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Impatient newbie on fall crops

Posted by colmjkenny San Diego (My Page) on
Tue, Nov 3, 09 at 22:38

Hello,

I am in San Diego. We turned part of our lawn into a garden in June. The original soil was incredibly compacted and lacking in organic material. We brought in 2 flatbed loads of compost for 300 sf. an added some Dr Earth and occassional fish emulsion. We had success with arrugala, lettuce, radishes, sweet potatos, and tomatos. Not so much success with squash, pole and bush beans, carrot, beats, and peppers.

In mid-Sept we pulled everything out, brought in another 2 loads of compost, and replanted direct sow. Everything I planted was recommended by various regional guides (OC Register, San Diego Garden, various gardeners I know, etc.) Here's where we're at at the end of October (about 6 weeks in):

Bed 1- Peas seem to be growing and the trellis is p for them to start climbing. Fava and lima beans are coming in

Bed 2- Spinach hasn't sprouted at all. Lettuce has sprouted but no plant has progressed past a pinky nail-sized leaf. Same deal with the arrugala except for one plant that seems to be growning slowly.

Bed 3- Radishes seem to be doing well. Beats and carrots doing about same as before- srpout but don;t really grow.

Bed 4- Mix of herbs (mint, cumin, rosemary, majoram, etc) and flowers (California poppy, calendulas) have sprouted but not really grown past an inch tall.

Bed 5- 2 types of kale and swiss chard- very little sprouting, and nothing grown above an inch.

So, 6 weeks in, is this stuff stunting, or do I need to be more patient? They didn't seem to be doing much when the weather was still warm, and now it's getting into the 40s at night.

Please let me know if you have any advice, thoughts, or questions that might help better inform me.

Thanks


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Impatient newbie on fall crops

After 6 weeks you should be seeing much more growth on the leafy greens at least. If the peas and beans are doing ok but the rest isn't then it is a good indication of a nitrogen insufficiency since legumes pull theirs from the air.

Another possibility is the pH may be way out of kilter so the nutrients in the soil aren't available to the plants. All depends on the quality of your compost - broad range of quality if you don't make it yourself.

Try giving the leafy greens a diluted dose of a quick-fix fert like Miracle Grow and see what happens. If they kick into high gear then you know the over-all problem is that nitrogen is needed. But go easy on feeding any of the legumes or you'll just get lots of leaves with little peas or beans. Same for the radishes and beets - they aren't lovers of nitrogen.

If not then you need to get the pH adjusted. That will require a pro soil test, which is always a good idea under any circumstances.

Good luck.

Dave


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RE: Impatient newbie on fall crops

Hi, Kenny! Assuming your garden is getting adequate water and full sun, I think you would find a sidedressing of bloodmeal and bonemeal very helpful. You may also wish to have your soil tested for other nutritional deficiences. Sometimes the shortage of a micronutrient, like borax or magneseum, will stop a garden in its tracks. Although rich compost is the numero uno planting medium, the fact that you had it trucked in rather than made on site leaves me with misgivings about its completeness. Misterbaby.


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RE: Impatient newbie on fall crops

Thanks for the responses.

The compost is made by our local municipal yard waste recycler, so it is probably carbon heavy, but as I said I'm a newbie. I get it b/c it is only $5 for a truckload and I needed a lot of compost.

I have fish emulsion and Dr. Earth for vegetables, which I believe is 5% Nitrogen, 7% Phosphorous, and 4% potash. This is about all I have to work with as between the irrigation system and seeds my garden budget is speant. I have some homemade compost (lots of veggies and coffee grounds) but it's probably not enough to do more than a light dressing on the 5 beds.

How much does it cost to have the soil tested, and are there cheap DIY kits? For pH can I just buy some litmus strip and squeeze some soil against them?

I'll try side dressing with the Dr. Earth this weekend.

Thanks again!


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RE: Impatient newbie on fall crops

Compost is normally a soil amender not a medium by itself.
Another issue, as pointed out, is the PH and nutrients.
Composts (those made from trees, vegetables, leaves..) tend to be way to acidic. To verify this, a soil test is necessary. Also, although compost and organic matter do have nutrients but they will not be available as quickly. What I would do is to sprinkle some all purpos(like 10-10-10) fertilizer or manure, if you are an organic puritan.


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RE: six(6) weeks from seeds?

Ok! 6 weeks from seeds is not a long time. Some seeds will take a couple of weeks just to germinate. And then the initial growth will be slow in cooler weather. I think fall crops in general tend to be slow growers, as opposed to spring crops that take off as weather warms up.
Luckily, San Diego has a nice fall/winter weather, perfect for fall crops. Here in this part of Georgia, only some of the fall crops do well, like radishes, mustard greens, onions. But lettuces grow very slowly so do beets, chards and cabbages, even though we have average day highs of near 70F so far. But it drops to low 40s, F at nights.An almost a 30 degrees drop, a sharp drop.
So, you should be doing well in SanDiego. My brother lives over there. That is why I know a little bit about SD.


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RE: Impatient newbie on fall crops

Kenny, get in touch with your county extension service to have your soil tested. They'll give you a complete workup on nutrients and pH. Don't waste your money on DIY gizmos. The extension service will charge you something in the range of $10-25, depending on the evaluations requested. Misterbaby.


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RE: Impatient newbie on fall crops

  • Posted by glib 5.5 (My Page) on
    Thu, Nov 5, 09 at 22:31

Not always. My guess is that the local city compost is made mostly with leaves, but for sure the pH is 8.2. They give you a fact sheet that says 8.2, and I measured it to be between 8 and 8.5. That is fine around here, with soils being mostly acid.

If you add that compost to San Diego soil, you may be well over 8, and nothing will grow much (I note that a high pH typically inhibits N absorption, so some facts on the ground are consistent with the hypothesis). I second the test soil. A good, mild, long term acidifier is wood chip mulch, though that prevents direct seeding.

Now, to the PO: there are some veggies that will do well in incredibly heavy soil, learn to love them. Carrots are not one of them. Fava, radicchio, cardoon, and brassicas are my best winter performers in heavy clay. Chard, beet, and brassicas are my best winter high pH performers (around here, they demand quite a bit of wood ash on the side), so you could get some orientation by comparing growth rates of indicator veggies.

It is a good idea to have some unfinished, fairly green compost (ground coffee is good, but I prefer decomposed kitchen scraps which have just stopped smelling) in heavy beds at all times to keep a high earthworm population. Over the years, they will turn the soil very well for you. I assume you have had abundant rains, some seeds really want that to germinate vigorously.


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RE: Impatient newbie on fall crops

Compost made from leaves, garden waste make a PH over 8???
I have been adding lots and lots of fall and rotted leaves to my clay native soil and also add wood ash and some lime but still the PH is little over 6. Leaves and some pine needles have been my only source of soil amendments. Now my soil has very rich dark color and no sign of that redness.
So, to me this is amazing that leaves are so sweet. I always thought that leaves and the top soil around the trees are richly acidic. I guess I learned something today.
Thanks.


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RE: Impatient newbie on fall crops

That is extremely high. Leaves are naturally slightly acidic alth0 the pH varies greatly with the type of leaves. According to The U of Illinois, composting elevates the pH toward neutral. Bear in mind that municipal compost can contain all sorts of things ranging from grass clippings to sewage sludge. To get a pH over 8 would seem to indicate that that they are augmenting with a pretty basic (high pH) material. Even ground limestone only goes to 7. http://www.gardeners.com/Leaf-Mold/leafmoldlp,default,pg.html http://www.organicgardening.com/feature/0,7518,s1-3-79-1273,00.html http://solutions.psu.edu/Horticulture_Gardening_Landscaping_338.htm

Here is a link that might be useful: Leaf compost.


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RE: Impatient newbie on fall crops

  • Posted by glib 5.5 (My Page) on
    Fri, Nov 6, 09 at 17:25

I have no explanation for it, of course, and your objections are the same I had. I have made compost on my own for years, and I always assumed what you assume. This was the first and olny time I bought any sort of compost. And all the evidence I have with my homemade compost is that it is acidic when using wood chips or pine needles, and closer to neutral when using maple leaves, kitchen scraps, or manure.

It is possible that they mix other things in there, possibly wood ash. Stuff grows well in it, in the first season without any fertilizer.


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RE: Impatient newbie on fall crops

Farmerdilla,
You are right. Some municipal/county governments process trash and sludge and give it away free to the residents.
Around here COBB county(GA) has such programm. But I would not add that trash compost to my veggies garden. Those who use it, apply to trees, shrubs and other landscaping purposes. But there are municipalities that just process vegetations and sell it at reasonable cost to residents. I know one such municipality, that is the city of Westport in CT. Landscapers and home owners take garden waste/tree tops etc to the city's natural items dump. There is no charge. They also have a differen trash dump at different location. So we see that there are different systems.
So I am glad that you clarified the PH issue. Thanks.
Cyrus


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RE: Impatient newbie on fall crops

  • Posted by dicot Los Angeles (My Page) on
    Sat, Nov 7, 09 at 3:55

My guess is that Cyrus had it right at first, that compost is sometimes an insufficient growing medium and needs to be mixed with the native soil (which sounds like it has a high % of clay) pretty thoroughly. Also, raised beds may help with the compacted soil issue.

It was too hot for the spinach and lettuce in Sept/Oct, try again now. Also, there's a lot to be said for germinating some seeds in sterile soil in flats or other containers. For ones better directly seeded, try soaking the larger seeds (such as peas & beets) for an hour before planting). Here's a schedule for when to plant veggies in SD.

Here is a link that might be useful: Vegetable Planting Schedule


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