"...what one individual homeowner does for landscaping in their own front yard isn't the point of any of this..." Actually, it is. In the Col. Muldrow discussion (of which this thread is an offshoot) the argument was about the use of H. helix in a specific place. The recommendation of English ivy there, causes many to say that it has no purpose anywhere. That Col. Muldrow likes or dislikes--because he/she already has preconceived ideas about it which may or may not be correct--is what does not matter. Another truth to recognize is that, in general, vines get a bad rap. Without the proper handling, many of them can become thugs. It is proper handling, not disuse, that I am promoting.

Having no first-hand familiarity with Algerian ivy, I can't speak to issues regarding it's bad habits or invasiveness. If it drops a prodigious amount of viable seed, I'm sure I'd find neighbor's plants annoying to contend with. But I've not been trying to promote a plant in areas or for purposes for which it's not suited. I'm supporting it for the great many places and purposes in which it is. Kudzu has decimated large areas of the country and I wouldn't support the idea of using it anywhere I know. But I can conceive that somewhere on earth, with regard to the all the factors, it does have some place and purpose. I don't know what or where it would be, but if it could be discovered, I would support its use in that place. Not in other places. The disagreements seem to emanate from this really being two parallel conversations. One is about "invasives." The other is about plant performance. I cannot agree that there is NO landscape place for English ivy. It's an extraordinarily useful plant capable of serving many purposes with superior performance. The easiest way for me to agree that there is no longer need for H. helix in the landscape is to discover a plant that is equal or superior to it. I do not know what this plant would be. The problem I'm trying to solve is where a large, uniform, low height (not to exceed 9 or 10") lawn (1/4 acre or more) is desired, in the dry shade of trees where little digging is desired, capable of covering slopes, is inexpensive, in the American Southeast, without irrigation and will not also be considered invasive as soon as it becomes popular... what plant is this? It would not be valid to suggest a different style of landscape. If someone wants a mixed perennial border, they don't want to hear a recommendation to use sod instead.

@ maureeninmd "My post sharing my experience with this plant (quite different from yours) went unacknowledged by all." I can only speak for myself but I didn't comment on what you said because your comments ("English ivy is a terrible thing"... "Catkim's pics make me want to cry"... "I hate to see it"... "choking out everything in its path, etc....") sound like they are coming from someone who was not open to reason and practicality. The way you describe trying to manage it sounds like someone trying to fight off a grizzly bear with fingernails. I'm sure there are much more effective ways of managing English ivy if one is realistic about it. If you are opposed to the use of chemicals, it will be much more difficult... but not impossible. One would need to know details in order to suggest solutions.

@ whitecape2... I believe there is a coded message there. Hmmm.....

It's a fragment from Anacreon's lost "Life's Too Short for this *^#*!"

Life is enriched by learning opportunities, Whitecap, of which this is one.

One has to differentiate between political correctness (and the PC police) and rational, desirable change. I have not just seen but been part of many social change movements - indeed, I still am. But you couldn't find many people who are more opposed to political correctness than me. I've checked out of some social change movements because they went beyond equalizing to oppressing - such as the campaign for limiting second hand smoke.

But some campaigns do have to become oppressive, because certain behaviours need to be eradicated (to the extent possible), not just limited. Let's say, oh, slavery for example. I don't have a problem with the campaign against ivy becoming a campaign for eradication (ideally, it will not need to become a war). This is, as I alluded above, because you cannot remain in control of what happens after you plant it. And as to whether the ivy is one type or another, I think that is irrelevant. I noticed yesterday that my neighbour has planted some ivy on their hellstrip. It may be a less-invasive kind, but that doesn't mean it can't generate an ivy problem - here's how. It "models" planting ivy. So that means someone else may see how it's done, think it's a great idea, and plant the invasive kind.

And because this is the rainforest, yes, around here it matters. Planting ivy may, in fact, be a sort of enslavement of future owners of your property, as per Maureen's very evocative comment that she would like to go back in time and murder the person who planted it. She is enslaved, to the tune of many hours of her time and limitations as to what she can do with her property. Similarly, I am enslaved to weeding up thousands of Norway maple seedlings by my neighbours' tree, and by bindweed encroaching from next door. It is not an unjustified metaphor. I used to be enslaved, by a different tree on the other side, to endless gutter cleaning, fruitless gardening attempts, and cleaning up tree debris. Tree gone = work gone, freedom gained.

And it's funny, when we are talking to OPs around here about trees, we often talk about planting them so that they do not become a problem later. Ironic, isn't it, given that a tree can be cut down with relative ease and certainty?

And Maureen, I was very struck by your comment, which came across to me as a real cry from the heart and nothing irrational at all. It formed, in fact, the impetus for my earlier remarks about empathy and future home owners.

As for the rats, Yardvaark, I think it is clear enough that any time you are in the ivy, the rats will scurry out of your way, so in a big patch, they could easily stay out of your sight. I know I have them in the back yard, because the neighbour is a hoarder and provides fabulous habitat for them, but I never see them when I am out bustling around the yard during the day. My other neighbours, however, report that when they sit quietly in their yard in the evenings, they see the rats emerge, coming up trees and over the fence. The "fact" that I have not seen them does not hold up against the "fact" that they have seen them in a discussion of whether, in "fact", our mutual neighbour's hoarding is a problem or not. Isn't that the black swan argument?

Karin L

Unteachable, unreachable and unrepentant, these Invasive Plant Deniers.

"But some campaigns do have to become oppressive... slavery for example." The line is easy to draw. Where one's natural rights (not so called "acquired" rights) are breached an action must stop or be stopped. Living in close proximity does present its challenges to the finer points of legality, but I'd say in the vast majority of cases what one man expects of another is reasonableness. Worrying about what MIGHT happen (as in the "modeling" example) would not be sufficient for me to think it a breach of rights any more than thought or speech would be.

"Planting ivy may, in fact, be a sort of enslavement of future owners of your property... " If one buys a house with a condition already present and evident, they have no one to blame for the purchase but themselves. In Maureen's case, I believe that the situation is entirely manageable, but that she has either not yet learned how, or not yet committed to following through with what's required to control ivy.

I am not immune to the idea of being bothered by plants. I have dealt with many I've loathed. But at the bottom of my being bothered is a belief that I can overcome whatever it is that the offending plant throws at me ... usually by outsmarting it in one way or another. If I can't... or don't like the plant well enough that I want to, I eliminate it. So far, it is only nutsedge that really gripes me. But I can even deal with that, though it's more time consuming and expensive. Comparatively, Hedera helix is a breeze. Don't forget, I'm not speaking about it relative to west coast conditions as it's out of my realm, but neither should people in other realms say there is no place for it for other people in other places... and do everything they can to cause fear about it.

"As for the rats, Yardvaark... " ANYTHING is possible. But not necessarily probable or even likely. When it comes to plants and yard, I'm a ruthless dictator and tyrant. I require total submission and compliance. Nothing escapes my KGB style patrols. Usually, I'm patrolling the other side of the fence to see what's coming (and if I need to do any midnight eradication.) Any critter can walk into a yard. But living there?... an infestation?... not possible in my yard. What's more, being so involved in various aspects of the landscape industry, if there was a connection between rats and H. helix, surely I'd have at least heard of it from other people in the industry, or neighbors, or someone. But not until here did I ever hear it mentioned. It might just be a west coast thing. Since Sunset Western Garden and Southern Living Garden say EXACTLY the same verbage about Hedera (and rats) I don't think they're making much account of regional distinctions. The comments must be taken with a grain of salt.

@ maureeninmd"It's odd that you see this argument as political, when I see it as a matter of common sense and courtesy." There is little that disturbs a free, rational man as much as being prevented from acting in a way that makes sense to him and violates no inalienable right of another. When one forces their idea of "common sense" or "courtesy" on others, it's politics. With the comments that have been made, I don't doubt for a second that, if they could, most people writing on this thread would make it illegal for others to plant English ivy. I don't want to be told I can't use English ivy any more than anyone wants to be told they MUST use it.

At the root of the great disagreement about English ivy is probably the question of whether one man's use of it is a violation of another man's rights. Of course, I don't think it is and I'm pretty sure whitecap (hope you don't mind I nicked your name : ) is with me on that. Others see it differently. But if that's where the conversation is heading, it ought to go ahead and move on over to the attorney's forum where they can artfully hash it out. As long as H. helix is legal to plant, I don't want to be told not to do it or that there's something wrong with me because I see positive qualities in the plant. I'm interested in discussing its horticultural merits (or lack thereof) and management... not what's on the court docket. I'm not saying others shouldn't be able to express their thoughts about it, but that's what they should limit it to... THEIR thoughts about it. Not a demand that someone else should have or not have the same thoughts.

Do you (plural) seriously suppose the Texas Invasive Plants and Pests Council is in need of guidance and instruction from you? No, really, I'm not trying to goad you into self-destructing--I'm interested in knowing how you see yourselves. Messianic figures, perhaps?

Ivy is widely used here, and the very zealots who are alert for opportunities to jump on their soap boxes and wear out creation about the evils of nandina and photinia would think you a bit "off." There just aren't many substitutes for dry shade groundcover in this climate, and you will not see here the horrors you say exist elsewhere. Georgia may see otherwise, but Texas would appear to be at least as close to North Mississippi as Atlanta.

This business about ivy attracting rats is a bit much. I've never seen any rats in my ivy. Some of the photos I see here, on the other hand, aren't particularly suggestive that "best practices" with regard to sanitation are being scrupulously adhered to.

I went to Atlanta on Google Streetview in search of a property showing typical ivy use. The house sits on a flat top of the hill and has a sunny back yard. The property is about 3 acres or so. (These ivy areas would not be irrigated and are very drought tolerant. Also, there is no leaf raking as the leaves just sift down into the ivy.) As an alternative, what would one use instead of Hedera helix in this front yard?

Interestingly, in the lower picture (just across the street) is one of the more common alternate treatments of shaded hillsides (when people don't want ivy) ... pine straw.

To me, the ivy looks like a blanket of green wool covering the ground. The yard looks serene and peaceful and in the hot weather, cool. The pine straw area (these are typically in a state of straw depletion) looks scorched and barren. In the hot weather, they look hot and are hot.

(Why the people with the ivy yard felt compelled to keep the 18" grass strip is beyond me.)

{{gwi:22221}}

Here is how it's typically used in a small yard. What else could be substituted? (The red arrow points to the GRASS lawn next door... who would want to mow that?)

{{gwi:22222}}

Not to frolic too far off topic, but I have a quick question for 'vaark. For many years, I had a side yard covered in ivy, and it was simply gorgeous. About 10 years ago, though, after a long, cool damp spring, it started dying. I had piled some brush on top of it at the far end, and I suspect that caused the disease to get started. I've tried to get it going again every year since, sometimes in spring, sometimes in late fall. It does pretty good for a while, but eventually dies, the runners showing pinched growth just above the roots. I don't know if I'm overwatering it, or whether I have a fungus of some sort in the soil that just isn't going to depart. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

I've tried a number of alternatives. Not enough light for Asian Jasmine, and vinca was not at all attractive. I now have the yard covered with Blue Shade, Ruellia squarrosa. It looks good, and requires no watering, but dies back to the ground every time we have a severe winter. Sure wish I could get my ivy back.

Whitecap, I have not known English ivy to have disease problems so don't have any advice for you based on experience. Though it will survive in some pretty dim light, H. helix prefers moderate light for good growth. I'm speculating, if the light is too low for Asian Jasmine (which will take some pretty dark shade) it may be contributing to the ivy's poor condition. The description of "pinched growth" just about the ground sounds like a sure sign of disease (for an otherwise healthy plant) and that is often the result of unsuitable cultural conditions. Are there nearby examples of ivy that are doing well? What is the cause of the shade... trees? I would consider checking with local county agent to see if this is a trend or a unique situation. If unique, is there a way to increase light in the area?

Well, no, it's overrun a small patio off the "master" less than a hundred feet away. I'll be clearing it today, an hours work, no big deal. The problem area is shaded by large oaks, but purple heart, ardisia, mahonia, liriope and even a couple of containerized azaleas are doing well there. You see ivy all over the place in my area, and some of it died during last year's drought, but I haven't seen any indications of a generalized disease problem.

"The problem area is shaded by large oaks..." ...to the point of creating a gloomy pall? If too much shade, I'd lighten for general purposes... just to make the world a brighter place, but I can't say details without photos. Whitecap, other than that I am stumped. Checking with local county agent may be your best bet. If the other plants are doing well, I can't imagine that English ivy can't survive the light conditions, too.

During the years I lived in Georgia, we had a severe drought. To the best of my recollection, it seemed that it lasted for about 3 years. While much English ivy dried out pretty well and it's leaves turned 1/2 brown & crispy, with the eventual return of rain, it quickly overcame its sorry state. (Many tree died during this drought.)

I think I'd better keep the "gloomy pall" on the deck. Perhaps I need a light, airy mix of ferns, hellebores, hostea and the like, heh. Ah, me. Stage One Water Restrictions imposed today.

Yard - your photos of ivy's use in suburban Atlanta reminds of how it was used in Washington DC. Personally, I find it unattractive and unimaginative. From the picture you showed with the ivy on steep front yard, I would prefer the house with the terraces to the left, then the house with grass to the right and finally the house with ivy. And here in the PNW, there's no way I would ever consider it neighborly to plant ivy.

And I saw plenty of rats in the ivy in DC. Perhaps in more suburban areas without compost piles and less wildlife, the ivy is clearer of vermin.

One thing I was thinking is that perhaps with the kudzu the southeast is dealing with, the ivy doesn't seem that bad and thus not a thug. I know that if I had to choose between a yard overrun by ivy vs one overrun by blackberries, I'd choose the ivy. They're about equal in staying and straying power but the blackberries have thorns.

Our tolerance for diversity of opinion is such that we really don't care how you do it "out there."

"I find it [the large Atlanta ivy yard] unattractive and unimaginative." Then, what WOULD be attractive, imaginative, practical, and affordable as a one-acre lawn substitute in the Southeast? The highly vocal opponents of Hedera helix have become suddenly and oddly silent about answering this question.

"One thing I was thinking is that perhaps with the kudzu the southeast is dealing with, the ivy doesn't seem that bad..." Only because--unlike those on the west coast--we don't actually THINK or REASON. We just react. Why heck... blacktop 'd be fine with us!

"And I saw plenty of rats in the ivy in DC." How many is "plenty"? To make this claim believable, what would be the details of how you came to be in the ivy, were able to determine that it's an infestation (not just transient rats) and had such contact on more than a single occasion or in a single area? And in what context... residential... commercial? Let's hear details.

"As to why Algerian ivy is more commonly planted in the southwest could easily be presumed by its species name and more southern provenance; it grows better with less water in dryer climates.

On a stroll through the SF Bay area, I came across several examples of ivy that looked like this; it is clearly not English ivy:

{{gwi:22224}}

If it's true that Enlish ivy (H. helix) is not popular there because it doesn't like the low rainfall conditions, reason would have it (just trying a little of that here to see what it's like) that it's not going to be the best performer. If instead, its Algerian cousin (H. canariensis) is the popular ivy, and it's true that it's a thug... that would not justify applying facts about it, to another species. Notice the near shrub-like heaping up of H. canariensis in the photos. H. helix in southeastern U.S. does not grow at all like this. It stays flat and is easy to walk through (without mowing.) Obviously, we're talking about some significant differences between plants that people here seem to be referring to, generally, as "ivy." In other words... apples and oranges. Bahia claims that the initial photos posted here are H. canariensis. Where are the pictures of west coast H. helix that demonstrate the claims made for it out there?

In the above photos, it also appears that the property owner is intentionally trying to kill half of this ivy... and having a hard time of it (I speculate as the line between "life" and "death" in the photo is precise.) Because it's not English ivy, and is apparently more rambunctious, it may be that H. canariensis is very difficult to kill. But that, too, does not have bearing on what it takes to manage H. helix.

And now we have an admission that the California Invasive Plants Council has designated Hedera helix as "invasive" only in coastal forest and riparian areas. But I guess our resident savants are light years ahead of everyone.

"I find it [the large Atlanta ivy yard] unattractive and unimaginative." Then, what WOULD be attractive, imaginative, practical, and affordable as a one-acre lawn substitute in the Southeast? First, are you stating that the front yard shown in the second photo is 1 acre? As I stated in my list of preferences, the lawn would be more attractive. Why remove the lawn when it's more attractive than what you'll put in? I would rather mow what you pointed to and I have mowed steeper slopes, it's really not that hard. I will admit that the terraces shown which were my preferred option with the variety of plants is not as cheap as ivy. Some people want cheap cars and don't mind driving a yugo, others want a better looking, more expensive car. You obviously don't think ivy is a yugo, I do. That's my opinion. I also like Manet better than Monet.

"And I saw plenty of rats in the ivy in DC." How many is "plenty"? To make this claim believable, what would be the details of how you came to be in the ivy, were able to determine that it's an infestation (not just transient rats) and had such contact on more than a single occasion or in a single area? And in what context... residential... commercial? Let's hear details. I lived in DC for 7 years in both residential areas and those that were a mix of residential and commercial. I also worked in a commercial area that I walked to and from. So, the rats that I saw every day in the ivy near the park I walked by were most likely residents. When I lived in a basement apartment and the owner had ivy in the front yard, the rats I saw on a monthly basis were most likely transient to that particular yard but living in the neighborhood. As I said, DC is a city and much more urban. There are likely a lot more rats in any given urban neighborhood than there are in any given suburban neighborhood. Where there are rats, they need to live somewhere. People walk and play on the grass but avoid the ivy as it's not a pleasant walking surface. Why wouldn't they live in the ivy where they can dig and set up dens and not be bothered? Is there a magic in southeastern ivy that repels them that I missed?

With mention of the Cal. Invasives Plants Council, I thought I should pay a visit. So here follows their direct quote regarding the ivies in question. It should be observed, first and foremost, that Hedera helix and canariensis are lumped together as though they have the same characteristics, personality and temperament. We can pass this hurdle immediately already knowing that they have many differences. Pay attention to the words in blue. These statements indicate that the Hedera questions are yet to be settled and seems to acknowledge the existence of Hedera species/cultivars that do not rise to the level of being classified as a "problem" in California. The last sentence offers the hope of being able to sort out the issues, but does not guaranty successfully achieving it....

"English ivy or Algerian ivy
Hedera helix or Hedera caneriensis
Some ivy species in the Hedera genus are a problem in California. They can smother understory vegetation, kill trees, and harbor non-native rats and snails. It's difficult to distinguish problem species from less invasive ones. Do not plant ivy near natural areas, never dispose of ivy cuttings in natural areas, and maintain ivy so it never goes to fruit. Researchers hope to determine which ivies can be planted safely."

It should also be noted that it is CAPE IVY--an entirely different South African plant--that the organization is labeling as a threat to California "coastal and riparian" areas.

I cheerfully stand corrected.

Roaming the reaches of "outer space" they are, searching for monsters (and the odd rat) to slay.

@ tanowicki, Sorry, you were posting while I writing.

No, I'm not saying that the yard in 2nd picture is 1 acre. It's probably 1/16th A. It is the large, wooded yard (probably about an acre) where I am wondering what you (or others) would do in lieu of grass in order to produce a lawn substitute. Regarding the small urban lawn in the 2nd photo, I think it's a valid personal choice if a homeowner prefers mowing grass over maintaining a groundcover. But I don't think most people would agree that it's practical. I've seen people string-trimming such slopes and people mowing them with ropes attached to the lawn mower. But it doesn't seem like the best solution to me when a much easier one is at hand. That you don't like the look of uniform groundcover is a place where we can contentedly agree to differ, each of us happy with our choice. The terrace solution would be substantially more expensive.

I know there are rats in the world, but I have never been anywhere on a walk where "rats" are seen roaming about so it's hard for me to envision this as a normal, everyday situation. So far, I'm seeing about 1 rat per 20 years of life. They tend to be secretive and remain hidden so it's hard to conceive of how on your walk to work--"every day"--you are seeing them. I can imagine such a scene could exist within walking distance of restaurant dumpsters (not where I hang) or similar conditions. Since the ivy itself is not a food source for rats it would have to mean that some food source is nearby. I suggest that THAT's the problem. Not the ivy. "Where there are rats, they need to live somewhere." This is true. But if it is not a food source that their homes themselves offer, I suggest that ANY groundcover over a few inches tall, dense shrub, dilapidated structure, pile of garbage, or what have you would provide protection and cover and be an attractive home for them. If Hedera helix is available it will work. But that rats are specifically seeking it is a long way from being demonstrated by your observations. We should also mention that the issue of roof rats is a whole other ballgame. While ivy (or any other vine or plants in the vicinity of homes) might could justifiably be accused of being USED BY roof rats, so could downspouts, stucco and a variety of other building materials, urban devices, power lines, etc. NOT having any ivy, guarantees almost no one freedom from roof rats. They are capable of getting to roofs many ways but not through ivy that grows on the ground.

I'm not jumping your case whitecap. I appreciate that you spurred me to go an look. Thank you.

Rats -- I only saw live rats 2 or 3 times in the ivy growing over the fence from the neighbor's yard -- but I never saw live rats anywhere else in the garden, ever. The few times I saw them was either late in the day, or while trimming the ivy on my side of the fence. It was ancient and flowered every year. Boots regularly left heads, feet, and entrails of rats at the back door for early morning inspection, but I have no way of knowing where he got them, and he refused to reveal his sources.

Yardvaark, I think you are asking of Tano a level of scientific certainty you are not able to provide about your own assertions, KGB-like maintenance or not. As I said, you cannot prove there were no rats, and if there are rats, it is not certain without interviewing them them whether they are transient of resident. For all intents and purposes it is enough that ground cover plants provide cover for travel... perhaps from one site of residence to a new one, or just for popping over to visit the in-laws.

For myself, I dislike the ivy yard you showed because - another of the many ways in which we differ - I don't like monoculture plantings in residential settings. Hard for me to say what I would do instead since I really don't know the plants of the region. But maybe Kudzu would be good. Just kidding.

I do know behaviour and argument, and I think if we are all going to try to get along (and whitecap was not part of that, so is welcome to continue being a supercilious jerk), it might be an idea to stop short of seeking full capitulation. KGB is fine for landscape maintenance but not so good for civil conversation.

I will admit I have learned a couple of things here. For example, I did not know that some types of ivy are not considered invasive, nor did I know that there are conditions under which ivy won't grow. That doesn't change that I don't like it, nor that I won't plant it or recommend it.

I simply don't like plants that grow like that whether they are native or not. I rejected the native movement around here on the basis that (a) I don't like a lot of the plants, and (b) when one of the native nazis wrote that salal would make a good ground cover. Yeah, the stuff of which a single plant has covered the entire Pacific Northwest.

So I don't appreciate being lumped in as a native plant nazi because I oppose the planting of ivy for any reason. A little nuance would be welcome here.

Karin L

Some of the replies border on the absurd, and don't seem capable of of grasping the salient points. I get that you two ivy lovers don't have much use for the why's and hows of listing plants as invasives, how bird spread invasives can be particularly problematic, or comparisons between different ivy species as coming to the conclusion that similarities in how they invade apply equally. I see the point being made that you find no useful substitute for how you use it for landscaping in your part of the country. Not really my issue to solve for you; there may not be a plant you could substitute in exactly the same way. Were I you, I might be more inclined to think differently about the design and planting choices so I didn't feel backed into that particular corner. As English or Algerian ivies are still perfectly legal to plant across the country, and their potential negative impacts don't concern you, you're both free to continue planting them and accusing others of irrational fear mongering for having different opinions.

Hedera helix does grow just fine here, if babied with lots of regular summer irrigation. It is less successful in full sun conditions away from the coast, where it can sun burn without summer shade. Our lack of summer rain and drier humidity result in Algerian ivy being more widely planted because it is more broadly tolerant of the climate while using less precious water. Mass plantings of English ivy can be painfully slow to completely fill in without lots of irrigation and interim weeding.

The basis for both species of ivy being listed as invasives is exactly because both species can widely reseed if allowed to form fruiting mature growth. In heavily populated coastal California communities, this occurs often enough that BIRD SPREAD SEED can spread both species into coastal woodlands and riparian habitats. I fail to see how this point about ivy keeps getting lost or ignored by Yard and Whitecap. Birds also exist across the country and can spread ivy berries as easily anywhere either species of ivy grows, has been allowed to fruit as it
is primed to do, and is well adapted to
regions or habitats that have sufficient soil moisture spread throughout the year for it to establish. For anyone that has a passing knowledge of California and its various widely divergent microclimates, it shouldn't appear illogical that both ivy species are of more concern to wild areas only in those areas where it can establish itself. As riparian habitats occur across the state, this can put riparian vegetation of widely varying species at risk of being smothered/displaced by ivy. By the way, in case it isn't obvious, birds that may consume ivy in a residential neighborhood are often drawn to creeks, rivers, etc; making ivy's spread that much faster/likely.

As to rats seeking out ivy, it should also be obvious that the cover ivy provides is beneficial to their survival as it screens them from view of raptors which eat them. Apart from ivy also providing perfect habitat for snails, at least here along the west coast USA,, which also both attracts rats and benefits their population growth. I fail to see how someone can continue to deny these corollary effects of large scale ivy plantings.

Lastly, monoculture plantings of ivy, be it English or
Algerian, tend to be habitat deserts for insects and fauna that might otherwise be found in such locations if not planted to ivy. I do consider this another perfectly valid reason to avoid using it. On
a less ecological but more social level, ivy planted at large scale
impedes access for people, in ways that other monocultural
plantings such as lawn don't. Lawns don't tend to encourage rat
population growth, either..

As to what other ground cover could easily replace English ivy for southeastern shaded locations and be planted in mass and not be as problematic; maybe the supposed need for a uniform height, shade tolerant mass planted ground cover isn't the absolute necessity you've made it out to be, but merely an easy out design choice for people who do.t care about unintended consequences, of creating more work for the neighbors who may not share the same love of ivy...

And now each of the Gold Dust Twins will hammer out a rebuttal...

Hee...

Persisting in this dogmatic insistence that the cultivation of ivy represents a "crime against nature" everywhere, without exception, ignoring the evidence that the great weight of informed authority is against you, does not inspire deference. Regrettably, it will be seen by some as validating "stereotypical" thought processes.

"I don't like monoculture plantings in residential settings." The argument isn't because I'm trying to convince you to like monoculture. It's because you're trying to convince me it deserves no place. Fine for you to believe that. Fine for me to believe otherwise.

"I fail to see how someone can continue to deny these corollary effects of large scale ivy plantings." Because, friend, those corollary effect do not apply outside of your zone of knowledge even though you're trying to impose them there.

"I see the point being made that you find no useful substitute for how you use it for landscaping in your part of the country." Finally, the tiniest dent is made. It seems that no one else has a good recommendation either. Amazing how some are ready to discombobulate another person's solution while they offer no suitable alternative.

The point cannot be missed that OTHER plants can EQUALLY PROVIDE COVER for undesirable wildlife. Some people don't seem capable of of grasping the salient points.

Hah, I found the plant in my garden today that I would use if I wanted an ivy-look but no ivy, but of course it had no tag any more... I think it is Cardamine trifolia. Forms a totally weed-suppressing, evergreen mat and has nice white flowers to boot. Grows in dry shade. Not tall enough to provide rat cover. Even copes with leaf fall to some extent.

Did I mention I dislike the groundcover Hypericum as much as I dislike ivy? I love the shrubby varieties, but that groundcover one makes me want to set off a bomb every time I see it. Always ill-kempt might be why.

"The argument isn't because I'm trying to convince you to like monoculture. It's because you're trying to convince me it deserves no place." Ah, you know, there we have the nub of the matter again - it always comes to this, and so I'm going to try to address it again - call me stubborn.

Fact is, no one has ever, on this forum, tried to convince you of anything, that I recall (except that no one is trying to convince you of anything). What happens over and over again is that you give one type of advice to an OP, and someone else gives a different type of advice to the OP, that contradicts or cautions about your advice - and you respond in defense and seem to want to convince the other person that your advice should prevail. So you say monoculture, someone else says diversity, and there should be no need AT ALL for you to say anything else. You have both had your say to the OP, and let the OP take it from there.

This really is not landscape consulting. It's more like a potluck dinner hosted by the OP. We all bring a dish. Maybe you don't like mine, and I don't like yours. But the OP can taste, and even enjoy, them both. Neither of us needs to eject the other from the gathering. But we can say something about each other's dishes.

Look, other people around here are disagreeing with each other all the time, and what happens with you rarely happens with anyone else (I'm not going to say never). That's because we either move to clarify, and the conversation actually gets better, or we disengage and let the OP sort it out. Again, that is who we are talking to. So if you advise a multi-trunk shrub by the house, and I say that such a shrub might be better away from the house, you don't have to say anything because I was talking to the OP. I'm not trying to convince you. I'm giving the OP extra information with which they can make a decision that works for them.

Maybe you said to the OP "try my scalloped potatoes." And I say to the OP, "sometimes scalloped potatoes are high in fat." You might want to clarify if you made yours with mozzarella instead of cheddar and with skim milk rather than cream. But you don't have to try to convince me that scalloped potatoes are low in fat. Because, you know, they're not. But if I know you, you will :-)

On the other hand, my dish may be quite low in fat and I might offer it as such. You might say "yes, but it tastes awful." You once said I would engage if someone called me an ecoterrorist or something but you know, I wouldn't. I'll say something like "well, my kids manage to choke it down" and let the OP make up their own mind.

Look, DD and Bahia just both disagreed with something I said on another thread. Heck, they ridiculed what I said. No sweat. I'll clarify why I said what I did, if I feel like any additional information would help to position the option for the OP, and maybe they clarify too, and then we move on, maybe all the wiser, maybe not. Sometimes I don't say anything at all if I've said my piece and feel it stands as it is.

The fact that someone is referencing what you said does not mean that they are trying to convince you of anything. But once you engage, YOU are certainly trying to convince THEM. You are like a pit bull who holds on until you hear the word "uncle." OK, that's a mixed metaphor.

What I sense you driving for in these conversations is to get to the point where for the other poster says "you're right, that is the best advice." That is like saying the host needs to decide on one dish that is brought to the potluck. Not gonna happen.

The potluck consists of what we all bring to the meal. We can denigrate, ridicule, and suggest no one eat what the other person brought, but we can't stop anyone or the cook themselves from eating it, nor can any of us prevent others from going home and COOKING THE SAME THING AGAIN for their families.

Whatever. I did my best. I appreciate your perspectives partly because they are so different from mine. I like diversity in ideas as well as in plants. But I'm not going to adopt your ideas because they are not mine. And I'm not going to cheerlead for them. I don't expect you to cheerlead for me either. If I go off track, tell the OP what I said wrong. With luck, others will chime in and the OP will have a full menu to choose from.

Karin L

In fact, I've understood your point about no good substitutes with similar ease of growth all along Yard, and don't bother condescending to use words like "friend" in your replies. In this part of the country, equally boring monoculture ground covers such as Vinca major or Hypericum calycinum tend to be used in situations such as your dry shade, but have their own downsides. Hypericum can look shabby at times, and does need more consistent irrigation here locally, as well as annual mowing back to keep it looking fresh. The Vinca major and Hypericum both have the virtue of being dead easy and don't climb trees, but both can also naturalize in coastal woodlands and riparian habitats here in California. The one benefit these both have over English ivy is that they aren't invasive via birds. Even in England where Hedera helix is native and provides winter nectar and winter blooming appreciated by the locals, as well as food for local birds; it is still a nuisance plant that can invade neighbor's gardens whether they want it or not.

I haven't seen you respond even one time here as to whether English ivy isn't a problem invasive in at least some parts of the southeast. And again; as i keep repeating, caution is in order when planting other known bird spread invasive plants such as Nandina, Japanese Honeysuckle, Ligustrum lucidum, etc if these are known to be problem invasives in your area. I don't see one iota of any concern for such potential problems from you, and instead the emphasis is always on how useful ivy is for the purposes you need to accommodate.

I get that, enough said on the topic from my end, continue to enjoy your right to ignore unintended consequences. After all, rare or endangered plants/animals/insects at risk from escaped ornamental plantings of ivy which then become further vectors of more infestations are of no concern to you. This is the message I receive loud and clear from your unabashed support for ivy. There is no bridging of this philosophical divide, but I'll leave you and Whitecap to have the last word, that's a promise...

If only sanctimony could be bottled, and there were a market for it. . .

You have to let them get the last word, or the discussion will never end.

I suggest a little glance in the mirror, Whitecap. If you are looking for sanctimony, that is where you will find it. You have not yet perfected the art of letting others be as free as you want them to leave you, nor of giving others the respect you would like to generate. And that is why you fail to get it.

Karin L

Objections to uninformed ethical bossiness did not begin, nor will they end, with this thread.

As for "respect," surely it is not supposed that I am unaware that I here tread upon hostile ground. I'm not permitted to comment on the "progressive" mindset on sites like Daily Kos.

"So if you advise a multi-trunk shrub by the house, and I say that such a shrub might be better away from the house, you don't have to say anything because I was talking to the OP. I'm not trying to convince you."

So Karin, according to your "pot luck" theory of the way the forum should work, when you recommend an idea I disagree with, I can comment to the OP about what a horrible idea your suggestion is is? ....and since I'll be talking to the OP, you'll not say anything in defense of your idea (as that would be construed as trying to convince me)... even if you think my justification is not valid? Instead of focusing my comments negatively on the ideas of others, I'm generating my own ideas and defending them... or bolstering the good comments I see others make. My mistake.

"Look, DD and Bahia just both disagreed with something I said on another thread. Heck, they ridiculed what I said. No sweat. I'll clarify why I said what I did, if I feel like any additional information would help to position the option for the OP ..." Now I'm confused. According to your "pot luck" theory, YOU can come back"...because that's CLARIFICATION. If I do, it's trying to CONVINCE others and jam something down their throat....?? Karin, what you've described sounds very much to be a psycho-twisted Twilight Zone sort of arrangement... weighted in favor of what you agree with and against what you oppose.

It sounds to me like you want to have your cake and eat it, too.

Bahia, don't bother to condescend with your manipulative, phony environmental warnings.

Why can't you just accept the judgment that you're an environmental cretin, and let it go? Everyone's entitled to their opinion, you know?

"Mirror, mirror, on the wall
Who's the most ethical of them all?"

No, Yardvaark, I am not trying to have it both ways; clarifying is different from what you do.

In a way this is made both easier and more complicated by the fact that there are two design elements that you are really attached to and continue to use over and over, while most other people will post different suggestions depending on the context. The two ideas that you like do have some weaknesses, so they are pointed out every time - thus we get into the same conversations over and over.

In contrast, ideas being articulated for the first time may not be clear and may need clarification; also, if a bunch of parameters need to be played off against each other, it takes some time to work out which ones really matter to the OP. So I say clematis, Bahia says rosemary. In critiquing each others' suggestions, or in presenting what we think are their advantages, we bring out different elements of both options, and of others, that actually help the OP start to think through the implications of either plant - annual maintenance vs. once in a blue moon, for example. Plant hanging fairly flat on wall vs. quite a thick pad under the green layer. A tracery of branches vs a mass. The critique pushes us to develop our ideas, rather than to defend them. We are moving toward helping the OP develop the vision, not creating a tug of war between the two of us. When you respond you quite often are not adding information about your advice, but simply putting forward your idea more forcefully. There is little point to that. Sometimes, in contrast, you do add info, and that is welcome, not a problem.

To be specific about one of your favoured elements, my experience says that a deciduous shrub planted against the house wall is usually going to lean for the light. Your taste says that a big blank wall on a house invites shrubbery planted against it. So you are always going to advise an OP toward that, and I am always going to advise an OP of the possible outcome and suggest an alternate approach. That does not have to turn into an argument every time. You could forestall it by either saying it yourself to start with, or simply by not reacting when I say my piece. Again, I do not react when someone justifiably eliminates my suggestions or if they point out their downsides. Look at threads where I say a tree could or should be cut down. I don't get into an argument with the whole forum insisting that I'm right (even if I post more than once). I let other suggestions play against mine so the OP gets, again, a full menu of options.

In saying what I do about the behaviour of plants that you recommend, I am not discrediting you or any other advice you give. I don't know what else to say to convince you to just let these things go when they come up. Perhaps you are like this in real life too, but I really do get a feeling there is a nice guy behind your conviction that two planting approaches are going to work for all applications.

We all have pet issues, or pet peeves, sometimes because there are common misconceptions that are brought to the forum (you know, the "riot of colour, low maintenance" type). We do get into mutually abusive and sometimes (fortunately) hilarious mutual insults. It's not all sweetness and light, but what I think captures its essence is that it is always going somewhere. There is something about how you argue that has us all stuck in one place, one rut, one groove on the record. That is what I keep trying to get us all out of - but in the end, we can only change our own behaviour, not anyone else's.

By the way, does Asarum canadense grow in the southeast? That is another one that might be an ivy alternative in my area if that look is wanted.

Karin L

PS an old thread is linked below in which monoculture planting is discussed at some length.

Here is a link that might be useful: is simple boring?

Karin, I do think you want it both ways. My way of dealing with the suggestions that you make over and over and over is to say nothing to little about them. I let the OP sort out whether they want to cut down their mature trees or nave no foundation plantings. Quietly, I almost always disagree with those solutions, but say nothing. You, however, are insistent on sweeping in before or after me with a big warning sign cautioning the OP to watch out for the horrible suggestion that I've made or will make. I don't see it as clarification. Bringing this back to ivy, so much of what you claim is either wrong, or just your personal bias. It NEEDS clarification.

There's no longer any mystery about whether we'll remain at odds about landscape philosophy or how the forum should operate. In spite of that, I believe that getting along is possible. Let's let the Golden Rule prevail. If wish to "clarify" issues about my posts to "help" the OP in their decision-making process, surely you will view it as equally important that I do the same.

By all means. And then it will be my job to respond productively.

Karin L

My sleep was greatly troubled last night by the shock of being informed (in terms most cutting) that, despite having here listened in silence to hopelessly trite "talking points" about U.S. foreign policy and cultural ('Gold Dust Twin') slurs directed at me by resident "stewards of the environment," I can here expect no "respect." The horra. . .

I hate to participate in a pub fight - but I have to say: Whitecap, with the language you've been using here, it's only natural to get such responses!

To make a clean breast of it, it would be disingenuous of me to seriously suggest that I haven't enjoyed myself immensely.

Please don't feed the trolls...

I know you can do better than that.

I kind of empathize little, this plant, lol, if one does not properly care or care for, things can get out of control, goes for just about anything. Take care, use moderation in some things done and cared for, pay close attention, keep up and don't dismiss some things as simply over looked and you will not have an potentially invasive mess on your hands. Out here it would die if it was not an indoor plant, giving it a chance at life is harmless here and the reward is the flourishing it does adding a unique decor to the place as it covers the stump. entertaining upside down pic algerian ivy. as far as i know it is algerian.

please excuse the wildflower tulip, it is a little oddity which has broken a winter rest, thirsty for light, it has led's coming, it'll live.. Anyway orchids have a society, african violets, tulips, daffodils, etc., etc.and so does ivy. Your not nutty for liking ivy, I suppose what you call it is, perhaps, civilized.

of course it can succumb easy to bright light and water. the fact i found and easy way to eradicate scarlet trumpet vine, blood meal, simple as that, speaks volumes. people gripe about trumpet vine almost as much as ivy. trumpet vine, campesis radicans, makes a great bonsai, as does ivy. ivy dies easy, too much light and it's a goner, too much water it has no hope, same with over drying. So potted plants are not much to fear in terms of invasive potential, here, it is the yard plants that are the concern, root potential is increased and plants have plenty of room too frolic. Really who wants to spend the money on removal or a city ticket for blight. Rats are something that no one wants around, from lassa virus in africa to plague here in the states some of the worst diseases are rodenta spread. The Native Americans had a problem with rats that led to a bad virus years ago, on reservations. With rats come warfin based chemicals, snakes, strays looking for a snack and other wild life and chemicals that equals a bad mess. Here we have rattlesnakes that get as big enough to eat prarie dogs. While the snakes can be rustled and cooked up, taking a stroll on a bike to capture photos of places that do not belong to you, it could cost you your life by the bite of a big fat rattler, that could be longer than you are tall. We don't see rats here and field mice don't last long. It's buzzards and snakes, gophers and ground hogs where termites and wood boring beetles are more threats to homes and trees than ivy ever could be. People do not always realize the danger, size and longevity of snakes. Killer bee's could just enjoy the heck outa ivy as well as they do public trash cans here. You see more cactus and scrub trees here than you ever will ivy. Trumpet vine struggles here, but with proper watering, thrives, which is amazing. Rabies pops up occasionally from the strange rodents and wild canines. So, really, griping about neighbor's ivy is comical to me, even cute. Here you watch where you walk and listen for the rattle and don't gripe about neighbor because they might be the very people who warn you about the snakes or tell ya to watch out for the buzzard. Ya'll crack me up. Thanks for starting the thread, it's great.

I have lived in several cities/states and have never seen eng ivy
Overtaking a landscape. Been to ca a few times, missed your ivy problem.
I like ivy its trying to cover one of my patios. If I didn't water my grass
And shrubs the ivy would die just like the cactus in the desert here is
Dying.
The ivy is green year round here. Rats/mice are not a problem. They
Like dcon. Where there are people there are rodents. Right now the
Hawks and owls are feasting on them.
I like the ivy in my yard I'm glad the former owners left it behind.
Josephene

Jo- The owls and hawks and maybe your beloved pets are eating your Dcon poisoned rodents and are also dying a horrible death. Wise up! Min