i stopped by a garden center and i am glad i did. way more affordable. i have attached the pictures of the options of all of the different kinds they have below. all were 2 cu feet bags and 4 for 11$. except the last one which was organic native mulch which was 5 for 12.50$

please take a look and let me know how much i should get for 150 sq ft to be covered up maybe up to 3-5 inches.

Here is a link that might be useful: Options in soil

the corner visible in the photo below is just mulch. can i put the compost system there for now and change the location later or should it not be moved once it is started?

Here is a link that might be useful: Corner for compost

So how deep is the planting material of the bed to be? Just trying to get a handle on the ratio of topsoil to the "amendments."

I see play sand in one of your shots. You don't want to even think about mixing this with clay. Also, some of the mulch seems intended for cosmetic use on top of the soil. I don't know about cedar mulch as an amendment.

You might check the website of a company called Living Earth. They have several locations in Houston.

Hmmm . . I see that, in my previous post, I neglected to mention the "limestone" phase of Texas clay formation.

the sand is for the border under the pave stones. the main purpose of the sand will be to level the pave stones.

there is already around 2 inches of depth in the loose top soil. i was thinking another 3-5 inches on top of that? is that sufficient for vegetables(other than like carrots) and flowers? to be more specific-should i go with 3, 4 or 5 inches of soil on top?

i will check out living earth as well.

and oh yes, i am done with getting the grass out. i was working on my own and expected to finish tomorrow. but my neighbor jumped in and it got done today. i will post the photos in a bit.

i still need recommendations of what kind of mixture should i use for the bed. after you see the photos.

here is the area with the grass removed.

see all the uprooted grass put to the corner. is that good enough for composting? will it decrease in size as it decays?

what mixture of soil do you think I need in the bed from what you see in these photos?

Here is a link that might be useful: Grass removed!!

So much for the easy part.

Once the pavers are positioned, what will be the distance between them and the fence? If they're to go down over the area you've now cleared of grass, that's going to make for a rather narrow bed. An Early Girl tomato is going to need a good 3 ft. of elbow room, and you don't want a lot of foliage pressing against the fence, causing it to deteriorate prematurely. The more attractive hardy perennials, such as plumbago, will require even more room (not to speak of shrubs.) I realize you're against a tight deadline, but you have plenty of room to work with and, once the pavers are in place, widening the bed is going to be a real hassle.

So you have two inches of loose topsoil? What are you finding below that two inches? Any small rock? You don't want that stuff in your bed. Now, how deep do you want to be able to plant something without reaching for the grubbing hoe? I would want a minimum of 10 inches of easily worked soil. Bear in mind that, the deeper the roots can penetrate, the less water they will require, and deepening the bed at a later date will be difficult, because of all the material you will have to displace.

Scorpio, why don't you call a couple of local landscape installation companies and ask them what they amend soil with when they install annuals? That might put it in perspective for you. Of the choices you offer in your photo I see something--ranging from pointless to money-wasting or extra work--for each one.

Your bed looks a little narrow. Plants take room.

I'd run a string line and uniformly straighten the out the bed edge for a better appearance. I think you'd be better off to finish the soil prep and then install pavers afterward on solid, undisturbed soil (which means remove another strip of sod later to accommodate the paver width.

There is no point to create a paver edge on the back side of the garden. Do only the front edge.

If you leave the sod pile up against the fence, the fence will become part of your composted product in the end. Keep in mind that when the grass decomposes out of the sod pile, you're mainly going to end up with dirt (until you add a lot more organic matter which will take some time.) It's going to be a heavy, compacted pile after it sits a while so don't leave it somewhere temporary too long or it's going to be a pain to relocate. I'd create a pile that has at least one side open and access to it no narrower than 5'. Nothing wrong with having it entirely open if you have room.

OK, so I have zero knowledge about soil amendments (where I live you just stick plants in the ground and they grow). But it seems ordained that Yardvaark and I have different views. So I have to say that I like the curve on your bed, and I think doing a paver edging along the back might not be too bad an idea.

It seems that your fence boards go all the way to the ground. This is not so good for fenceboard longevity if you are adding a few inches of WHATEVER to the bed - soil against the fence is the same as compost. Pavers will tend to hold moisture at the fence base, but that is better than dirt. I don't know how wide a paver you're using, but the other benefit of pavers is they will stop you from planting too close to the fence. Plants will tend to lean out in this bed, seeking the light, and it won't help to plant right at the fence - quite the opposite in fact. And in assessing the width of the bed, remember plants can use the airspace above the grass as well as above the bed.

You should definitely head over to the soils forum with questions about composting and amendments, but one thing I will say is that how you compost depends on what kind of stuff you are composting. If it is straight yard waste - your grass, leaves, and other plant bits - then an open pile is fine. And you can certainly move it when half composted, though it's more efficient to leave the first pile in peace (maybe covered with something) and just start a new one. But if you plan to add kitchen scraps, it's probably better to get a closed system. I use a green cone (without the underground basket), but there are lots of others ranging from very simple to fancy.

Also, how nice to have a neighbour who will pitch in. I hope your wife is gratifyingly surprised!

Karin L

its thunder and lightning here
will rain affect my work in any way?

Scorpio--You must not work the soil when it is waterlogged. It will become compacted.

Amend like crazy now. I don't care whether you put in peat, but if you do, you'll need 4" or so. You could work in 2" of compost into the top 2-3" and let the microbes do the rest as long as you double pinky swear that you will put 2" of compost on to of the bed for the next 3 years and 1" on top every year after.

Here's another vote against the curve. But I would protect the fence. (What am I doing here, splitting the difference between Yardvaark and Karin?) It's too small of a gesture to look deliberate. It looks like a burp or a squiggle. Grand moves, broad gestures! Also, the best MUST be at least 50% deeper--better, twice as deep--unless you just want to put in a solid bed of irises or something of that sort.

If you're going to make one, make your compost pile near your trash cans or A/C compressor. Your yard's so small, though, that I'd probably not sacrifice any space to that and would just buy it.

The reason I made the comment about the bed line was that it does not at all look like an intentional curve. It just looks like careless work. If you want to have a curve it should look purposeful and intentional. Also, the bed being a connecting element to the fences should be shaped in a way of strength, not weakness. In the example below, the the orange curve is good. The red line is less so.

{{gwi:31796}}

The orange line also lends itself more to gracefully extending the bed in the future (as I believe you indicated you intend.)

Looks like we may be in for a rainy week. You don't have to worry about compacting your existing soil.

i made the curve that way so that it is easy for me to mow the corner (at least a little bit easier) as i use a manual mower. not a fan of the emmissions of a gas powered mower and not excited about the limited usability of an electric one.the curves are so that i can get the mower through with lesser effort than it would be if it was like in the orange curve.

i will probably throw all the uprooted grass out. it does look quite bad with all of it there. i will dig up the trench around the bed for the border today. borders and soil tomorrow.

That doesn't look like a good location to start a compost pile. You need easy access to turn it occasionally. What is all of that in that corner anyway? Did you look at the link I provided on compost systems?

checked out living earth. locations are too far off.

i will need around 40 cu feet of soil altogether for the whole area for 3"
will 12 bags(2 cu ft per bag) of top soil and 8 bags(2 cu ft per bag) of peat be a good combination?

attached the link to the soils below again

Here is a link that might be useful: soils

oh i missed that link
just saw it. yeah i will have to make one of those.
throwing out the grass i have now.

those are the telecommunications and power boxes.

darn rain! didn't rain all day and rained just as i got home!
all i could do is clean up the remaining roots. i hope it doesn't rain tomorrow and i can finish the rest of the work.

one thing has come up though. i had a neighbor come and take a look. he was saying that in the past there were oil wells nearby. is that something to be concerned about? is it risky to allow the plants to go into the soil? do i have to put more soil than i had planned?

on the fence what kind of border should i put that can hold the soil away from the fence.

at one spot i noticed fire ants on the other side of the fence. should i use ortho to kill em? or will that affect the fertility of the soil that i will be putting in?

Scorpio, I have a sense you are looking for "right" answers for a lot of things. For many things in gardening there simply aren't any, and in fact, many things of which people sound certain are not cast in stone either. For example, I've never turned a compost pile in my life, and mine is way too high in kitchen scraps and not enough green/brown stuff, but you know what: it all rots down with time no matter what you do and whether you turn it or not.

The same is true of soil amending, edging, and every other decision you are facing. I suspect that just new soil or almost any selection of the amendments you showed will get you through this season, and you can spend all next winter researching :-). I'm not sure I would call a landscaper, as that's not what they're in business to do, but there must be local books, magazines, newspaper garden writers? And of course local nurseries. And isn't there a Texas gardening forum here on Gardenweb?

One of the great things in the garden (and the most frustrating thing too) is that nothing is permanent. Well, except maybe poured concrete, and even that... But you always get a do-over in the garden. So just pick whatever solution works for you today, and fix it later if it doesn't hold up. If you put soil against the fence, it won't rot it this week, or even this season. Fix it before 5 years, and you'll be fine.

For what it's worth, I would not have thrown out your grass; it would have been put grass-side down in the corner and left for the season. You do have to get used to the fact that not everything in the garden looks good all the time :-)

Karin L

Scorpio. I figure I am going to do you a favor, that earths finest is some decent stuff if using a little for a small bed etc. but for a vegtable garden I would really consider getting large cube of peat moss for 10$ and calling a horse stable/looking around for some manure, know that fresh manure will take some time to break down and will smell awful, but it should break down by August when it will be time to plant again for the fall and would really pay off in the long run, don't rush the groundwork, its easily the most important part "in my opinion" for a vegetable garden. Personally I love irrigation direct if you need a drip or misting system and cheap lowes 15$ timmers.

I know you were anti raised beds, though if it were me I would dry stack/cinder block it with two layers. I figure that would be roughly 16" high. You could use compost in the holes and grow things like followers, herbs, and onion "neighbor is doing that and it looks really good". You could also seal it, paint it, stucco, brick etc. Lot of good options. I guess you'd need around 40 but thats just a guess. I think they are 16x6x8 on average LxWxH and roughly 1.50. They would also help keep out the grass and protect the fence/give you an area to walk on by the fence/though I would go vertical with rebar "in the cincerblock holes and use that for tomatoes/pole beans.

I didn't want to totally knock the earths best, I mean if it were me I would probably do a mix of soil if you need it now, like 2-3 bags of cow manure earths finest, then a commercial bag of peat, maybe a small bag of vermiculite if your planning on trying to grow a lot during the summer "peppers"/ie we have been insanely hot here in texas summer lately". If it was me I would see how much it was to get 1/2 a truckload of topsoil "would add the cinderblock above", and then amend that with either cow, horse, or chicken manure "but would make sure its composted or if raw wait to plant a couple of months".

Bunny manure is another good thing if you can get your hands on it. Up here in the Dallas area, we see adds for it on Craig's list.

BUT, most manure needs to be composted before adding it among plants other wise it burns and kills them. Donkey manure and horse manure isn't as 'hot' so won't hurt established perennials and you don't have to mix it in the soil, the soil workers will do that for you. I have a friend who puts donkey manure on top of all her beds, even the ones with freshly sowed or planted annuals. She puts it right on top or mixed into her potted plants and hanging baskets. Doesn't hurt any of those plants.

Chicken and cow manure REALLY needs to be composted first. I'm not sure about the bunny manure but from what I remember, it is pretty concentrated so I suspect it too should be composted.

Just a little reminder about that peat; Texans with years and years of experience in our clay soil have all said not to use it.

ocean
i am thinking about the option of a raised bed now that i see how the soil is.

i get that there is no perfect answer. just doing the best we can. i am just trying to do the best with help from the more experienced ones.

there is not enough time for me to research on stables/farms to get manure from them. i can probably mix it in a bit later. and since i have been told here that cow manure isn't suitable directly, that option is also out.

i haven't thrown out the grass. it is still lying in the same spot and upside down. i didn't have the energy to haul it all out yesterday with all of it being wet and heavy from the rain. there is no rain forecast today. hopefully i can get it out today.

from all the suggestions here, i can try to make some mixture of soil with the options i have at the garden center. but my 2 main questions remaining are -
1. do you think the soil should be safe enough to grow vegetables with the history of nearby oil wells.
2. should i put down ortho to get rid of the few fire ants coming from the neighbor's yard or will that mess with the fertility of the soil?

Read something interesting the other day, Melvalena, about the use of composted horse manure. It seems lime is used for sanitary purposes in the stables and gets scooped up with the manure, resulting in high alkalinity. There's no end of composted cattle manure products to pick from. Seems like I see Black Cow stacked up everywhere.

Heap dirt against that fence and you will not only accelerate deterioration (obviously well advanced, as it is) but also make it difficult to replace pickets, because the dirt will not stay in place when you remove the picket against which it is pressing.

I have no problem with the thought that peat moss will yield acceptable short term results.

I've never turned a compost pile in my life, and mine is way too high in kitchen scraps and not enough green/brown stuff, but you know what: it all rots down with time no matter what you do and whether you turn it or not.

If you use compost on a regular basis like I do, turning and adding the right ingredients guarantees that it'll be available when you need it.

1. do you think the soil should be safe enough to grow vegetables with the history of nearby oil wells.
2. should i put down ortho to get rid of the few fire ants coming from the neighbor's yard or will that mess with the fertility of the soil?

1. How long ago did they drill? Do your neighbors have gardens?

My dh did a lot of land drilling in the Abbeville, LA area back in the 80s. The area was surrounded by sugarcane fields.

2. Make sure whatever fireant bait you use is safe for a vegetable garden.

yeah i know a few who have 1 or 2 vegetables growing. mine will probably be the first bed in our section.

when i was digging through for roots yesterday, i found that the fence is held in place by concerete bases. dont know how that will affect replacing the fence when the time comes. i guess i will have to redo the bed on that side then. my neighbor on the other side of the fence said he'd also probably do a bed on his side the same way next year

Whitecap: Re the horse manure--I haven't noticed anything drastic with the high alkalinity, maybe it depends on how much (if any) lime was in the stuff I got or what the ph of my soil was to begin with? And how much of it was in there when calculating all the other stuff mixed in with the stall sweepings?

Now I'm using donkey manure when I have the where-with-all to go get it, or in a pinch the bagged composted black cow
stuff.

Re: turning a compost pile. At first I did it often. Now I never. I just don't have the time, strength or energy to devote to it. It takes longer to break down.. but that's ok with me.

scorpiouno: I wouldn't worry about the oil well business.
Yes, get rid of the ants now, and stay on top of it.

I wouldn't sweat the oil at all, unless you see it in the soil when working it. I know people are already farming in new orleans after katrina and the vegetables taste fine "amazing with all of the chemicals I know"! That in itself should debunk a lot of stuff and will be interesting to see 20-30 years down the road.

I honestly think for that size area a raised bed is by far the way to go, I origonally thought it was 3x4 times that size, making a raised bed hard. Google raised beds to get some good ideas of what they look like and ideas. The peat would be successful in a raised bed system in texas, the only thing I would say is mulch heavy, people in Texas don't and with the summer heats we have been having it will destroy your soil. I saw entire landscapes destroyed last summer. Also, a cheap and really easy compost bin is just taking 4 pallets and tying three off then making a cheap wooden hinge or pin for the 4th or just moving it, the pallets allow the air to flow. Also, after a rain me and the kids go picking up worms "didn't yesterday" and add them to the compost and my pots in the green house. You can always tell the posts when replanting that have worms vs the ones that don't, the soil smells 10x better and looks amazing.

Just some cheap and economical ways to garden. Don't go cheap on the bed because all you will end up with is a ton of weeds, you need some height and it will make things 10x easier. "not to mention if the top layer is soft with compost/mulch when you get weeds in the top you can just use a hoe if plants are spaced out good.

another thing you can do is over the winter if not growing anything, is use your neighbors pine straw and fallen leaves in the fall put them on top of the raised bed, and then take them off in the spring when planting, you'll be surprised how nice the soil is below and how little amending you'll have to do. I bury whole chicken carcasses about a two feet deep in my compost and there gone within two weeks "worms" ;) "I also don't turn it". That expanded shale might be useful if worked into the existing clay before putting the raised bed on top, that way you didn't end up with an overly dense layer, I know a lot of people don't work the soil before starting a raised bed, I am a huge fan of tilling it up prior or the roots will just hit hard clay and go sideways to the other nutrient rich soil.

To me gardening is 70% common sense 20% science, and 10% total luck.

thanks again for the tips

darn fire ants. spread like crazy all over the bed! from that one spot they spread all over. had to spread ortho everywhere. now have to try to finish it tomorrow. and my wife has preponed her trip. so even lesser time!!!

raised bed seems like a good option but it requires a lot more stones and a lot more soil

I'm thinking I'll go with this raised border - estate edging (watch from the middle of the video)

Here is a link that might be useful: Estate edging

I think you'll be very happy with that type of edging.

*giggles* Seriously, concerned about there having been an oil well??? NO. That's not how oil wells work.

(The mineral rights to our little piece of property--a bit more than a quarter acre--kept my family solvent when my mother was in grad school and my father had a really low-paying job with the university. I have great affection for oil wells.)

Reyesula, it's not the well so much as the reserve pits.

Natal, for the sake of us ignorant about "reserve pits," please explain the "how" of it.

Yard, here are a couple links that should explain it.

Basically, a reserve pit contains drilling mud which contains chemicals.

reserve pits

Statistical Assessment and Sampling of Drilling-Fluid Reserve

I would think that if the OP had run into reserve pits during digging, he would know it immediately. The consistency would be all wrong.

its definitely not reserve pits. from all of the opinions i've got here it is pretty clear that i need not worry about any oil contamination etc. just wanted to get that cleared since a neighbor brought it up.

loads of work for me today. could not work on it all weekend and wife arriving at midnight tonight. i've got a very tight timeline to stick to, to finish the bed. i'm hoping it should be done. will let y'all know

thank you again all of you.

i will post updates here as we get the plants in.

Tanowicki, the issue would have been the migration of chemicals from the pit, not the actual pit.

Good to hear it's not an issue.

sorry for the lack of updates

we have it all done and started planting. currently we have tomatoes, peppers, curry leaves, mint, roselle, okra planted.

putting vincas on the border of the bed.

will post pics as soon as i can

You should be harvesting tomatoes and peppers by now. When did you plant?

Oh I couldn't finish it back then. it wound up being an extended project. had to go out of town and by the time i got back it was again full of weeds. took em all out. took out a bit of the top soil (i know its a sin :D) to get rid of those weeds. filled up the bed with 3200 pounds of soil. looks great now. planted all of those plants around 1.5 weeks ago.
i must say the okra plants are growing like crazy!

I am having trouble using this device. instructions are not exactly clear. anyone have a clue?

https://plus.google.com/u/3/photos/113493922059177632258/albums/5766330240946225873/5766330242379425042

Here is a link that might be useful: Sprayer

My plants seem to be dying of something. Please take a look at the attached plant photos and let me know if you have any clue what it is

Here is a link that might be useful: Plants photos

went to lowes and showed the gardener there the photos. she told us they were getting too much water and thats why they were getting fungus at the bottom.

moved the plants to another bed with lesser water through the day and they seem to be fine.

now, coming back to my vegetable bed, how do i get it to drain better. while making it i put in a layer of industrial fabric, 1-2 inches of organic peat humus and then 2-3 inches of a mix of top soil and organic peat humus. the gardener said that the peat humus at the bottom must be retaining too much water

Reconsider the fabric. Reconsider the type of amendment (something about shale earlier in this thread?). And reconsider the idea of a raised bed.

But overall, look at the lay of your land: totally flat? slight slope toward the bed? And reconsider the best location for a vegetable garden. Like I said earlier, you always get a do-over in gardening, and you usually don't get it right first time.

Never be married to one idea, because the plants are telling you something!

Karin L

From what you've said, Scorpio, I would suspect that the "industrial fabric" is most likely the culprit creating the problems. Not sure what it is you're using, and why, but it seems unnecessary. The correlation might be like soil in a pot vs. soil in the ground. When it goes in the pot, a different, MUCH better draining soil mix must be used. Using that fabric seems like it would be creating a condition that is similar to the bottom of a pot. Since it's not needed, why not just remove it?

how do i remove the fabric now when its so deep inside?

you need to remove the soil from above it first. It might need to be done in sections to make it practical.