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mchammmer

Vegetable garden near Hardwood trees

MCHammmer
9 years ago

Hi All,

First my house is on a 3/4 acre lot surrounded by huge Oaks bordering the entire property with the house by the street. I made a new vegetable garden are this year (approx 10x20) on the back of the lot. This was the best place to get enough sunlight to grow a veggie garden. It did poorly, small plants, blossom rot, small fruit, and some plants did not even fruit. I was puzzled since I had worked compost/manure into the soil, watered, and fertilized. a couple of weeks back someone was in my back yard and was looking at my pepper and their bright green/yellow color and deduced that the 40foot Oak trees to the back of the lot were probably the issue.

My question is. has anyone every ran into this issue? If so, is there anyway to get around it? Anything I can do? Moving it is not a feasible option.

Thanks in advance

Comments (11)

  • chervil2
    9 years ago

    Large trees consume lots of water and nutrients. Oaks tend to thrive in acidic conditions and so you may need to add lime to your garden. Your oak tree shaded garden might be better for leafy greens, cucumbers, peas, and beans, instead of sun loving and fertilizer needy pepper plants.

  • daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
    9 years ago

    Actually oaks thrive in lots of soil. I have several different varieties of thriving huge oaks (live, red, chinquapin) on my lot in a neighborhood, if not a county, that is decidedly alkaline. I'm talkin' limestone caliche and pH 7.5-8 water. No blueberries and camelias here! My successful garden starts about six feet south of a hundred year old tree that leans west. In fact, I get oak sprouts coming up in my garden. Are you saying that oaks somehow contaminate the soil or suck up all the nutrients? Not true at all.

    You said your lot had "enough sunlight to grow a veggie garden". I have to ask how much that is, and might suspect that it wasn't enough. Have you had your soil tested? Do neighbors have similar problems? There are many reasons why you could have a poorly performing garden, and I think oak trees are off the bottom of the list.

  • seysonn
    9 years ago

    General rule is to avoid making garden under the canopy of trees, if possible. Then it depend where the tree is situated relative to the garden, On the North, Northeast it should not be a problem. My only worry would be the walnut family of trees, especially black walnut.

  • rhizo_1 (North AL) zone 7
    9 years ago

    How far away from the garden are these trees?

    The root systems of trees are present much farther from the trunk than most people realize. A silent battle ensues underground for physical space, for water, and for dissolved nutrients. Those roots are also found in the top inches of soil, where the moisture, oxygen, and essential microorganisms exists.

    But another little known fact about oaks is that many species are allelopathic, and produce chemicals that may affect the growth of some other plants. In oaks, the culprit is a phenolic compounds named coumarin, and there may be others. Allelopathic chemicals can be found in root exudates, in fallen leaves, acorns, even in the water that runs off a tree's canopy from the bark and twigs.

    So there are many ways that 'huge ' established oaks can affect other plants and that is certainly something to consider with your garden.

    It would also be prudent for you to contact your local Extension office for information about soil testing. At the very least, you should find out your soil's pH.....oak trees are NOT an indicator of acidic soils and adding lime when it is not warranted could cause problems for a couple of years.

  • daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
    9 years ago

    As long as your bed is well dug, you won't be sharing roots in it. Oak roots take a while to propagate. I've never had any troubles with tomatoes, peas and basil within ten feet of my 100-year old oak. In fact, the cherries routinely go bananas. Now, that being said, these things are not within the drip line of the tree. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I routinely dig in red oak leaves as in situ compost at the end of the growing season. My bed absolutely reeks of oak leaves. It may be that my climate is such that the coumarin breaks down efficiently.

    That's true that allopathic plants can stunt growth under their leaves, but large oaks also have a dense canopy that pretty badly shades anything underneath it. Certainly, shade is something to be avoided. That's true for any cover.

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    9 years ago

    you might get some divergent opinions in the tree forum ... or even the hosta forum... as they deal with trees ....

    and you didnt answer .. with specificity.. how many hours of sun and when ... e.g. 4 hours of sun at dawn is not equivalent to 4 hours at high noon... its an intensity issue ... and 8 hours of high intensity sunshine is usually the min ....

    as a hosta grower ... oaks are one of my fave trees to garden under... i am just not thinking.. that is your root issue ...

    its fall.. leaves should be falling... it would help.. if you could IDs of your trees ... again.. in the tree forum ... if these veg peeps cant ID oaks ...

    and... are you sure they are all oak??? ... i like to say.. a trees roots system.. and be twice as large as what you see above ground.. usually in the shape of a rather flat pancake... perhaps a generalization ... but it gets the point across.. that you can be 50 feet away from a tree.. and still be dealing with it ...

    and if you have mature oaks.. what is behind them.. lurking.. doing their evil..

    also.. manuring AND fertilizing... could be double dosing on nutrients ... and that would cause some of your observations...

    and i never heard of looking at a pepper and blaming a tree out back ... have you asked about that in the pepper forum????

    i highly suspect... the trees are NOT your problem ... other than not allowing enough sunlight ....

    BTW ... does grass grow in your yard.... how aggressive is it??? .. if its sparse and struggling.. it could be a tree issue.... if it grows with vigor.. then .. on some level.. it rules out the tree issue ..

    a bunch of generalities for sure... mostly because.. i want you to focus on alternative reasons... other than the trees .. but for the sun amount issue ..

    ken

  • drmbear Cherry
    9 years ago

    Also consider that it was a newly dug garden. Things haven't had time for the compost to become part of the soil, etc. I've actually had some of the same issues with things like blossom end rot and other nutrient deficiencies in the first year of digging. Keep composting those oak leaves, grinding them to use as mulch everywhere, and things will get cooking soon. Even the second year should be better, but after the 5th year it could be amazing so ling as you are taking care of all the other normal garden maintenance things.

  • sunnibel7 Md 7
    9 years ago

    I had a similar lot back in the day of living in suburbia. Only my lot was red maple, which tend to keep their roots right near the surface. At least your oaks like to run a good portion of their roots deep. What I did was to remove the roots from the area planted every spring and fall, add compost and chopped leaves every year, added gypsum (the soil there needed it) first couple of years, then took a good look at the sunlight during the different seasons and chose certain large branches on a strategically (ill-)placed tree to bring extra hours of sunlight. Building a good garden takes a few years.

    I suggest going to a local nursery (an independent one rather than a big box store add-on) and talking to someone knowledgable there. They often know the basics of the soil in the area and should be able to point you in the right direction. Cheers!

  • galinas
    9 years ago

    I ended up of taking down all 4 large trees on my property over last 4 years. They didn't cover the sun, but the roots they spread just are unmatchable competitors...

  • daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
    9 years ago

    Competition from roots of felled trees? A halfway decent plow or a beefy tiller will cure that fast. I can't understand how well turned soil can host any competing roots. In fact, it's well known that reforesting a recently logged area doesn't even require serious tilling.

  • MCHammmer
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    First, Thank eveyone for the feedback! and I apologize for the delay in response. I have not totally figured out how to navigate this forum and for some reason do not get email updates on replies.

    I will try to answer all of the questions but let me know if I miss one.

    1) I am certain that these are all Oaks and are broad leaf oaks, appear to be white oaks but I verify when I get home today. I do have some Maple and Black Walnut but they are not close to the area in question.
    2) The garden is facing south with the Trees directly behind to the North and the closest trees are about 6-8ft behind the garden. They are 40-50ft tall and about 30-50yrs old.
    3)The area gets approx 6-9hrs of sunlight depending of side of the garden.
    4) I have not gotten a soil test to this point but plan too very soon before I shread and compost the leaves this winter. The soil is primarily orange clayey silt with fine/medium course granuals throughout
    5) This past year I added in 10cuft of compost/manure and 6cuft of peat moss to the 10x20 and didnt hit any roots from the trees down to 20inches of tilling.

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