OD, the comment about the landscape being expensive threw me because there's not anything out of the ordinary for a typical suburban backyard landscape. The planting has a few more than average trees as the owner wishes to establish a woodland appearance to portions of the back yard. He plans to use small material and do it as he can so it's not a significant cost ... not anything like having it done by a professional contractor with larger plant material. The deck at the house was existing and the one by the pool is "by owner" so it's as much or little as he wishes. (It's finished now.) The hardscaping at the fire pit is aggregate if memory serves so it doesn't get any lower cost that ... other than bare dirt. Not sure what the "mad curves" you refer to are, but I can't see a great additional cost in any of the curved edges of the landscape beds as they are trench edged. I suggested a brick or paver walkway at one point, but don't know what the OP will end up really doing for that. If one does it as a DIY project, it can be quite affordable. I know in my own DIY landscape projects I can put a yard together for 1/10 the cost of a professional job. I still get a professional quality job, hardscape included. It just takes longer. Of course, that's not counting my time or labor!

Thanks both Yardvaark and Oceandweller on the comments. We understand that our plan isn't an "overnight fix" but rather an evolving "living" plan. Last year we probably spent approximately $200 on all plants. We planted bare root river birch and redbud trees purchased from Coldstream nursery (which I highly recommend). The redbuds tripled in size and the river birches doubled. Keep in mind that we had a terribly hot and dry summer also. We did not lose one of these trees. The rest of the plants were donated or purchased from an online nursery or Menards,

We want diversity in our yard and like Yaardvark previously stated, are striving for a woodsy "Northwoods" feel". The only direction we really need privacy at this point is to the north. The lots behind us have still not been developed and the neighbors to the south are older and are hardly ever outside. The river birch area will fill in fairly quickly and I plan on rebuilding the fence in the area (making it a foot talled and less space between the pickets).

To be honest, I am really enjoying the process. There is a certain level of satisfaction in planting small trees/shrubs and watching them grow and mature. Maybe that's not the most functional approach but it's become a bit of a hobby too. Anyway, we are satisfied with our progress and that's what matters most.

This post was edited by pmsmith2032 on Wed, Mar 6, 13 at 14:21

Nothing to add except I love what you are doing and your attitude is the best! Enjoy. It won't be all that long before your yard is beautiful and private! Hope you keep everyone posted over the years, even lurkers like me!

pmsmith2032, I like that ... "living" plan! :-)

It's good to hear your comments and especially that you are enjoying the process. That it's become "a bit of a hobby" is an early warning sign of possible, oncoming plant/yard-improvement addiction. As the yard comes together, you may conclude it's worth investing even more $ and more time in your little spot of Paradise. There is a lot of satisfaction in creating a pleasant place to be. Hope you keep enjoying it more and more!

I just ordered and received ten small 'Skyrocket' junipers (about a foot tall). How should I layout them out when I plant them? Should I plant them in a 'L' shape along the back corner of our backyard (south east corner behind pool) to border the fence? Or should they be planted in a more varied, clump configuration? Thanks in advance!

I think a simple, architectural, straightforward L-shape--as a screening wall--@ the fence corner would be the better way to use them long term. Centers at 30" to 36" spacing & 2' away from the fence.

Thanks! Now I just need to wait until the ground thaws.

It's been awhile since I've been on but have made quite a bit of progress on my plan above (I will post some pictures soon). One question I do have though is how to layout low voltage lighting based on my plan. I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask or not. Thanks!

Good to hear you are making progress. Hopefully, pictures will show some plants that are prospering!

It doesn't appear that GardenWeb has a lighting forum, which is a bit surprising since they seemingly have a forum for every other aspect of landscape gardening. Is your question about how to develop a concept for what to light ... or how to install the fixtures and run the wiring? Maybe someone who is more experienced with low voltage than I can step in and offer some advice.

Thanks Yardvaark! i was kind of suprised there was no lighting section too. I've done some research and I understand the mechanics of hooking up the lights etc. I am looking for advice on where to place lights for best appearance. Here are some pics by the way of progress I took this morning:

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In the process of enclosing the bottom of the deck with lattice. Already installed a "roof under the deck so we can use it for storage.

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The area where the firepit now sits will be converted into an inground firepit per the plan next year.

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I still need to strip the sod and add mulch around the shrubs in this area.

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Going to start rebuilding the fence and adding a gate and path in this area in the next few weeks.

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Still need to work on the contour of the edge of the mulch bed.

All in all we are very happy with the results this spring!

Thanks for posting the photos. I'm sensing that you're confidence level is elevated for doing things and making changes. I am glad you're happy with the results so far. I'm anxious to see some larger plants, but I'll bet that by the end of this summer, we will see some difference.

Don't have a lot to suggest to you about lighting as it's not my area of expertise. Maybe someone who has greater familiarity with it will jump in a make some suggestions. The obvious things are that you might light the decks with ambient lighting (nothing in your face) and the path with marker lighting. It's always nice to uplight some trees with floods, but you have no trees that are ready.

The trees are actually growing pretty well (almost all survived from last year - a couple of the redbuds died off but have new growth at the base). I'm assuming I'll see good growth this year as we have had a lot of rain, temperatures have been in the 70s and I've been fertilizing (along with the lawn) based on soil test results.I also plan on installing drip irrigation in the next month or so (already have the majority of it bought).

Right now I am planning on installing two spotlights (one at each end) mounted to the side of the pool deck to illuminate an area of the lawn between the two decks for us to play bean bags (cornhole) at night. When not in use for this purpose, they will be facing down, illuminating a future perennial bed around the deck. I also plan on installing two path lights on stakes beside the base of the stairs on the deck attached to the house (one on each side of the stairway). The rest will have to wait until later (budget). I'm thinking of maybe lining the mulch beds with path lights spaced every 10' to 12' but this is just an idea. As for the pool deck, I have to be careful as the building code says low voltage lights have to be at least 10' away. This rules out lights on and around the stairs leading up and at least half of the deck. I think I am going to start a new post on the Landscaping Design on the subject as this is buried in this thread.

Thanks as always for all your help and advice.

I figured I should post some pictures of my progress this summer:

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One issue I recently noticed is that one of the redbuds is cracking:

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Any suggestions?

Thanks everyone for all the help! It's amazing how much better our yard looks in just two years!!!

Hi and thanks for posting update pictures. They are always enjoyable to see ... especially since so many of your plants were bare root to begin with. By now, you must be learning a lot about plants and their personalities. While a few things seem to be lagging, I see a lot of plants that looked like barely anything at the last post are now growing like gangbusters! Maybe with some of the perennials you will try experimenting with propagation as a way to spread plants even faster. It's like getting free stuff!

What is the broken tree in the last photo? If it's one of the redbuds, my advice will be to start it over. Not now, but next Spring (just before Spring growth occurs) cut it off about 6" high and let it regrow. One of the reasons I suggest this is because there is too much form variation within the redbuds. As far as form goes, they should all, relatively, look like they're from the same family ... with the "V"-shape multi-trunk structure forming at/from the ground ... not be a single trunk for 15" and then sparsely branch out. If you cut, it will sprout multiple new trunks (like some of the other redbuds) ... more than you want, but then you can pick and choose which will remain to form the trunk structure. Surprisingly, after cutting back so drastically, by the end of next summer, you will more than likely have it all back and barely believe it was ever cut.

You did a good job and should congratulate yourself. Thank you for posting.

Thanks to both of you! By the way, for anyone thinking of starting a similiar project, see my initial post:

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/design/msg0109232924401.html

This was the post before this one where I was just beginning to plan. I met the maximum number of posts (151) for that one so started this one as a follow-up.

Hi all. It's been awhile since I last posted but I figured now would be a good time to start plans for this spring (if it ever comes). So here is a review of my current plans and some questions involving them:

1. Fence - I am going to continue rebuilding the fence section by section. You can see a couple of pictures in my last post above with the two sections I rebuilt last year. The new fence is taller and has wider pickets.

2. Redbuds - As I posted above, one of the trunks of the redbuds cracked. Now I'm trying to decide if I should cut them all down to 6" as Yardvaark suggested above, or replace all of them with something else. We like the spring color, but don't find their summer and fall interest very compelling. Plus, they seem to be really soft wood. So does anyone have any suggestions for this area? Just to review, this area is in the front corner of our backyard, We just added a gate so there needs to be a path through whatever is planted.

3. Firepit - I want to build a firepit/fire ring and am looking for ideas. Right now I am thinking a fire ring in the ground (maybe a foot or so above the ground surrounded by some sort of stone) and then some sort gravel/flagstone etc around it. I really liked a project jugglerguy had posted on here (http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/stone/msg0519095013691.html) but all the pictures are gone.

4a. Around deck - This area has been changed from the planned picture. The deck was actually built between the house and pool (not to the right in the picture). An under deck storage area project will be finished up this spring (it will be surrounded with lattice and will have sliding doors on it). There currently is no landscaping around the deck but I'm thinking a tropical theme might be appropriate (hibiscus etc). Also, lighting for the deck needs to be figured out. I installed low-voltage downlights on the outside of the deck facing down to the ground so we can play bags at night so can add more on the deck.

4b. Area to the right of the pool in plan - Since the deck is no longer there, we planted three beautybushes and three red twig dogwoods. The dogwoods are growing well but the beautybushes just aren't doing well. This is the second year trying them (I had two of them replaced under warranty the year before) so I think I need to try something else.

5. Back right-hand corner - We planted 10 sky-rocket junipers along this corner and all seem to be doing well (although very small). To the left of them we planted a couple of clumps of ornamental grass that was given to us by a neighbor. It got to be about 4 feet tall so won't provide any privacy when someone finally builds behind us (might need to be moved and replaced). The builder went bankrupt about 4 years ago and there has been no building in our subdivision (about half the lots are empty) so we have no idea when someone will build. Any idea where this could be moved and what to replace it with?

6. Back left corner - Trees are 4-5 feet tall now and probably need to be pruned (I'll try to post some pictures this weekend if it ever stops snowing). Also, I think one of the Annabelle hydrangeas grew but I'll need to get two more.

7. Japanese maples - I planted two japanese maples (one was a red and the other yellow.....I think one was bloodgood but can't remember the other right now although it was suppose to be more hardy than some of the others). I have a feeling that neither will survive the winter (we've had record cold and snow......-15 degrees a couple days with -40 windchills - Chiberia). I figure if they do make it they can survive anything here. Assuming they don't.....any suggestions on replacements?

8. River birch - Need to be trimmed....many trunks right now. I will post pictures this weekend.

9. Potentilla & big leaf hydrangea - I need to replace a couple of the potentilla that didn't make it after two summers ago. I'm hoping they feel in better this summer as they have been pretty sparse the first two. The bigleaf hydrangeas (I believe they are Endless Summer) aren't really growing much. This will be their third year. Not sure if they need to be replaced or I'm doing something wrong.

10. Perennials - A lot of what we planted last year grew well so it will be interested to see how it grows this year. By the way, how and when do I propagate?

I'll take some pictures this weekend and post. Thanks everyone for all the help....it's unbelievable all the progress. By the way, anyone interested in our project, here is the link to the first post (it's split between two post as the first exceeded the maximum number of posts: http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/design/msg0109232924401.html.

Here's an example of the firepit I'm going to try to build.

It's starting to look like no one else will offer advice!

Answering your questions by number...

2. I cannot stress how important FORM is to a plant as it offers beauty and interest in ALL seasons. The redbuds are capable of delivering much more than it seems to you now. I still say cut them down and start over with the goal of developing them all into a matching set where each individual is a tightly clutched bouquet. Once a root system is established, you'll be surprised how quickly the upper portion of the plant will replace itself. But the new trunks will be clean, straight(ish,) sorted and unified. These can and will be good if you give the tough love that is needed. They're toddlers. They can't yet sing opera or win fashion shows.

3. There are scads of fire pit pictures on Google Images so you should be able to find just about anything you can imagine and whatever appeals. Your pic looks fine. I'm personally not enthralled, like many are, with flagstone paving, preferring something that's easier to walk on and maintain, in and under all conditions (low light, ice, etc.) Some view flagstone as an easier-to-install option, thinking it can be snuggled directly into the topsoil. But to have it be nice and last, it really needs a decent crushed stone base similar to what a brick patio might have.

4a. "Tropical" -- or at least lots of long blooming plants -- sounds great. Everblooming daylilies, caladiums, castor bean, a cluster of corn, grasses, cannas, Hibiscus, flowering annual vines: Moonflower ... morning glories. 'Alice duPont' Mandevilla.

4b. You must do what you must do. I know those plants grow well there. Incorrect watering is usually the culprit with new poorly performing plants.

5. Relocate the grass into the tropical pool/deck landscape. You could extend the skyrockets to fill in the gap ... or an altogether different upright plant. Look around the neighborhood ... what appeals that would fit will?

6. will wait for pics.

7. Jap. Maples have a good reputation for being cold hardy.

8. I will try to get a picture for you on the general scheme of trimming these. It will be a different plant but the same principle.

9. The only way to know if it's the plants or you're doing something wrong is by experience. Watering is the main thing to get right. Not too much. Not to little. Research the plant needs more and try to figure if you're satisfying them. Hydrangea like plenty of organic matter in the soil, too.

10. Propagate when you need, can and want to. But usually there are optimum times for the plant if it's division and resetting that you are doing.

Thanks as always Yardvaark. I think no one else is really interested in my multiple questions anymore! LOL Anyway, we are so thankful for all your help.....it's amazing the transformation! I do have a couple of follow up questions/comments:

2. I'll cut them down and give them another try. When would be the best time to do this? I'm thinking sometime in March?

3. I appreciate the input on the firepit. What would you recommend instead of flagstone? Some other sort of stone/paver? An aggregate like gravel?

4b. Your probably right about the watering. I am not very good about watering. Actually last year I was going to start setting up a drip irrigation system but never got around to it. Do you have any experience with such systems? Do they work well?

5. I think we would prefer something besides the junipers (already have ten planted). I have wrestled with this area for a long time. It has to be something fairly narrow (there is only 10' between the pool and fence at the closest point and I need room to get around the pool), can't be real messy (don't want all kind of junk in the pool), and needs to grow fairly tall (I would say at least 8'). I'm not sure if such a "beast" exists.

6. Will take pictures this weekend.

7.I'll wait for spring to see if the Japanese maples survive.

8. Attached is a picture of the river birches right now from the back deck.

9. I think the watering may be part of the problem with the hydrangeas so drip irrigation might help here too. I'll do some research on them too.

Thanks and have a great Friday!

Impressive work! Everything looks great, but I would have to agree with a previous poster about the lack of evergreens... If it doesn't bother you, than no problem, but for me...I feel like you could achieve your northern woods feel and still line the fence with some narrow conifers for winter privacy and a nice green backdrop year round.

Conifers are my main area of interest, so I am somewhat bias on how awesome they are. Unfortunately, Skyrocket juniper isn't a great choice for you. They do not handle "snow load" well and are likely to be destroyed as they get larger. They are also very susceptible to blight.

There are so many conifers that could fit that area. 10 feet with a height of at least 8 ft is easily achievable. Here is a list of recommendations for you to research:

* Picea glauca 'Pendula'
* Thuja occidentalis 'Degroot's Spire'
* Sciadopitys verticillata 'Joe Kozey'
* Chamaecyparis nootkatensis 'Jubilee'
* Buxus sempervirens 'Graham Blandy' (broadleaf evergreen)
* Buxus sempervirens 'Dee Runk' (broadleaf evergreen)
* Picea pungens 'The Blues'
* Picea omorika 'Pendula Bruns'
* Picea abies 'Gold Drift'
* Picea engelmannii 'Bush's Lace'
* Picea orientalis 'Skylands' (Large, but the find a place for it, you won't regret it...maybe the coolest conifer)

Those are just a few...there are many more that could fit your space...Conifers are far more than large green blobs that most people envision.

2. If the redbud does not already have the proper number of trunks 8-12 (?) cut it to the ground. Cut anytime up to where they start budding out for the Spring flush of growth. (If you cut after that you will get less return plant growth.) The main goal is to create a body of redbuds that look like they all came from the same happy family. I think they would look best with 8-12 well spaced trunks per plant. Light is the natural ingreadient that makes sure the branches that return are better spaced. If you get some that come up outside of the 55* optimum spread, you can pull them into the cone of spread and tie them in place to leave for a season ... if you need those additional trunks. Otherwise remove them if they fall outside the cone of spread.

You'll do the same thing with the river birch unless they already have a full compliement of trunks formed.... that large one looks like it might. If the case cut all the others to the ground (2") Since all these plants have developed root systems, you should get most of their size replaced during this single growing seaason, but with much improved options for what to keep in all the twig and trunkery. The river birch being so much larger, would look good with 5-7 main trunks.

3. Firepit .. you can go with concrete pavers, bricks, aggregate, I'd just avoid something rough to walk on and trip into in the low light.

4b. Drip systems work well but have lots of little parts and can take some time to figure out if one isn't familiar with it. A soaker hose on a time might work for some things.

5. Maybe SC77 will narrow down his list to the best one of two for your yard? Maybr you can show eaxactly wehre they go in a picture?

7. Jap maples tend to be quite cold hardy.

9. Hydrangeas light organic matter in the soil and evenly mois. They might like additional compost. I know down here,, in our infertile sandy soil, they develop brown and disficured leaves unless there is adequate OM.

I'm attaching some pictures of multitrunk trees that might help:

Here's another. Sorry about the background camouflage. Too, it was cut to ground and reaches to 10 in one season. These plants are returning roughly to the same size they were. But they are cleaned out and their trunks are artfully arranged. Their natural trunk spread seems good to me. The existing branches will be removed from the trunks before growth begins. The top will get a light crewcut ... just to unify.

If you can read the trunk structure in spite of the background camouflage, you can see a nicely shaped crape myrtle with about 18 trunks. I like 2 dozen, but 18 is good enough (for a crape.) 12 seems good for redbud and 7 good for birch. But the numbers are certainly tunable to personal preference.

Literally, any of those would work perfectly. Except for boxwood. I just double checked and that would probably burn and die in your colder winter. Since any of them would fit the bill, I will let the OP select their favorites.

Be aware that 'The Blues' and 'Gold Drift' require staking for upright growth, not a big deal, but maybe that is something you don't want to deal with. Skylands is an incredible tree, but would need to have a shade screen for the first 2 seasons, otherwise it will burn. If you buy 'Degroot's Spire', you must insist that it is a single leader specimen or you will need to prune it as such. This cultivar is narrow and generally single leader, not just any 'Arb' works, because most of them are multi-leader and they get trashed in the snow.

I prefer to mix a wide variety of trees, rather than just getting a bunch of the same tree. I like all of these cultivars, but if you want the ones that are the easiest to grow (no staking), and basically maintaince free I would select from:

* Picea glauca 'Pendula'
* Picea engelmannii 'Bush's Lace'
* Thuja occidentalis 'Degroot's Spire'
* Sciadopitys verticillata 'Joe Kozey'
* Chamaecyparis nootkatensis 'Jubilee'
* Picea omorika 'Pendula Bruns'

Thanks to both of you for the great advice/suggestions!

SC77 - So you think I should remove the skyrocket junipers and replace with one of your other suggestions? I don't mind replacing if they are going to be less of a headache down the road. Rather get it right now!

Here are a couple pictures of the redbud grove with the new fence in the background:

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And here are some pictures of the river birch grove. I just cut all the river birch down to 6" last spring so I'm not sure if I should do it again. Please keep in mind that there is over a foot of snow around the bases of these birch right now:

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Here are the pictures of the three trees in the back corner (they are surrounded by over a foot and a half of snow):

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Finally, here is the area along the fence:

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Thanks again!

I think I would probably move or remove the skyrocket juniper...but do some research on the conifer forum and decided for yourself. I used to like those until I starting reading how awful they handle snow and usually end up looking ratty due to blight.

Then, you need to decide if you want a somewhat formal hedge of green or specimen trees staggered. If hedge, then go with degroot's spire. If specimen, I would go for variety and get 2 or 3 of each at most. It looks nicer and protects you from getting wiped out if one disease or bug hits a certain species.

I also think other areas of your yard could benefit from the year round "structure" that a conifer provides. Here is an example location that looks very bare and exposed to the neighbors. (Picea engelmannii 'Bush's Lace')

"You'll do the same thing with the river birch unless they already have a full compliment of trunks formed.... that large one looks like it might [have been achieved.]

UNLESS is the key word. With the recent pictures, It looks like the the vast majority of river birches HAVE ACHIEVED a sufficient number of trunks ... at least 1/2 dozen (more vertical than 45*) ... so there is NO longer any reason to cut those trees back to the ground. Instead, you would only remove all of their branches (more horizontal than 45*) -- they will quickly regrow new, better placed ones -- and trim the trunk tips just enough that none are excessively longer than others. It would also be good to strive for relative uniformity of the entire group of birches, since one is quite large and two are a good bit smaller.

From what I can see, it looks like it may only be the right front river birch that needs additional trunks. If so, then I'd cut it to the ground again and get additional trunks now. There will not come an improved time to do it later. (I'm relying on a photo, so apply the advice to what really exists, if I can't see it well enough.) The arbitrary minimum number of trunks I've recommended is 1/2 dozen. If there happen to be two or three more and they are well placed so as to contribute to balance of the overall trunk structure, I'd allow them to remain. I'm sure many others would recommend 3 trunks total, but in my opinion, while that's typical, it's also mediocre, not awesome. Keep in mind what you're doing -- your goal now -- has nothing to do directly with creation of the head of the tree, but only with the trunk system. The head will follow no matter what, so just get the trunks right for now.

When it come to the redbuds, because of the snow and disparity between their forms, it's hard to tell exactly what I'm looking at. It seems there might be one tree that has the beginning of a good multi-trunk system, though it is small. If so, it should only have all its branches (not trunks) removed and the trunk tips trimmed to create relative uniformity of their lengths. But it looks like all the other redbuds are of wildly different trunk shape and character. They need to be cut to the ground and forced to branch into multiple trunks, so that they are of uniform qualities and character throughout the entire group. Because it's a natural object we're working with and not something like milled lumber, uniformity will not be perfect, but only reasonably similar to one another. Overall shape and balance will be more important than the exact number of trunks.

If we could briefly touch again on a subject discussed earlier, I would remind that landscape design includes the application of engineering to the back yard such that it functions properly -- in a way that its use is enhanced and made enjoyable -- or at the least so it creates no complaints! As well, it includes the application of art ... so there is visual harmony, general attractiveness, compositional balance, visual interest, pleasant smells and sounds, etc. There are many problems within the original yard to which engineering and art are applied in order to change those former problems into advantages and assets. The designer uses various materials, many of which are plants, to facilitate these positive changes. In the context of selecting plants for landscape design, I would choose a plant first and foremost because it solves a physical problem (screens ugly view, etc.) and does it in such a way that it creates its own new, attractive view. If the plant is unusual or has novel qualities, it still must fulfill the basic functions that created the need for its being used and it must do it in such a way so as to mesh well with the overall artistic progress of the yard scheme. If not, a novel plant will be inferior to a common plant who CAN do all of these things. If one selects plants because of their novel qualities, but with less regard for their ability to solve problems over the majority of the seasonal cycle, and fit in with the surrounding themes, then the design suffers. Many plants are so awesome in their own right, that they make it easy to want to use them in some way. But picking the plant before knowing what design specifications it must fulfil, is like getting the cart before the horse. Interestingly enough, most non-professional landscaping is done in the manner of liking (or loving) a plant and then trying to figure out how to use it and where to put it.

Thanks to both of you. Probably what is best is to wait until the snow melts and I get some better pictures (showing the bottom 1 to 2'). It's suppose to warm a bit next week (hopefully).

I was finally able to get out this past weekend (around 50 degrees!) and take a few pictures:

Redbuds - Need to be pruned (down to the ground on single trunk specimens).I also need to get rid of one of the redbuds and move another (probably cut the one on the left in the last picture down...received it from a neighbor....not ordered from Coldstream like the rest).

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Lilacs - Assuming nothing really needs to be done.
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Serviceberry - A lot of new growth. I'm assuming I need to prune some of it to the ground. I'm not sure how many trunks it should have and how to decide which to keep and which to prune:
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River birch - I think these all have enough trunks but some may need to be thinned out. Also, I'm not sure if the largest needs to be trimmed closer to the heights of the others:
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Annabelle Hydrangea - I'm not sure if these need to be pruned at all or not.
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Japanese Maples - I don't see any buds at all on the one and just a couple on the other. We had one of the worst winters in history here (temperatures in the -20s and snow most of the winter). Considering Japanese maples are borderline hardy for zone 5, I have a feeling they aren't going to make it. If they don't, what would be a good substitute (I really was trying to go with a red/yellow contrast).
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Pagoda Dogwood - Not sure if it needs to be pruned or not.
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Oakleaf Hydrangea: Assuming they don't need to be pruned:
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Burr Oak - I believe it needs to be pruned.
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Hickory - I believe it needs to be pruned.
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Red Oak - Just purchased last year....just a "stick"...no branches yet.
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Fraser Fir - Looks like they may have some burn from the winter. I'm assuming there is nothing I can do about this now.
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Doublefile viburnum - Not sure if it needs to be moved or pruned:
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Potentilla - Not sure if they should be pruned.
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Any and all advice is greatly appreciated!

This post was edited by pmsmith2032 on Mon, Mar 17, 14 at 10:05

There are 3 basic ways the trunk system of a tree can be, as shown in the rudimentary illustration. IMO, the first one, "A", should never be allowed to happen. I think that it is artistically unattractive, while either of the other two, "B" and "C" are acceptable. Looking at your redbuds, I can see that several are on their way to developing the homely trunk system "A". Since they are to be multi-trunk trees, the only thing to do is cut those that need it to the ground (4 inches is fine) and let them sprout a new array of trunks that will be, more or less, arranged and sorted in a bouquet pattern. (It is primarily light that does this work.) (If they sprout too many trunks, you can pick through those later and keep the ones you want.) This same procedure will apply to all multi-trunk trees that you create and it is entirely up to you as to how many trunks is satisfactory. Having studied this for quite some time, I personally conclude that more trunks make a better "bouquet" than fewer trunks do. I've seen river birches with 2 and 3 trunks and I've seen them with 7 and 8 trunks. Hands down it is the greater number of trunks that have the greatest visual impact -- especially since you are showing off bark -- and make the most satisfying and outstanding overall impression. The lesser number of trunks does not look bad ... it just looks nice and average. The lilacs, too, will get this procedure if they are to be multi-trunk tree forms.

The single trunk trees (Hickory, Oak, etc.) should be staked if they are leaning

This illustration should help explain the basic pruning operation for the trees. While the example is for a multi-trunk tree, the same principle -- of removing the lower half of branching and foliage -- would hold for a single trunk tree. The difference is only in the number of trunks.

This procedure would generally happen once per year, usually just prior to Spring growth. Pruning later in the year will just be touch-up.

Thanks! I'm going to start pruning tonight (it's suppose to be in the 50s today!) and will post my progress. A couple of quick questions:

1. For the lilacs, is it best to let them bloom this spring and then cut down? I think I read that flowering trees are suppose to be pruned after they bloom. 4" from the ground for them too?

2. For the oakleaf hydrangea, do I prune them too? I can't remember if they grow on new or old growth.

Prune the plants whose flower buds are set on the previous year's growth (lilacs and oakleaf hyd.) after bloom, as the blooming peters out.

I was able to get out and do some work. A couple of observations and some pictures showing my progress:

1. Now that the snow is melted it looks like the lilacs actually have multiple stems. Do I let them grow for another year or do I cut them down to the ground after they bloom?
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2. This serviceberry is around 5 years old and has been transplanted a number of times. To date, it has never really "taken off". This probably has a lot to do with me trying to train it into a "tree" shape. Going forward, what exactly should I do to it? It has a lot of new trunks growing up (I would guess at least 20). Do I cut it to the ground after if blooms? Something else?
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3. The trunks on this one river birch clump are very spaced out (probably 8-10" apart). What do I do in this case:
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4. Here are a couple of pictures of the largest river birch clump after I've pruned it. Do I prune the smaller clumps the same way (bottom 50% pruned) or wait until they get larger?
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I finished pruning the redbuds to the ground. Now we'll wait for Spring.
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5. For the oakleaf hydrangeas, do I cut them to the ground after they flower? They all seem to have varying forms so I would imagine I would. How many trunks for each?

6. How about the Pagoda Dogwood and Doublefile viburnum...how many trunks for each? Do I trim lower branches off similar to how I did the river birch (bottom 50%)?

7. Do I trim the bottom 50% off the burr oak and hickory this spring or wait until they get larger?

8. Any way to tell if the Japanese maples are truly dead before they bud? I'm assuming a lack of closed buds is a good indicator?

9. Do I do anything to the potentillas, big leaf hydrangeas and Annabelle hydrangeas (pruning etc) or just let them grow?

Thanks as always for all your help. We are really excited to see everything start growing this Spring!

Trimming the branches off of the enlarging tree to 50% height applies to multi-trunk or single trunk. And yes, now, even for the small trees. It's still just 50%. Keep in mind that there will come a time in the future where you will stop following this rule because the canopy ceiling will have reached its final destination based on your vision of what the plant is supposed to be achieving and its final form. It's possible in some cases, if you don't know how the plant's form will change with age, that you think it's reached the final destination, but that in years forthcoming, the canopy hangs lower and you see that it needs limbing up in order to bring it back to the vision it is supposed to be.

Cut oakleafs to ground after they flower. Create enough trunks/canes that the plant is full at the end of the season. If it was not, cut to ground again. The number of trunks is how many it requires to achieve your vision. I can't give you a specific number since I haven't had oakleafs in long time so have not had the opportunity to count them. I guess between 6 and 18 at the end.

Pagoda and doublefile ... are you growing these in the shrub form (with branches to the ground) or in the tree form (with a clear trunk exposed to some arbitrary height)? If in the shrub form, you will not cut off the lower branches, but trim the overall form instead. If you don't know, then look at the plant in its context and first develop a vision of how it needs to appear when grown.

just be patient on the Jap. maples. Some of the "is-it-dead" indicators are not 100% accurate.

For #9 question, just let these go unpruned for now and observe them. In part, what you should do to them in the future will be determined by what they do.

I think this is the year that you will see some good growth and that things will start looking like they might become something. It will be exciting for you to watch.

Thanks. For the pictured group of river birches below, what do I do? They are spaced out close to a foot apart. Do I cut down the trunks on the left (single trunks and just leave the one group?

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Also, I have trimmed a number of "clumps" now and have tried to leave 6 or 7 trunks for each clump. Is there a way to "train" a trunk that is at a unacceptable angle?

Thanks and have a great weekend!

I didn't even see the largest river birch that you had pruned and it looks quite good. Just watch the top so that the largest trunks don't way overtake the lesser ones. If that happens, remove tips of the larger to slow them a little.

That serviceberry, I'm not seeing 20 trunks on it. (It can be a trunk if it's more vertical than 45*, or a branch if more horizontal. Recount based on that.) If there's sufficient trunks to meet your ideal of a multi-trunk tree, then limb up 50% and call it a day. If not, then cut to ground and develop more trunks. If you don't know how many your ideal has, I'd guess between 6 and 18. But it's up to the beholder.

On that last photo (the wild river birch) ... don't worry that any trunks are 12" apart. Some day they will be holding hands and singing Kumbaya. About the (potential) trunks that are splayed low and outside of the desired form, you can either bend, stake and tie them into proper position (where they should be kept 1 year,) or just cut them off. However, if that leaves you without sufficient trunks to call the plant ideal for its situation and your goals, then it's better to cut the whole thing to the ground and get a whole new batch of trunks to choose from, all of which will be better arranged. Often, if you cut off those wide splaying trunks, a new one will grow back, but usually, it will be fighting for light so grow sideways, too. I've had better luck cutting the whole thing down and picking from what comes back. Look again at my crape myrtle pics if you need a reminder of how it goes.

To demonstrate that I take my own medicine, I offer a new pic of a crape myrtle just cut down after being dicked around with (by me) for 6 or 7 years. It was tipping out at about 9' ht. I was growing it under my old plan of cutting it annually at an ever higher elevation (raising the cut by a couple of feet or so per year.) While the overall form was ok, it left some trunks that never seemed able to catch up, size disparity and a somewhat "rough" looking (for my highly refined taste! :-) branching structure. I decided that my several years worth of hopes and dreams for it were better served by a complete and total rejuvenation, which brings about well arranged, smooth and clean looking trunks. There are probably 30 coming up now. (Being a greedy s.o.b.,) I will keep all but the weakest (more than 2 dozen) as this tree serves a semi-screening purpose among its other jobs. I cut it to the ground one month ago. The first hint of buds showed up 2 weeks ago. Now, it's growing inches per day. I expect it to be at least over my head and of impeccable form by the end of summer.

BTW, the thread takes a long time to load because of the pictures, which are a huge size. You might consider setting your camera to take a smaller size picture for landscape. Something in the range of 400 to 500 x 600 to 700 seems to be the size range that is large enough to see well and what will end up here. (GardenWeb automatically makes them display that size even though they are larger.)

Sorry.....when I said trunks on the Serviceberry I meant all the shoots growing up around it.

I think I see what you're asking about now with the serviceberry. It might turn out that the sprouts become dominant and the original plant, with it's more gnarly branching, is overtaken. Wait and see. if the sprouts become dominant, I'd cut out the older part of the plant as it's form will look strange with all these towering straight canes around it. Of those new sprouts, the plants own shade will determine that some canes will prosper and some will not. Once the dust settles later in the year, you can get rid of the less prosperous canes.

I need some help with replacements for the beauty bushes (pictured below). I have planted two different sets now and both sets have died. What would be a good replacement bush for this area (to the south of the pool). Thanks and have a great weekend!

This is the one thread that you must go make a sandwich or brew tea while it loads. :-)

Can't believe you had such a hard time with those. Subs could be burning bush, PG Hydrangea, Viburnum prunifolium, common lilac.

A grouping of Limelight Hydrangea would be a good choice if you're about blooms. I like the V. prunifolium as a very close second. Visit Classic Viburnums if you go that route. Any garden center will have Limelight.

Nice additions. I am guessing the design you have up top is like I said earlier to block the view of the neighbors homes from you house and for a winter windbreak. I didn't read the entire article due to time and it seems yardvark pretty much nailed everything as usual. I would just say personally I would add a little color via roses, would talk to a local nursery on those, and I would certainly look into edibles a bit more like a couple of apples. You could get full size "standard", Semi, or dwarf. I would slap a honeycrispx2 on there and a granny smith. I would also pick up a cherry or two, I personally like ranier but don't know how well they do in your area. That way you get spring blooms, fall apples/color, and something to look forward to seasonally. I would also augment those with evergreens like hollies with red berries for winter interest. When in doubt go for some more evergreens. Spring/Fall pretty much take care of themselves. See what looks best in your area in the summer/winter in the nurseries and go that route when in doubt of what to plant.

#8 it might be the redneck in me but to test if a tree is dead I take a branch that is not important and see if its pliable. If it is its likely still alive. Even if they seem dead, sometimes new sprouts will emerge at the base of plants so don't totally give up. I have a couple of bonsai JM that I attempted to graft during the summer "me being overconfident" and thought they died but I got enough out of the base to make some nice bonsai.

On a different subject, just above I posted a picture of a freshly cut down-to-the-ground crape myrtle (March 21, 2014.) My purpose in cutting it was to increase the number of trunks. As a follow up, I am posting a picture I took yesterday. When cut, it had about 20 trunks. Now it's about 40-something (enough for me!) A few will disappear from being stifled out by bigger, stronger trunks. Simultaneously, a few that might survive are sprouting from the base. I tied it up so as not to get too wide a spread (it was basically a round ball at the end of last year.) When I remove the ties later this summer, it will become somewhat wider ... my goal around 50 degrees. At end of last summer it topped out at about 6' ht. After spring clean-up (removing all side branches and evening the top, it was about 4 1/2' to 5'. With the new shoots, it's back to 6'. I expect it to be 7' or 8' ht. overall by end of summer. It will never be cut again to increase trunks. Instead, it will be pollarded/coppiced yearly at 10' ht. It will take a couple more years to get there.

Thanks Yardvaark, Brad and Whaas. What would be the best of the choices you offered that would grow to at least 8' tall and provide a screen during summer?

I think Limelight would be a great addition due to the long season of summer interest.

I think it depends on your location. I think a shrub from http://www.midwestgardentips.com/best_performing_shrubs.html

Would be your best bet. I would get a set of large shrubs at the 3-4 foot height from a nursery and prune to train up. You could also go a little different and get a couple of peaches, semistandard apples, crabapples or other small fruit trees and get lattice and tie them espaliering them to provide a screen and food. Personally I would go the peaches route with 3 peaches, "usually look better in odds" and I know yall can get good large peaches up there. I saw somewhere a guy espalliered an apple tree into a chair, you could make a killer privacy screen with a 3-4 foot peach and they usually grow pretty slow so it would be easier for a first time Espallier. If it also faces south for a screen that would also help with fruit production like the french used to use and was why the espalier was originally created. In the south we use them in wind breaks for citrus or for heat breaks from the heat like your talking about.