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danielj_2009

When Does Simple Design become Boring?

danielj_2009
13 years ago

So I sat here for about 15 minutes trying to come up with a title for this post (still not sure I got it right). In other words, I'm confused about what I'm confused about. :o)

We rebuilt a house ground up and need to redo the landscaping. I thought of doing a lot of DIY stuff, but the more I look into it, the more it seems I need professionals with the right equipment, and I do not feel qualified to get the design right.

I met with a designer/installer who has been in the business for 55 years and strikes me as extremely professional and more than qualified. Based on his description of their other jobs, he does a lot of high end work for money-no-object type people. Example - One of his clients had someone plant $12,000 worth of ivy (yes, just ivy), which was eaten by deer in 3 days. He took on the job and planted ferns. I haven't seen their work in real life, but they do have some beautiful pics on their website. Anyway, his daughter lives in my neighborhood and I asked him to look at our property and see what he recommends. Turns out he's interested in the job (1/3 acre total property), so I guess everybody needs work.

Now, over the last year or so I've had ideas in my head about what plants/grasses I liked and the fact that in my area I don't see really any landscapes that I like. The plants are either growing poorly or are just boring. So here are some concepts I'm learning from this designer (hopefully I'm paraphrasing correctly):

- If you have a beautiful house, don't allow the landscaping to compete with the house. Complement the house.

- Use large areas of the same or similar plant rather than using many different plant types.

- Don't plant gardens in the front of the house - keep it simple in front (again, if the house shows well) and use the back yard for gardens/ponds and so on if that's what you like.

- When implementing a design, don't try to do everything at once - it gets too complicated and expensive. Take a couple of seasons and do things at the right time of year.

So he did a preliminary design, and gave me prices for irrigation, regrading/ cleaning up of the entire site, and for installation of his initial design. I guess what worries me is this idea of simplicity. For the front yard and up against the front porch he's got 16 gold coast junipers that will complement the house color, 6 2.5' boxwoods, one 6' holly, one deer proof arborvitae. In the back he's putting a bunch of trees in, but that's another story.

So I've got a neighbor who is a landscaper and just redid his own property. I have to say it doesn't look half bad but my designer absolutely hates it. I asked why, and he said just too much going on - like a bunch of M&M's scattered about. This leaves me wondering if I just don't know enough about landscape design or if he just has a very simple, plain esthetic that may be neither right nor wrong. I'm all for the "less is more" outlook, but only if it pans out when it's done.

I believe this gentleman knows tasteful design, but before I trust him with my yard I'm trying to learn more about "correct" design vs just one man's opinion. I'm not sure I even asked a question in this post, but any comments are very much appreciated.


Comments (116)

  • karinl
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    As always, Wellspring is bang on and has zeroed in quite wisely on the word "boring?" but another word (or set of words) just jumped out at me: "my designer."

    Daniel, I think you better bite the bullet and hire this guy - you're in whether you know it or not Your own words betray you! You must be driving him nuts :-) You're certainly driving yourself nuts. I think you (and maybe we all) want to see this vision take form. You BETTER post "after" photos!

    The way I see it is still as I said a while upthread: I think you want him doing your grading, sodding, etc. I also think you are dying to see what he does with the junipers. And it may look fabulous! At least, now that he's abandoned the circle idea, I'm willing to think it very well may.

    But the real draw is that the worst case scenario is no big deal. His plan only entails about $200 worth of plants (if he starts 'em small). You give it a year or two to grow on you, and if you hate it, you rip it out and put your preferred plants (alternating blue and white Hebes or whatever pleases you) on the graded, sodded, irrigated lot.

    This is not like a design proposition that asks you to spend thousands on hardscape and bring in boulders that you won't ever be able to move without a backhoe. These are just 16 junipers, in addition to the ground work that you really want him doing too.

    KarinL

  • rhodium
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What I see is a contrast between these two designs like a Tale of Two Cities. One a subtle approach and another a kinda loud approach. It just depends on your tastes.

    Look at the next Hollywood red-carpet event and you'll see the same thing - tacky, tasteful, call for attention, and elegant- but all in the eye of the observer.

    Okay I'm done with my speech!

  • rusty_blackhaw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Regarding Experienced/Ancient Landscaper Dude's Design Principles:

    - If you have a beautiful house, don't allow the landscaping to compete with the house. Complement the house.

    Where is it written that having an attractive and enjoyable garden detracts from the appearance of the house? Example: all the historic and grand homes in Great Britain known for their fabulous gardens. By Landscaper Dude's logic, Christopher Lloyd should have stuck to gold coast junipers and boxwoods rather than having varied and exciting plantings (as I recall, his home looked pretty snazzy despite his zeal for gardening).

    - Use large areas of the same or similar plant rather than using many different plant types.

    This goes with Principle #1. It may reflect a preference for simplicity, but on the other hand it could well mean that Landscaper Dude has never bothered to learn much about plants and feels intimidated by those who have such knowledge. Or maybe his brother-in-law gives him a good wholesale deal on gold coast junipers.

    - Don't plant gardens in the front of the house - keep it simple in front (again, if the house shows well) and use the back yard for gardens/ponds and so on if that's what you like.

    Traditional but not necessarily good advice. I personally favor keeping the really good stuff in back if only to prevent it from being stolen. Plus you don't want passersby falling into the pond and scaring the fish.

    - When implementing a design, don't try to do everything at once - it gets too complicated and expensive. Take a couple of seasons and do things at the right time of year.

    Sounds OK - but I'd say you could throw caution to the winds and put in those gold coast junipers all at once. :)

    "'Tis a sin to be simple, 'tis the gift to be free,
    'Tis the gift to plant just what we want to see,
    And when we find ourselves in the place just right,
    'Twill be in the garden of love and delight.

    (with apologies to the Shakers)

  • inkognito
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Talking of ancient dudes, do you still have that Creedence tee shirt eric? If your box brownie is digital post some pics of the victor/victoria to blow simplicity out of the water.

  • wellspring
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ancient Designer Dude ...

    Can't you just picture the poster to go with that? Like "The Nerd" poster of the seventies, with helpful text and lines drawn to indicate the pocket protecters, slide rule, and mecanical pencil. That's on The Nerd. Wonder what the classic garb of an identifiable "Ancient Designer Dude" would be.

  • fouquieria
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Can't you just picture the poster to go with that? Like "The Nerd" poster of the seventies...

    Yes I can:
    {{gwi:27925}}

    Steve Wozniak

  • fouquieria
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Daniel, trust your designer. I think he's got his stuff
    together.

    Lot's of families today can't afford (as in time) a high-maintenance yard. Absolutely nothing wrong with simple and elegant.

    -Ron-

  • isabella__MA
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Another common theme here in this post and others seems to be desire to be unique... Everybody wants to be unique and stand out from the crowd. Therein lies a design spiral for the more complexity, color, and crazy vigenttes. But if everyone in the neighborhood has a red, green, yellow, blue, black, and white shrub then is your's really that unique, as you have pointed out.

    Maintenance as a design constraint should not be under-estimated. Biting off more than you can chew on and watching the area go downhill will ruin any design very quickly.

  • laag
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ... so we end where we began. Trust your designer, but if you are discussing whether or not you trust your designer for two weeks, how is that possible?

    Is the design boring? How could it be boring if we can talk about it for two weeks and nothing has changed? It's rather funny when you think about it.

    Anyone who thinks being a professional designer is all about being good at putting plants together needs to read this thread and realize that maybe 20% of it is putting the design together while 30% is selling yourself to the client, 20% is analyzing the client and site, 20% is getting them to understand what you are trying to do, and 10% is adjusting what you are trying to do to the client's personal details. Whenever you are not thorough in that other 80%, you leave the client in doubt. The whole reason anyone hires a designer is to remove doubt. When you leave a client in doubt, you are either not an effective professional designer, or you just don't have chemistry with your client, or your client is a PITA (not likely, but always possible).

    Is Danielj in doubt? If so, why?

  • peachymomo
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    After days of enjoying this discussion in silence I've decided I have to weigh in.

    I think that gardens composed entirely of evergreen shrubs that always look good but never look great are boring. They are good for people who don't want to spend time gardening and for businesses, but not for me. I love seasonal displays and I'm willing to put more time and work into the garden for them. I happen to enjoy puttering around in my garden deadheading roses and looking for disease and pest problems, most people probably wouldn't.

    It's already been said but bears saying again, the most important thing is just that your garden makes you happy. So try to figure out what would make you most happy to see and do and go with that. And you can always start with what your designer does and just put some annuals in pots for splashes of color. That way you can move them around and experiment with different colors and shapes.

    Lastly I must second the request for pictures of the finished product. Please!

  • mjsee
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    WHOAH! An Eric from Oh sighting...suWHEET! Seriously...very pleased you popped in.

    THREADJACK--

    Eric...I'd love to see what you've been planting lately. Start a thread? Pretty please?

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    wellspring said:
    I havent met any plants that do the can-can, tell great jokes, or spellbind an audience with their scintillating conversation. What makes a plant boring to you? That it cant flower? That it is green? That it looks the same all the time?

    LOL. Funny. At least the venus fly trap and pitcher plant can eat stuff... nothing boring about carniverous flora. Your description of the evolution of plant appreciation is excellent and really goes to the heart of this thread. Do I have a designer who is boring and/or stuck in the past and/or isn't putting any effort into the job, or am I missing something? I've said it before, but I don't want to make an uneducated decision.

    I've experienced much of what you describe. Just a brief story of my own: When I was in college and 20 something I used to travel out to the the Rockies and to the west coast a couple of times a year. I'd always marvel at places like Muir woods. The forests seemed so primitive and foreign to the deciduous forests in the east where I grew up. But then I met a guy from San Diego who talked so much about how he loved New England architecture and the fall colors. It got me realizing that maybe I was overlooking the beauty of what we have in the east, and so I started to take more notice of things I took for granted in the past. So, really, I've grown plants and gardened off and on for much of my life. However, I've never paid much attention to design and so I end up in this thread. :)

    What do I mean by boring? Good question actually. You and others make a very good point that you have to look at the overall design and not just the individual plants. If we take the yew for example, off the top of my head, "boring" means: a plant used by everybody for the last 50 years (and usually not kept in the condition it should be, hence not showing itself well); to use an analogy, if you look up the word "car" in the dictionary you'd see a picture of a K car. Look up bush and there's a picture of a yew. There's nothing particularly remarkable about the shape or color of the bush, nor the individual leaves. So in my mind the beauty in the yew must be in how it is used in the overall design.

    As far as your comment about all the other colorful landscapes becoming boring because they are all the same... yes, I suppose I'd like something different from what everybody else has. If everybody were driving the exact same car and that's all I saw all day, I'd probably want to drive something different (unless everybody was driving a Ferrari, or course). However, I don't want to make a design mistake just to be different. If there is a good reason to be simple in the front and more crazy in the back, then I want to learn and be able to appreciate the concept.

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    karinl said:
    Daniel, I think you better bite the bullet and hire this guy - you're in whether you know it or not Your own words betray you! You must be driving him nuts :-) You're certainly driving yourself nuts.

    I was wondering if someone would accuse me of a Freudian slip by saying "my" designer. It is just a simple way to refer to this designer, rather than saying "the designer who I am considering to use for this job." I wouldn't read too much into it. As for driving anybody nuts, I'm probably doing it to you guys more than anyone else! I enjoy discussing this stuff because I have time before I have to decide anything, and it is a really good way for me to learn, as long as you guys keep writing I'll keep listening and get a better idea of what I like.

    The rest of your post is pretty much right on. The complication is that the grading and irrigation requires a pretty good idea of what the design will be up front. Also, as most of the plants are going to be pretty big (2.5' boxwood and 6' holly) we're talking considerably more than $200 for plants. It is a bit of an investment, but nothing outrageous. The real money is in cleaning up/grading/irrigation and sod.

    QUESTION: Does anybody know why I can only post one time with the same Subject? I have to add another question mark to make the Subject a little different each time I post. Is there some kind of time limit on the number of posts?

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    eric wrote:
    Where is it written that having an attractive and enjoyable garden detracts from the appearance of the house? Example: all the historic and grand homes in Great Britain known for their fabulous gardens...

    ... it could well mean that Landscaper Dude has never bothered to learn much about plants and feels intimidated by those who have such knowledge. Or maybe his brother-in-law gives him a good wholesale deal on gold coast junipers.

    I believe in our first meeting he used the example of houses in England. Things are kept simple and traditional in the front, and all the gardens are in the back yard. I don't know if that is a universal thing, but that's what he said.

    I should probably reiterate that he's mentioned maintenance more than once. He says every homeowner is gung-ho about their yard in the spring when the weather turns nice, but by August they are all inside or on vacation while the landscape continues to need maintenance. In my case, I'm south-facing. That may be weighing in more on his design than I give credit. He said on the north side of the house I can do a lot more "fun" things.

    Also, I know you're probably being tongue-in-cheek but if you met this guy you'd know it isn't possible that he doesn't know enough about plants and is intimidated.

    What kind of design do you like for a yard like mine? Do you like the neighbor's with a blend of evergreen and perennials?

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    isabella wrote:
    Maintenance as a design constraint should not be under-estimated. Biting off more than you can chew on and watching the area go downhill will ruin any design very quickly.

    Early on I said I see few landscapes that I really like. I'm starting to believe a big part of that is that most landscapes are not well maintained. I see yews that are bare branches from the ground to half way up the bush, with a green top like a crew cut, for instance. I see rows of arborvitae that are chewed up from the ground to the upper reach of a deer's mouth, and so on.

    Also, "my designer" (take note, karinl) talked about many of the plantings on the block being traditional 1950's and 60's designs. I see the yew being part of that and I didn't want a 1950 design on a new house. But then I looked at all the new designs down the street and got an equal dose of boring repetition there, too. :)

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    laag wrote:
    Is the design boring? How could it be boring if we can talk about it for two weeks and nothing has changed? It's rather funny when you think about it.

    LOL. That is funny. You have to realize the time frame of all this, too. I've met with him I think 3 times, maybe 4 on Saturdays only. We spoke about subjects other than design, such as grading, irrigation, timing coordination of what gets done when and so on. I would characterize his style mostly like "trust me" (maybe you said that earlier in the thread). So I don't know anything about your percentages but I can say the following: he has established in my mind that he is an expert, he has established that he will produce a high quality product that will be done correctly, and he has established that he will be around for any problems/needs in the future. He has not established that his design is the one I will like best. I can't say why, but I also don't know what else he could have done (actually, showing me more similar work he has done would have been helpful).

    I should say that the landscape design was not an immediate priority. Getting the property graded was the priority, but now the design has gotten wrapped up in that. I have a lot of irons in the fire and will continue as such for most of the summer as we finish up issues with the house. Anyway we have left things that I would contact him for any further questions and whether/when we would like to proceed. He has been quite low pressure on this, as he has always said he'd give me his ideas to consider.

    peachymomo:

    Thank you for your perspective. I do have about 1/3 acre to landscape, much of which is in the back yard. I often go to public gardens in the state and see things that I like. Using some of those experiences I was sort of dreaming to have a rather large pond in the back with maybe a 16'x8' designer greenhouse near the pond. There would be lots of flowering "wildflowers" and so on. Now, money is an issue as lots of it would be needed, but as long as I have a good plan, things could be done in stages. I don't really know if the pond would work (I'd have to fence in the property somehow), but I could make my own back yard plan and bring it to this or another designer when I am ready and get better ideas.

    So, I'm not overly concerned about the front yard lacking color as long as it looks nice on its own or maybe with a little "garnish" here and there. I just don't want to pay good money for a boring landscape. :o)

  • isabella__MA
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "I enjoy discussing this stuff because I have time before I have to decide anything, and it is a really good way for me to learn, as long as you guys keep writing I'll keep listening and get a better idea of what I like."

    Yes Maulder the truth is out there! And, I think Eric-Oh needs to quote another song for us!

    Daniel when you make your choice, please post a pic of it and why it was chosen.

  • laag
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What is the grading issue out front?

    When you leave a client in doubt, you are either not an effective professional designer, or you just don't have chemistry with your client, or your client is a PITA (not likely, but always possible).

    "So I don't know anything about your percentages but I can say the following: he has established in my mind that he is an expert, he has established that he will produce a high quality product that will be done correctly, and he has established that he will be around for any problems/needs in the future. He has not established that his design is the one I will like best. I can't say why, but I also don't know what else he could have done (actually, showing me more similar work he has done would have been helpful).
    "

    ....that leaves what possibility?

    He has met with you four times without being hired?

    I'll retract my earlier recommendation. Don't call any other designers.

  • mjsee
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I see the yew being part of that and I didn't want a 1950 design on a new house. But then I looked at all the new designs down the street and got an equal dose of boring repetition there, too. :)

    Dear goddess. Yews were part of 1950 design. They were also part of 1850 design. It's not the material, it's how it's USED. Yews are tough, slow-growing, dense, dark...and nigh on deer-proof. I get having a personal prejudice against a particular plant (I'm not fond of gladiolas, for instance) but I'd never think to say they were "too 60's".


    yeesh.

  • marcinde
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I wouldn't necessarily discount simple. We were just at a winery last weekend that was designed by a pretty impressive landscape architect. The palette was dead simple- bearberry, yucca (!), and kousa dogwoods in the open areas, sweetbay magnolias and rhododendrons closer to the building. Simple palette, monochromatic, but the use of texture and the movement and flow of the space was downright brilliant. I developed an immediate man-crush on the LA and I've never met him.

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    laag said:
    He has met with you four times without being hired?

    I'll retract my earlier recommendation. Don't call any other designers.

    Laag- I appreciate your comments in this thread. You've been a good devil's advocate. However, your hostility is misplaced in this case. You should know by now that forum communication can be misleading. It isn't possible for me to recap every possible aspect of this process with the designer. I've already described how these meetings started. I'll humor you and give you an example of why we had another meeting. He gave me a price from his landscaper to grade and put down rye grass everywhere. I asked about if we could sod just the front yard, what would that do to the price? He took a note and we talked about putting sprinklers in the front only instead of the whole property as he had estimated. To me, a phone call saying the new price would have been just fine. But, he wanted to come back the following Saturday. That is a day when I'm out of work early, and he has time. His daughter also lives around the corner with the grandkids, so maybe that's part of it.

    I come here to quibble about minutae so I can learn from people like you. That doesn't mean I am a high maintenance customer. I'm also a business owner and I interact with about 150 customers not to mention my employees every day. Believe me, I know high maintenance customers and I ain't one.

    The other conclusion you are jumping to is that I am wasting his time. I've pretty much decided to use him for the grading and sod since I believe he will supervise things meticulously and it will get done correctly. I have not decided on his final design, however. He'll probably make as much money off of me with the other work being done as the design, so you don't have to worry about him too much.

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    mjsee:

    Around here a lot of houses are from the 50's to 70's, and they basically all have yews. I didn't mean to imply that Man unearthed the yew in 1950. I'm just saying it comes off looking like a plant you put in when you just want "something" in front of the house because you have to have something.

    I realize this isn't being fair to the yew. If I saw them used properly around stately mansions then maybe I'd appreciate how they could be used. You have to forgive my view on some of these things as I'm learning as I go along.

    marcinde:

    Sounds interesting. You don't have any photos, do you?

  • rhodium
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    So now the question is how to design around plant stereotypes and/or prejuidices?

    That simply, once again, comes down to what is your style - do you know?

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    rhodium:

    If I feel like the whole design works then I'd go with it. I know my wife does not like certain shrubs, so if we go ahead with the project we might suggest some comparable plants and see if they will work.

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I spoke to the designer today about the size of the gold coast junpers, voicing concern that the ones at the nursery he sent us to showed 2-3' high by 4-5' wide. He reiterated that he was not putting that variety in. He said that the one I saw is the one most people use when they speak of "gold coast" juniper. The ones he wants are lower growing and won't impede the driveway. He said the key was for him to match the juniper to the color of the house. He said the common names of the plants are often used loosely.

  • karinl
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The decision-making process can be either assisted or handicapped by an internet forum, and sometimes both - and I sense a bit of a problem here, Daniel. It is almost as if you are trying to sell the designer to us, or trying to get the forum as a whole to endorse your interest in him. We can only round out the information you use to make your decision; we can't make it for you! And even if we could, we rarely all say the same thing.

    Alternatively, you are maybe hoping that someone will propose an alternative design for your site that you can compare with what he has proposed.

    Knowing the forum fairly well I can tell you that's probably not gonna happen, and it shouldn't, and wouldn't be comparable if it did. If you need something to compare with this guy's offer, then get it from another local designer. But on the whole, I second Laag in saying that it isn't fair to call another designer, but in my case mainly because I think you are committed to this guy (I appreciate your assurance that you aren't the determinant of how much time's been spent, and he's old enough to know how he wants to spend his time).

    I do stand by my previous advice, which is that I think you have little to lose by letting the guy do his thing, even if the plant cost is higher than I estimated. The junipers won't be expensive, and the boxwoods may well be placed in a spot that will work whether you end up changing, culling, or augmenting the junipers or not. It's good he's not going to remove your mature plant material, it's good you'll get a layout that works for your house. You can go from there if you find it boring. That's the good thing about boring - you can always ramp up the variety or dress it up (maybe you will have the landscape equivalent of the little black dress). Plants are really only temporary installations anyway, as they grow and sometimes fail, and they can be replaced (even if they cost a lot - the plant often doesn't know it's expensive and fails to behave accordingly).

    KarinL

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    karinl said:
    and I sense a bit of a problem here, Daniel. It is almost as if you are trying to sell the designer to us, or trying to get the forum as a whole to endorse your interest in him.
    I don't really see any problem. I think what happens is that I post a couple of paragraphs and ask for opinions. Then people post back and naturally have to do some speculation since they only have a paragraph or so to go on about the designer. You get the impression that I am defending him because I am responding where the speculation seems off the mark, or factually wrong. For instance, if someone says it appears he may be doing a simple design because he is lacks knowledge and is intimidated, I reply that that comment is off the mark, clearly. That looks like a defense but it really isn't.
    Alternatively, you are maybe hoping that someone will propose an alternative design for your site that you can compare with what he has proposed
    I hope I didn't give that impression. Is it even possible to do a proper design without being at the property? On the other hand, if someone says this is too simple then I might ask what elements should be pumped up and how.

    FWIW, the whole thing about me taking up all this designer's time is a red herring. It isn't an issue, trust me. I understand many of you folks are designers so I understand your point of view. Let me give you a story the other way: I needed the property to be graded and seeded. I had a landscaper who did some tree work for a neighbor come by and look things over. I waited a week for the appointment, and then they called the day before and rescheduled for another week out because it was raining. OK, fine. It's a busy time of year. The guy shows up and we walk the property and talk for maybe 45 minutes. He gives me a verbal estimate for two options and says he'll have time over the weekend to give a written estimate, which he'll drop off at my business on Monday. Great! So a week goes by and nothing. I figure I'm not going to call just to see what happens. Two and three weeks go by with no call. I bump into a guy wearing their company tee shirt and it is his brother. I mention the situation and he apologizes, laughs and says he'll get his brother to call me. Meanwhile I've moved on to the designer we've been discussing here. The guy never did call. We're not talking nickel and dime prices, either. So he wasted a month of my time. If I was in a hurry to get grass down before the warm weather, I'd have been in trouble. I call that a complete disrespect of the customer. What's gone on between this designer and me is nothing of the sort.

    I think your comments about being able to ramp the design up later makes good sense, and that whatever I end up with won't be the end of the world if it isn't quite what we envisioned. I don't want to spend thousands on an elaborate design at this point anyway. So I appreciate that perspective.

    I think what I really wanted to find out by posting here was whether this designer was doing things right, or if there was some glaring problem with his approach. I thought someone might say something like, "Oh, yes, I see what he is proposing for you. That kind of design was big in the 70's and went out with disco. Here's why it is an outdated design, and here's why you might want to do this and that instead."

    What I've seen some 90 posts later is that his approach is not off base. Some here like the design, others don't. Some like the "plan everything up front" and others find no problem with manicuring what you have first, and working those parts of the yard into your design as you go along.

    I think I've gotten all I can reasonably expect out of this thread, and I thank everyone who participated.

    I might add that I've been posting in newsgroups and forums since about 1995 and probably have more experience with this form of communication than most. Every forum has its cast of characters, or I should say every forum has the "same" cast of characters, interestingly. Long discussion threads tend to stray, and the thread evolves into something it wasn't intended to be. So let's cap it off here, if you don't mind.

    I'll post pics when the job is done and we'll see who I ended up using! It probably won't happen until late in the summer, however.

    Thanks for all the advice, it really helped me sort things out!

  • backyardgrown
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm curious to see the finished product, and I'm unearthing an old post to ask for finished pictures...if the project is indeed finished.

    I will add that an interesting landscape contains a variety of textures, shapes, colors and seasonal interest. Your house is nice, but it is pretty basic. It's light green, light brown and really needs some oomph and curb appeal. I just don't think 16 homogenous junipers will give you that. Sixteen of anything mass planted in a front yard is just blah. Have you ever tried to weed around/between a huge mass planting of junipers? It's not easy to do.

    I don't like monocultured landscapes for several reasons, not the least of which is disease/pest issues. If you plant an entire yard full of one thing and one gets a disease or pest that wipes it out, what happens when they all die, you have to rip them out, and then you're back to square one?

    What I do like about your neighbor's landscaping is the variety of texture and colors he's incorporated. For it just to be shrubs and a few ornamental grasses and perennials, it's not bad. I'm partial to wild cottage type gardens, so even his "busy" lanscape is a bit too boring for me.

    What he does have is a nice sweep of varying texture up to the front door and a perennial garden next to the house. Even though he's using ubiquitous plant material that seems to be really popular right now (I'm so sick of seeing Russian Sage and KO Roses together), it could be worse. At least there isn't an entire row of mondo grass lined up with Stella d'Oro lilies behind it. It looks like a typical landscape installed by a grass mower turned landscaper. The material he used is familiar and fairly inexpensive, as well as easy to procure because it's popular. Even with the varying textures and half-hearted attempt at a perennial bed, it's still rather uninteresting (to me).

    I digress. I seriously hope you didn't go with the mass planted junipers. I think that will be a regrettable decision in a few years.

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi. Thanks for your interest. Unfortunately, I still haven't done anything with the landscaping, and it's too late in the season to do the job now. I would have done it by now if I could, but other projects requiring $$ took precedence. I'm sure we'll be getting it done in the spring. The nice thing about the internet is that the spring will just look like one more post below this one!

    I think what I've learned is that there isn't a right or wrong when it comes to a "mono" landscape vs a varied "cottage type" one. Each seems to have it's pluses and minuses as well. I'm leaning toward doing the simpler design with sod and irrigation in the front, and leaving the back yard to more of a cottage type feel since I'd rather spend more time in the back than front.

    Regards!

  • Embothrium
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you make the front more private and appealing to yourself then you can make full use of that space also. The street and neighbors could be fenced out and hidden by tree and shrub plantings.

  • gwbr54
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Interesting (if very long) thread. What I 'hear' is Daniel's concern that his front yard pales in comparison to his neighbor's. The neighbor's house has bright white trim to set in apart from its green surroundings, whereas Daniel's green and brown house repeats the colors in his existing natural landscape. Maybe part of the solution lies in jazzing up the trim on the house, or maybe replacing asphalt driveway with attractive pavers. I don't have a grand vision for the plants in front yard, but I do see the need for a flowering small tree in the left front yard. I'll be interested to see more postings from Daniel when more work is done!

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    bboy: I think I'd have to do a lot of work to make the front more private. There is a 3 or 4 foot slope down from the house to the street, so I'd be working against that to create privacy. I'm not really concerned with privacy for the front space, though. If I want to sit outside in my speedos then there is plenty of private space in the back yard. :)

    gwbr54: My wife would kill me if I made the house trim white. We intentionally wanted a darker trim. She's from New England, so maybe that has something to do with it. My goal with this thread really was to educate myself on "rights and wrongs" with landscape design. I see a lot of expensive landscapes that I do not care for and was trying to figure out why they weren't appealing to me.

    Putting a specimen tree at the left part of the front yard was suggested by the designer. I really like magnolias, whch seem to grow OK in our area. But, that decision is down the road a bit.

    Thanks!

  • laag
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Speedos and a privacy fence would be a conflict of personality, I should think.

    If you are not groping for usable outdoor space, the landscape on the street side of the house would best serve to enhance the presentation of the house. You can do that by keeping it really simple, as it sounds like you want to do. Simplicity in itself does not equal enhancement, nor does dressing it out. Anything that is done will affect it, either supporting it or conflicting with it.

    It is easier to control effects using simple concepts, but they still need to be the right effects to support what you are trying to do.

    The more design principles that are introduced, the more tools there are to influence the effects whether they are introduced intentionally or not. When they are introduced, there are lots of dynamics that are in play that can over power other parts of the design. In other words, a general layout that works very well can be totally unrecognizable if the introduction of certain colors or form, or what have you over powers it.

    Sometimes we have people who will read a book about using one design element such as color as the key to successful design. They follow all the rules about color (or whatever the book keyed on)that they learned in the book and then are confused why the project failed. Typically, it is because they only pay attention to working with the color and have neither a recognition or understanding of all the other things influencing their landscape. They fail to realize that in order to rely on one element, you have to minimize the influence of all the others.

    In other words, the landscape is dynamic whether or not you want it to be. In order to make it simple, you still have to be aware of everything that is going on in and around it to insure that they are also simple enough to let you get away with it. Ignorance is not bliss unless it is done in total isolation (with or without speedos).

    Your existing landscape allows for this much more than most. It will accept a landscape that is uses minimal tools. Keep in mind that all plants have form, mass, color, texture, size, density, and line to them. Paying attention to only one or two of these things is not the same as the other being absent. Keeping the others relatively the same allows you to successfully use only one as your design tool simply because the others will be out performed (over powered). Conversely, you can have a great color plan that is completely overcome by conflicting form, for example.

  • pippi21
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Before you spend all this money on landscape design, I might add that yours and the house next door would look a lot better if you added wooden shutters on each side of the windows. It would really dress up yours and the house next door. It's like a woman not wearing a jewelry with that plain black dress. Just my observation! Maybe shutters are a thing of the past but it sure can dress up a house's exterior. Now days, most shutters come into plastic/vinyl.

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    laag: Very interesting. I hadn't realized all those things, but hopefully the designer has! Maybe you're explaining why I see a lot of expensive landscapes but don't care much for them. I'll definitely keep that in mind.

    pippi: The wife isn't much for shutters. Maybe it's just what you grow up with and are used to. I don't miss them myself, but thanks for the comment!

  • kimcoco
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    First, I have to say from the first post, the designer gave you really good advice in the concepts you mentioned. I've watched my neighbors once professional landscaped property (previous owner) turned into a mix mox of cottagy plants in the front with trellises, water fountain, other garden junk, and it looks like a total mess and amateur (new owner). Each year she adds more, and each year it looks worse. So, I say this because everything my neighbor has done thus far goes against those concepts.

    Don't equate "simple" with "boring". My biggest concern would be that it doesn't look cookie cutter, but I'm biased because when we purchased our home it seemed that everyone on the street had the same foundation plantings with the same variegated hostas. That's what I call boring.

    I'm also surprised that a lot of people seem to be throwing this designer under the bus, stating that he wants to do what HE wants. I don't get that at all. I'd be leary of any designer who was easily swayed to do what I want him to do especially if I were an absolute amateur. He knows what he's talking about.

    What I found was helpful for me was to view other properties that I liked and ones I didn't like - and soon enough you'll be able to decipher your likes and dislikes, or perhaps your designer will.

    I didn't read every detail of this very long thread, but I'm interested to hear your final decision?

  • botann
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have yet to see a successful row of mature, spreading, Junipers next to a driveway that hasn't been cut back to dead wood. Design wise, I don't think that shape of Juniper looks good in a straight row. A drift of them anchored by a specimen conifer would look nicer for starters.

    Mike

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    So it's been about 3 years or so and we finally did something about the landscaping. Yeah!! Just to recap the situation:

    We knocked down most of our split level house and rebuilt with an additional level. The back of the house was extended back, but the dirt was never properly leveled. Stones and junk were scattered throughout the property and I needed to both regrade the property for drainage and add new landscaping for aesthetics.

    I came to this forum for advice because most of the landscaping I saw seemed kind of boring or not well maintained. I wanted to know if I was missing something and whether the designer I had been meeting with knew his stuff, or might be too old fashioned.

    Looking back on things I can make a few conclusions:

    1. I didn't like a lot of landscaping designs I saw around the neighborhood because they generally weren't well maintained. An impeccable landscape is much more appealing than one with overgrown or poorly growing plants and shrubs. I did see some expensive neighborhoods that I didn't like because the builder used the same plants on every property -- it just got boring to look at.

    2. I think the concept that front yard design should complement the house and not be something in and of itself makes sense. The backyard can be used for things like a nice pond, greenhouse or whatever.

    3. I satisfied myself that my designer did know his stuff and that whatever he recommended would probably be appropriate for our house.

    We had the job done in late September, just a little over 2 months ago. We had everything graded properly and then sodded the front (with underground sprinklers) and seeded the back.

    So for those who are still interested, here's what we ended up with:

    First, here's the original before landscaping.

    {{gwi:27926}}

    Front of house. We removed a large oak directly behind the house that was just too close for comfort. Also, a large Hickory to the back right came down and nearly destroyed the house. I was in the bedroom when it crashed down and barely missed the house.

    It was late in the day so sorry for the shadows. Much to the advise of several here, we did end up with a row of junipers along the driveway. The original design had more of an arc along the driveway, which I talked to the designer about. He agreed that we should consider making more of a curvature in the sod at the street, adding a couple more junipers and leading up to the house in a more sweeping way.

    {{gwi:27927}}

    We had a walkway put in first. I like how everything came out.

    Here's the "before" walkway:

    {{gwi:27928}}

    And after:

    {{gwi:27929}}

    {{gwi:27930}}

    The designer originally had 6 boxwoods going in but realized that wasn't going to work. He ended up putting in 14 instead (no additional charge). The holly was supposed to be further away from the boxwood but he had issues with underground piping. He put the holly in the ground because the weather was starting to deteriorate and so the plan is to relocate it in the spring. He was supposed to put in 35 variegated liriope but couldn't get good ones. Those will go in around the holly in the spring. He recommends keeping the boxwood the exact same size and keeping them round. We might also add some mono colored annuals in front of the boxwood and possibly also as hanging baskets on the porch.

    {{gwi:27931}}

    The weeping hemlock and atlas cedar stand out much better now with a manicured lawn. The hemlock was cleaned out of it's dead underbrush and it's really a nice specimen. It is a little close to the street, but with the underbrush gone, there is no problem seeing traffic.

    {{gwi:27932}}

    The hemlock has been neglected and will get an oil spray in the spring as well as fertilizer. This concept of not removing older bushes prematurely is interesting. Since we redid the property I have had a number of people tell me how beautiful that tree is. Before the cleanup, not a word.

    {{gwi:27933}}

    I have really enjoyed learning about lawn care since it always seemed to be a subject with such conflicting opinions.

    Unfortunately one side of the atlas cedar had been crowded out many years ago by an overgrown hemlock, but it is still a nice specimen.

    {{gwi:27934}}

    {{gwi:27935}}

    Here's another example of not getting rid of existing foliage too quickly. This is the back/side of the yard and it looks nice manicured.

    {{gwi:27936}}

    The backyard is now a template for us to do something with down the road. We added 6 Norway spruces and 3 blue spruce. The blues seem to have been damaged by rope or whatever, and we may have new ones put in depending on what they see in the spring.

    {{gwi:27937}}

    The border trees will be pruned as needed to make sure the spruces have enough sunlight/room to grow.

    {{gwi:27938}}

    Interestingly to me, the large tree in the neighbor's yard behind the blue spruces is also a Norway spruce. I guess they get that "weepy" look after they have a chance to grow out a bit.

    {{gwi:27939}}

    This is a 180 degree panoramic view of the back yard. I have thoughts of putting in a large pond toward the right side. We'll see...

    {{gwi:27940}}

    We designed the kitchen to have a nice view of the back yard.
    (photo taken before landscaping was done).

    {{gwi:27941}}

    So that about covers it! I'm generally happy with what we ended up with. My designer turned out to be a good guy, and very fair. He is a bit absent minded on a few issues, but he keeps the important things on the front burner. Only time will tell how we might tweak things, and whether we will regret junipers in the front. I've been assured they won't be a problem over and over, so I went with it.

    Thanks for everybody's input -- it really helped me sort things out! I also hope that by documenting things in some detail that this thread might help other people in similar situations.

    Regards,
    Dan

  • emmarene9
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow. Thank you for coming back and sharing. Looks good.

  • PRO
    Yardvaark
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I missed this thread as it began before my coming here, but it's been interesting to peruse it. (I've not read the entire exchange, but mostly the beginning and end posts.) One important recurring point that you make, Dan, is the importance of good landscape maintenance. A mediocre landscape can look pretty good if it's well maintained. A good landscape can't look anything but nasty if it becomes rangey & unkempt.

    I think it's far better to focus on the basics and get them well organized. Tweaking for extra pizazz is pretty easy to add later as many of those things can be worked alongside or in front of basic plantings. And it usually doesn't take much, if the basic plantings are correct.

    IMO (FWIW) the next-door neighbor's plantings seem "busy" & contrived. Since foliage and bloom are usually acceptable to anyone, it seems OK now. But I think it will need plenty of reorganization as it grows. To some people, that's the way it should be ... never ending reorganization. To my thinking, that's more like gardening instead of landscaping.

    Sorry to say, the thing I'm "choking" on in your new landscape is the strip of juniper along the drive. To return to the point about maintenance, I think it will look OK and bother no one if it is well maintained. While it would be too much for me, the good thing is that it wouldn't be difficult to change any time later (if you decide you don't like it.) The other things, I think, are an improvement over the "before" picture. The good grass really makes a difference.

    I like that you provided the follow-up pictures. Many forget or don't think to do it!

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for the comments. I don't suppose many of the people here 3 years ago are still active. What's a good alternative to the row of junipers? I can't imagine they will be a problem for a number of years, but we'll see. My designer said they won't grow very fast and he can keep them more compact. I guess we'll find out eventually. Like you and others have said, it's not a great expense if I have to pull them out and do something else. The real money was in regrading, irrigating and sodding.

  • PRO
    Yardvaark
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I meant to mention earlier what a handsome kitchen that is ... extra nice!

    The front yard (lawn and drive) is a visual and physical path leading to the entire house. It's mostly a large "carpeted" and hard surface "floor." The hard surfacing of the drive and walk is necessary because turf would not be durable enough to hold up to ongoing vehicular and pedestrian traffic. If you had a hovercraft instead of a car and could float instead of walk, turf alone would work fine as the multi-purpose path and "plaza" area ... ready to receive all traffic ... as a collecting and gathering place before entering the house ... and as visual "white space" helping to emphasize the details and architectural features of the house.

    The large front yard "floor" is similar in function to the floor surfaces inside the house. As with the outside, there is much of the interior floor that is rarely walked on ... inside corners, places close to walls, etc. Instead, most of a person's walking occurs in well travelled paths that link to doorways, halls and commonly used furniture. Inside, it would absolutely never occur to anyone that it is a good idea to separate the well traveled paths from those less used with some type of raised, linear barrier. Imagine ... a confined pathway to the sofa or to the refrigerator! Even if we don't commonly use some areas of the floor, we want there to be immediate access if we ever decide we want to use them. For some odd reason, outdoors, it has evolved into a common (but not desirable!) practice to separate the well traveled paths from the less well traveled paths by raised linear barriers ... usually hedges of some type ... as if to tell everyone, "Walk here ... NEVER, EVER there!" (Even if the hedge is low -- 12" ht. -- it's still a barrier of some magnitude.) Even if it's comprised of disconnected segments (as the juniper will be) it still discourages passage when at some point a person wishes to have it. The juniper, as it grows in height, will eventually become a raised linear barrier that separates the well travelled path from the less well traveled path. I suggest that it would be better to let the lawn come all the way to the drive edge. This does not mean that there can never be a "momentary" barrier -- such as a landscape "island" that separates two path areas. It's the corral-like linear barriers that confine the well traveled path for its length that are so objectionable. The taller they are, the worse they are.

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Interesting concept. Even so, I think I prefer to have something as a border rather than just grass, like we have on the right side of the driveway. At the top of the junipers there is about a 6 foot gap that provides access to the lawn. Also, the lawn elevation drops off a little more on the left side of the driveway so if I had grass instead of a planting bed it is just a little harder to mow.

    The designer's idea was to draw the eye up to the house with a sweep of junipers that had light green tips to kind of complement the house. I don't think it sweeps up as much as it could and maybe we'll change something in the spring. That was the idea behind it, though.

  • PRO
    Yardvaark
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm not really criticizing what you have now. The junipers, presently, are so low that they read as a continuation of lawn. If one has a low, wide contrasting planting that borders the lawn, it is a decorative edge, not a barrier. If it changes in the future, it could be judged then.

    " ...the lawn elevation drops off a little more on the left side of the driveway ..." In the picture I can only see that there is curb lining the drive. The grade should be flush with the top of the curb. If it is not, then I would consider it a flaw. But how significant? If it's not bothering anyone else, it's minor. If by "drops off" you mean something different, I'm not sure what.

    As far as "The designers idea ..." I think "draw the eye" really means to emphasize an already existing line of convergence (the edge of drive adjacent to the lawn) that aims toward the vanishing point of the overall composition. I can't speak against emphasizing the line ... except if it is done by using a raised barrier. The curb emphasizes the line. If a decorative band/border were incorporated into the hardscape of the drive, that would also emphasize the line. Both would do it without incorporating barriers. There would be other ways to do it as well. I'm only against the extended barrier ... which you don't yet have.

  • jane__ny
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The yellow-tipped Junipers do get quite wide and tall. I had them along a walk way and had to keep them cut way back each Spring which removed the yellow tips. They are most attractive when they can spread. I would not recommend them for the spot you put them in.

    Jane

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jane - that seems to be the consensus on this forum. This spring I'll talk to my guy again. I'm actually more concerned about the junipers growing over the lawn side rather than the driveway side. They left extra space between the junipers and the driveway, but not that much on the lawn side.

    Thanks!

  • mikebotann
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The lawn side can change to accommodate the increase in spread of the junipers. Removing part of the lawn as needed is not too hard to do.
    Mike

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good point, Mike. However, I'd like not to lose too much lawn because of junipers. They could spread pretty extensively according to some here.

  • mikebotann
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Most people equate losing some lawn is like losing some property. Sounds silly, doesn't it? Since I'm a plant nut I feel otherwise. Also most people equate the more plants you have, the more maintenance you have. Not so, if you pick the right plants and put them in the right place. Then it's less maintenance than the lawn. Don't be afraid to lose some lawn to the junipers. Then you won't have to trim them to keep them in bounds.

    If you cut out the lawn to make beds it looks like just that, a cut out. The lawn shape should be designed first, because the shape of the lawn is more important, design wise, than the shape of the beds.
    Mike

  • woodyoak zone 5 southern Ont., Canada
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A big 'Ditto' to what Mike says re the shape of the lawn being more important than the shape of the beds. That's the most important lesson I learned during my 13 years of gardening in this place and the reading I've done in that time. One of the books Ink (who used to post here) reccommended first brought that to my attention. Now, looking at/assessing the 'negative space' is the first thing I do when looking at a garden picture and, in most cases, it's easy to see small changes that could greatly improve the look of the garden. But the importance of shaping the space that is not garden beds is almost never mentioned here - or in most design books for that matter!