I think it would help to remove the liquidambars ASAP and then evaluate the space. (How long has it been since you could actually see the house?)

I had two large shade trees removed five weeks ago and the difference to the front yard is phenomenal. The larger was about the size of your three together. [These were nasty silver maples which had been topped (badly) many years ago and had different degrees of rot as a result. I didn't want to have to remove all the silver maples at once, as shade on the west side is desperately needed. These two were the largest and the most problematical).]

Instead of a forest, I now have a small grove with a huge clearing. You can see the house! -- from the northwest, anyway. I don't know that this will change my plans for the yard -- but on the other hand, I'm now ready to replace the sunken, tilting front walk and enlarge the foundation beds....

I agree with missingtheobvious.

If you want a path to the front doorway, will you change up your brick entryway? I think in order to get a proper walk, you're going to not want people to have to go onto your driveway.

The other thing about the brick wall is where it extends to the left side of the house. It gives you that little bed right up against the house that is too narrow The other part about it is where it ends on the left side. It just leaves that corner of the house all alone. I think you'll need to address that after you get the trees out and see what it looks like straight on.

Please don't remove the three 22-year old liquidambars from the front lawn.you only need to design tree shape.don't worry dense leaf problem, sprune them off 95%.

One sweetgum, with attention by a really good arborist, probably would have been sufficient. Possibly limbed up one more course of branches. They really are glorious - the seed balls not withstanding. Sorry, idea, but it's a bit late to be thinking Bonsai. And sometimes trees just have to go

Once gone, you'd have choice for a "proper path" to the front door since you're willing for some demo on the brick planter and reworking the brickwork.

As for organization - just one of my quirks - I don't care much for pot ghettoes. I like your succulents and would like being able to grow more than the hens & chicks that do survive in the ground here, but a pot collection lacks cohesion. Maybe a subtropical planting space along the cement/stucco wall separating you from your neighbor on the left?

Wh-wh-what possessed the person who planted THREE so close together????

Oh, I can understand the three liquidambars. I'm sure they were cute when they were smaller. (Yes, I even like the seed balls.)

No, the real question is, What possessed the previous owners of my house to plant a slew of silver maples as shade trees -- and then top them in such a way as to cause rotting limbs? And what possessed them to plant most of the major foundation shrubs in just the wrong places? And what possessed them to plant a Leyland cypress a foot from the corner of the house? And then, after having the sense to cut it down (15" diameter stump), to plant another two feet from the foundation?

And what possessed me to plant six apple trees when I already had six apple trees? What possessed me (homesick Californian) to try to grow eucalyptus and bay laurel in a valley of the Blue Ridge? (Yes, they died.) What possessed me to plant runner bamboo?

Come on, reyesuela -- confession's good for the soul. 8-)

Or maybe cut down two and leave one. You don't have any other landscape features with the same presence. They way the clump separates the entry from the street is an enhancement. If you take them all out all you will have is the house, foundation plantings and lawn. The street will then appear to be at your front door.

Removing the trees will make a good blank slate, and in San Diego there are lots of trees and shrubs that will grow very quickly to create new features. I would go ahead and do it, but I would wait to start planning the next stage until they were gone and I could see what the lanscape looked like without them.

I'd also thought of removing two. But wondered if any/all of them would show lopsided growth because of the densely shaded interior. Maybe none of them would be a particularly good looking specimen once separated from its companions.

Once they go through the chipper and the last of the debris is swept away, it'll take about 15 minutes to realize you don't miss them.

Let me rephrase the question: how would you organize the space for beds, path, negative space, etc., when the trees are gone?

All the brick can be removed and re-used -- the 1-foot brick planters are deteriorating and should go. The driveway can be removed.

No point in discussing the trees; they will soon be history.

My confessions almost all have to do with excessive faith in plant tag dimensions and with being too cavalier about the deer! So much in my yard gets eaten down to the ground every year!!!!!

I also have been trimming my forsythia wrong. And (argh!) I got on the "grass alternative" bandwagon at one point. NEVEREVER AGAIN.

I also planted my fall sweetpeas, grown from seed two months prior, without checking the forecast. A sudden heatwave killed them all. I planted my zinnias and ornamental cabbage according to instructions--and WAY too late.

And I usually don't get all my bulbs in the ground when I should. :-(

I think those are my major blunders thus far!

I'll probably have a lot more in the spring!

Hi Catkim -
when I try to imagine the space without trees, I feel the need to plant a new tree (or group of trees/tall shrubs) near the left border. A little taller than the house, but smaller than the ones you're removing. On the right, there doesn't seem to be much space for anything more than a hedge, and low plantings in front of that.
I like the brick patio, and the barrier provided by the raised bed, but might make a gap in the barrier for a foot path (so you don't have to face the bad neighbor when walking out), and put a wide planting bed in front of the raised bed.
The shape of lawn would be more or less a semi-circle. This, of course, is the most obvious, easy solution, and you might be looking for something more creative. Post pictures when the trees are gone!
I have 2 guys outside building a brick walkway very similar to your patio, I'll let you know how it turns out.

The more rich branch leaf,the more art design space. any new tree,even new mature tree,Not are so great.I say again:you could cut almost all branch leaf,Please don't cut any the tree.you can see any bonsai,more big trunk,more trunk always are nice.

Ditto to Catkim, I also think you should put a new tree in on the left side and have a brick footpath going from your entryway to either the sidewalk, driveway, or both.

This post in the California forum has some good trees for San Diego that you might like:
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/calif/msg1000345932309.html?4

If it were me I would want a gently winding path that was partially obscured by plants, and I would want some 'islands' of landscaping in the ocean of the lawn, but I have trouble with spacing and shapes so I can't help you there. But if I lived in San Diego I would have to plant Bougainvillea because I think it's fabulous.

The trees certainly dominate the picture at the moment and make it hard to even see what the house would look like without them, which makes it hard to think of a plan for after their removal! My thoughts/questions at this point are:
- while you say the driveway can go - is that practical? i.e. how inconvenient would you find it to always park in the back? Would you miss being able to pull in off the street and use the front door? Do guests park there? Is street parking and adequate substitute for guests? The fate of the driveway is important because, if it is not there, that changes the proportions of the front yard/garden substantially. Without it, there is no need for the paved patio/walk heading to the driveway and the logical primary path is one leading to/from the street. I assume though you might want a path going to the backyard...? Would that go to the left or right, or both? How prominent would you want it to be? If you remove the driveway, what happens to the hell-strip and cut-away curb? Would the town replace the hell-strip part with grass or would the fate of that strip be up to you? Ditto the curb - would the town want a normal raised curb replaced at the street?
- With or without the driveway, I'd be inclined to have a 'wall' of ornamental shrubs on the right to hide your undesirable neighbours.
- I'd also be inclined to put a tree (and other plantings) on the left side that would get tall enough to also block out the neighbour on that side such that a photo taken from the same place at the first one would in effect just feature your house.
- with a path from the street to the front door, I'd probably make a nice patio/courtyard entrance in the front door area with gardens around it that follows/incorporates the path to the street (and path(s) leading to the backyard) as part of it so that paths/courtyard/garden are all one united feature.
- I'd definitely pay attention to the shape of the 'negative space' when laying out the garden and lawn areas because the lawn will be so visible that it should be a feature on it's own I think.

But the tree removal and a decision on whether the driveway stays or goes are the first steps that I see as necessary before you move on to planning the rest of the details.

Holy House-Eating Trees, Batman!

BTW - the phrase "pot ghettos" cracked me up.

I think the biggest question is what do you WANT the front yard to do? Here are my wishes for our front yard:

Provide curb appeal ... I want to be one of the "Oh! How Pretty!" houses on the street.
Give me a space for gardening that is safe from our dog who loves to dig in the backyard.
Harmonize with the front porch I want to add on someday ... when we have more money.

In your front yard I think I'd move that palm that blocks the high windows to the right of the entry. And I'd play up that very cool facade of your house. Really maximize the modern lines & horizontal aspect.

Don't remove the driveway without replacing it - most people want a driveway & if you ever have to sell, it could matter. I'd consider getting the concrete stained to give it more interest & help it blend with the brick a little better.

Having the trees removed will make such a huge difference, it will be great to actually SEE your house ;)

I would have suggested donating your sweet gums to the 9/11 Memorial Plaza project in New York, but it's been decided that they're not welcome there either.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sweet gum threat to upstage plaza designer's scheme is thwarted

catkim---I totally get why you are taking them out. Sweetgums are a nightmare. Wish I could afford to take down ALL of ours. To those suggesting removal of one or two trees...they are so close together that they're sure to have missing limbs on the sides where the other trees are.

I, too, can't see the yard for the trees...particularly in the two-dimensions afforded by a photograph...but if you post pictures after I'm CERTAIN I'll have an opinion. (Don't I always?)

Yay! We just cut down our last willow and even my husband, who opposed the cut, is amazed by how much more pleasant our space is, and as for the workload relief.... People who love trees so much should come help take care of them, I always say. Where ARE these people when you're raking? Or in my case, when the time came to write the biannual $1000 pruning cheque?

I don't have time for much thought right now, but one thing I would do is strip away your foundation planting. Also the brick planters, as they make the house look squat - which it isn't, it's low and sleek with a great corner window with lines that should show. I'd move all that plant and planter mass to the side you want to hide, maybe making a multi-functional space beside it (brick or concrete but not both) that can be a driveway or, when you park elsewhere, anything else you like. Just a meet and greet even. Just open space that you can park in if you like. Could be anywhere in the yard with a route curling to it from the driveway entrance. OPEN the entrance up from up close, and if you want plant mass, screening, etc, move it away from the house. Step away from the house with that trowel, ma'am!

You have a public sidewalk so my eye wants a walkway to the door from it.

KarinL

My eye wants to look out the window at a garden (enclosed private space) instead of a street with parked cars, the neighbor's houses etc. Venues like Sunset Magazine have articles showing things like how a small house close to the street and open to it (front yard is typically nothing but lawn) is made more appealing by adding improvements like fencing, paving, water features. plantings - maybe even trees.

Okay, getting some useful feedback now, thank you all.

But please, stop with the "what a shame!" I don't do guilt. (see: therapy, paragraph one) ;-) One exception: pot ghetto -- guilty!! :-D

karinl -- when I am raking, neighbors walk by and say how much they love the fall color, they tell me they collect leaves for their Thanksgiving table decorations, but so far, no one has offered to rake any leaves! :-D Like your idea of a multi-functional space and plants away from the house.

bboy -- "look out the window" -- yes, exactly. We used to do that when the trees were younger and still transparent. Modifying the entry shape could really help.

woodyoak -- wall of shrubs to hide the neighbors, it's gotta happen.

Several of you mentioned moderate height to the left -- yes, I think that will happen, but not exactly sure what shape it will take. Definitely no more 60 ft. trees!

Also several of you mention the horizontality of the house -- mostly obscured by the trees -- an important design element, thank you for reminding me!!

In his first post, bboy said: The way the clump separates the entry from the street is an enhancement. If you take them all out all you will have is the house, foundation plantings and lawn. The street will then appear to be at your front door.

So I thought perhaps there could be a screening effect at the sidewalk.

Disclaimers: There is no driveway. All the lines are curved. I can't recommend particular plants for your area, so I'm mostly talking about shapes. I know you're the palm enthusiast, so I thought about spiky palms to wall out the neighbor on the right.

The front walkway is opposite the corner of the house with all the windows. It starts out perpendicular to the sidewalk, then after several feet turns slightly left, aiming for the center of the new patio.

The patio is roughly square: about 10-12' wide. The existing raised beds have been removed except for the section in front of the leftmost part of the house. The patio extends out to the front of the raised beds. The walkway joins the front of the patio on the right side.

Adjacent to the front walkway on the other side of that corner of the patio, a path runs to the gate to the backyard; everything on the house side of the path is a single large bed. The bed begins a few feet to the left of the corner with the windows, starting almost perpendicular to the house, curving out in a bulge that meets the path to the gate. There's a low cluster of accent plants in the middle of the bulge. The path curves very slightly in and out around the corners of the house -- just enough curve to keep it from being boring.

There are places for your potted plants: along the front of the patio between the surviving raised bed and the walkway; under the windows between the front door and the bulge of the bed that's delineated by the path to the gate; also along the front of the path to the side gate. (The path narrows as it nears the gate, so no pots on the last 10-12' or so).

On the left side of the yard is a rounded rectangle of lawn about 25' x 18'. The bed along the Spanish wall is deeper than the bed along the street. The front corner is quite deep. There is a squat palm in that corner, and a narrow, taller tree or palm at a 45-degree angle southeast from the corner of the house.

On the right side of the front walkway, the perimeter bed is a similar shape. The lawn is a sort of bent-chili-pepper shape (ancho, maybe); the base of the pepper is along the front walkway, the tip points toward the gate. In the right front corner is another squat palm. West of that palm along the boundary with the rental are four or five smaller low palms to wall out sight of the messy rental. In front of those palms, perhaps some tall NZ flax (yes, I overdid the spiky thing). Where the bed narrows near the gate, something dense like clumping bamboo.

Possible trees or shrubs could be located at the corner where the front walkway meets the path to the side gate, and at the rounded tip of the chili-pepper lawn.

Now back to bboy pointing out the need for a screening effect at the sidewalk. Not a hedge, but an open screen of plants to separate the shallow yard from the outside world. Most of the bed along the sidewalk is lowish whatever-you-want, but there are a few taller ones: maybe two or three on the left, another two on the right. Narrow. Airy rather than dense. Probably in the 5-10' range (and replaced when they get too tall).

Immediately to the left of the walkway is a multi-trunked tallish something (6-10') with a lot of presence. Several feet wide, but very open. I could see it as something like a dracena marginata or a well-pruned Japanese maple or pine. Well-shaped. Graceful. Attention-grabbing.

Wow. A lot of thought and effort went into that, missingtheobvious. I think I get it, but i'll read it again several times, and walk the space with this in mind. I hope the yard is large enough to hold all those suggestions! I like the chili-pepper lawn shape, just enough, not too much.

"multi trunked tallish something (6-10') with a lot of presence." Ooo! Ooo! Dypsis onilahensis weeping form! No worries, I can fill in the blanks. I might have to change "squat palms" into "cycads".

Interesting, worth thinking about, thank you.

Glad you like it. Most of the thought and effort was in figuring out how to explain it in words -- and then Firefox ate the first version....

Cycads work. (If I met one, I'm sure I'd call it a palm.)

I've never seen anything like the weeping dypsis, but it would work too.

mto the tree-killer

Okay Kim, here comes...

Uhhhh, let's see. If there's no need for the driveway, rip it out. I don't like those little strips between the sidewalk and the street. Rip out the grass and put concrete tiles spaced two or three inches apart and plant with that blue oriental clumping zoysia grass. It's drought resistant and you don't have to mow it all the time. On the rough, rental side plant lets say three of those tall, narrow Italian cypresses well spaced apart and between them plant a selection of rosemary that gets 4-6 feet tall. Towards the sidewalk swoop around a couple of more feet with a lower 1-2 foot selection of rosemary. In that now semi-enclosed rosemary area you can put your pots of bromeliads and other things. Somewhere, where the trees are now, splurge and get a big, fat Bismarckia. On the other side where the masonry fence is plant about three palms of your choosing and plant some agave attenuata between them. Clear out that walkway area near the front door and take the low-lying brick planter down.

-Ron-

I would prune the trees first and see how it looks. I think you may be surprised. I would prune them up high so you can see most of the house. The other thing I would do is make one long white planter under the windows in the front and remove the individual pots. If you have more $$, you could create a new entry or front beds with some curved lines.

Robin's advice above is probably the way I'd go, even if just to satisfy my curiosity. My first thought was the same "what a shame", what about just removing the lower branches, how about removing all but one of the trees (I have seen trees regain their natural shape once the competition is removed; however I don't know how quickly, well, or even whether these liquidambars would do so). But, Catkim, I understand you've had it "up to here" with leaf raking and those sweet gum balls! Just consider any new trees very carefully, or you may be just trading one problem for another.

As for the pot ghetto, I'm as guilty as you are, but mine are perennials hidden out in the back yard awaiting planting. A collection of individual plants in pots can be attractive (actually, I've read it's the new big thing in container gardening); it's a matter of placement. Use pots of different sizes and shapes, perhaps some elevated.

As for the driveway, someone made an excellent point asking where your guests park. An alternative might be an area with what I'll call perforated paving stones. The grass grows up through them, mostly hiding them, but make a good surface for occasional traffic/parking.

guilt, guilt, guilt.....

Ok, if guilt wont work at least try this before you wack them down. Prune off the lowest couple of courses of limbs. Enough so you can at least see the front window and entry way. maybe even enough so you can see the roof. The trees are tall enough they should be able to withstand the damage without too much trouble.

Then stand back and take a look. you may be surprised that you can have your cake and eat it too. Beside, cutting off a few limbs is WAAAy cheaper than cutting down three full size trees. And if you still dont like it, then go ahead a cruelly cut them down.

Yankee Dog

Catkim, I have been biting my tongue through this discourse. Many of those trying to send you on a guilt trip over tree removal have never lived with these beautiful, hardy, tall, wide spreading, awesome at maturity, trees. But, what a mess they create dropping sharp, spiny fruit that make a yard practically unusable. And cleaning up under them is a painful job better left to the mow and blow guys. This is a dumb problem to live with in such a restricted yard space that has some interesting landscape possibilities for you to develop. Wrong trees in the wrong place. A mistake. A learning situation. Correct it.

Like I said in the first post, "...after years of... therapy..." ; ) Thank you, nandina, well said. Even one liquidambar is too much for my small space, lesson learned.

These trees were very nicely and very seriously pruned two years ago. The price for pruning was only slightly less than the quote for removal. The pruning stimulated growth nicely, and now they are bigger than ever. Just think of all the wonderful mulch I can get...

When you cut the trees down, the leftover roots are probably going to sprout. I've recently removed several DOZEN from my property that sprouted over the years from seeds or by suckering. I still have several DOZEN more to take out before the thicket behind the house becomes a wooded area. I truly despise those trees and once they are gone the oaks, elms and the other trees that are struggling will hopefully take over and start growing better.

They may be a native but they are terribly invasive if you can't mow around them.

Kim,
If you haven't found a local landscape designer/architect to help you with the garden remodel and are still looking for one, I would be honored to help you with this redesign. It would be great fun to do a design for San Diego/Pt. Loma conditions, and I know we share a lot of the same fascinations with bromeliads, palms, subtropicals and fitting it all in within a small plot of land. Plus, it would be nice to get down to San Diego, and finally also get a chance to visit nurseries down there, as it has been a great while since the last time I made it down to San Diego.

I'd agree with the various posters that are recommending ditching the driveway and possibly creating a more enclosed space/viewing garden with some form of low wall or barrier plantings between you and the street, and if any new trees are to go back in, something more interesting for your climate and smaller sized to stay in scale with the house, or possibly a specimen palm or two instead of trees. The front entry might also be made more interesting if the walk was pulled back away from the house foundation to give more generous proportions for your bromeliad collection up against the window wall. Anyway, if any of this sounds interesting, email me directly! At the least, if you aren't in an immediate hurry to get started, I'd love to visit and give you ideas in person if we could make it work schedule wise.

David Feix, aka Bahia

David, you are the bee's knees! I will send you an email soon.

[green with envy]

:-)

KarinL

ALSO green with envy. Now, catkim---you've got to do a long thread when you start! And keep us posted.

Update...

This morning:

{{gwi:51415}}

Later this morning:

{{gwi:51416}}

As daughter said, "what a relief!" I agree. I can see the sky.

Congratulations!

Did you shock the neighbors?

Agreed, the sky is the best part. After our willow came down even my husband, who would have preferred to keep it, was amazed at how wonderful that open feeling is. And you kept the chippings, clever woman!

KarinL

Look at that huge pile of wood chips!

Wow! - It's like a whole new house and garden to play with!

That looks so much better!!

So funny, your new pictures remind me of when I took out a tree from my old house...It was shocking at first. I would look out the window and see a blank space where a tree should be. Kind of when you get a major haircut and don't recognize yourself when you look in a mirror. Then I got used to it and loved the more open feeling for the yard.

Well I would have left one tree standing...not moralizing you for cutting down the trees or anything, just I would have left 1 solely for visuals. But I'm sure you work out something better without them.