn Biscuits.

Hey George,
On your Squaw Corn, is it fairly consistant from ear to ear...or are some ears more flinty than others? How would you rate your squaw corn in general? The squaw corn I have is quite flour like. The Cherokee TOT Corn I have though has a wide range from ear to ear...some are flour like, some are very flinty and some are in between...definitely a wide range here.

Blueflint

Thanks. I'm impressed.
One more day of vacation left so it looks like tomorrow will be a cornbreadfestarama : ).

The Cherokee Squaw Corn I'm growing has some variation in the size of kernels, though all are much larger and flatter than say, the corn one gets at the feed store. I'd say that it behaves a lot like flour corn when being ground. I'm pleased with how easy it is to shell and grind. After working with it, the contrast with Mesquakie is very noticeable. Mesquakie Indian corn has a lot more flint-like qualities. It even pops (poorly) when parched in the oven.

When we lived in Hidalgo, Mexico my favorite corn for meal and grits was the really large kernel flour corn which one sometimes sees up here, sold as corn nuts. It came in either red or white. In Mexico they make it into hominy and use the kernels in a soup called Pozole. This flour corn was extremely easy to grind and we enjoyed it, both for grits and corn meal. So, I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from trying a flour corn. They are very nice.

As an aside, let me tell you an anecdote on our life in Mexico. The first two years was characterized by frustration and hardship. We were grappling with the language and also with the environment. Our family suffered a good many illnesses until we adjusted to the new environment. After two years we were fluent. So the language problem was much relieved. Every six months to a year we'd go to Texas, for car parts and supplies, etc. While there, we'd stock up on some things we couldn't get in Mexico. Two items on our list were always grits and cornmeal. Mexico is the land of corn. But they hardly use cornmeal as we know it and grits are unheard of. So, we'd stock up and then ration until the next border trip.

After 5 or 6 years in Mexico, I got to thinking about our love of these two items and the fact that we were surrounded by corn! That's how we learned to grind our own. We experimented! Suddenly we didn't need to ration these items! I often thought that this was taking adaptation to a new level!

Blueflint, I'm going to try that recipe. It looks good!

George

O.k.. I just checked out SESE and Sandhill's heirloom corn selections. Now, I would like to grow several different varieties. Could someone tell me the best open pollinated, multi- purpose corn for NE Texas, zone 8, clay "soil"?
If I keep this up, I'll have to log in as "oldcorn" : ).

I forgot in the recipe that I also add 2 tablespoons (almost level) of light brown sugar. This is basically a modern version of Corn Pone that so many Native Americans ate for hundreds of years. Depending on the location, it was sometimes eaten with Maple Syrup, Honey, Honey and Blueberries, etc. or enjoyed everyday by itself. This makes a fairly dense "biscuit". I make mine about 3" across.

Blueflint

I have sent samples of Leaming corn to several small heirloom seed companies. They say they might try and offer it in the future. Presently it is not available anywhere other than from me. I have the seed for trade if anyone wants to check out my trade list. Leaming corn was at one time the most popular yellow dent corn in America. It was common all through the corn belt until inbred hybrids replaced just about all open pollinated varieties. I would like to see it being planted once again. At this time it seems anyone growing OP corn on a commercial level is growing Reids Yellow dent. Reids is a great corn but around here Leaming does even better.

Thanks George, now you have sent me on a quest to find the source of CornNut corn, since I am always looking for the biggest. Maybe I'll just migrate over to the Giant Veg Forum!

The wiki says there is "a hybrid Cusco corn which could be grown in the climate conditions of the United States." Does anyone have a seed source for this?

The wiki also mentions a Phillipine cornnut, "Boy Bawang corn nuts (that) are light and crispy compared to American corn nuts." Now I have to hunt for a source for them too, as American cornnuts are too much like lead shot for me to wear my teeth down chewing them. Maybe Boy Bawang uses a flour corn rather than a flint corn.

Found a page on the evolution of corn below which mentions giant Cuzco corn.

Here is a link that might be useful: The biphyletic hybrid vigor of the Corn Belt Dent

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Holtzclaw

Cherokee Squaw Corn continued

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