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madtripper

Is good design really that important?

madtripper
18 years ago

Reading the messages on this forum it is quite clear that many of us really don't know what 'good design' is. I include myself in that group. When we extend the group to include the general public that will be looking at your garden, they probably understand good design even less than a gradener.

So how important is it really?

If you plant a graden with nice flowering plants would not most people conclude that it is a nice garden? As long as it has color, is well maintained, is not outrageous most people would think that you have done a good job even if the colors clash.

I am not suggesting that good design does not make the garden better or that using better design principals will not make the garden look better. My point is that most people can't really tell the difference.

Personally, I am a plant collector. I see gardens mostly as individual plants, not as a well organized groupings. I think a garden is more special if it is growing unusual, well grown plants.

Terms like "grounding the house to the garden" don't seem to mean much to me. I can kind of guess what this means, but can I really say which of two houses is better grounded? I probably do like one over the other, without knowing why.

I also have trouble "feeling" the garden. Gardens don't put me in a mood - or at least I am not consious that they do. I am probably too scientific and pragmatic to notice?

If the majority of people don't really understand good design is it really that important? for the average home owner, are we making too much out of "proper landscaping".

Comments (107)

  • laag
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Linrose wrote:
    "As has been suggested by previous posters, that is OK. If what you want from your own garden is personal satifaction, then you have achieved it if you are happy with the results.
    If it is worldwide (or subdivisionwide) acceptance you require, then you need to look a bit further. If you don't give a **** about all of that - then just do what works for you! No rules."

    Those "ifs" get overlooked as not being the function. I bang my head against the wall trying to make the point that these are functions and we each weight them differently.

    When you don't give a &^% what the neighbors think, the function then shifts toward self satisfaction. The form then follows that direction. Good design is achieved! It is not "no rules", just an application of different values.

  • The_Mohave__Kid
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    " I don't know what works for me, isn't a design supposed to be before the fact, I want to know that I am making a good design before I get out there. "

    If YOU don't know .. no one else will and you will not end up with your landscape. Once you know then a good designer can help you set objective criteria and meet those criteria .. as Laag talks about ... perhaps a designer can help you on your journey of self discovery .. perhaps .. but it is your life and so your task.

    Can you tell me what I should do with my day off tomorrow ??

    Which is why I always suggest to those new to landscaping to get away from design when it is time to design your landscape. There is too much design in design. The technician will kill the artist .. the artist never allow the technician to direct the ship because neither really knows where YOU want to go and so neither one trust the other.

    Go sit in the garden. Just sit. Walk around the block ... go bowling ... drink tea... cry yourself to sleep ... laugh until you cry. Eat something. Go work in the woodshop if you are a woodworker. Shoot hoops. Be what is stirring inside of you since it is the source of your life and all that you create... find it again in the landscape so there is no boundary between you and the outside. Make it all one... so there is no you versus the landscape. Just one.

    ... only then it is time to design.

    Good Day ...

  • laag
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The Mohave Kid brings up a very important thing that all designers must learn to do. That is to draw out information from your clients. My belief is that it is best to do this in a subtle way, or they try to think about what they think they should say (particularly if they have been reading garden design books). If they don't seem to know, you can gain an understanding of their lifestyle through conversation. They are less likely to contrive ideas than they are from direct questioning because they sometimes are worried about giving the right answer, if that makes sense.

    A heck of a lot of function is based on what people have to do, want to do, and where they are likely to do it. Sometimes they get stuck on ideas such as "I always though a patio would look good over there" without realizing any inconvenience or conflicting use that might happen, or that the use of the area where it really makes sense can be reprogrammed or aesthetically transformed as well.

    Garbage in = garbage out. You have to understand the clients needs even if he is confused about them.

    There is a thread about someones plan to put a shed in a long back yard going on. The OP described what she was trying to do and showed a plan that fit that program. A lot of people made suggestions and she has now moved away from some of the things that she set out as being important at the beginning. Has she been enlightened, or has she been confused?

  • Frankie_in_zone_7
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes, that is the potential problem of having lots of different, superficial (not a criticism, just a function of its being internet advice) landscape input. The long yard-shed poster was told the shed would "look better" in the back. She wanted tool storage closer. So maybe it should stay there, or maybe one should think outside the toolshed (as in the advice to remodel garage for storage, or identify a few select tools that could be in an attractive portable thing). On the other hand if easy tool access was not AS important as other activities closer to the house, then the back shed placement could make sense, especially if the priority were for the shed to make a specific kind of statement as a major form element in the garden.

    So without really sitting down and carefully going through all these things, designer + client, a poster may get really mixed signals, especially as all these ideas arive separately and over time. Yet in any given context each of the suggestions could be sensible.

  • adamante
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Probably a 'good design' would be one that took what seemed like insurmountable problems, frankie, and came up with a pleasing answer.
    I don't see a problem with having lots of different input, unless of course it is superficial, as it is very unlikely that someone will come up with exactly what I would like without knowing me or my yard. What drew me to this thread was the possibility of unearthing a theory or objective criterion for a good design regardless of who or where I am.

  • laag
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Theory:
    Good design is:
    1. understanding the basic mission of the project.
    2. determining the goals and objectives of the project.
    3. defining the activities, the intended experience during those activities, and the physical requirements to make those happen.
    4. understanding the site.
    5. determining the best relationship of all of those activities with one another.
    6. merging the best relationship of those activities with the realities of the site.
    7. enhance the stated experiences through use of plants and other things.
    8. mitigate what is working against those intended experiences in the same manner.

    This can be applied to a subdivision or a small planting bed. Activities could be viewing, gardening, sleeping, listening, or meditating just as easily as skateboarding, washing your car, or having a barbecue.

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Once again, laag nails it. But perhaps the reality is not quite so direct and easy to accomplish as the theory implies. That's what keeps us all on our toes and the professionals employed :-)

  • adamante
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I found this while I was looking for my answer. Not a landscape designer but Paul Graham (see link below) says that good design is:
    simple,
    timeless,
    solves the right problem,(full points to me)
    suggestive,
    often slightly funny,
    hard,
    looks easy,
    uses symmetry,
    resembles nature,
    redesign,
    can copy,
    often strange,
    happens in chunks (?)
    often daring.
    Does this make any sense?

    Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.paulgraham.com/taste.html

  • laag
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yikes.

  • The_Mohave__Kid
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Yet in any given context each of the suggestions could be sensible."

    There is a ring of oriental wisdom in that ... I like it and agree. I believe it was Lagg that said many times before .. "it depends".

    If you seek something designed by a formula ... go to McDonald's.

    Good Day ...

  • laag
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have to confess that I went from reading the list of Graham's design statements and got through about a paragraph and a half and thought I was in a sea of pretentious crap. I just went back and read the whole article. It is very good.

  • The_Mohave__Kid
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't know. So I know.

    Good Day ...

  • adamante
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "If I didn't know, I would eat at McDonalds and then I would know", is that the grasshopper quote for the day Mr Good Day?

  • spunky_MA_z6
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Adamante, thanks, I quite enjoyed reading that article.

    One could argue, McDonald's is good design. At some point (usually when you are younger) everybody wants some. I'll never forget being lost one night in Vermont, where everything closes by 8 pm, with a car full of hungry kids. Those golden arches never looked so good as they did that night. Long live the Big Mac.

  • adamante
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This thread has been tough going but I thought I could participate. I can't tell anyone what to plant, where, because I don't know and there are other forums that I read if I want to know. I came here to a design forum, obviously to learn about good design, not many people want to discuss it but thank you to those who do/have.

  • linrose
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    'Wild animals are beautiful because they have hard lives.'

    A quote from the aformentioned article by Paul Graham in the paragraph entitled 'Good Design is Hard.'

    Insight - or idiocy?

    This guy's bio lists him as an essayist (I guess this was one of them), a programmer and a program language designer.

    I think I'll skip the book.

    There are some interesting points offered that are worth culling from the rest, Mr. Graham is certainly a thinker, one who enjoys pondering design. I like that he studied programming and painting. Nice combo. Finding the beauty, the elegance in both math and art is a nice span of understanding. The question is who is the intended audience for his writing? I don't think it is intended for the design professional, and I don't see the general public picking up a copy for a good read. I suppose that's an issue for his publisher.

  • inkognito
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The good/bad design conversation brought to the top.

  • lcaff
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My husband and I have just finished a landscape design with an online landscape design firm. We were skeptical at first, but as it turn out, it was the best investment we have made to date.

    I highly recommend using a designer. The company we used is called VisionScape Landscape Design, I think the url is www.myvisionscape.com, but you may have to search it.
    Well worth the time and money.

    Good Luck.

    Here is a link that might be useful: landscape design company

  • inkognito
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Do you have an alternative to your company that we may compare results? Did you honestly read through the foregoing and genuinely offer this? Or did it pop on google? If I am wrong can you explain in detail the process that lead to your investment and the result, posting pictures is easy.

  • laag
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    They pay $50 to people who post links for each successfull referal.

    Only post by this lcaff. Coincidence? I think not.

  • lcaff
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I did find them on Google, abd the only comparison I have are the countless landscape contractors coming to my house and offering estimates. The basic problem We found was that all the contractors came, gave estimates, but we were never sure what we were getting, nor were we sure they understood what we wanted.
    We worked with a Master Designer of almost 3 weeks. He was patient, sketched out concepts for us and basically gave us what we wanted.

    We are very excited, we expect to begin construction any day now.

    Can anyone tell me how to upload pictures?

  • laag
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm curious to know why you are already convinced that it was the best investment when you have yet to begin construction.

    My beef with the photoimaging design companies is that they convince their client's, and often themselves, that the picture is the final product.

    I would like to see the pictures of built work on their web site and any other of these photo imaging designers. I find it interesting that a serious client can buy into a design process over the internet from people who only show before pictures and altered photos that they call "after" pictures, but can't trust a local designer with real photos of built work, references with addresses in your area that you can actually go look at, and are familiar with the intricacies of your local area.

    I'm glad that there are people providing this service for those who find this the way to go. I'm just amazed that there are people who find it the way to go.

    I've talked to the guys demonstrating these programs at trade shows. In the ten minutes that you talk to them, they "design" two landscapes and you have a converstation with someone who knows the tool and nothing about landscape design. The whole time they tell you how easy it is and that even I can start designing and out selling my competition.

    Good luck. I hope you are as happy with the built work as the pictures. Maybe you'll get one or two of those $50 bills in referals ... that is if they tell you they got one. Hey, maybe they'll send you a picture of a $50 with you on it instead of Grant.

    But, I have to thank you for digging up this old thread. It was good to reread it.

  • lcaff
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    laag,

    I know have a clearer picture. You are a landscape architect, am I right? Maybe visionscape is a threat to you, but most of all I can tell by your last statement about software and $50, that you do not know what you speak of.

    Let me enlighten you to my own landscape & design experience thus far.

    After speaking to countless contractors, my husband and I decided we should have a design. We went to the yellow pages first, had a few conversations with architects and one designer. The bottom line; Over $10,000 and they couldn't even tell me how much over $10,000. I basically couldn't afford it.

    We found VisionScape on Google somewhere. They gave us a consultation and a quote of $2120. I wont lie we were a little skeptical, but we only needed to pay $500 to get started. So we tried it.

    First they sent someone to our house to measure and photograph our property, They even took samples of our dirt. At the time, we didnt know why.

    Then we went through a series of online meetings with our master designer. He interviewed us on everything from budget to favorite colors, all the while is is drawing out concepts on the screen as we watched and made suggestions. When we wanted to move things, he was more than happy to accommodate us, and wasnÂt charging us extra like the architects we spoke with on the phone.

    After each meeting, he sent back to us a blue print, which we then discussed.

    All in all the experience was great, and I now know a lot about my landscape, which came in handy when we hired our contractor. Did I mention that our quotes were on average $10,000 below the budget we gave visionscape.

    I will post pictures of the finished landscape, hopefully in 6 weeks.

    Have to go and put the kids on the bus.

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think we are comparing apples and oranges here - lcaff indicates that various contractors came out to give estimates but were these design/build contractors, qualified designers or just your basic mow, blow and go guys? And providing an estimate is a far cry from spending three weeks with the guy/gal developing an idea of what is needed/wanted. Of course they were left a bit in the dark about what they would get. Providing an estimate is not the same as an initial design consult.

    It's a pretty slick website, I'll grant you that. But my issues are the same as the previous posters. Why no portfolio of built work, why only renderings of proposals? Even the glowing testimonials seem to be still on the verge of construction and not yet with a completed, installed design. And since the VisionScape operation says they'll hook you up with a local contractor to do the work, why is this process any superior to a design provided by a qualified local designer or design/build company? And with prices starting at $2000 for just a design, they don't come cheap, either.

    I really liked this statement describing their "Master Designers":
    Master Designers are unlike any other landscape design professional. They give every homeowner they work with the benefit of not only expert designs and visionary perspectives, but also years of field experience. This makes the difference between designs that are just pretty, and designs that will be as functional and sustainable as they are breathtaking.

    So someone please explain to me what the rest of us professional designers are.......chopped liver??

  • Brent_In_NoVA
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    lcaff: I hope you can understand why people would be suspicious of your post...just signed up and the first thing you did was post a short message with a link to a commercial company. If you want to learn how to post pictures, search the forums and you will find hundreds of posts with instructions.

    I would love to see before and after pictures of your project (I would recommend starting a new thread). I do think that the idea of designing from afar has merit. You will likely loose some of the local plant knowledge and the designer is not on site to oversee the installation, but there are a lot of people that complain that they cannot find a local designer. With the Internet, there is the potential that everybody has thousands of designers to choose from.

    Maybe the firm that you worked with has figured something out. I am VERY skeptical of the online "designers" that claim to give you a complete design for under $500. I like that this firm sent somebody to your house and that they spent consultation time with you. Based on their website it looks like they do produce accurate plans and not just mocked up photos.

    - Brent

  • lcaff
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ok,
    I am starting to get the picture. Apparently I by typing in the website, I lost my credibility. Opps, who knew.

    This is what I am going to do. My husband will show me how to upload pictures this weekend, and i will do so periodically over the next few weeks in hopes that you all can provide me with feedback. Did I get my monies worth or not.

    Someone mentioned plant selection as a problem. The way it was explained to me, was they select plants from a company called Monrovia, and Monrovia Horticulturist help with the plant selection by looking at what is available at the garden centers in my area. They also allowed me to put a $200 deposit on the plants so they will be available when I need them. We didnt use this part of the service, but it sounded interesting. Should we do this?

    Lisa

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yeah, I noticed the plug for Monrovia on their website. As a retail nurseryperson myself, IMO there is little to recommend Monrovia over a more local grower other than they do have some very nice proprietary plants you cannot get from other growers. Otherwise, their plants are high priced compared to more local offerings and not that special. And are very often rootbound.

    A $200 deposit against plants is not very much for a full landscape installation. Even a single planting area for one of my designs can run as much as several thousand dollars depending on size and plant selection and a full design planting could be considerably more. What plants have they recommended? Or are they waiting for the Monrovia guy to select all the plants?

  • marcinde
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That's such an intriguing concept. I wonder how they screen/ train the contractors doing the measuring? I design from afar for my brother; but I trust his measurements. When I worked as a designer in AZ, we were told to avoid the site if we could- use the plat map and county GIS photos, and "be more productive" by designing from home. Inevitably, the plat was inaccurate, the photos were old, and we spent twice as much time on site redesigning as the installers watched. Lisa, definitely keep us abreast of the process. I'm wondering if they really have figured it out? But then, the skeptic in me keeps coming back to the lack of finished photos...

    Dave

  • laag
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What makes you think that I would not have done it for less than that had you been in my area?

    I'm happy to hear that someone came out to your home. If I were to have done it I would not have sent someone. I would have been there. Not only that, but I would have come out to meet you and discuss your project for at least an hour and given you unrepressed thoughts of what could be done with no fee. I'd listen closely, and speak openly, even if I did not think you were actually going to hire me. I'd show you photos of jobs that I have designed. I have one or two pictures of plans just in case you want to see what document I'd give you, but I generally skip right over those because it is the built landscape that matters. Hopefully, after that time, you would have fallen in love with the idea of having me do your design work and then I'd have a reasonable chance at getting your business. I'd have defined the exact level of service that would do the job based on our stroll around your grounds and I'd spell it out for you in rediculous detail so there would be no disappointment and so that you would not have to pay for unnecessary frills. You would receive a proposal to do the design work and you would have already known whether you valued what I was proposing to do for that amount (almost always a flat fee), or not. You would not be on the fence either way. You would confidently say yea, or nay.

    Once I was hired, I would personally measure your property, inventory it, draw the existing conditions, and then personally draw the plan, present it to you, review it with you, and completey revise it if necessary.

    Sure, there are LA's and LD's who will not take on a design only job because they make their living as project managers. That is what they do. They will not drop what thy normally do in order to "serve the public". So what they do for people who do not fit their business plan is to put together a proposal that does fit their business plan. That way they respond to you rather than ignore you and either convert you to following their business plan, or continue pursuing their business plan somewhere else.

    A lot of design/build landscapers operate by selling you the total design/build package up front before it is designed. That is a very tough pill for a homeowner to buy into. But, from the contractor's perspective, he is not in the design business and does not want to sell his designs for his competition to build. However, a lot of design/build contractors will do design work knowing that it is far more likely thast you will stick to the same company that did the design (extremely high probability, based on my experience).

    It is just a matter of finding the right one that fits. You tried to find a local LA or designer and you did not succeed. I can't say I blame you for finding an alternative, if that was the case. However, I think you would have ultimately found what you were looking for had you continued to look closer to home.

    I have to say that your posts do sound suspiciously like sales talking points, though. You stereotyped all La's as having minimal design fees of over $10,000 which is totally untrue. You say you talked to several contractors and your husband then decided you needed a design. That is also pretty fishy in that most contractors even the knuckle dragging mouth breather types are either doing free designs or are offering low cost designs to help sell jobs.

    I have not seen your property, but I can tell you that I am currently working on a design for a multimillion dollar ocean front home for $900. Most of my landscape plans run about the same that you paid unless there are more services than those that I described above. They often include swimming pools, driveways, grading, retaining walls, patios, walkways, fencing, pergolas, .... and well over 100 shrubs for that $. On the other hand, I won't let you sit down and design it with me either in person or on screen and I won't cut and past every blessed plant out of Horticopia to dress it up. No one has ever asked me to provide those things and no one seems to be interested in playing on the computer with me, thank God.

    This is a diverse industry and it takes all types of services to satisfy all types of clients. I'll never lose a client who is likely to hire me to Visionscapes and they will never lose one who is likely to hire them to me. That much I do know.

    I still think you are a VisionScapes rep.

  • adamante
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Are Visionscapes still in business, I can't access the website.

  • inkognito
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The first time madtripper asked the question the ensuing was way more interesting note though the lack of his input.

  • sanjayjagtap
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The reason it�s most important is because your home is the gateway to good health. good design has a value of its own.
    Also when everything is good around you, you also feel good.

  • jenn
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Eric said:

    "A successful garden is one that pleases the gardener.."

    And to that I would add "... and those who are most important to the gardener."

    Last year we had a small group over for dessert. This group included people who had never been to our house. We ate dessert outside in our patio. One of them told me later how much she thoroughly enjoyed our garden and looking at the plants, colors, scents, etc ---- yet, our backyard was in need of pruning, weeding, mulching, etc. Had she been a professional designer, she may have mentally picked apart the bare spaces (still yet to be planted), and other "errors" --- and missed the pleasure of enjoying it for what it is.

    I garden primarily for my own enjoyment but also as a gift to my husband, family, and friends. I think about plants, scents, and colors they would like and dislike; I avoid placing bee magnets at the edge of the patio; I add paths in certain areas that invite them to explore (not just for my own needs). I do my best to create good design, but avoid going to extremes as if I'm designing a garden for the cover of Fine Gardening magazine.

    Gardens evolve over time; the more I learn, the closer I get to "good design" based on my own knowledge and understanding, much of which comes from experience and reading. In any garden, there's always room for improvement in someone's eye, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

  • Frankie_in_zone_7
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't think bare spaces and weeds fit into the design error category. Then there's perhaps "error" vs. something that might be better if someone wanted to know, how to make that better. So an error might be placing something somewhere --like a certain shaped tree at a corner, or a row of something, competing focal points--to achieve a certain result and learning or figuring out that it had just the opposite effect. An improvement might be a path that one is planning that should have a gentler curve or a broader width.

    If I could design some of the gardens that I admire in Fine Gardening, I would not try to avoid it. But there are of course landscapes (that I have experienced or seen in photos) that are advertised as fine design but that do not appeal to me, so I would avoid that. So far I have not had to worry about having a too-well-designed landscape!

  • laofeng
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Of course, It's very important!.

  • hewitt12
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    On my point of view. We do need a display of good designs in our planet. It makes us feel were alive and so. The array of colors and magnificent designs makes ones be uphold towards beauty.

  • laag
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good design is important. That does not mean that it has to be complex or complicated, ... just good.

  • Marie Tulin
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Discussions like this are why I stick with GW through good times and boring. A discussion that petered out three years ago is revived,the entire conversation is "recalled" and can be reconsidered by new readers.

    'Tis an amazing thing....

  • VILLEMARIE
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    YES!

  • stacyp9
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It is very important, and imo is far more involved than simple aesthetics. Good design takes into account the owner's habits and needs, the needs of the plants, their growth history etc.

  • mjsee
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Can't believe I missed this discussion the first time around...

    Good design is incredibly important. It brings visual order and cohesion to the garden--even a collector's garden--and allows the eye to SEE the beauty there. I'm still working toward a "well designed garden"--but I'd like to think I'm getting there. One Acer palmatum/dissectum at a time...

    ;^)

  • madtripper
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Interesting that this discussion is still going, and almost no one agreed with my original point of view.

    I agree good design makes for better gardens - no doubt about it. But my contention is that for the general public, they are mostly looking for pretty flowers.

    Given two gardens, one that is well designed but has no flowers, and a less well designed garden with lots of flowers, the general public will pick the poorer designed garden as the best one.

    I see it when I have open houses. They flock to pretty flowers.

    I agree that people in the know, people who take gardening more seriously, and the people on this list - would spot the better design.

  • mjsee
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    madtripper---you make a great point. I was looking at my garden this morning thinking "That rudbeckia and phlox have GOT to go" (they've self-sowed EVERYWHERE) when a neighbor walked by and told me how lovely my garden was looking. And she was referring to that riot of blooming plants. So--I think you may be right--it DOESN'T matter to most people. But it matters to me!

  • tanowicki
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    How long is the general public staying in the garden before making the choice? I would think if it's an hour or two or just on a tour, then yes, the flowers win. Dan Brown beats Shakespeare at the checkout counter.

    But, if the person has to live with the design or stay there for a few days, the good design has a chance. It will have had time to make a good impression and let the more subtle elements sink in and the showy garden will get boring.

  • inkognito
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good point tanowicki , much like the oft quoted difference between a colour and b & w photograph: you are immediately attracted to one but the other may be more engaging. I think this ties in with what most people want when they talk about 'curb appeal' that instant aah ooh! factor. Years ago I used to do a window boxes arrangement for a local pub and "riot of colour" were the exact words used when I asked what they wanted. Once inside people could "let the more subtle elements sink in".

  • mjsee
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Honestly--I like the shadier, less floriferous (if that isn't a word it ought to be)parts of my garden better than my sunny-ish beds. My sunny-ish beds are also my cutting garden, so I've not figured out how to make them more cohesive. But the over-abundance of tall phlox coupled with the crazy rudbeckia...I need to cut that mess WAY back.

  • drtygrl
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    As I read through the thread, I didn't agree with your point, madtripper. But your most recent comment helped me see the question without the bias of my own perspective and I realized that you are probably right about the way "most people" see a garden or landscape.

    I think the best (as well as most ironic) example of this is the garden club in my own town. One weekend a summer they give out garden club awards along main street. Over the years it has become extremely apparent that they give out the awards to the gardens that have the most flowers in bloom on that weekend; disregarding well designed gardens that may not have as much "color" at that time. I think we should call them the annual club awards rather than the garden club awards.

    If one concedes that madtripper is right - that most people are attracted to the "pretty flowers" - that should be a consideration in designing commercial gardens and the more public parts of landscaping. Could one take the argument a step further and say that in certain situations lots of flowers are an element of good design?

  • woodyoak zone 5 southern Ont., Canada
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree that it is flowers that immediately draw people to a garden. Here, the front garden is the sunny space most suitable for flowers so it is the showy, flowery 'public' face of the garden and is planted for both our enjoyment and the enjoyment of neighbours and passers-by. It definitely draws people to the property - many neighbours comment on it and/or stop by to take a closer look. A flowery garden projects a friendly feel I think - in part, no doubt, because you're frequently out there working in it so it's easy for people passing by to engage you in conversation! The design aspects I try to impose on the flowery garden are through things like color selection, layout, and choice, design and placement of 'ornaments' (e.g. sundial) and structures (e.g. bench, arbour and obelisks/tuteurs). The shady backyard is private and more deliberately/obviously designed. Flowers are still important there but they take more of a secondary role.

    What has always irritated me is the implicit - and sometimes explicit - assumption that an interest in/desire for a flowery garden implies a lack of interest in/concern for or knowledge of good design.

  • mjsee
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What has always irritated me is the implicit - and sometimes explicit - assumption that an interest in/desire for a flowery garden implies a lack of interest in/concern for or knowledge of good design.

    I agree the two are not mutually exclusive...but are often treated as if they are. I wonder why? Perhaps because the riot of color in a flowery design makes the design bit harder to concentrate on? Is it a case of the "ooooh shiny" overshadowing the plan?

  • inkognito
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A good design might be one that displays a riot of colour, although it would be a mistake to reverse the statement.

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