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chaven_gw

Beginner with a large garden

chaven
9 years ago

So my wife and I just moved into our new home in the country that includes a 46' x 26' vegetable garden (about 1,200 sqare feet). There is 6-7 ft high asparagus growing along the one end, but other than that, everything else was annuals that can be replaced next spring.

Neither of us have really any gardening experience, but we would love to make the most of this space and grow as much as we can manage. My question is, where on earth can we learn how to garden with this much space? I've spent the last few days browsing a variety of gardening websites, only to be completely overwhelmed by the seemingly endless (and often contradictory) advice out there...mulching, seed starting, transplanting, companion gardening, pest control...everybody seems to have a different idea on how things should be done.

Does anyone have any recommendations for a "one-stop-shop" resource to get all the information I need to start and manage a successful garden? Thanks in advance!

Comments (62)

  • queen_gardener
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Make that area into several Square Foot Gardens, or SFG's. You need to get that SFG book - library or buy it, but you need to check it out. Make several raised beds in manageable sizes, able to be mowed around, and start there while you learn. The SFG benefit is that you can reach into the garden from any side and be able to pull a weed from the center of the garden.
    You will find that as a beginner, having a big block of a garden makes it really hard with up-keep - just weeding alone. And If you try to till it up every year (not necessary) and all the other work involved, you'll get overwhelmed and put-off. My first garden was a huge long garden, it quickly became all weeds and went down hill fast. It reverted to grass, needless to say. Then we moved, and I started over! I was lucky to have an established garden around the house with some quality perennials and shrubs already in place. Now I'm expanding!
    As a beginner, you need to be able to have nice, neat, small manageable beds you can reach into and maintain with minimal effort. You will kill plants, you will have lots of pests and some diseases/mold/mildew, etc, it's a part of life and learning. You have to learn which plants like what, how each one's needs have to be met. So start small, get some good manure and compost, read lots of books. You will have to weed out the good information from the bad or dubious - what works for one person doesn't work for everyone, and location can change everything - not just across the country, but even in your own backyard!! You will have plants that love it under that tree, but will die under that other tree for seemingly no reason. Plants have minds of their own :-) And be careful about what plants you bring into your yard - check out if it is an aggressive spreader, if it is considered a noxious weed by your state. I am still a beginner, but I moved into this house and found these pretty daisies everywhere - Ox eye daisies - and they were nice at first, until they started taking over the world!!!!!!! I found out they are considered a noxious weed by my state, so I yanked them out whole-heartedly!!! The Shasta daisies can stay, but NOT those ox-eye daisies! I've learned how to identify them as sprouts, and save myself trouble. DO NOT LET WEEDS GO TO SEED! The sooner you can yank a weed, the better, but be careful you don't pull up your precious seedlings! It takes a while to be able to identify things, and I'm still learning that, too! Other aggressive plants I stay away from are Chameleon plant, Love in a Mist, and Ajuga. Purple Salvia Lyrata is a native that looks and acts like Ajuga. I advocate using as many native plants as you can! Better for the environment and ecosystems. I also advocate rain gardens - learn about those a.s.a.p.!!!
    You can add beauty and value to your home, and help sustain ecosystems, and get exercise, and help the environment all at one time!!! As you learn the ropes, you can make more and more gardens, and expand on existing ones, and cut into the grass more and more, which is a good thing!
    In my bigger garden, I just make paths lined with wet newspaper to block weeds with mulch over them, and I strategically put down stepping stones into the bigger gardens so that I can get in there and weed. You don't want to compact the soil or accidentally step on a self-sown seedling you wanted to keep!
    Wow, I could go on and on, but this site is really great for information!!! And it's great for trading plants and seeds, too! Just do a lot of reading, talk to your local nursery people but take what they say with a grain of salt - I used to work at nurseries, and I accidentally gave out wrong information a couple times because I was really really green then. It happens . . . And sometimes the workers don't know more than what's on the tag. But sometimes you have to just experiment on your own and find what works for you - you might have to dig up and move a plant 3 times before you find it's perfect home in your yard. True story. But once it's flourishing, you'll be so happy and proud! Just make sure you get plants suited to your area, your soil and moisture conditions, and your zone, that's why natives are perfect! They will require less water once established, too.
    OK, I'm totally going to stop typing now, but I could go on!

  • queen_gardener
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I just wanted to add: I agree and like Defrost49's suggestions!
    I don't find tomatoes challenging. I have been container growing them for years, but with HUGE pots, next year I will be able to plant them in the ground in a new SFG.
    And I HATE plastic weed blocks - DON'T DO IT!!!! I had to tear up a massive section of garden by the patio that had the black plastic crap under the mulch - it does NOT stop weeds!!!!!!! And it was killing the plants and shrubs that had neat little cut out holes for them - they were NOT getting enough water!!!! Now they are breathing a sigh of relief. Next spring, I will have to do the same in two other large gardens - so frustrated. There were weeds that had punctured a hole through with their roots, and there were weeds and ox eye daisies growing in the mulch on top of the plastic, eeking out an existence. It was back-breaking work to pull it up. The front will be worse, as there are plants planted in dirt on top of the black plastic (why???) and it is strangling the expensive azaleas with the tiny cut-out hole. In the back, the fancy daylilies have creeped over the plastic and are trying to spread, but are being similarly strangled. It doesn't work for me, and there are better ways of controlling weeds. Like the SFG!
    Go with the SFG. Get the SFG updated book by Mel Bartholomew. You need manageable, a SFG is manageable, and you want a one-stop source of info, there it is. He tells you everything! A great beginner book, wish I had gotten that book when I got my first house!!!

  • chaven
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Queen-Gardener, I like the idea of square foot gardening, but it seems crazy expensive! Not only would I have to purchase the building supplies to make the raised beds, but also the soil mixture to fill them with.

  • rhizo_1 (North AL) zone 7
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Zacky's suggestion of visiting your local extension office is a great one. At the very least, you'll be able to pick up a bunch of brochures and fact sheets at little or no cost. The best scenario would be that your county office is staffed with smart, interested professionals who will jump in and get you started in the right direction.

    Be sure to take advantage of the whole website to glean some useful information. You can also have a standard soil test done for only $9.00.
    Attached is a link that will help you locate your county office.

    So! Have you made a list of veggies you'd like to grow? Have you ordered a bunch of seed catalogs yet? They can be filled with useful information, too.

    Here is a link that might be useful: PSU Extension locations

  • chaven
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    rhizo_1, are seeds cheaper from catalogs, where I'd have to pay for shipping, or cheaper to buy at a big box store like Lowe's?

  • theforgottenone1013 (SE MI zone 5b/6a)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "So you don't recommend those wire cone-shaped things for supporting tomatoes?

    Indeterminate tomato plants are huge. They easily get 6 feet tall (and more) and are quite wide. If you use those style of "tomato cages" the plants will eventually topple the cages over creating a jungle. They need very sturdy supports. Or you can grow them unsupported and let them sprawl all over the place (not really recommended).

    Are seeds cheaper from catalogs, where I have to pay for shipping, or better to buy at a big box store like Lowe's?"

    If you order from seed companies you'll have a much, much larger selection and you'll usually get more seeds in a packet than if you bought them off a rack at a store. Nothing wrong with store bought seeds though.

    Rodney

  • ltilton
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    SFG has its enthusiasts, as we see, but as you realize, there's a lot of work and expense involved and without that, this kind of ultra-intensive gardening is prone to failure.

    You have a nice sized garden to work with, and plenty of room to grow plants conventionally.

  • glib
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    you can't do SFG until you got a handle on the weeds.

  • daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    " If you use those style of "tomato cages" the plants will eventually topple the cages over creating a jungle."

    I have been successful using a medium wire cage inverted on top of a large cage, and secured together with a few tie-wraps. (I suppose you could also put two large ones together.) The legs of the medium cage are sticking high up in the air. You end up with a real cage that is six feet tall. They've never "toppled" for me, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to have the thing anchored with a big stake, and make sure the legs at the bottom are all the way in the ground.

  • nancyjane_gardener
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I had to go raised beds due to the huge gopher population in the area and started with an 8x8' bed......Then I found this place and made it into 2- 3 1/2x8' beds!
    I pretty much added a 4x8 bed each year, with a couple of 3x3s and 3x6s in there for a little mix up! I also bought recently 3 3x8x1' raised up beds from a neighbor who moved to Maui (poor guys!)
    I now have the 3 raised up beds (which I'm still trying to get some success, bad soil), 4 4x8s 1 being a dedicated asparagus bed, 2 3x6s, 2 3x3s and other containers here and there.
    This has been about a 15 year journey!
    My advise is read read read! Use cardboard spiked with a garden fork so the soil can get some water, but weeds can't get through while you're planning things, plan what you want, start small, as stated above, plan your time! things can take some time! I'm recently retired, so I have all the time I want in the garden, but while I was working, I had to think about how much time I spent in the garden (a LOT!)
    You don't want to get overwhelmed, over weeded, over worked! Also to think of, in August, when it's the HOTTEST month of the year, there is processing all the produce! I'm so glad I can do it in the mornings when it's cool! When I was working, I had to do this on the weekend or at the end of the day when it was HOT!
    I'm NOT trying to discourage you by any means! Just trying to bop a little reality into your head and tell you to READ a bunch of stuff here while taking on this huge task!
    Baby step, baby steps! LOL Nancy

  • zzackey
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The tomato cages you buy at store are way too short for most tomato plants. I prefer to use one large heavy stake and tie the tomato up as it grows. That gives me easy access to the tomatoes. My husband makes his own cages from rolls of wire caging he buys at Tractor Supply or the hardware store. It makes it hard to see or pick the tomatoes, IMO. You can look up any info you want on EDIS. Just make sure you go the site for your state. It's not the easiest site to use, but the info has been university tested.

  • NHBabs z4b-5a NH
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I like many of the suggestions here. The Victory Garden is great for telling you what to do when, with the exception that you have to totally ignore everything he says about pesticides. I think a lot of what he suggested about pesticides are not available any more and there are now much safer choices for managing pests. The Johnny's Catalog is also a wealth of information, including such info as the optimum sprouting temperature of different seeds so that you don't plant your beans in cold soil for instance.

    As others have suggested, weed prevention is at least as important as removal. Mulch with an underlayment of multiple sheets of newspaper or cardboard will help keep the soil moist as well as keeping weeds down. My favorite tool for removing weeds in areas (usually unmulched) where they have sprouted but before they get more than a few days old is a shuffle AKA stirrup hoe since it cuts on the push and the pull, making weeding quick.

    You asked about removing weeds and old plants from the garden area. I would remove them since it will remove some of the weed seeds and also any diseased veggie plants and insect eggs that might be on them.

    The suggestion to plant a cover crop in any areas you aren't growing things in is good as well. It will help keep down weeds in those areas and also add nutrients to the soil. The soil is key to your plants growing well. I use organic supplements only such as compost, well-composted manures, green manures, and chopped leaves only, not added manufactured fertilizers. They tend to release nutrients more slowly than manufactured fertilizers and add organic matter as well, which helps keep moisture and nutrients available. Do get a soil test as others have suggested. It will tell you what, if anything, your garden needs.

    You don't need to build beds, but you do need to plan out bed areas and paths so you don't walk on your planted soil and cause it to compact. I heavily mulch my paths with wood chips so it keeps weeds down and looks different from the beds where I've planted so I know where to walk. My garden is large, like the one at your new home. I don't do SQF, but I do limit my bed width to about 4' so that I can reach into each bed without stepping onto it. My beds run across the width of the garden, which is east-west, both because that limits the length I have to walk around to get to the next path (20'), and also for more even sun throughout the garden.

    Rather than grow what others have listed, grow what you will eat. I started with tomatoes because I love fresh tomatoes. My list of veggies mostly includes things that we eat a lot of as well as a few things which I love (but DH doesn't) that I either eat raw (like snap peas) or I am willing to cook just for myself (like broccoli or sweet potatoes.) Decide over the winter what you want to grow, and read up on when and how to plant those crops. If they are available as transplants, for at least the first year, buy transplants (like tomatoes) since starting from seed is a whole 'nother step that I'd suggest avoiding as beginners. You asked about mail order vs store bought seed. Varieties tend to be more varied from mail order, and for me that's important because of my relatively short growing season. I choose varieties that are bred specifically to do well with our long daylight time but shorter growing season. Since you are farther south, that may be less important to you. I keep track of the ones that do best and that we particularly like the flavor of.

    One more piece of advice - not all bugs are bad bugs. If you see bugs in the garden, watch what they are doing and take photos to post and ask about IDs. Some will be eating your plants, but others will be preying on the bugs that eat your plants, so it pays to figure out which is which.

    As others have said, enjoy the process and expect to have some successes and some failures. Plant as much as you feel able to care for - only you know your willingness to put in time on a regular basis in the garden as well as how much time you have available. This forum is a great resource and checking out local garden clubs, master gardeners, extension service workshops, etc will get you help and answer questions.

  • RedSun (Zone 6, NJ)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That size of garden is not large. Depending on situation.

    The best way is to run to your public library. Get a few books on gardening. Try not to ask too many questions here since you'll get sometimes different opinions and that can confuse you. Books are better.

    Then go to Youtube to see some of the videos. But again, some of the stuff there is not very reliable. But you can see it.

    If you still have specific questions, ask here. But you'll have to know you doing before you jump to GW. It is not very good for newcomers, IMO.

  • elisa_z5
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    " I've spent the last few days browsing a variety of gardening websites, only to be completely overwhelmed by the seemingly endless (and often contradictory) advice out there...mulching, seed starting, transplanting, companion gardening, pest control...everybody seems to have a different idea on how things should be done."

    Ha -- and so this thread has turned into exactly that :)
    Which was to be expected, as there are as many "methods" as there are gardeners it seems.

    Before I give in to the temptation to add my own opinions to the mix. . . okay, just one -- use your native soil, no reason in the world to bother with the expense and work of building raised beds and adding bagged soil, unless you encounter some issue down the road that makes that seem necessary.

    Just jump in a have fun. Appreciate what works, keep notes on what does work and what doesn't (for YOU). It sounds like a wonderful adventure -- moving to the country and finding an established garden area? How cool is that?

    I agree with RedSun -- GW is great for specific questions, but even then you'll find lots of differing opinions. Take what you like and leave the rest.

    Happy gardening! You can't do it wrong -- there's always next year.

  • daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think the lesson here is that there really isn't a RIGHT WAY. There are better ways, and there are worse ways, and it often depends on the specific conditions that you're working with. That's the delusion of a "one stop shop". It might be the wrong stop for you. That's where contradictory advice comes from. Your experience will speak to you better than a lot of us will here. Gardening is a learning process, and the best way to go it is just jump in and do it. With the space you have, you have the luxury of trying different things in different places. See what works for you, and tell us about it.

    But yes, neighbors (maybe neighborhood garden clubs) and local ag schools are the best sources of info. Those are folks who have what you have, and know what you're up against.

  • glib
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Rather than grow what others have listed, grow what you will eat."

    This is the opinion of someone who has forgotten his or her beginnings. You will eat what you can grow. I don't want to start a 100 posts subthread, but everyone here has been converted by a homegrown vegetable that he/she used to despise. For me it has been winter squash, cabbage, beets, turnips, rutabaga, a whole new set of vegetables, tried once, installed forever. And they feed me a good 11 months a year, as opposed to, say, tomatoes which feed me for about 45 days (sure, I freeze some, but not really something that supports me or the family). The only vegetables I don't like are those that do not give me a crop.

  • tete_a_tete
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think start small too, but that doesn't mean to keep away from certain things, just choose what you think you can manage.

    You could plant a pumkin vine and let it cover a lot of the area, if you like pumpkin. I do.

    A few tomato plants too. A bit of this and a bit of that.

    The most important thing in life is, I think, inspiration and the will to do something. Who cares if you do it wrongly? I have spent yeeeeaaaars not doing things because I didn't want to do them badly. How silly is that???

    My mother told me recently that her mother was always quoting some old Latin thing (I don't know what it is in Latin), but she was misquoting. She would say, "If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing well." Yes, we all know that saying. But guess what!!?!?!??! Apparently this is NOT the correct saying. My mother, at the age of 88, has discovered that the saying is, in fact, 'Just do it'. Yes, it has been stolen for a slogan by a well-known company.

    So, that's my adice. Just do it. Learn as you go. And enjoy your wonderful huge vegetable patch.

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    i have NOT read all the replies ...

    here is my idea ... so you dont get overwhelmed ... and might actually enjoy it all ...

    divide it into quarters ...

    plan and plant one area in veg ...

    plan a plant a second in flowers ....

    the third area... learn to amend and perfect the soil for year two ... or fall planting ....

    and in the final one.. start a compost area ... learn how to make black gold ...

    4 projects.. differing completely ... and hopefully will teach you. .in one season.. more than i learned in a decade ....

    and a forum for each topic ...

    if you do it all in say.. veg.. and somehow fail ... or become overwhelmed... you could end up ' having a helical ridge or thread running around the outside.' .. see link ... lol .... soil amendments.. etc ...

    so if bugs from mars attack.. and your veg ends up destroyed... then you at least have compost.. which involves heaping things into a pile.. and then drinking beer for weeks on end.. while it rots ...

    and even if the veg fail.. flowers being so divergent.. might not.. so you have something to look at while drinking beer and composting ....

    all the while.. amending the last plot.. tilling.. adding compost .... .soil amendments.. etc ...

    just a thought ...

    ken

    Here is a link that might be useful: link

  • pnbrown
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Really, gardens only fail if the gardener will not weed (in which case the person is not a gardener), or if it were to stop raining for 4 or 5 months solid.

  • nancyjane_gardener
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It doesn't rain here for 6 months of the year and I get a pretty good garden!
    I'm on a well, though, so I can water as I want. Nancy

  • Deeby
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I really like the idea of a bit of this and a bit of that. If I could plant in the ground rather than in containers that's what I'd do.

  • zeedman Zone 5 Wisconsin
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My 2 c's to a beginning gardener... apologies in advance for the length.

    I'll have to agree with those who recommend starting small, especially if the soil will be worked by hand - it can be a lot of work. In terms of time, think of a large garden as a dog that you only have for half of the year... it needs attention, feeding, and cleaning up after, and not always at times that are convenient for you. It takes some getting used to.

    Count me among those who recommend against those "tomato cages" sold in box stores... at least not for tomatoes. They are not entirely useless though, the smaller ones can be good support for pepper plants.

    I too recommend the use of a weed block to keep weeds down (especially for the first year) if weeds were allowed to go to seed before you moved in. I am not a fan of the black plastic either, and would instead recommend the use of the dark black landscape fabric (or the woven plastic weed barrier, if you can find it), with straw on top of that for added light blockage (and drier footing). Newspapers or corrugated board can work well too, provided you are not in a windy area, or that you weigh or stake them down... you don't want paper blowing onto your neighbor's property.

    Till, no till, square foot - as Danindirt mentioned, there is not really one "right" way, nor are there "wrong" ways, just different gardening philosophies, each of which has advantages in certain situations. Use whatever technique, or combination of them, works for you, and don't be afraid to experiment. I second his words of caution regarding "one stop shops"... be leery of information from sources which treat a single technique with religious fervor, and criticize any technique but their own.

    If you choose to compost, it is a good idea to not do so in or near your garden, since the pile can become a shelter for insects, slugs, and rodents. The same can be said of wood piles or rock piles, especially in rural areas.

    For a rural garden, it is virtually guaranteed that you will need some type of fencing. If the property is not already fenced to keep out the local herbivore population, you will probably want to put a fence around the garden. Chicken wire low & electric fencing high has worked well for me. Animals can be one of the most frustrating problems encountered by gardeners; while it is nearly impossible to keep them all out all of the time, you want to prevent the most serious damage.

    As an organic gardener, I recommend against using chemicals on your vegetable garden, since one of the best things about growing your own food is knowing what is not in it. There are organic solutions for most common garden problems. That being said... I recognize that not everyone will choose that route. If you choose to use chemical fertilizers, get a soil test first, and use a fertilizer that most closely matches your soil deficiencies, and the crops you intend to grow. If it becomes necessary to use pesticides, be sure to do your research... use something you are comfortable with, use it only on the crops recommended, and use it as little as possible.

    Be prepared mentally for failures, we all have them. Some you can learn from, and some (like the weather) you just need to accept. Have a backup plan - such as extra seed - in case you lose the first planting, and diversify what you choose to grow. On any given year, I have both successes & failures; if you get a year where everything does well, count your blessings. Still, there will be times when all you can do is say "I'll try again next year"... don't get discouraged.

    I concur with those who have recommended that you contact your local agricultural Extension office, they can be a great resource; they might be able to provide info on planting dates & varieties best suited to your location. The Extension in my state offers a wide array of publications. The Pennsylvania Extension also operates a Master Gardener program, which might be helpful... at the very least, it might let you network with experienced gardeners in your area.

  • defrost49
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sometimes I will buy seed from a big box. Ocean State Job Lots heavily discounts Burpee seed BUT I think Fedco offers great variety, good explanations in their catalog, and good price. You can get a discount from Fedco is you do a group buy. Last year I found a group when I attended a lecture on gardening and the speaker said she was organizing the group.
    I like Johnny's Seeds because they specialize in northern varieties. I like Baker Creek because they carry unusual varieties but I need to avoid things that need a long growing season.

    I have seen Square Foot Gardening and Victory Gardening books at used bookstores (original versions, not updated volumes). Also check your library and perhaps utilize inter-library loan if need be.

    I think Square Foot is good for recommendations on size of beds and although my first garden did have some raised beds with wood sides, my current garden just has beds which might be higher than surrounding grass or paths because of using Lasagna Gardening techniques. I like the 4x8 foot size although I have some wider beds with 4 foot wide planting areas and small paths in between. We like to have a wide grassy area to give access by tractor and garden cart as main travel area.

    The scuffle hoe is a good recommendation but I tend to use a hand weeder most of the time. A cobra head is a good example but you might have to order a decent hand weeder and expect to pay around $30. I have no idea why hardware stores and farm stores don't carry good hand weeders. I have runner type weeds (like witch grass) and my weeder helps me get a lot of those underground roots. Also necessary, a good pair of gloves. I like the cheap ones with rubberized palms and fingers that also help get a good grip on weeds.

    Starting out with just a few things you really like to eat and keeping things simple might be a good idea. Maybe just tomatoes and green beans.

    Good luck and have fun. When you realize you like checking for bad bugs (ie potato beetles) and keeping the garden looking pretty good, I think that's when you realize you enjoy it.

  • grandad_2003
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just want to repeat the comment by Queen-Gardener & others about the need to keep weeds from going to seed. IMO without proper weed control, weeding would the most time spent in the garden. How you do this will be your choice - leaves, plastic, straw, paper, the unpopular chemicals, other? ...or a combination there-of. So if you decide to idle a portion of your garden, you will do yourself a favor for future use by covering it to prevent weed growth.

  • zzackey
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I worked in a garden center up north for 4 years in the 80's. I read the Victory Garden books almost every night. I love that it was on a monthly plan. Lots of nice pictures, too. I would try Amazon.com or Abe's books for used books. It tells you the quality of the book. Shipping is usually about 4 bucks and the cost of the book is cheaper. Good luck and Happy Gardening! I'm still learning rights and wrongs after 35 years of working with plants and gardening.

  • thepodpiper
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    There are many good suggestions here but the thing you have to take into account is, what works for one may not work well for someone else.

    If you enjoy tomatoes I would suggest growing them right from the start.

    Research everything independently, if you want to grow tomatoes do lots of research on tomatoes specifically etc. etc. Do not clump all of your research into gardening as a whole.

    Mulching to keep weeds down can be done many different ways. My mulch of choice is Black plastic but I have a drip system throughout my whole garden and every single plant has its own dripper. This works well for me and would not do it any other way.

    For me GardenWeb forums have been "The Best" source of info on the web but do not limit your searches to one site.

    If you have the time look at the pics on the link below and you just might find a few ideas that will help.

    Here is a link that might be useful: garden pics

  • tete_a_tete
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I started the other day to write a follow-up to my post but got bogged down in detail.

    But, I must rush in here and tie your hands behind your back so that you don't go out and buy black plastic or so-called weed mat or weed block, whatever weed block is. I am certain I will not like weed block.

    Anything that weeds won't like, your veggies won't like. (They might not say anything, but they won't like it.) Worms won't like it. All sorts of microscopic greeblies won't like it.

    Whenever I see a tell-tale corner of black plastic/weed mat sticking out from somewhere, inwardly I sink. For that garden is missing out.

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    and keep in mind... there are certain crops ... that can take up a lot of space ... such as pumpkin.. watermelon.. squash and zuki ...

    so unlike the rest of us... lol.. trying to squeeze them into 10 sf ft ... you can plant them in the requisite 100 sq ft ... and do better ...

    this is offered ... again ... to get you to limit your first experience of the stuff that needs more care.. while giving big gobs of space to space eating plants ...

    i am sure.. eventually.. you will get rid of watermelon ... and many of the others... as the payback might not be worthy of the space given ... as you learn ... [watermelon has an extremely long time.. from seed to result... and often.. e.g. in MI .... you cant squeeze in .. the requisite days.. between the last frost.. and the next frost frost .. so why bother .. so many of us gave up ... if that makes sense]

    ken

  • glib
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey, he has weeds. and I can guarantee that if you put down weed block, and not make holes, nothing will grow. But when you have weeds you need to hit reset. Sure, it can be done with cardboard (veggies will not like cardboard either, unless you make holes for them).

  • beesneeds
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'll toss in my two pennies, lol.

    First, don't let the garden overwhelm you. You got a nice big space, don't feel like you have to fill it up entirely in your first go. Whatever you don't use, either mulch deep, plastic or cardboard cover, or plant in a cover crop.

    Second, weed, weed, weed. If you got a nice plot now, keep it that way, and don't let those darn things overtake your garden. It's easier to keep up a plot than it is to reclaim a plot. Consider composting what has not gone to seed- consider somewhere else to dump or destroy what has gone to seed.

    Third- plant what you love. And plant what you will eat- don't feel like you need to plant 20 tomatoes just because you have the space for them, then realize you only can eat 10 plants worth. Give those fewer plants more room instead. Keep in mind that some plants can suck up a ton of space, like melons and squash. Even bush varieties can have some healthy spread to them.

    I would recommend not worrying too much about things like succession planting, companion planting, and other "more advanced" things yet. Get used to your garden first.

    I would also recommend that you get your soil tested before amending it- it might be you have a wonderful healthy plot, it might be that you have some things sorely lacking.

    Unless you are feeling pretty gungho and have the setup for it, try using transplants for stuff like tomatoes and peppers. Starting from seed is kind of it's own gardening process, and can be a bit much for a beginner gardener.

  • thepodpiper
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    tete a tete, Do not be so quick to condemn something because it does not work for you. I think it is unfair to a newbie who is looking to learn.

    Take a look at some of the pics on my other post and you might change your mind.

  • glib
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Looks like pod piper got a crop, despite the horrible black plastic (which is not even weed block, being impermeable to water).

  • daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, we've already seen some of that "religious fervor" here. Beware.

    Although a local ag school is a great resource, you might not do better than looking down the street and see who has a nice vegetable garden. Then ask them -- "Hey, I've got a big lot -- what do you think I should do with it?" Add a grain of salt and some healthy skepticism to the advice you get, and go forth. You could ask at a local nursery, but they'll just try to sell you stuff.

    I should underscore the comment you got here about fencing. Especially if you're in a rural area, you might lose the whole shebang if you're underprotected. That's a question that should be easy to answer by those who do gardening in your locale. So don't run out and build a fence. Run out and learn whether you need to build a fence.

  • thepodpiper
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey Ken adrian we are not to far apart, what types of probs are you having growing watermelons? If you do not mind me asking.

  • tete_a_tete
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    glib, what's wrong with a few weeds? Or even lots and lots of weeds. You need to look at weeds differently.

    They can be green manure.

  • pnbrown
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Regarding weed "block", at my friend's little greenhouse there is currently an incredible huge parsley plant growing out of a crack between two of those thick rubber mats. It grew all through the summer with no irrigation, due to the fact that has an immense root zone with zero competition.

  • glib
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    weeds are a lot of work. there is only so much dandelion that you can eat, and I do eat it. In fact, in an established garden weeds can be 80% of the work if you lose control.

  • glib
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    we are quibbling over nothing, anyway. The real solution to weeds is chickens. My next garden will be chicken rotation paddocks.

  • tete_a_tete
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You're right. Chickens would be excellent for that. I love chooks, the sounds of chooks, the sight of chooks, and all the good things that chooks do.

  • chickenfreak
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This winter, I'm setting up a larger garden than I've ever had before--several times the largest garden I'd ever had in about fifteen years of gardening. I have big plans for next year. We'll see how they work out.

    I've experimented with weed fabric (not the water-impervious plastic, but the woven stuff) in past years and had pretty decent results. Tomatoes through fabric at a wide dryfarm spacing (about thirty square feet per tomato) and unwatered after June produced very well. Bush beans at roughly eighteen inch spacing made huge productive plants. Currants grew happily through fabric. Strawberries didn't object to the fabric, but I planted them too close and got too many weeds through the many planting holes--I'll be making a fresh bed at a much wider spacing. Onions through fabric in groups of four plants at...er...twelve inch spacing? did very well.

    So this year I'm using the weed barrier on a much larger scale. I won't know until next year whether this works for me. And I won't know for several years how the fabric will hold up long term, though I do know that some of the same brand has held up for three years without mulch and without any noticeable breakdown.

    In addition to the weed barrier, my other labor reduction strategies/plans include:

    - More perennials, some of them ornamental. Currants and strawberries (already growing). Raspberries. Blueberries (if I get the soil amended). Perennial herbs. Roses. Artichokes. Perennial cutting flowers.

    - Wide, wide spacing, to minimize holes through the fabric and to experiment with dry farm spacing, and because the space is there. I'll be repeating some of the successes from above, and trying more experiments.

    - Big plants, again at wide spacing. I plan to plant pumpkins, watermelons, Armenian cucumbers, and big bush zucchini.

    - If I knew I'd be in town at the right moment to eat it, I'd grow corn again, at an eighteen inch spacing. It did very well two years ago at that spacing without decent weed control; I expect that it would do even better growing through fabric.

    - Simplification in every way. I'm not growing anything this year that requires that I be in town during a specific week. I'm growing big blocks of one plant instead of fancy interplanting schemes. The dryfarming already describes makes things more resilient--when plants are surviving on soil moisture, it doesn't matter if I can't show up, because I don't need to water. I'm not growing things that need stakes or supports; those dryfarmed tomatoes just crawled around on the ground.

    NEXT year (2016), if this year (2015) isn't a disaster, I'll start re-adding complexity. But this year, I'm focusing on minimum labor.

    This post was edited by chickenfreak on Mon, Nov 24, 14 at 1:55

  • pnbrown
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I can attest that in large gardens maintained by one person (me) and limited mechanicals, weeds are the number one limitation to production.

  • queen_gardener
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Chickens!!!! Yes!!!!!!! They eat bugs AND weeds!!!! And your crops . . . but if you keep them fenced, either the plants or the chickens, you'll be fine! Make chicken tunnels - CHUNNELS!!!!!! (I didn't make that up, btw!)

    And you don't have to fill a SFG with bagged soil. Dig a pond, build a compost pile, LOL. Working with native soil as much as possible is best. Sometimes you can get free/cheap wood and building materials. In the SFG book, he totally advocates visiting a building site and asking the foreman for free wood. I just think having small, manageable squares and rectangles you can reach into is best, but it doesn't HAVE to be in a raised bed. If it is a raised bed, you can amend the soil because you're adding the soil in. Otherwise, I would say lasagna compost your growing area, and make weed-proof paths with lots of layers of cardboard and newspaper covered with wood chips, like Nhbabs posted.

    Best of luck! Read lots! I actually just got the Victory Garden book out of the library last week, and haven't read it yet. I got a huge stack - two feet high - like I always do! I just read and read and skim and wow look at that pretty picture!!! :-) I have also read The No Work Garden, now that's one where I could take a few and leave a lot of the suggestions, but it was worth the time to look at it. I can't garden like that, but maybe you could.

    As to where you get your seeds - you can look at it this way: if it costs you about $5 in gas to get to a store, or something equivalent to get something shipped, you're even. Or you could sign up on the Newbie trading forum where they give out seeds for SASE. But I DO agree about starting with transplants as much as possible your first few years. I have had problems with damping off and lost entire packs of seeds because I didn't hold any back - discouraging. So I mostly direct sow now. That, and my kids who like to "garden" and "help" mommy's seedlings in their tiny pots, or knock them over. But the kids are learning, too! :-)

    I like the analogy of the garden being like a dog you have for part of the year, perfect!!!

  • daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have to say that while chickens might be a good idea in the long run, it's not advice I'd give to a first-time gardener, who will have LOTS more to worry about than chickens, which are a major effort in and of themselves, certainly to get started. A first-time gardener is quite likely to be a first-time chicken farmer as well. We're trying to make things easier, not harder.

    Also, 1200 square feet won't support very many chickens. Maybe one?

  • karoliberty OKC zone 7a
    8 years ago

    As a fairly new gardener (<3 years) with a fairly decent plot in the city (14' x 17' this year), this thread is hilarious.

    I'm hoping OP chaven made the switch over to Houzz and can update us on how it's going so far this spring!!

  • zzackey
    8 years ago

    I know this is an old post, but there is a wealth of knowledge here. My husband lets one part of our lawn get rather tall. He lets the grass dry for one day and then rakes it up. He uses it for mulch in our garden.We have very few weeds and the ones we do have are very easy to pull out. I'd be afraid to use plastic or cardboard this far south. I don't need tiny bits of it blowing around when it disintegrates. We use abebooks.com or Amazon to buy used gardening books. The University of Florida site is at EDIS. I think it should be that way in every state. Kinda informative, but not user friendly. I just keep googling until I find something that is good for my zone.

  • theforgottenone1013 (SE MI zone 5b/6a)
    8 years ago

    karoliberty- 14'x17' isn't that large at 238 square feet and in my opinion is a good size for a beginner. It's big enough to get good harvests but still easy to care for. The OP's garden is 5 times the size of yours. (Hence why I said in my initial comment that reducing the size would be of benefit, which was then taken the wrong way.)

    Rodney

  • tete_a_tete
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Don't worry Rodney. A rant about chickens got a bit out of hand. I don't really think that the OP should saddle him or herself with them because chickens are only for the chicken-hearted. You either love them or loath them. But in a whopping huge area, a brilliant system for rotational vegetables and chickens could be great. For chicken lovers.

    zzackey, I've never used cardboard but I think the idea would be to cover the cardboard with other stuff - grass clippings, leaves from deciduous trees, manure, straw (whatever is on hand or easily collected). Cardgboard would certainly otherwise be a hazzard, flying onto the windshields of passing cars for example.

    I read somewhere ( http://permies.com/t/15510/woodland/Cooch-Couch-Grass-site-wanting ) that a method of getting rid of couch (Bermuda) grass is to first put down a layer of newspaper, then all the other stuff. This blocks the light. I suspect the newspaper (and cardboard) would prevent the couch grass from growing into the mulch. Yes, I know this is a thread about veggie gardens, not the dreaded couch, but that's where I think that newspaper and or cardboard would be so beneficial. (I've tried to block couch without it. It doesn't work. There is something about newspaper that doesn't let the plants through. Moisture, though (I hope) can penetrate.

  • zzackey
    8 years ago

    I understand, tete a tete. I know people here that use cardboard boxes and cereal boxes. It's just not for me. You have a funny sense of humor. My garden is too far from the road to hit a wind shield.

  • pnbrown
    8 years ago

    I use cardboard hugely in my FL gardens - it is ideal for killing patches of bahia, cardboard on the grass and then I put a thick layer of wood chips or cut grass on top of it. A year later the cardboard is vanished.

  • zzackey
    8 years ago

    That's good to know pnbrown. You've changed my thinking somewhat on using cardboard.

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