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redsun9

Garden Layout and Placement

I'm having a hard time to decide how to lay out my new garden area, just deer fenced.

It is a 95'x35', 4 long rows from East to West. The path is about 3' wide. Right now, I divide it into two area, a 60'x35' and a 35'x35' area. Gate runs through the divider path.

Right now, my plan is:

7 grape vines, total about 60'
8 blackberry, total about 60'
Tomato cages, total 24-28, about 45' double row
Raspberry, about 40'
Pole bean and cucumber trellis, undecided
Sunflower and corns, about 30' row total
Brussel sprout and Okra, about 12 plants each
Hot/sweet peppers, about 24 plants total
Edamame, sweet potato, bush bean, peas, and some greens.

The principle is to place the tallest plants in the back. But grapes need all the fun they can get. So it is not good to put them in the last row (North), or the 2nd from last. I tentatively put the grape trellis in the front, in the 60' area, then blackberry behind grape vines, tomato the 3rd row and the Sunflower/corn in the last row.

In the 35'x35' area, I'll put the raspberry trellis last row. Then the pole bean/cukes trellis between raspberry and sunflower/corn. Then all the peppers, bush beans, peas, etc occupy the first 3 rows of the small area.

I try to find room for the asparagus I like to grow. But I just can't find good spot for them. I do not want to plant them outside the deer fence since the wild animals like the tender shoots. I do not know if I should place them in front of or behind the raspberry.

Any other ideas? My garlic, onion and herbs are planted outside the fenced area. I could fence them in, but it is going to be a nightmare to water all the beds. The rows are getting too long.

Comments (9)

  • SouthCountryGuy Zone 4b-5 SE BC
    9 years ago

    So glad you can join this forum. From what I have taken in on your past gardening I am not sure you should grow anything you list. Maybe start off with radishes. They are high yield and deer resistant. Probably much better than your onion sets or winter pumpkin ideas.

    Have a great day

  • digdirt2
    9 years ago

    7 grape vines, total about 60'
    8 blackberry, total about 60'
    Tomato cages, total 24-28, about 45' double row
    Raspberry, about 40'
    Pole bean and cucumber trellis, undecided
    Sunflower and corns, about 30' row total
    Brussel sprout and Okra, about 12 plants each
    Hot/sweet peppers, about 24 plants total
    Edamame, sweet potato, bush bean, peas, and some greens.

    Wow that is a great deal of stuff to cram into that size space! I honestly think that "tallest plant" issues won't be your main problem. Got an acre? Great. But 95'x35' is relatively small.

    New garden size is always deceptive that way. We think it is quite large when it is empty and it always seems like it will hold all sorts of things with space left over. In reality, once it is half planted we discover that is not true and we must scale back our expectations.

    It is unusual to try to combine perennial crops in with annuals given the work needed on the soil and the annual crops - often results in damage to the perennials. It also fails to take into consideration the very different nutrient and water needs of the plants. Why not consider the more traditional approach of growing perennials in their own separate areas?

    Dave

  • nancyjane_gardener
    9 years ago

    There are some garden planning sites that are free for a month or so that might be of help. I think Mother Earth News had a free for 30 days site.
    You definitely want a dedicated area for asparagus because it does multiply eventually (I have almost too much for the 2 of us in a 4x8' bed!, I don't freeze them though)
    I'm sure others know of garden planning apps/sites. You might start a new thread asking that! I'd like to get in on a few! Nancy

  • floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK
    9 years ago

    I agree that you have very ambitious ideas. Regarding the soft fruit - how many people are you growing for? And have you factored in the work of picking 40 feet of raspberries, etc. almost every day for several weeks? I have a row about 15 feet long and that is ample for two people fresh and some boxes in the freezer. Even that amount gets tedious to pick when you're busy.

    Dave is absolutely right about mixing the permanent with the transitory crops too. Your raspberries, for example, will need to be undisturbed, apart from weeding and mulching, for years to come. They will also need a strong, permanent trellis. There is good reason based on practicalities for the traditional method of having permanent crops in separate beds.

  • RedSun (Zone 6, NJ)
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    This vege/berry garden has bee in the work for months, with careful consideration. The plant sizing follow standard plant spacing and is for fully planted sizing. The actual planting will be certainly slightly smaller at any given time.

    1. Siting and orientation. Ideally, the orientation should be diagonal, or North to South next. But my property border is at the North, so I run my rows E-W.
    2. Sizing. My main concern is deer pressure. So I erect the deer fence. It would not make sense if I keep a couple of the fenced areas. The incremental cost for fencing is much smaller. So it makes sense to have a larger garden, instead of 3 smaller ones.
    3. Framework. The perennials and annuals are in separate beds, except the raspberries. The raspberries are in a 8' wide bed, too wide. So I plan to grow okra or Brussel sprout in front of the raspberry.
    4. All the 3 trellis systems will be permanent, with wood posts and some line posts. I'd rather set the framework at max size, instead of tearing it apart and enlarge it.
    5. The plants are not initially at the max size. The raspberry and blackberry will be at the 1/2 sizing. I'll either propagate more, or add more plants later.
    6. I do not expect planting at the max size at any time. I may not like the ones I planted; some may not adapt to my climate; some may die from weather or diseases, etc.
    7. After the perennials are placed, the rest will be used for annual veges. There is still a lot of space left. And I do not plan to grow too much annuals, just for ordinary consumption. I grew 12 hot peppers plants this year and we do not like frozen hot peppers.

    I do not mind for surplus small fruits. We have two refrigerators to use. We can always use the extra fruits for drinks, jam/jelly, juice, sauce, even dried fruits.

    We have a 3 acre land. Besides this garden, I grow 20 fruit trees, 16 blueberry bushes, and 4 beds outside the fenced area. The extra beds are for garlic, onion etc., relatively deer proof.

    Right now, I do not have room for kabocha and pumpkins. No room for watermelon. No room for asparagus. I really want to find room for asparagus. It receives deer pressure. But it also takes on valuable space. I'll probably want to grow like 25 crowns.

    Picking berries should not be very hard. The plants will be on trellis. And we are not going to pick all of them. We may have more blackberries than we can consume, but not the raspberry.

    I still need to tweak a few things. So valuable comments are always welcome. You can never have enough garden space....

  • theforgottenone1013 (SE MI zone 5b/6a)
    9 years ago

    "The perennials and annuals are in separate beds, except the raspberries. The raspberries are in an 8' wide bed, too wide. So I plan to grow okra or Brussel sprout in front of the raspberry."

    That might work for the first year but after that the raspberries absolutely will take over the rest of the bed, completely filling it if you let them. Yellow and red raspberries spread via underground roots and if you don't want an eight foot wide raspberry bed then you will have to either decrease the width of the bed or you will have to pull up or cultivate the suckers when they sprout (which would become tedious).

    "The plants are not initially at the max size. The raspberry and blackberry will be at the 1/2 sizing. I'll either propagate more, or add more plants later."

    Tip-layering works great for propagating blackberries and black raspberries. And as I have already said, yellow and red raspberries spread well by themselves.

    I don't think anyone is saying that you have to have separate fenced areas for your perennial and annual crops. Just that you shouldn't intersperse perennials and annuals together. Even if they have their own beds it would be best to keep the two types separate. Keep all your perennials in half the area, or a third, or whatever, and keep the annuals in the rest.

    As for your grapes, you can have the trellis anywhere from 2 feet off the ground (if you don't have any small, four-legged critters) to 10 feet high if you want. For grapes the height of the trellis is determined by the gardener.

    Rodney

  • RedSun (Zone 6, NJ)
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    After the trellis systems are installed, perennials stay permanently. Annuals will stay at the annual beds.

    Raspberry bushes will be controlled. Even summer and fall raspberry plants are separated. I'll let them spread along the trellis, but not become thicker, but just longer. They will stay close to the trellis.

    All the berry plants will be tied to the trellis. So air layering is allowed unless I let them to set roots.

    Grape and blackberry stay within their own beds, attached to the trellis. Only some large plants are allowed to stand before the raspberry bushes. It does not make sense to let raspberry grow into the 8' wide bed. It will be a jungle and I do not plan to install the double trellis.

    Even though all the plants stay in the same garden, perennials are annuals mostly stay within their own beds, or own sections. It just happens that my two wide rows are at the very back of the garden. I prefer to build extra wide beds to grow things like sunflower, corn and other real crops. Narrow beds just waste too much space with paths.

    So far, all three trellis systems are about the same height, but with the grape trellis stronger, more end post bracing.

    If I want to place the asparagus bed in the same area, I'd place it at the last row, behind grape and blackberry bushes. But the problem is that 8' maybe too wide for one single row, and too narrow for double rows? If so, I'll have to find another place, but then it will be exposed to deer population.

  • ceth_k
    9 years ago

    I would have to agree with Dave. Every single crop that was listed can easily take up all that space in your garden with just a very small number of the plant, and the garden will be far easier to take care of that way. Two crop types are the maximum for that garden size imho. One annual and one perennial. Or maybe one more annual, top.

    This post was edited by ceth_k on Mon, Nov 17, 14 at 7:06

  • chickenfreak
    9 years ago

    Re: "Two crop types are the maximum for that garden size imho."

    I'm befuddled. I've had community garden plots in the past, and people regularly grow ten or fifteen different things in their 12X25 plot. Sure, it would be less work to fill the OP's whole 95X35 space with raspberries, or tomatoes, or make it all one pumpkin patch, but I don't see it as actually impractical to grow several things.

    This post was edited by chickenfreak on Mon, Nov 24, 14 at 2:12