From what I can see from here it looks fine.

Blue spruce seems to be too rigid for how you describe your home, hemlock would have been a better choice. The birch would soften the house lines and a red JM would bring out the house. Do you know what amelanchier is, they come in clumps as well. Potentilla frusticosa var. although deciduous would give you color all summer, I prefer K. Dykes, because it is cascading then mixing in some perennials, a link i have included to give you some ideas on sun/shade growth habits follows

Here is a link that might be useful: Propagating Perennials

First - am I missing the photo on my end?

Secondly - blue spruces can get fantastically tall, depending on the variety. Some can get up to 20m tall (about 70 ft). I would be concerned on them getting to large for the space, not about being too small.

Most birches I know only grow to able half or two-thirds that a spruce can grow. Although for different reasons, they may be more appropriate. Also consider branching patterns: spruces take up a large area at their base and unless you consider limbing them up considerably, they may encroach on the actual drive.

Again, I think you may be thinking in the wrong direction in terms of sizes with regards to the Japanese Maple.

A photo would be extremely helpful in gauging these disputed proportions/sizes.

- Audric

bonsai_audge, I was going to put a picture on here, but need to get my daughter's digital and take the picture. I haven't weeded the bed because I am being passive aggressive about it I guess, so I better get out there and weed it so you don't all those green things in there are plants. I will try to get it on the site tonight, but may not until Sunday as I have a family graduation on Saturday and will be out of town.

bullthistle, one of the problems with the bed when it was planted was that we thought it had too many things in it. It had sundrops in the bed also. For some reason, they did not come back the next spring and there are a lot of bare spaces now. How do you know when it is too much for the space? It seems like the designer didn't do a much simple stuff. I have found it so much easier to do a little bit and add as I go, so much easier to see the end result. I will post a pic and see what you think.

thanks for the link for the perennials and the suggestions. I plan on spending some time on that site to learn to care for my perennials.

Question about landscape designs. We had one done for our house and had some of the work done in the beginning. We have done some a lot of the planting ourselves and have learned as we went.Some of the stuff we put in last year and after seeing them come up this year, I am not loving the choices the designer made. My husband said something to me today that he doesn't love the cat mint near the front door because of all the bees and it has gotten too tall. When I picked the plants, I got the shorter variety (even though the taller was specified)because I thought it would look too shaggy. I also worried about the bees but hesitated to say anything because DH really wanted to stick to the plans from the Land Arch. How do you know what you will like and what you won't like. I find that I keep moving things around and hubby hates it. What do you all do when you make new beds, does it come with experience?

thanks for all your help. I live in an area where everyone has a yard service and landscapers do everything so I have no one to really ask these questions to.

Moving perennials around and exchanging trees are two very different activities. With perennials you wait a year or two at most, sometimes only a few weeks to see if you like it. Trees you might have to wait ten years.

Therefore when you make a new bed it's good to get the woody stuff right and then you can fidget around with perennials to your heart's content. They usually have to be dug up and renewed, divided etc every few years anyhow.

For the driveway island, my first thought too was about whether you are really visualizing the spruces as they will be for most of your likely tenure at this house, vs. how they now are. For tree selection you really have to either train your mind's eye, or use photoshop. Having just watched Star Trek, I would put it this way: the way the trees look today is irrelevant.

But having said that, there may be good reasons to use something other than spruce, including the fact that they tend to be wide at the bottom where they would occupy the same space you intend to drive cars through. However, if you are thinking of birches and Japanese maples, then it is not the size that is bothering you but something else. Maybe the colour? Maybe they are too dense? Whatever it is, figure out just what the problem is before you cut or dig, so that you do not end up replicating the error.

To reverse Laag's usual advice to stick in something to react to on a bare site, if you are absolutely sure you don't want the spruces then take them out even if you don't know what you want instead. It could be that the dislike you have for them is paralyzing your capacity to readily visualize replacements.

By the way, I don't think you need a picture all that badly. You've given an excellent description. And really, the substance of your question is not "what to do" but rather how you make decisions, if I understand correctly.

KarinL

I believe that it is up to you, as the clients, to speak up about any concerns or fears you may have during the actual design process. If you dislike contact with bees (which is completely understandable), you should say so. Then it is the designer's duty to make sure that they respond appropriately. Similarly, if you are unfamiliar with a great portion (or all!) of the plants, just state so.

Since you have the completed design in your hands and the designer has moved on from the job, I would suggest bringing in the plant list or the entire planting plan to a reputable nursery, where I'm sure that someone there can address any questions you have. If they're decent, they will not hesitate to give you an uninhibited run-down on a plant, including what may not be so good. If there's anything you find objectionable, they should also be able to think of a more agreeable substitute.

Or, you can look up the plants on the planting plan on the web. By typing in the botanical name (aka Latin name) in Google, you should be able to find several links, garden sites, images, all which should be able to give you a decent impression of the plant. Since I'm just a student, there are a lot of plants I'm not familiar with. When researching plants for a project, I often go through many, many, many searches. They don't take much time. But of course, nothing beats talking face-to-face with someone from your area who's familiar with the local growing conditions.

- Audric

"I believe that it is up to you, as the clients, to speak up about any concerns or fears you may have during the actual design process." - Audric

When doing residential landscape design, you'll find that most people are uncertain, or at least think they are uncertain, about likes, dislikes, and other concerns. You'll find that you can not expect them to be forthcoming with those things simply because the whole process is new to them. The fact that they have called in a designer is indicative of their uncertainty.

We, as designers, have to learn two things are more important than how we arrange plants and other things on a plan in my opinion. The first is how to draw out as much information from your client whether or not they know they have it in them. The second is to know why certain things have certain effects and to be able to articulate it to your client well enough for them to have a good idea of whether it is going to work out for them or not. (One big reason I participate on these forums to increase my ability to do the latter)

It is the designer's job to inventory and analyze the client just as he would the site in my opinion. That is not easy unless you you work at it. Then it becomes pretty easy over time.

Too many designers want to do their own thing and too many clients expect that a designer is supposed to know THE right way to landscape the property. Some think they just turn it over to you and you do your thing without them - they want to stay out of the way. You have to get them involved whether or not they know they are involved.

There are a zillion people wanting to design landscapes. Different people have a different job description that they follow.

___________________________________

I do have to say that driveway islands are not the easiest thing to design using trees. It is easy to design the circle, but the problem is that the circle is usually in the middle of the house. The tendency is to ignore the house and just work the inside of the circle as if it existed on its own. You have to look past the circle and see the whole house, or whole landscape. It may be that any trees in the circle are going to throw the overall proportions of the house out of whack.

I'm guessing that the OP is seeing that and is attracted to "the short bushy kind" of Japanese Maple for that reason. I'd hold off on the Birches in the circle. I'd be much more inclined to use them to frame the space around the circle than to fill the circle. Come to think of it, I just did that last fall.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:29894}}

Yowza, that's good Laag. A bingo on naming the problem, I suspect, and on solving it; that's a lovely installation.

KarinL

If you were wondering ...

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:29895}}

Hi, thanks to everyone who responded. I have posted some
pictures. (MY first time to post pics. Yay, I did it!)

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I sure need to do some weeding and weed killing, bed and driveway. The left side of the house doesn't have finished landscaping yet as there are a couple of red buds that need to be put in when our retaining wall is finished. I know that will bring help soften the house edges and also bring the height down a bit. A couple of trees died to the left of the driveway loop, so we are also thinking of moving the left loop over more. I know that there are a lot of things going on here that make this harder, but I am trying to work on things so we don't make more costly mistakes. (money wise and also hate to take out trees)

Thanks to everyone who takes a look. It really bugs me every time I pull in my driveway. Be back to address prior posts, going out to dinner for bday.

I agree that what's there doesn't look right. The frst thing that bugs me is that the spruce on the right seems to line up with the door in the middle section of the house while the spruce on the left lines up with a window - and somehow that just doesn't work for me... Also, as others have pointed out, those trees are going to get huge and I think spruce are only attractive when they are young so, if they bother you now, it's only going to get worse!

From a practical point of view, it strikes me that the shape of the circle is actually very trianglar and I'll bet the pointed ends on the right (in particular) and the left must get run over frequently. It looks like the shape needs to be rounded a fair bit more.

Also, from a maintenance perspective, it would be a heck of a lot easier to maintain if the grass strip was removed and the whole area planted/mulched. As it is now, you will have to edge that strip of grass in order to keep the grass out of the plantings and that seems like unecessary work for you or your landscape company. Plus I think it will just look better if it's all a bed and not a confusion between lawn and planting bed.

As for what to plant/place there instead of the spruces, I don't have specfic suggestions but I could see a mix of evergreen and deciduous shrubs, with reasonable size but in a mounding or arching shape so you don't end up finding your eyes trying to align pointed/conical shapes with vertical elements (eg. doors and widows) of the house.

I actually hate the spruce trees there as well. They are wrong. I think this is actually a good spot to work on and can be a lot of fun, but first you have to get rid of what is making you unhappy. There is nothing worse than driving up to your home and saying "ugh!"...driving up to you home should be "ah, I'm home!". (especially such a gorgeous home).

So, just bite the bullet and remove one of the spruces. See how it feels. If you still can't stand it, remove the other. Also, that crabapple is so itty bitty right now you can easily move to some place out back, I'm sure. Also, you can easily move those sedums right now too.

Then have fun. The heat of the summer will soon be on us, so make a clean slate of the bed and use the summer to dream, design, draw, and plan a bed that will welcome you home at the end of a long day. By fall you should have a good idea of how you want to proceed and it will be a good time to plant.

Have fun. (By the way, I think a rockin' japanese maple would be lovely there and would play off the stone of the house. Also, you might want to make the topography of the circle a little different...build up some mounds or add some great giant boulders.)

Very nice house.

Forget the spruce for a minute and look at the big picture.

I think there is an excellent opportunity to create more interest in the main body of the house (the center entrance colonial portion). It would be nice to feel drawn into the center of that portion of the house.

When I look at this as an arriving visitor, I am unsure where I am supposed to go. I see a front door to the left and a driveway that is telling me to go to the right and another door in the middle of the house.

I am guessing that the right side of the house is the most used informal side of the house that is for family, close friends, everyday parking and garaging.

I would want to de-emphasize the right side of the house and "present" the left side of the house. There should be no doubt in the mind of the person arriving that the front door is where to go.

It is probably not in the budget, but re-aligning the WHOLE driveway would be a very strong way to help that out. Short of that, making it the strong center of the view is what will get it done. Right now the middle door is the visual center and it has two spruces plunked in front of it. The problem is not that the spruce block the door. The problem is the spruce are blocking what everything else is telling your mind is the heart of the composition. The spruce could stay if you changed the context enough, although I'm not saying you should keep them.

The thing that I see as a problem is the tree in the foreground to the right of the driveway. It interupts the part of the house that I should be drawn to and re-centers the view to the middl of the house. I'd rather see that gone and a large tree in the center island and one or two on the right side of the driveway in the foreground. That would de-emphasize the right side of the house, interupt the center door, and center the heart of the house at the front door. Shrub plantings can enhance the effect.

That is just one approach to handling it. It is not THE way, just A way.

The house has no grounding issues and the foundation plantings are not detracting from the house at all. It is a very attractive house.

Laag, thanks for posting that beautiful photo of your circular drive. What a difference from the orig photo. I really like the edgeing that you used and the balance of colors. I also like that the bed is interesting from the house view. Hadn't even thought about that. We plan on doing the stone edging in the future (read- when we save up some money and with our three kids going to college soon, I don't think that will happen for a few years) I don't think the edging would be something that we could do on our own.

Audric, I do research the plants if I don't know what their growth habit is, but I just can't picture what the finished product can be when it is a bare slate. Do you know why some plants will say 12 inches tall and they get almost to 36 inches tall and it is only June! Do you think they were mislabeled. The nursery I got them made sure that I knew to get the shorter ones as the ones on our plan would grow too tall. Ugh, more plants to move.

One thing we really hate to do it so cut the trees down without thinking things through. It does bother me that the evergreens look so dwarfed compared to the house-- the grade doesn't help much with this issue. Would I be able to plant some kind of tree behind the evergreens and balance out the height issue? I have a feeling it might be too crowded but I am not sure? Maybe barefootinct is right, take one spruce out and see if I can find some balance with only one of the spruce's.

Hubby and I also are thinking of removing the large tree to the left of the driveway and making the curve less sharp (the tree has a lot of dead branches and doesn't look like it's doing too well.) Are there any sites with pictures of circular drives and landscaping? I think I may try to learn to photoshop and see if it helps give us a better picture.

Woodyoak,I think you pointed out something that my dh keeps mentioning, that we need to decided what we are doing the with driveway shape and then work on the bed from there. There are a lot of decisions to make.

laag, our driveway is not entirely paved because the left portion (front door area and area above loop) was a lot of fill dirt. We wanted the drive to settle before we spent the $$ to pave it. Looking at the whole mess, I am glad that it isn't paved. The paved area is on the right and ends up with another parking pad and into the garage. That wouldn't need to change. The area in front of the house is all loose gravel and can be adjusted. We have tried to work on it, but just can't get it to look or feel right. It isn't right, that is for sure. I agree with the door issue. It is a style of house that I love, but have had problems with people knowing what door to use and they actually will say it.

Are you saying to remove the mature tree (mostly bark showing) directly to left of the loop in the foreground? I got confused by your post. We have been thinking about taking the tree down and moving the curve. I never noticed how that tree frames the center door but it really is easy to see now that you point it out. It does feel like the middle is highlighted between the two trees. I thought it was because the color of the stucco and the porch bench. Wow, talk about a light bulb moment.

I say keep the the grass, rip out those shrubs and trees. Needs a nice fountain - but nothing gaudy. Maybe a simple urn shaped fountain - 4 feet tall. Perhaps laying down brick in a circle shape and spacing each one inch apart - letting the grass fill in the spaces. The only difficult part to this is running the wires for the fountain. You can run it under the driveway through PVC piping. I would hire someone for that.... Don't want a sink hole...

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Here is an example of
'the big picture". You can fill in the details.

Taking a second look. Now that things are a bit more in focus I can see that it's not so fine after all.

The problem for me is the confused look of going from an unpaved and ragged drive to a grass strip around the island to a planting area at grade. What's needed is some hard definition to the separate areas.

Pave the drive and use some form of hard edge such as a curb, a strong change in texture, a change in grade, or some of both. Loose the grass strip, it's neither a 'people place' nor a 'plant place' and only confuses the eye.

Foregoing plant consideration for the time being, I turn to hardscape. The stone on the house is beautiful and I feel compelled to extend its use to the island.

One layout might be as below. Here a paver walk extends the house entry through the island as an invitation and the gap will frame and lead the eye to the house.

{{gwi:30051}}

But as laag points out this emphasizes the wrong door. In the photo below I do a small bit of standing wall to the left of the drive and use pavers along an island wall directed toward a paver walk to the main house entry. The larger consolidated island is more in scale for larger plants that can loosely screen the other entry.

{{gwi:30053}}

I have left off putting in the plants so that others can suggest what might be appropriate.

I'm a big fan of the grass between a planting and pavement whenever there is enough room to make it big enough. Grass sets of a planting much more than pavement does in my opinion.

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{{gwi:8542}}

I think laag's 'big picture' mock up nails it - obscure the secondary door with a big tree, remove the tree on the left and add the one on the right, all of which rebalances where your eyes are directed. I'd still remove the spruces (but that's because I just don't like spruce...:-) and plant the circle with interesting shrubs that would grow under whatever the large tree will be.

I would still remove the grass both because it looks like it's too skimpy an area for it to set anything off as well as adding an unnecessary maintenance issue. (If you have a landscape service perhaps the maintenance doesn't matter although it might increase their cost a bit because it's more work.)

And I still think the area needs to be more rounded for ease of driving/to avoid running over the points of the bed on the left and right.

Try driving around and seeing what others have done with the approach to the house. This is a fairly common layout there, so there should be a fair number of examples. Among other things, it strikes me as an awful lot of hot pavement, which isn't particularly desirable. To repeat a laagism, why is the circle there? Either from a practical or a design perspective, what purpose does it serve?

(Now aren't cha happy you posted a picture, Bichonfriz?)

I am suprised no one has commented on this: because there are two blue spruce and not a third of this or any other evergreen, the eye bounces back and forth between the two..never at rest. It is visually disconcerting. Just assuming mature height and width weren't the issue, how would it look if a third taller one were placed between the current two? I think it would be a more harmonious composition.

Also, although the an addition of a large tree between the spruce in looks terrific (because it is appropriately proportioned for the house) the problem of the two "blues" would come back in the fall when the leaves dropped. As they say, just my 2 cents.

Three spruce might look better than two spruce, but that has little to do with the problem. The hardest thing for many people is that they fixate on details as either being the cause of a problem or the solution to problems. Sometimes the trees get in the way of the forest - that has a ring to it.

I would not keep the spruce, but by not changing them and just adding two trees, it give some people the opportunity to understand that the spruces are a detail in a poorly thought out "big picture". Only two trees are added and one is removed in the mock up, yet everything changed. If I took out the spruce, some people would think that it looks better because the trees are gone and fail to understand what really happened. Although that can still happen, I guess.

Adding a third spruce would not change the "big picture" much at all.

I disagree with the idea that the circular driveway has no purpose. It has three very important functions. It allows guests and invitees an opportunity to stay away from the private side or service side of the house. It provides parking close to the front door for larger gatherings (it is a big house). It has an aesthetic function to tie the front door to the rest of the world.

Think about the alternatives. You drive to the opposite end of the house and go through the garage, or hike back to the secondary door, or hail a cab to get to the front door. Or, you could have a stub driveway there that just plugs up the view. Or, you could have a long walk winding its way to a point halfway down the driveway. Or, you could go lawnless and plant bamboo or a cottage garden as so many seem to think is a good idea.

I'd want the circle or a variation of it, if it were my home.

This place does not have a lot of landscape issues that are not easily corrected.

I adjusted my mock up above, by slightly re-aligning the paved portion of the driveway. It is to make the continuation to the garage less dominant.

All I can say is Wow! I am so excited to see the changes and the mock-ups. I was dying to get on the computer yesterday but I didn't get a chance. Thank you so much pls8xx and laag, those pictures are so helpful and really make it easier. A picture is truly worth a thousand words!

pls8xx, the yard looks great, I think this is the best the house ever looked. Can't wait for hubby to see the pics. He was looking at the spruce's this morning and saying how well they were growing (they really are). I hope I can twist his arm to change things. I definitely like the look of the loop with the wall around it and the stone wall on the left. We were thinking of doing a stacked wall on the left of the drive.

Laag, what is the change you made from the original pic? Is the drive wider on the left side of the loop to encourage people to look there, and drive there? As for the circular drive, it will stay some circular shape as it is a good thing if it is wide enough for a car to park on the side and other cars to get by- which it is. We have triplets who have their friends drop by all the time and we need a lot of parking. We have other parking but they do so much better with the loop. you would be surprised how many people (even adults)can't really drive with their cars in reverse.

For some reason I like the grass border, I think it keeps things less formal looking. It does set the plantings off. While the front of my house is more formally landscaped, I don't want to make it more so. I also think that the grass border around the bed gives people some mistake room so they wouldn't hit the wall when driving. I love the look of the mortared wall, but I am not sure we can afford a something like that. Do you think we can achieve a similar look with a stacked stone wall, I think the mortared might look better? Would stacked stone even go with my style of house? I have looked around at driveways and most around here do not have circular drives as space is pricey and lots are usually small. A lot of drives have a curve but only so you can get in and out- there is no parking. I know we have to work on the circular shape and straighten out that sharp curve on the left of the loop. Do you think that a "circle" shape bed would be good or should we do a more free-form bed? (or is that a taste thing?)

We have planned to use Pennsylvania blue stone (slate looking) for the pathways and want to border the beds and driveway edge with those paver things. The blue stone is something was has been used with the old houses around here so we want to try and keep with the feel of that.

If only we could do it all right now! Does anyone do hardscaping? What parts have to be done first, can the jobs be staggered and done in stages? It would be so much more affordable to do it that way. Also, am I the only one who thinks the height of the house needs to be brought down and softened? Won't deciduous trees do that or am I totally off the mark? I have looked at a lot of landscaping and I have noticed that people have trees really close to their houses as foundation plantings. It looks really nice, but I thought that was a bad thing to do as the tree will have to replaced when it gets larger or it will need to be trimmed a lot.

misslucinda, I laughed when I read your post. I hate to redo things so I want to do it right, it is funny that I only saw the plantings in the bed and not the real problem. Now I have so many more variables.........I am SO glad that I posted this question. Could you imagine if I had redone the bed and still hated it. Hubby would have killed me. It bugs him when I move some perennials so you can only imagine.

pls8xx, are you using a regular photo shop program? It is amazing how helpful it is to see the changes instead of trying to picture them.

Howdy-hey bichon--

I love to laugh and I am pleased I gave you a giggle--thanks for the acknowledgment.

No Laag- wasn't saying OP should keep the spruce, merely that this was one thing which made her severely disgruntled every time she drove home. Anywho, I am in your fanclub.