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Sod/seed, drainage and irrigation

Posted by bigfootlabrador 10b (My Page) on
Fri, Oct 26, 12 at 20:23

We bought a house about year ago which had a number of problems with the landscaping. While we have fixed some, we still have:

1. Kikuyu grass, which has taken over about 1/3 of the yard.
2. A swale in the front yard, with a drain about 8 inches below where the soil meets the house (lucky they didn't bury the weepscreed). We also have a somewhat bumpy groundlevel. The edge of the pad drains toward the house, and part of that edge is higher than the rest, about 4 inches higher. We would like a somewhat more level and smoother grade.
3. Irrigation where we have plenty of water pressure and easily enough valves, but odd zoning an sprinkler locations. The irrigation appears to have been put in during three separate phases. Some areas are not watered well. Parts of the lawn have much more shade than others.

We have spoken to a couple of landscapers. For about 3500 square feet, they have recommended killing the lawn (turflon for the kikuyu grass), removing it, doing some regrading, and putting in sod. They had different recommendations regarding irrigation. One wants to adjust as necessary. The other wants to rip out all pvc from the valves and start over. Estimates range from $18-22,000.

Are there realistic options to fix this less intrusively? For example, use seed instead of sod, separate individual sprinkler valves onto separate zones, smooth out the bumpiness with mulch or manure instead of cutting off the top layer.

What info would you need? I have seen some quite detailed posts here. Aside from looking at our lawn, we have a big dog that likes to play fetch.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Sod/seed, drainage and irrigation

There's some unfamiliar terminology in you're introduction so it might take a little more information to get understanding of the problems. What's a weepscreed? You might add a picture of the overall yard to give a feel for what's there. Try to show any drainage issues.


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RE: Sod/seed, drainage and irrigation

A weep screed is at the bottom of a stucco wall, to allow moisture to exit. Sometimes covered up by landscapers, contractors, or homeowners who don't know better. http://activerain.com/blogsview/2335157/does-your-weep-screed-weep-tem ecula-home-inspector?page=2 In that case, "As water runs down the drainage plane behind the stucco and cannot exit at the weep screed, it may be pushed to the interior of the wall causing moisture damage and even mold and mildew growth in the wall cavities."

It's dark now, but I'll get pictures and more data tomorrow.


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RE: Sod/seed, drainage and irrigation

It's what we Usanians call weep holes.


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RE: Sod/seed, drainage and irrigation

Here is a layout of the front lawn. You can see the drainage. The surface of the lawn slopes left to right at 1/8" per foot.
From the edge of the house to the drain is 4 inches. From the edge of the pad marked "high point" to the drain is 11.5 inches.

We are considering trimming the high point down by 4-6 inches, so that the lawn is comparatively more level. Left to right the front lawn is about 110 feet. It is 20-25 feet wide on the section next to the house.

So, part 1 is, should we simply trim down the higher part. There are some roots from the nearby trees which are visible. Some of the roots are 3-4 inches.

Part 2 is, the surface of the grass is currently bumpy. We could do an assortment of things to try to level that. Removing all the current grass and putting in sod would do it. So would removing the current grass and seeding. Not sure about trying to kill just the kikuyu grass and putting in some soil, mulch, manure, etc.


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Photo of front lawn

Here is the matching photo


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RE: Sod/seed, drainage and irrigation

Bigfoot, what is the "pad"? I see a wavy line differentiating grass from other plantings in the drawing, but not in the photo. It looks like grass goes to the fence, or nearly. I'm not exactly sure what you are measuring. Does the word "drain" in the photo represent its actual location? (It can't be seen.) If so, I take it then that the stated measurements are vertical, not horizontal ... ? I'm sure the information seems clear as you can see everything. The photo would be more useful if it didn't contain heavy shadows and if the grass was cut first. Also, a photo that showed from the edge of drive all the way to the back yard would be helpful.

How did you ascertain the 1/8" per foot slope? That's about half the minimum slope necessary for a grassed area. It would be good to know exactly how much higher the pool deck is than the drive at their points closest to one another. If you have a line level and could measure this, it would be helpful. (Run the line level and measure the vertical drop at each end. Subtract the shorter measurement from the longer.) Does ponding occur somewhere along the drainage route? I'm wondering why there is a catch basin and buried drain pipe when It appears that surface drainage would work. How does the pipe terminate?

What you're calling the "high point" does not appear as a hump. Are you describing the linear ridge-like feature, as opposed to a "point"?

Grade-wise, what is happening on the other side of the fence? Is any water draining from your yard to the other side of the fence, or from there to your yard?

What type of lawn grass do you have? Also, where are you and what's the climate like?

Generally, when a lawn is bumpy, one uses topsoil or sand to fill in the small depressions--not to change the grade--just to make it smooth to walk on. We can come back to this after figuring out what the problems are.

Adjusting the irrigation versus re-doing piping will boil down to how many adjustments are required. It depends on adding up the cost of each method and comparing the two. If the "adjustments" cost almost as much as the "re-do" it may be better to go with the latter. It's likely, though, that you wouldn't be able to discover the cost of adjustments until the process of doing them was underway. Maybe you can get a ball-park estimate on it first.


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RE: Sod/seed, drainage and irrigation

"Bigfoot, what is the "pad"?"

The neighborhood was done as cut and fill. Pads are distinct, and in this case it goes to the fence. Then it drops at a 45 degree angle to the street.

The planter has separate plants and irrigation, but no stone/edging, etc. in the current configuration.

"It looks like grass goes to the fence, or nearly."

The planters are about 4 feet wide, but it varies. The boundary is wavy.

"Does the word "drain" in the photo represent its actual location?"

Yes.

"I take it then that the stated measurements are vertical, not horizontal ... ?"

The lawn at the edge of the house is 4 inches higher than the drain. At the ridge toward the fence, it is 11.5 inches higher than the drain. Yes, vertical differences.

"How did you ascertain the 1/8" per foot slope? That's about half the minimum slope necessary for a grassed area."

With a 6 foot level, a tape measure, and a plumb line. It's consistent with the 4 inch difference in lawn height over 32 feet where the lawn meets the house.

"It would be good to know exactly how much higher the pool deck is than the drive at their points closest to one another."

I think the difference is 15 inches over a distance of 112 feet. I can try checking in the daylight.

"Does ponding occur somewhere along the drainage route? I'm wondering why there is a catch basin and buried drain pipe when It appears that surface drainage would work. How does the pipe terminate?"

We sometimes get 6 inches of rain an hour. Then we get some ponding. Regular 1-2 inches and hour, no ponding.

"What you're calling the "high point" does not appear as a hump. Are you describing the linear ridge-like feature, as opposed to a "point"?"

It's a ridge, about 30 feet long.

"Grade-wise, what is happening on the other side of the fence? Is any water draining from your yard to the other side of the fence, or from there to your yard?"

45 degree drop off to the street. That's why the developer made sure to send water from the pad either along the pad or toward the house. Otherwise, there would be erosion.

"What type of lawn grass do you have?"

Marathon 1. Invaded by kikuyu, and a little crabgrass.

" Also, where are you and what's the climate like?"

Calabasas CA. Zone 10b. Almost never frosts. Never freezes. Dry and in the mid 90s in the hottest part of summer. More typically around a high of 80. Coastal fog much of the year in the mornings.


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RE: Sod/seed, drainage and irrigation

"Pads are distinct, and in this case it goes to the fence." ... so you mean that it's the graded lot?

What you call the "planter" would be the planting or landscape bed. Usually, "planter" means a large constructed or manufactured container for plants.

"We sometimes get 6 inches of rain an hour. Then we get some ponding." Could you indicate with circles on the plan where ponding occurs?

What's needed first is the exact elevation difference between points "A" and "B" (indicated by the blue line in my drawing.) Using a carpenters level will not be accurate enough. You need to obtain a LINE LEVEL from Home Depot, Lowe's or Hardware store. (Will be with measuring or with mason's tools. A cheap, plastic one will be less than $5.) Also get a small amount of mason's twine on which to hang the line level. You could use string if it's strong enough, or fishing line. See the diagram on how to set it up. You can tie the line to anything so long as it ends up tight (non-sagging) and level. You could attach it to a concrete block, if you have one, setting on the pool deck ... and your car bumper on the driveway. But make sure it's exactly tight and level before taking the vertical measurement readings.

Please provide a picture that shows the area within the yellow triangle taken from approximately where the orange square is located.


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RE: Sod/seed, drainage and irrigation

"What's needed first is the exact elevation difference between points "A" and "B" "

That difference is 11.5 inches. the distance is 78 feet. This is consistent with the county post-grading survey, which shows less than 2 feet of grade on the whole front yard. It is also consistent with neighboring lots, most of which have required some work on drainage or grade because the developer didn't do it right.

We had to redo the back yard because of these problems, and it's now fine. So,please believe me when I say an average of 1/8 inch per foot from left to right.

While ponding is rare, when it occurs, it is where the word "drainage" is at on the map. There is a downspout at the corner of the house which empties onto the lawn and probably contributes to ponding during very heavy rains. We may tie it to the lawn drainage while doing work on the lawn.

As you get closer to the driveway at the right of the picture, the lawn is flatter. The curb along the driveway has an opening at point B, which apparently allows water from the driveway to do down the nearby lawn drain.


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RE: Sod/seed, drainage and irrigation

Where's the lowest point within the yellow rectangle? And how much lower than point "B" is it?

When ponding occurs, does the pond include the drain/catch basin location?

Is the buried drain pipe 4"?


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RE: Sod/seed, drainage and irrigation

"Where's the lowest point within the yellow rectangle? And how much lower than point "B" is it?"

The lowest point is the catch basin near the driveway. It is the circle where the drain pipe makes a 90 degree turn.

"When ponding occurs, does the pond include the drain/catch basin location?"

The silver stake is at the drain next to the house. The photo is taken standing next to the drain by the driveway.

No.

"Is the buried drain pipe 4"?"

I think so. The output is 4"

In the photo, the silver stake is at the drain next to the house. The photo is taken from the other drain by the driveway.


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RE: Sod/seed, drainage and irrigation

Here is the reverse view.


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RE: Sod/seed, drainage and irrigation

Let's call the drain nearest the house catch basin "A", and drain nearest the drive, catch basin "B". A couple of things don't gel for me. If basin "B" is the lowest point, how can ponding, when it occurs, not occur there? The original grading theory seems a little confusing. If the ridge along the left of your first photo is to keep water from running down the hill toward the street, then why would the water be concentrated in a pipe (where it will be moving faster in concentrated volume) only to empty out on that same hill so it can run toward the street? (The new photos make it appear that it's a downhill run all the way to the drive.)

Back to your original question of lowering the bermed ridge a few inches ... as long as not so much that it will alter the general drainage scheme, I can't see that it will hurt anything. The large tree roots, may be an impediment or prevent your doing it. It depends on how these are situated. But why do you want to make the yard more level in this way? I'm trying to figure out what you gain by it. I don't think you need all that much berm, but what do you gain by lowering it? It's not prime walking space and you wouldn't want to end up with too large of a gap below the fence.


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RE: Sod/seed, drainage and irrigation

"The original grading theory seems a little confusing. If the ridge along the left of your first photo is to keep water from running down the hill toward the street, then why would the water be concentrated in a pipe (where it will be moving faster in concentrated volume) only to empty out on that same hill so it can run toward the street? "

While I won't defend the approach of the developer, the water from the lawn goes in at the two basins on the dotted line and then goes out to the street, which has curbs and storm drains. Thus, not much erosion potential.

The surface ponding occurs because the downspout at the corner of the house currently sends a lot of water across the surface of the lawn (large blue line). The grade isn't quite uniform and a tree root slows the left to right drainage at the surface because it creates a slight bump.

I doubt we would get ponding if we didn't have a large portion of the roof emptying rain onto the front yard.

Surface water flow is now marked with blue arrows.


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RE: Sod/seed, drainage and irrigation

"why do you want to make the yard more level in this way? I'm trying to figure out what you gain by it. I don't think you need all that much berm, but what do you gain by lowering it? It's not prime walking space and you wouldn't want to end up with too large of a gap below the fence."

We like to play fetch in that section of the yard. If you add in the driveway and the hillside which is not in the picture, you can get about a 150 foot throw. Our current hope is to have a more level lawn with about a 3-4 inch step up to where the planters are.


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RE: Sod/seed, drainage and irrigation

The primary drainage objective on a lot is to make sure water drains away from the structure. There won't be any negative consequence to the structure if you lower the height of the berm. If you lower it so much that water spills onto the slope on the other side of the fence, there may be an erosion consequence that you mentioned earlier, but there should be/have been steps taken to establish erosion control plantings on the slope so that erosion is prevented.

The ponding sound as if it occurs only during the storm but does not persist after. I wouldn't consider it to be an issue worthy of much attention unless the house was threatened. But it doesn't sound like it is. If that were to change in the future, then you might need to look into increasing the size of the buried pipe

Hopefully, someone will advise you on how to control or eliminate Kikuyu grass. I'm not familiar with it.

See if you can get, or find out where to get Marathon seed from Saddleback Supply: 800-286-7263. Marathon is a trade named dwarf tall fescue blend. If you can't locate some, you may be satisfied with another competing variety of dwarf tall fescue. You'll need to do a little research to see what's available and if its characteristics will be acceptable to you. If you can obtain seed, you can grow a lawn from it, and with fescue the cool season--now--is the time to do it. As I mentioned before, when the yard is bumpy, it is usually sand that's used to fill in the depressions and smooth it out. But really, anything like dirt will work. Sand is the easiest to use and doesn't decompose ... requiring touching up later. But touching up is a relatively minor issue.

Each irrigation valve is one zone. The objective would be to have one zone providing water for plants with like watering requirements. I wouldn't know how much work you need done in order to have that happen, but you should be able to get an irrigation specialist to provide a ball-park estimate and then work through the system accomplishing your objectives. I'd at least explore the reconfigure and adapt option before doing a complete rebuild. You may need to provide some leeway as sometimes pinpointing a price for work like that can be harder than the work itself. If you require an exact price, the bid might be higher in order to cover possible contingencies. If it were my yard, I would create a very simple plan that shows how the yard should be divided into watering zones. It would be nothing more than the plan you've posted here (of the entire yard) with "circles" (outlines) around the various watering zones/plant types. Where an area is too large for one zone (like turf) it would be subdivided, but the irrigation tech can appraise how that would best be done. Discussing your "plan" with them would allow you to see if you and they are on the same page for the work. If you talk to one company and they can't help, try another.


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RE: Sod/seed, drainage and irrigation

  • Posted by bahia SF Bay Area (My Page) on
    Tue, Oct 30, 12 at 12:52

I might make a general case for learning to live with Kikuyu grass if you can, as it is actually one of the most drought tolerant yet green all year grasses for southern California, and thrives with very little water compared to others. If it is kept mowed and trimmed, it can actually be a nice looking lawn. It does help if you install a concrete mowband at the edges, as the rhizomes are a constant battle to keep out of planting areas. If you switch out the lawn grass to a more water needy type such as tall fescue, you should definitely replumb the irrigation zones so that valves for turf are segregated by sun/shade or wetter/dry out faster areas; it will help with keeping your total water usage down.

Do you really ever get 6 inches of rain in an hour? Rainfall in southern California is rarely even 2 inches in a day. 6 inches in an hour is only likely where one gets hurricanes. In any case, if you connect your downspouts directly to the drain line, you'll minimize ponding.

Weep screeds on stucco houses are nothing like a weep hole, and weep screeds are a common building characteristic on all stucco houses built across the country, where wood framing is used. A weep screed is a continuous feature all around the base of the foundation walls, at the point where the stucco terminates and the required 6 inch gap to dirt and the concrete foundation wall extends to grade.


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RE: Sod/seed, drainage and irrigation

"I might make a general case for learning to live with Kikuyu grass if you can, as it is actually one of the most drought tolerant yet green all year grasses for southern California, and thrives with very little water compared to others. If it is kept mowed and trimmed, it can actually be a nice looking lawn." Your point is correct, and I have spoken with a golf course landscaper who tolerates it in some areas.

Part of the reason why kikuyu grass invaded was the nutty layout of the current irrigation. It led to certain parts of the lawn not getting enough water for the Marathon 1, and the kikuyu invading.

However, after carefully looking at the layout, I think I have a solution. There is an unused sprinkler valve that works located a few feet from where I need an additional one. The prior owners tried to irrigate the front lawn only from one side (near the house). The unused valve would need 6-7 sprinklers on the other edge of the grass. Since we expect to regrade some in that area anyhow, digging for irrigation won't be a problem.

In addition, the prior owners had mixed very different types of sprinklers on the same line (some big canister impact sprinklers, some popup, some fixed, different brands). It's not difficult to put in consistent sprinklers on each zone.

After more reading here, I am leaning strongly toward reducing the bumpiness of the lawn with a mix of sand and some organic matter. We applied some fertilizer and irrigated in the slightly cooler weather to get the current lawn ready for herbicide. While the kikuyu grew too, the fescue has exploded with growth. With matching seed, it could fill in pretty well without having to sod the whole lawn.

We are fortunate that we are on a ridgeline near the coast and get a good deal of rain and fog. It's only July to Mid September that we use much water for the lawn.

Yes, we have gotten 6 inches of rain in an hour, March 20, 2011, http://www.malibutimes.com/news/article_33239209-0217-5ac3-b66b-100060 75ca13.html . We're near one of the official stations and it was awful. We have also gotten over 4 inches in a day a couple of times. We had redone the drainage in the back yard by then, and can confidently say it will take incredibly serious storms. Rain near the ridgeline is often several times as much as downtown LA or LAX.

Thanks


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