OK. Should we start from the square one ? Just kidding.
I personally enjoy lively discussions and reading opposing views. That is how we learn. If we all agreed on the same thing, then there would NOTHING to be learned and added to our knowledge.

TO START: I am amending some of my beds with compost/organic matter and tilling them in. In the process I noticed few earth worm. Good news. I provided a lot of food for them to get busy and make casting. OK worms , get to work! haha

Since we will get a lot of rain for the next 6 months or so, I am covering the beds with plastic to prevent wash down.

To me the topic has become tiresome, but those members who have missed the many prior threads are doomed to repeat all the arguments...

I thought this thread/argument/rant was about was what a mechanical "tiller" does, and whether it's use was (1) of value, and (2) sufficient for garden prep. That's a walk-behind, hand-operated machine that stirs up the soil to a depth of 5-6 inches.

If the thread is about the "no-till" strategy of gardening, which was pioneered by Faulkner in the 1940s, that's something very different. That strategy, which doesn't require large tractors, nor the maintenance and fuel they need and the compaction they produce, and also cuts down on erosion, doesn't seem to be of particular value for a home garden. That strategy is very economical, but improves soils beds very slowly. If that's what this discussion is about, then I'm outta here, and we'll let the grain, soy, and corn farmers argue about it.

Frankly, I didn't ready most of the earlier thread.

My position, as a home gardener, is that a small tiller, as defined above, is "nice", but not sufficient for optimal garden prep.

I have raised beds lined with hardware cloth for gophers. I also have 3 large raised containers (8'x40"x1'deep)
I can't really dig down in the beds cause I might break the hardware cloth, and I can't hand turn the containers due to a bad shoulder.
I bought a small (10-15LB) tiller from my neighbor that is perfect! I can add compost, manure, or whatever and till it to about 6". I only use it when I tear out a bed (like my tomatoes this week) to prep for winter stuff or spring plantings.
I still have a healthy worm population, so I guess I didn't slice too many of them! I love my little tiller! Nancy

I don't think we are talking about a tractor type tilling here. Those who use mechanical tillers are the Wlalk-Behind types. Which serves the purpose to a great extent.

I personally, have not used them. I just use a shovel or fork and dig ( =turn over ) A good shovel depth (12 -14") is pretty good to loosen up, mix, aerate for most garden crops. But then I am just a small scale BackYardner.

But when we say (here) NO TILL , it means that you just dig a hole in the ground and plant things like tomato, pepper etc. And you don't bother with the area around it.

I am just amending my raised beds by adding compost, organic matter. I have to do some digging in order to mix that stuff in. I want to condition where the roots will grow. So by just spreading it over the top will not accomplish what I want.

You'd have to be Paul Bunyan with a shovel to match for a shovel-depth to be 12-14 inches deep. That is double-digging.

pnbrown .... I don't know who Paul Bunyan is but in a well establish bed I can do close to 12" with single digging with a new sharp shovel. You have to make smaller slices at a time. But you cannot do it on a virgin native soil. Then you have to do double digging. Sometimes I have had to use pick.

Actually, among the commercial community, what no-till means is *drilling* a hole for seeds, and planting the seeds in the hole. That's one thing that I believe real no-till involves. A seed driller. That is, displace as little soil as possible. I suppose that's a lot less expensive than a big tractor that has to pull a plow, if you're just going in an inch or less. Those drills work well with walking tractors that only need to propel themselves, and not turn over soil.

I have a shovel with an 11-inch blade, and I easily go down one blade depth. I usually try for one-and-a-half at the beginning of the season. You can call that double-digging, if you like, but it's not that hard. If you can't get your shovel in one blade depth, you really can't hope for much doing no-till, especially in a hot climate where the roots are then confined to the surface layer.

One thing I've always been puzzled about with no-till is what would seem to be a lack of deep soil aeration. I dig in large quantities of fallen leaves into my beds at the end of the season, and to the extent the leaves aren't completely composted, they'll need some aeration to get composted in-situ. So turning the mix over before planting is helpful. Yeah, I should really compost the leaves BEFORE digging them in, but it really works very well this way, and I have loads of leaves. Another reason to aerate the soil deeply is to improve drainage. If you have a mass of compacted soil immediately below the root zone, the roots will be awash in water, and that's not good. These being the case, a surface mini-tiller may not do the job. I guess if your soil structure is perfect, and doesn't need any amendments, it could work.

I believe in mixing in amendments to a fair depth...for gardens. I also like a nice place to plant seeds.

When water drains down more deeply or is used by plants, or evaporates, air is drawn and pushed into the evacuated space as nature abhors a vacuum.

I'm not sure that's quite right. Water certainly carries dissolved air with it, but it need not bring a lot of fresh gaseous air with it. A drop moving from 11 inches deep to 12 inches deep could just pull air up from the 12 inch layer as easily as pulling air down from the 10 inch layer to displace it. You end up with the same air.

Of course, that's why we have to turn our compost piles. Regular wetting of the pile and evaporation don't convey enough air for proper aerobic composting. But it's true, if you have something growing there that is sucking water out, that water has to be replaced by something.

Gee the search only pulls up 365 previous discussions of tillng versus no till - 366 now. Most are on the Soil forum where it is most relevant.

You can't discuss something rationally when no one even agrees on what the terms mean. And personal opinions without including at least the size of area you are talking about has no value.

What works or doesn't work with a small plot of 10 tomato plants or a couple of 4'x8' raised beds has little applicability to those who garden a 1/2 acre or more and vice versa. It's apples vs. oranges.

Dave

Well, I'm surely not keeping track of the number of posts on this. This particular thread started out trying to define terms. What I'm talking about is walk-behind mini-tillers. I see both advantages and disadvantages to them.

Not quite clear to me why area of cultivation is an issue. The issue for me what cultivation technique is most productive per unit area. BTW, there are many many discussions here about cultivation strategy that never refer to bed size. Seems like one can have an intelligent discussion about this without seeking "right" and "wrong". The point about the advantage for such a tiller with a raised bed is a good one.

I've not paid much attention to the oodles of previous posts on this, but it sure sounds like as a result of those, the question has become a third-rail that ought not be touched. That's kind of funny.

I see nothing wrong with having a new discussion on an old topic. In truth, the main reason I kept this going by starting a part two was because I like reading what other people have to say on this topic. I like reading what works best for someone in their garden, regardless of size. Another reason was to allow people who haven't commented a place TO comment, if they so desire. Which wasn't possible in the original thread.

Rodney

What I think of as an ordinary digging shovel is maybe more properly called a spade. In practice I find it turns or loosens about 6-8 inches deep.

Perhaps some of you are talking about those straight-sided, quite narrow but long shovels? Those often have blades 12 inches long or more. Totally useless for digging a hole or for doing anything in soil with rocks or gravel such as is common around here.

I use those terms somewhat interchangeably, but you're right that there is a difference. My understanding is that the bottom edge of a spade is flat. The bottom edge of a shovel is pointed. Mine is the latter. The blade is 11 inches long, and I have no trouble penetrating that pointed blade to a depth of almost a foot with it. My foot on the top rib ends up at soil level when I step on it.

Spades are for moving soil from one place to another. Shovels are for penetrating it.

I've been working my bed for a decade or more, and frankly it doesn't have any rocks in it anymore. It used to, long ago, as what's below the soil, a few feet down, is solid caliche.

But if you're working a bed that you can't penetrate with a shovel or a spade, what's going to happen to a mini-tiller? I might be wrong, but I'd think it would just "walk" along the surface. If a mini-tiller can dig a bed that a shovel can't penetrate, I guess that's a good reason to have one for a new bed before it got cleaned up.

I just measured some shovels around the place:

my long-handled "flat" shovel is a rectangle 9 inches wide by eleven long. I use this to move sand or pebbles, even in a long-time garden it would be rough to dig with. My ordinary long-handled rounded digging shovel is 8 inches by 11 (bigger than I thought). Yes, in my oldest garden where most of the stones are out and the organic matter is high I can easily sink that to full depth, but of course it doesn't leave a cavity eleven inches deep, IOW, I don't believe I could "till" to eleven inches with it without double-digging.

Fair points. However, I'm not talking about cavity depth, but just penetration. With single-digging, I can penetrate to almost a foot, loosening the soil at that depth, if not quite turning over the last inch or two. So I guess if we wanted to be precise, we could define "tilling" as exchanging soil, instead of just penetration.

But getting back on topic, how does a mini-tiller perform on soil that is hard to penetrate with a shovel? I've used them on soil that's in good shape, but never on a virgin patch of hardpan.

"how does a mini-tiller perform on soil that is hard to penetrate with a shovel?"

A lot depends on the quality of the tiller. Some weaker ones it's an almost impossible chore without some human force pushing on it...some of the better ones do quite well. It usually goes slower in compact/hard soils no matter the quality of the tiller, though.

It helps to dig/loosen a "starter hole" in some extremely compacted soils so you're chipping away at a slope while you go if it's not going well to begin with.

This post was edited by nc-crn on Mon, Oct 14, 13 at 19:06

Well, that's a big advantage of a tiller if it makes it a lot easier to break hard pan. If not that, then I guess you have to chip away at it with a shovel or a fork, or maybe even a pick. It's been a long time since I had to do that, and that was pretty miserable.

I guess if the hard pan was thick, you could go over it once with a tiller, remove the loosened soil, and go over it again to get more depth. Aaack.

You are asking about the mini tillers. In my case, each time I create a new raised bed I dig down as deep as possible into my horrible clay, add what ever manure is available (usually horse), Water heavily, build the raised beds with hardware cloth underneath, fill with dump/vege mix, be sure to make the vege mix fill into the dug up area, fill to the top, water yet again til it stops dropping, plant!
Next season, add compost, chicken sh** and till in to about 4-6 inches with my little tiller!
I still have plenty of worms! I must be doing something right! LOL Nancy

I agree with rodney.
I don't mind is somebody has a different opinion and reasoning than mine. Sometimes I get bits of good info from those and implement them.

Shovel Or Spade, There is the Question:

This is very interesting the British call the "Flat/street shovel" "Spade" and call the pointed one " Shovel". I learned this from "Flora -UK". Amazingly on playing card the suit that is called "Spade" detects a sharp pointed one.
But in the US the flat ended one(that you remove snow) never called "spade": YOU SIMPLY SHOVEL THE SNOW.
Here a picture, UK version.

That one on the right of the picture is what I would call a type of trenching shovel, useful for digging trenches in certain soils (not too hard and rocky, not too loose). Once you have a hole opened up that kind of shovel can lever out clean piece after piece, very similar to a mortising chisel.

To me a "flat" or "street" shovel has a long handle and a wider blade. The one on the left is a classic digging shovel, they come in different blade sizes and short handles as well. As a teenager I did a lot of digging working on a landscaping crew in florida, I remember one day being detailed to help an older fellow on a different crew dig a large hole for planting a royal palm. I had long before selected out the shovel with the smallest blade to make jobs less tiring for my less-than-full-size self, while this guy was a hardened veteran of killing sun and moving sand and was using a shovel a good two sizes bigger. He rode me pretty hard the whole time about my "baby" shovel. There wasn't much to be said, he had me pegged...

Is this off subject?

The occupation of "Ditch Digger" was once an honorable occupation. A professional ditch digger prided him/herself on their abilities. Pay WAS kind of low.

Now we go the rental center and rent a machine that is called "Witch"

Another "ART" has been lost

This post was edited by lonmower on Tue, Oct 15, 13 at 12:52

In other words, a shovel by any other name is... a spade LOL!!

Actually, I never knew the technical differences, thanks for the education! I guess one is never too old to learn.

Good discussion. (But yes, we DO use a mechanical gas engine tiller at the beginning of every planting season, and again at the end of the season to turn what is left into the soil. It is big, heavy and noisy, but to us old folks who can't lift our legs high enough to get good leverage on a shovel, it's a blessing.)

Edie

Here I am again.

"Spades are for moving soil from one place to another. Shovels are for penetrating it." This is precisely the opposite to the meaning over here. We shovel stuff with a shovel e.g. sand, cement, gravel. We dig with a spade. A British shovel has the same kind of handle as our spades but it has a wider more scooped blade which is rectangular, not pointed. The kind of shovel with a long handle without a D or T handle is not very common in England and is called a West Country or Celtic shovel. I am not an expert on Irish tools which is a whole other topic. I would never attempt to dig with a shovel. For that I'd use spade or fork.

Here is a link that might be useful: An English shovel

Thank for the excitement added to digging. LOL. Special thanks to Flora for the cultural clarification.

In the US, generally, ALL such digging tools are called "SHOVEL". The flat one(UK SPADE) is called, flat shovel, street shovel an trench shovel, as PNBROWN added. There is also a very big version (make of aluminum) to clean up snow, SNOW SHOVEL. Also, I personally use SHOVEL(pointy one) to dig. b,c it requires less effort to penetrate deeper into the soil. Of course, the garden fork is even better for digging. But if I want to load/unload things like soil, sand, .. I use the flat tipped one. The length of handle, is an option. I am talking about the FORM.

Anyway, today I will do some more digging , shoveling and amending. My beds are made this season, filled with purchase material. So need to be amended. And that is what I am doing. Yesterday I saw some worms. I got very excited. I am mixing in some stuff that have broken leaves in it. There goes their supply to munch on. haha

This is an interesting thread but, with all due respect, it's turned into a "to spade or to shovel" thread rather than "to till or not to till" thread.

Call me skeptical that tilling, without digging, can properly prepare a vegetable garden for best productivity. Yes, I guess if it's a raised bed, and it's filled with all sorts of fluffy stuff, I suppose it could work. Do those who just till to prepare a garden bed *never* dig deeply? Or is digging and turning over soil deeply just something that avowed tillers do every few years?

Dan ... Shovel and spade are gardening tools used to manually till, dig whatever. I, personally, have never used a mechanical power tool to do tilling. Besides, it is a fun discussion. Gardening, to me, is partly a hobby and a way to enjoy the nature, dirt and relax. I don't do it for a living.

OK, well, back to definitions. I was interested in tilling as done by "tillers", of the mini- mechanical- rotary variety. Otherwise known as small toothed cultivators, as opposed to chisel-plows and shovels that go deep. Those that turn the soil down to a depth of maybe half a foot or less. I thought what the question was trying to explore was the utility of such a mechanical tool in the garden, beyond saving muscles.

The question "to till or not to till", was not, I believe, intended to mean "to dig or not to dig".

That being said, these other thoughts make, as you say, a fun discussion.

In fairness the OP for this thread has defined tilling as including "digging". Maybe since we've made some progress defining various shovel-like implements we should now turn to the action part.

To me digging and tilling have quite different aims, even if they require similar action and tools. Digging is for the purpose of making holes or trenches, or moving material. For example if you are removing topsoil and then making trenches to build a structure - that's digging. Sharpening your shovel and then turning over shovelfuls of sod for the purpose of getting it to rot - that's a type of tilling.

Forcing a shovel or fork deep in the ground and rocking it back and forth - that's loosening, I would say, doesn't quite qualify as tilling.

pnbrown .....Interesting takes.
I also think of "DIGGING" like you described : digging a hole and taking the soil out, or digging and looking for something like potatoes, carrots. And digging a trench. Again removing soil/dirt out of it. None of these is aimed to condition a bed for planting. BUT then we have the term DOUBLE DIGGING (vs single digging) which aims to prepare a bed for planting. I personally call that kind of digging (like you said) "turning over". And that is how I do it to loosen the soil, to mix a layer of amendments(compost, manure) into the soil and LET it air and bake under sun, (if possible). This kind of TURNING OVER has another advantage(IMO) and it bring some of the soil at the depth to surface, which possibly has more nutrients due to leaching effect. THAT IS REALLY WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT: == TO TILL OR NOT TO TILL == I DO THIS MANUALLY or by a power tiller,like DAN does.
So the burning question(!?) here is : IS IT WORTH IT ? Why bother? just dig a hole big enough for your mater and plant it and STOP breaking your back. LOL

I do use a potato fork sometimes to more deeply mix things. I am rather moderate with this. I don't usually just rock it back and forth, but part way tip up some deeper soil. I like a 10 inch depth in what was originally clay loam or silty clay loam. Just southwest and west of me it is more silt loam...all the way to the Rockies I suppose.

I have very nice loose soil in most of the gardens, but that is partly because of heavy amending. Still, I like a loose and deep bed. I think it is partly because of the years disking soil in the fields to get a decent seed bed. Right across the fence it is no-till which is ok for farm crops with their big machinery to plant the seed.