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macmex

Corn for Meal & Grits 2

Macmex
15 years ago

Hey folks,

I cant get my old thread on "corn for meal and grits" to come back up the list, and I canÂt find it using GardenwebÂs search engine. I can find it if I go to the following link, which was so graciously supplied by one of our members in PNBrownÂs thread on Hickory King Corn.

I would like to encourage other gardeners to consider growing a non-sweet corn, if cornmeal, grits and support for legumes is of interest. Points made in the previous thread of this name were 1) Sweet corn inherently has weak stalks, which are not suitable for supporting most beans, 2) Non-sweet (flour, dent or flint) corns can be used for corn on the cob, but they are just that not sweet; good, but not sweet. 3) as was also so well illustrated in the Hickory King progress thread, homemade cornmeal and corn bread are out of this world!

I hope to put half my main garden in corn next year. I want to do this because 1) My time is limited and corn is a lot less work, 2) Corn helps me to control weeds. 3) We USE IT!

This year, because I had hunted down a traditional Cherokee corn for use in a local Trail of Tears historical garden, I grew Cherokee Squaw corn along with our favorite Mesquakie Indian corn. I isolated them by a couple hundred feet and made sure that they came into silk several weeks apart. Both are great corns. I still need to grow out more of the Cherokee Squaw in order to assure my supply of seed. I will be supplying that historical garden again, in 2009, since they had a crop failure.

Here are two pictures. The one of Cherokee Squaw really doesnÂt do it justice, it is just so beautiful, yet totally different from Mesquakie Indian corn.

{{gwi:8943}}

Mesquakie Indian Corn

{{gwi:8944}}

Cherokee Squaw Corn

IÂve concluded that I would prefer to space my rows at 4Â in the future. Though in 2007 I did one experimental planting, in which I really crowded the corn with only about a foot between rows and perhaps 8" between plants within the row. That arrangement was messy and hard to weed. But it produced extremely well. I did that right where I had intensively composted.

In order to maintain an open pollinated corn one should grow at least 200 plants per year. Isolation is important. Each variety should be separated by several hundred feet to ¼ mile. My understanding is that non-sweet varieties pollen is heavier and tends to fall to the ground more quickly than that of sweet corn. But since my home is easily ½ mile to a full mile from any other gardens with corn, I prefer to stagger my plantings to that varieties come into silk at different times. I donÂt want to maintain more than two varieties however. That would be too complicated for my life situation at this time.

There are a number of sources for open pollinated corn seed. Sandhill Preservation has the most complete listing of any commercial source that I know.

George

Tahlequah, OK

Comments (123)

  • cabrita
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nature girl I am female and small (5 feet, 105 lbs). I am in good shape but not super strong. I have a brand new Corona mill. If you go to the conversations above I asked the group if they could recommend a grain mill? then I pasted a link from the one I found. I bought that exact same one (from that site in Alabama), it arrived soon afterwards (not much delay) and the shipping was not as bad as I figured. The mill looks like it can be used problem free for the next one hundred years (no kidding).

    I made one corn bread one evening, and the next day I could not stay away from my new toy so I had to bake another bread. Of course I was out of corn, so I ground up barley, buckwheat, and a lots of wheat. I also used regular white flour to make it less heavy. I made 4 loaves. Let's say every cup of grain is about the equivalent of one of those upper body machines at the gym, but just two sets. Also, you do not have to pay to grind your grain! OK seriously, George gave you very good advice, and we did notice the same thing. Best results, start coarse and grind at least twice, I think I will do 3 times on my next bread. I started grinding the whole grains on the finest setting and that was really hard (but doable). I like the fact that there is not much heating during grinding. Oh yes, the breads came out so delicious! big difference from fresh ground to store bought.

    So in any case, if I was going to go into a baking business, the grinding would be too much, but to make breads just for my (small) family, it is fine. I also had trouble with the table not being strong enough (it walked on me), so I will attach it to a work bench too, or something like that. I want to leave mine out as well, I like the way it looks too ;-)

  • holtzclaw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This thread is bringing up some memories I didn't know I had. I'm remembering a hand cranked grinder that was mounted on the enamel board at the far side of our Housier cabinet. That way it was out of the way. I only remember it being used once and that was for some kind of fruit. The reason I remember is because I ate the peelings and Mom thought that was nasty. I know that when Mom sold everything that didn't look modern to her, the grinder had been so securely mounted onto the enamel, that a crank pencil sharpener had to be put there to hide the damage. For a child, it was a fabulous toy, even its box of attachments we never used. (Seems now that ground crayons ended that era.)
    Mom's people are Cherokee and thus my fascination, but she grew up in a time when she associated a lot of shame with her background. That hindered almost all knowledge from being passed down. Also, Dad was the farmer, so I learned his way of gardening and he actually taught her about canning and such. Mom is a fabulous cook, but all I knew of her folks' cooking was that everything was smothered in meat renderings (bacon drippings) at the beginning of cooking and again every time an aunt or grandmother came into the kitchen. Green beans, poke salat, okra, whatever, was cooked until it was more black than green.
    We're Eastern Band, and as far as I can tell, all the Cherokee around here had already taken up Southern colonial living by the time of the removal. A famous chief who lived near here even had African slaves. It would be hard to say what customs/foods were Cherokee and which were not.

  • Macmex
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    There are some, even on Gardenweb, who know a great deal about early Cherokee foods, etc. Blueflint is one of them. We are getting to have more and more Cherokee friends, here in Tahlequah. Some are really into historical studies. My wife and daughters are learning, from a Cherokee friend, how to work wool and spin. My wife asked that I get her "some sheep" for Christmas!

    Here are two pictures of cornbread made from Cherokee Squaw corn. I noticed, this morning, that my cornmeal has lost most of its blue tint.

    {{gwi:115149}}

    {{gwi:115152}}

    Pat, that wasn't flaking paint (up above). I hope it's not acrylic, not lead. That's damage, on our window sill, due to our dogs leaning there to look out the window.

    George

  • Macmex
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Holtzclaw,if you would like to try growing Cherokee Striped Cornfield pole bean, which came from a Cherokee family in Eastern TN, e-mail me your address.

  • Macmex
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The wife and I finished dehusking and shelling the last of our Cherokee Squaw Corn last night. We're impressed with how much actual corn we got from a relatively small planting. I think I only managed to get in about 229 plants. In the future I won't go below 300 or 400. Indeed, we decided last night, that half of our 2009 corn planting will be Cherokee Squaw.

    Some ears are short and fat. Some are long. Most have a red cob. But some have a white cob. I didn't realize how different dry corn varieties can be aside from color. I suspect that Mesquakie Indian has a lot more flint characteristics than Cherokee Squaw. Shelling Cherokee Squaw we both kept commenting how much easier it was than Mesquakie Indian. The kernels are much looser in the cob. Also, we like to shell with our hands. We noticed that the Cherokee Squaw kernels have a much larger, deeper dent; and that our thumbs didn't get raw shelling it.

    Just an additional observation.

    George

  • pnbrown
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Easy-shelling is a nice characteristic. I like shelling by hand too. Speaking of variation within a variety, I notice that one ear can have much looser kernels than another. Also some ears have bigger kernels, and those tend to be the easier ones. I think in this case the difference is that the ears from stalks that blew over in early september did not get as mature or as dry, and so do not shell as easily and probably have less food-value per ear also.

  • Macmex
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We had some stalks lodge. But all continued to mature. ANY Cherokee Squaw ear was easier to shell than any Mesquakie Indian ear. Most of the time, with the Cherokee Squaw corn, the kernels looked very well filled out. They're just shaped differently. It will be interesting to compare these two over time. I would have said that Cherokee Squaw is more prone to lodging than Mesquakie Indian. But this year, for the first time, I had some lodging with Mesquakie Indian as well!

  • gallaure
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ooooh, I gotta get a Corona mill! I'm all about finding hand-powered appliances. Make ya real hungry for yer food!

    Reminds me of Japanese noodles: the best restaurants for soba (buckwheat) noodles in Japan grind the buckwheat to order and then make the noodles from scratch right there. When you order, your soba noodles are still in whole grain kernels, unground. Talk about fresh! The flavor is unparalleled!

    Also another use: dried fruit & veggie powders. When you dehydrate a fruit sufficiently to be able to grind it into a powder, it does amazing things! Tomato pastry dough (dried tomatoes added ground to the flour), apple powder added to oatmeal, papaya powder sprinkled over ice cream... YUM!

    Also, freshly ground almonds mixed half and half with grain flour really ups the flavor and protein content of breads and cookies.

    @George - I'm loving your descriptions of Cherokee Squaw. Being a Cherokee/Creek/Euro mutt, I'm all about doing a 3 sisters garden, and I'd love to have such a delightful corn! Besides, I'm a Southern Gal in Los Angeles, and grits just ain't available out here! I'd love to grow my own instead of adding food miles having tons of corn shipped. Mmmmm, and blue grits... Any chance I could talk you out of a few grains so I can get my own seed started? Just ten or twelve kernels would be fabulous! Can I trade you summat?

    -----Jenna

  • Macmex
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jenna, drop me an e-mail (via my member's page) and give me your e-mail.

    Cherokee and Creek are two out of the five civilized tribes. We have plenty of Creek around here. "Muskogee" is what they often call themselves. The Cherokee have something like 400 years of contact with European culture under their belts. It's my understanding that the Cherokee consider a person to be Cherokee if they can document that they have a "single drop" of Cherokee blood.

    George

  • gallaure
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Heh... I have more than a drop of both types of blood. Does that make me Cherokogee? ;)

    Seriously, though, thanks for the fabulous thread. I'm gonna go read part one. I've learned so much already!

    -----Jenna

  • Macmex
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, I forgot to mention it. But I have ground corn, straight, without parching and made corn bread with the meal. It's different than when parched. The grind is a bit more coarse. But it is good. We'll try it for a while before making a final decision on whether to parch or not. Pat, thanks for the idea. I hadn't thought to try that since I very first started grinding my own corn.

    George

  • pnbrown
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    De nada, George.

    I've been having cornbread about every other day. Today I made it with cheddar cheese baked in. That was good. I wonder when I'll have to start worrying about getting pellegra?

  • fusion_power
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    you'll get pellagra when you quit taking your vitamins.

    :D

    I need to get one of those handy grinders. I've wanted to make my own corn meal for years but just never made the plunge.

    DarJones - who grows several long rows of corn each year.

  • happyday
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cabrita, after finding this thread I suspect that the dark red corns I sent you were Mesquakie Indian Corn. I also had yellow and black ears, deep red with some dark red kernels, and lighter orange-red with dark red kernels. In fact the ears I collected seed from looked very much like Georges first photo up there. So if next summer some of those red corns turn out yellow and black, you will know for sure that it is Mesquakie Indian Corn.

    George, when you are ready to try the Ma Williams/Goose bean, I'll trade you for some Cherokee Squaw Corn!

  • Macmex
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Alright Andy! How you tempt me! Let's correspond privately on this.

    Did you purchase Mesquakie Indian from Sandhill Preservation? I don't recall sending you seed for that one.

    Did you grow out the Warsaw Buff Pie Pumpkin seed that I sent? How did that do for you?

    We're enjoying corn bread on a regular basis now. I'm also getting the area ready for planting corn next spring.

    You folks who live in the North don't realize what a curse you're missing. Bermuda grass is scary fast growing and it overruns almost everything. These cold months, which by the way, until the end of this month or the first of January are still mild enough for cultivation, are my favorite for weeding and cultivating. The Bermuda is dormant and I have a chance to get ahead.

    Corn is one of the few things I can plant which actually out completes Bermuda. Wherever I grow corn, the Bermuda is much less problematic in the following year.

    George
    kg8da(at)juno.com

  • happyday
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    George, you got mail. You won't regret trying the Ma/Goose bean!

    I wonder if your Warsaw Buff Pie Pumpkin is related to the tan pumpkins Rodger used to grow?

    You folks who live in the North don't realize what a curse you're missing. Really? Is that grass as bad as a Wisconsin winter? Can't melt snow with Roundup!

    until the end of this month or the first of January are still mild enough for cultivation We had an ice storm Monday, snow storm yesterday, and it might rain and freeze again this weekend. I might be willing to risk Bermuda grass in exchange for all that! :)

    Seriously, the Bermuda grass might be a godsend in terms of preventing erosion, it might be the only thing holding the soil down now that the native prairie plants are mostly gone. Though that isn't much comfort when you are fighting it in the garden, I know.

  • Macmex
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ranchers love Bermuda. They even FERTILIZE it! But it is rough on gardening. Okay, you've got a point about the ice and snow. I remember in Northern Indiana, when we lived there, how old that ice and snow could get. Still, in the North, weeds are positively wimpy compared to what the South has to deal with.

    The Warsaw Buff Pie Pumpkin could be closely related to Rodger's pumpkin. One would have to grow the two in order to compare. (And hand pollinate to preserve pure seed). I sure wish I had more background on it. Northern Indiana, where I got the original seed, seemed to be an area which had plenty of people from the Appalachians.

    "You won't regret trying the Ma/Goose bean!"
    Shhh!!! Zeedman will never let me live this down!

    George

  • cabrita
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Happyday, so do you think I can use the red corn to support beans in a 3 sister garden? I think the blue corn I sent would work for that, but planted farther apart than I did. You sent several red ones in different shades. It should be very interesting to see what grows. I also had my sowing time wrong, I planted in April, not February. I now have enough corn varieties, but not enough land!...LOL

    Is bermuda grass also called crab grass? it pops up out of nowhere, you pull on it and it keeps coming up? then it sprouts up again several feet away? We pull all grass out (and call it a weed) nice to know corn will overpower it....Zea Mays coming to the rescue.....

  • happyday
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cabrita, the corn I found did have long, strong stalks attached, so maybe it will support beans. Let us know how it turns out next year, ok? Also if it is good to eat!

    George, do you have black swallowwort in your area? It's like trying to eliminate nuclear waste. I also found an overlooked redroot pigweed that was 8 feet tall and needed a chainsaw to cut down, not so wimpy as you might think! :)

  • Macmex
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cabrita, crab grass isn't the same as Bermuda. There is an invisible line, North of here, somewhere in Southern Missouri, where Bermuda no longer thrives and other grasses predominate. Somewhere to the North of that point, there is no Bermuda grass, as it freezes out. When we lived in Hidalgo Mexico we had Bermuda grass. But because of the relatively cool nights it didn't behave like such a terrible weed. Bermuda needs HEAT to prosper. When it gets HEAT it grows with amazing rapidity. I literally lose tools, which I leave in place (with all intentions of picking them up "tomorrow.") The Bermuda swallows them!

    Happyday, we had Black Swallow Wort in NJ. I agree it's not nice and I surely wouldn't want to face fields of it. But you would have to live in the South to understand the way things like Bermuda and Johnson grass grow. I've gardened in NJ, IL, OH, IN, South TX, OK and two states in the Republic of Mexico. I've never seen anything like Bermuda. But properly timed, a vigorous variety of corn can out compete it.

    I like cultivating during the cool/cold season because Bermuda is hibernating. I can KILL it while it sleeps... "THERE TAKE THAT!!!" To kill it I have to lift it, roots and all, from the soil and stash it above ground where it will dry out real well. It is amazing how every little root or stolon left springs back to life once night time temps reach 60 F.

    George

  • pnbrown
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Are ya'll talking about bermuda or bahia? In florida of my experience, bahia is the naturalized pasture grass that can't be stopped; bermuda is a coddled lawn grass that can't live without constant irrigation.

  • farmerdilla
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Bahia (Paspulum notation) is a tough drought resistant southern grass. It spreds mostly by seeds and does not have long underground stolens. No problem to control in a cultivated field
    {{gwi:115155}}
    Bermudagrass/Devilsgrass/Wiregrass (Cynodon dactylon)in all its forms grows with both above ground and under ground stolens. Usually planted by setting pieces of the stolen (plugging)The underground stolens are very tough and flexible ( like wire). They push through potatoes etc and even push up through asphalt drive ways. Each little piece of those stolens are viable, making it close to impossible to eradicate. They can run 4-6 feet a year.While some of more modern forms can be useful, Coastal for hay and forage, lawn cultivars etc., The naturalized form (wild Bermuda) is a pain.

  • Macmex
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you Farmerdilla! I'm sure that varieties differ in vigor. This I know, Bermuda will still thrive if one cuts it right to the ground. The roots are probably more than half the plant and can travel 4-6 feet before popping up again.

    I had a chat with our local extension agent. He mentioned that the one thing Bermuda doesn't handle well is being shaded/crowded. This is what both corn and cowpeas do.

    In this region, probably because of Bermuda, most clean gardens I've seen are weeded by Roundup.

    George
    Tahlequah, OK

  • cabrita
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am not sure what some of those 'evil' grasses are, I will take a picture when it pops up but now things are a little more subdued around here. My cilantro is popping up like it thinks it is a weed, same with parsley. I love those types of grasses! (not really grasses but corn is a grass right?)

    Happyday, thanks for the stalk information. I also ordered some seed from Victory seeds, so now I have 4 types of corn, your red ones (I know it is more than one type though) my blue one, and we bought Hickory king and yellow bantam seeds because my partner likes sweet corn. I think we can do 3 sister gardens with the blue, red, and Hickory king, but not the yellow bantam. We will just grow cucumbers as mulch for that latter one.

  • happyday
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    OK but if I was in So.Cal I would be growing avocado, almonds, cherimoya, mango, chocolate cacao, coffee, figs, jackfruit, pineapple, guava, lychee, sapote, kiwi, loquat, ice cream bean, etc. etc.

    You are so lucky to be in a warm climate!

  • cabrita
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What makes you think we are not? Actually, no luck with avocados yet. We have already killed 4 avocado trees, so we are experts now (at killing them). But we harvested our first manila mango this year (it was good) and hopefully next year we will have more than one! We have a couple of loquat trees, three figs of two different types, and in the z10 garden we are trying to grow bananas. So far only banana leaves, but that is OK (I use them). I am going to have to research some of this other fruit you mention...

  • donm
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Has anyone ever grown Jarvis Golden Prolific or Jellicorse Twin? I have seed for them but I've never planted it. I'm thinking of trying one of them next year.

  • holtzclaw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This question may have already been answered, but I can't find it: For a three sisters garden, how tall should the corn be before planting the beans? and how tall should either corn or beans be before planting the squash?
    As a youngster I remember dad planting beans and corn together intending for the beans to climb up the corn stalks. But instead, the beans smothered out the corn or caused it to be so twisted it was trying to produce ears smooshed into the dirt.

  • jimster
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    There is at least one thread about corn field beans on the Beans Forum. In it, fusion_power (Darrel Jones) mentions planting beans and squash when the corn is 1 to 2 feet tall.

    Jim

  • Macmex
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    When my corn reaches two feet I feel that it's almost too late to plant beans on it. Usually I aim to plant the beans right after I have hilled the corn. At that time it's usually about a foot tall. I'm sure that variety (both of corn and of beans) can make a difference.

    George

  • holtzclaw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for linking me up. I was using "pole" in my unmanageable search. I gather that squash and beans are planted about the same time. True? The corn height is as I suspected, but I'd forgotten about hilling up.

  • blueflint
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am so glad this thread is still going and there seems to be a lot of interest in growing corn for use other than sweet corn. I am not sure if anyone has mentioned in an earlier post but the carbs in corn flour break down much slower than the heavily processed wheat flour so much of our diet is based on (which contributes to diabetes).

    There are so many good old varieties of corn out there to use (and help preserve too). One thing to remember is that open pollinated type corns (not hybrids) on average have higher protein (there are exceptions) and that colored corns have a lot more trace elements and added nutrition. As years go by I see fewer and fewer people growing the old flour type corns. There are a lot of good ones still out there, mostly white, mixed or blue. On the dents there is a huge selection to pick from. Dents range in color from white to yellow to blue to red to mixed...etc. On the dents there is a wide range of ones that are more flour like to ones that are very, very flinty to ones in between.

    The "Cherokee Squaw" corn has a wide genetic base to it and there is a very similar one named "Cherokee Blue and White Dent", also called "Trail of Tears Dent" and "White Eagle Dent". My original sample I got many years ago from Carl Barnes in Oklahoma was tagged ...

    Cherokee TOT Blue and White Dent
    --------------------------------
    White Eagle Marks

    This corn has a wide range of genetic material. Plants range from 4' to 7' tall, ears from 5" to 8" long, red or white cob, from 12 to 18 rows of kernels. Colors of white, dark blue, light blue, purple, spotted, etc. Some ears are very flinty while others are quite floury. The history of this corn does go back to before removal from the east but is lost in history to exactly when it was adopted by the Cherokee...most likely in the 1700's.

    The "Cherokee Squaw" corn is very similar to the above Cherokee TOT corn but not the same. This corn actually has more Muscogee heritage...quite similar and I am sure with a lot of the same heritage and definitely grown by a lot of Oklahoma Cherokee. Also "Squaw Corn" is a white term for "Mixed Corn".

    Other great colored corns not much seen or grown these days are Blue Clarage, Mexican June, Strubbe's Calico, Northwestern Dent (semi-dent) and Bloody Butcher. There are many, many more with a lot to offer small growers. If you are a reader "thinking" about trying something new...go ahead, read up, get some seed and give this a try. Have fun with it.

    Blueflint

  • Macmex
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Blueflint! It's great to learn some more, especially on the history of Cherokee Squaw and similar corns. I showed this one to a non-registered Cherokee friend, with roots in MO, and he lit up saying "Yes! This is what my family has raised for generations!" Only, as is to be expected, they didn't call it "Cherokee" Squaw corn. They just called it "Squaw Corn."

    Blue Clarage was one of the three which Glenn Drowns recommended to me, back in 2005. I wrote asking about a good corn to grow, here where we have high winds. My criteria were, 1) that the corn not lodge (blow over) easily, 2) Didn't have to be sweet, & 3) That it be productive.

    There ARE so many good old varieties out there in need of "adoption." This brings me back to my soap box about trying to get many gardeners to save a few good seeds. Not that I would like to see only a few varieties kept. But rather, I feel that we would have more variety and stability if we had MORE seed savers and that each kept even one or two varieties going. Corn is more demanding, from the seed saving perspective, because, as you mentioned way above here, it is so very easy to get it crossed. I now have two corns, and that's all I'm going to do, because I don't want to get them crossed.

    For anyone looking for a good corn, especially an uncommon one, the best place to look (unless, perhaps, you are a member of the Seed Savers Exchange) is at Sandhill Preservation Center. They have an incredible collection. But if someone has contact with a local heirloom, by all means resist the temptation of "the exotic" and grow that.

    George

  • pnbrown
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Is bloody butcher a southern dent?

    I ordered from baker creek: "pencil cob dent"; "longfellow flint" (hoping that it will turn out to be a well-adapted flint to southeastern new england), and a specialty asian baby-corn/popcorn called "chires". Together with my saved seed from HK that will be four strains to try and grow out pure. Ideally I'd like eight different locations so that each will have two populations in case of a failure at one, but I'll be lucky to have four different sites.

    On the cornbread front, my corn stock has pretty well dried out, and the difference in flavor is dramatic. Not nearly as tasty, the flavor is not deep, and the texture is that familiar very crumbly rather then chewy. It's clear that fall is the best time for flavor. I'm thinking for next year that I may have to get a chest-freezer and store the cobs frozen at the partially dried stage.

  • blueflint
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Bloody Butcher is a "Corn Belt Dent", not a "southern dent". Southern Dents would be Mexican June, all of the various Gourdseed Corns, Hickory Kings (most of the named varieties), Jellicorse, etc. which are considered to be late flowering.

    {{gwi:115158}}
    Blue Clarage...a corn belt dent adapted to central and southwest Ohio

    Although we are mostly talking about dent corns here, don't forget the many, many good Native American Corns that are still available, both flints and flours and some of the flints are actually a flinty flour...that is they have a fairly thick flint margin but still have a good flour interior.

    {{gwi:115161}}

    Anasazi Flour Corn, a good producer on short stalks. Ears average 6" to7" long with 10 to 12 rows of kernels.

    Blueflint

  • happyday
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago
  • oldpea
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This thread kept me up scrolling across and reading every post.
    That loaf of cornbread is very interesting. I've never baked cornbread in a loaf pan before. Does the longer (I assume)cooking time make the cornmeal more tender or moist?
    I'm hoping to plant a multi-color corn from Sandhill's this year, so this thread has really been a big help.
    Care to share that recipe? Hmmmmm?

  • blueflint
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    There are various "Clarage" corns that were developed in Ohio. These include: Wooster Clarage, Late Clarage, Eichelburger Clarage and Blue Clarage and I am sure there are others too. Many of these are actually yellow dents. From what I have researched is Blue Clarage should be solid blue though an occasional white kernel does show up but these should be discarded. Blue Clarage is a very good corn...lots of trace elements, good protein content, slightly more sugars than most dents and can be used as a roasting corn but it is not a sweet corn. It was developed as an all purpose small farm open pollinated corn...thus it had good yields, farmer could save/produce his own seed, could be used for livestock feed and for home/family use. All of the Clarage corns are also noted as being smut resistant and having good corn borer resistance. The various Clarage corns along with Leaming were used for the majority of the inbred lines to develop the many local hybrids of the 1950's thru the 1980's.

    Black Mexican and Black Aztec do make good roasting corns. These are sweet corns but not very sweet.

    Blueflint

  • happyday
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Speaking of smut, has anyone ever eaten that fungus that grows on stressed corn? George, maybe, did you try it in Mexico?

    One year I had alot of corn smut, probably threw out hundreds of dollars worth of restaurant delicacy, but I could not bring myself to try to eat it. It did have a delicious mushroom smell, though.

  • Macmex
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, my mom made cornbread in a bread pan and I guess I just followed tradition! I don't think it makes much difference in the finished product. Here's my recipe. It's pretty basic.

    Mix together dry:
    1 1/2 cup corn meal
    1 1/2 cup white flour
    2-3 tablespoons of sugar (optional)
    1 teaspoon salt
    2 teaspoons baking powder

    Add to this:
    1 egg
    3 tablespoons melted shortening (I like bacon grease best.
    But any shortening will do)
    About 1 1/4 cup of milk or water

    I usually have to adjust my batter by either throwing in a handful or two of flour or adding a bit more water. Batter should be fairly thick.

    Place this into a greased tin, or, if you want, a greased cast iron frying pan.

    Bake at 350 F. I never remember how long this is supposed to take. But I guess it's about 20 minutes. I know it's ready when I smell the cornbread and see that the top of the loaf is browning. One can make sure that the middle is done by sticking in a clean knife. If it comes out clean (no dough on it), then it's ready.

    The sugar is what makes cornbread taste like the "Jiffy mix" cornbread. So, if that's what you like, add the sugar.

    I would also add that I normally add almost half cornmeal to my sourdough starter, even when I will later use it to make white bread. Cornmeal enhances sourdough flavor in the finished product.

    Happyday, I have often eaten "Huitlacoche" (corn smut). Just pick it before it gets powdery with black spores. We often joked, when we lived in Mexico, that among the rural and indigenous, anything edible will probably be eaten fried in eggs. That is indeed how I normally had it :)

    One year, when we were back in NJ, I grew Nothstine Dent Corn. Our soil was way too acidic and the corn apparently didn't like that. Not only did it lodge quite a bit, but we had corn smut all over the place. We enjoyed the corn smut as much as the corn!

    It is simply WONDERFUL to be getting input on all these varieties of corn!

    George

  • oldpea
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank's for sharing the recipe. I'm gonna try it in a loaf pan. It just looks so neat and special.
    The multi-colored corn I want to grow is Anazazi, so the picture and information made up my mind.

  • oldpea
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I had to read the thread "Corn for Meal and Grits 1".
    I didn't grow up in the Depression, but my mom did, so undoubtably , that's how she knew how to make much out of little. The cornbread recipe in "Corn 1" is like the one my grandmother used, except she used sour milk.
    I'm really looking forward to trying my hand at growing the Anazazi corn.
    Blueflint,
    When you say 'flour corn' does that mean the corn grinds too fine to be good for cornmeal? I'm confused.

  • blueflint
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Flour type corns are just that, mostly made up of the fine inner starch flour with very little hard "horn" or "flint" to it. Flinty type corns are a little better for grits IMO but flour corns are great for cornmeal and flour for most things. Some corns are in between a flint and a flour...they have a fairly thick flinty margin with a nice flour "heart" to them. Many flints are almost solid all the way through like popcorn (that's what popcorn was developed from).

    Similar to cornbread, I make "Corn Biscuits".

    1 cup commercial corn meal
    1 cup flour
    1 tablespoon crisco
    1/2 teaspoon salt
    3 teaspoons baking powder
    1 egg
    1/3 cup milk

    blend dry ingredients, blend in crisco and egg then add milk to make a thick dough. Roll out 1/2" to 3/4" thick, use biscuit cutter (or I use a plastic glass of proper size), bake on a cookie sheet at 450 for 8 minutes. If using home ground "whole" cornmeal, use 2 cups instead of the 1 c corn meal and 1 cup flour. This makes 6 nice sized Corn Biscuits.

    Hey George,
    On your Squaw Corn, is it fairly consistant from ear to ear...or are some ears more flinty than others? How would you rate your squaw corn in general? The squaw corn I have is quite flour like. The Cherokee TOT Corn I have though has a wide range from ear to ear...some are flour like, some are very flinty and some are in between...definitely a wide range here.

    Blueflint

  • oldpea
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks. I'm impressed.
    One more day of vacation left so it looks like tomorrow will be a cornbreadfestarama : ).

  • Macmex
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The Cherokee Squaw Corn I'm growing has some variation in the size of kernels, though all are much larger and flatter than say, the corn one gets at the feed store. I'd say that it behaves a lot like flour corn when being ground. I'm pleased with how easy it is to shell and grind. After working with it, the contrast with Mesquakie is very noticeable. Mesquakie Indian corn has a lot more flint-like qualities. It even pops (poorly) when parched in the oven.

    When we lived in Hidalgo, Mexico my favorite corn for meal and grits was the really large kernel flour corn which one sometimes sees up here, sold as corn nuts. It came in either red or white. In Mexico they make it into hominy and use the kernels in a soup called Pozole. This flour corn was extremely easy to grind and we enjoyed it, both for grits and corn meal. So, I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from trying a flour corn. They are very nice.

    As an aside, let me tell you an anecdote on our life in Mexico. The first two years was characterized by frustration and hardship. We were grappling with the language and also with the environment. Our family suffered a good many illnesses until we adjusted to the new environment. After two years we were fluent. So the language problem was much relieved. Every six months to a year we'd go to Texas, for car parts and supplies, etc. While there, we'd stock up on some things we couldn't get in Mexico. Two items on our list were always grits and cornmeal. Mexico is the land of corn. But they hardly use cornmeal as we know it and grits are unheard of. So, we'd stock up and then ration until the next border trip.

    After 5 or 6 years in Mexico, I got to thinking about our love of these two items and the fact that we were surrounded by corn! That's how we learned to grind our own. We experimented! Suddenly we didn't need to ration these items! I often thought that this was taking adaptation to a new level!

    Blueflint, I'm going to try that recipe. It looks good!

    George

  • oldpea
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    O.k.. I just checked out SESE and Sandhill's heirloom corn selections. Now, I would like to grow several different varieties. Could someone tell me the best open pollinated, multi- purpose corn for NE Texas, zone 8, clay "soil"?
    If I keep this up, I'll have to log in as "oldcorn" : ).

  • blueflint
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I forgot in the recipe that I also add 2 tablespoons (almost level) of light brown sugar. This is basically a modern version of Corn Pone that so many Native Americans ate for hundreds of years. Depending on the location, it was sometimes eaten with Maple Syrup, Honey, Honey and Blueberries, etc. or enjoyed everyday by itself. This makes a fairly dense "biscuit". I make mine about 3" across.

    Blueflint

  • donm
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have sent samples of Leaming corn to several small heirloom seed companies. They say they might try and offer it in the future. Presently it is not available anywhere other than from me. I have the seed for trade if anyone wants to check out my trade list. Leaming corn was at one time the most popular yellow dent corn in America. It was common all through the corn belt until inbred hybrids replaced just about all open pollinated varieties. I would like to see it being planted once again. At this time it seems anyone growing OP corn on a commercial level is growing Reids Yellow dent. Reids is a great corn but around here Leaming does even better.

  • happyday
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks George, now you have sent me on a quest to find the source of CornNut corn, since I am always looking for the biggest. Maybe I'll just migrate over to the Giant Veg Forum!

    The wiki says there is "a hybrid Cusco corn which could be grown in the climate conditions of the United States." Does anyone have a seed source for this?

    The wiki also mentions a Phillipine cornnut, "Boy Bawang corn nuts (that) are light and crispy compared to American corn nuts." Now I have to hunt for a source for them too, as American cornnuts are too much like lead shot for me to wear my teeth down chewing them. Maybe Boy Bawang uses a flour corn rather than a flint corn.

    Found a page on the evolution of corn below which mentions giant Cuzco corn.

  • shot
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pat (pnbrown) how about posting that photo of cornbread that you baked in the iron skillet? That will make your mouth water.

    Shot

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