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joe_fristoe

Wind, sun and what best fits my backyard

Bama_Joe
9 years ago

Hi everyone!

Please ignore the grass situation, will finish sodding in spring.

I had 3 Allee Elms planted for their dappled shade and attractive bark. The yard is south facing, with a bed of 5 Camellia Japonicas on the west side, shaded from midday sun by neighbors mature oaks. I would like to add to my yard, but thinking I need additional shade for more camellias. I have enough space to collect Camellias and add other things I believe. I enjoy hummingbirds{{gwi:807}} (currently by feeder) and other birds and insects like bees and butterflies.

I'm trying to plan things out and would like advice. Best area for more camellias, ideas for other plants/shrubs. I do have a hammock for the back porch and like to enjoy nature. I have azaleas out front, a watnong japanese maple, little Bonnie spireas, a Bloodgood Japanese maple, a few drift roses, a Kwanzan cherry tree, purple pixie loropetalum, etc. out front (not necessarily in that order). any thoughts on what I can do out back? I like to think there is plenty of canvas left.

This post was edited by Bama_Joe on Sun, Dec 7, 14 at 21:23

Comments (47)

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Facing north on the east side

  • PRO
    Yardvaark
    9 years ago

    So we can see the yard looking outward from the house, stand roughly at the crosswise center of the yard and take a set of photos that pan from left to right. Photos should overlap a little. Upload individually; don't make them into a computer panorama.

    {{gwi:2117925}}

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Facing west

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Two

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Three

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Four

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Five

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Six

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    The dying cherry blossom is coming down (the previous owner had planted one in each corner). I also extended the fence a little when it was replaced. There was an above ground pool in the center of the yard (took it and the gigantic deck down) along with a half screen and half Masonite and paneling partially screened porch. Didn't like any of it. Much more open and have a few things to fix/replace, but feels much larger now. Feels like I have a blank canvas to create my own little "Joe's Nature Preserve".

  • PRO
    Yardvaark
    9 years ago

    Don't have time to do anything with it now, but have pieced it together and am posting in case anyone else wants to look or use it. Sorry it's so shrunk but that's all GW will allow.

    {{gwi:2117932}}

    This post was edited by Yardvaark on Tue, Dec 9, 14 at 0:32

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I have nothing but time as well. Not going to rush anything, just want something I can be proud of and enjoy one day. Thanks for always responding yardvaark!

  • PRO
    Yardvaark
    9 years ago

    Joe, you might start by considering the overall objectives and character that you want the yard to have and the overall possibilities of what can be accomplished. Do you want it to be private or open to view from the neighbors? Do you want it to be entirely shady (or sunny) in the future? ... or shaded at the perimeter and exposed to the sun at its central area ... like a "clearing in the woods"? Are there to be areas with a specific function (recreational/garden, etc.)? Or will the back yard be primarily for viewing? Is there a need for increased patio space? Can the storage shed be moved or would that be too much trouble? I note that the shrubs planted at the house foundation are much too close to the building. The distance is dependent on what the plants are and the size they will be maintained at.

    Speculating based on what I might do if I lived there, I'd consider creating a lounge area near the house and an open area at the central portion of the yard that can do duty as a recreational area (play on the lawn). I'd keep the central portion of yard open to permit viewing beyond and develop privacy at the perimeter such that neighbor's structures are no longer visible. Would hope to screen the shed, at least partially. Decide if a veg. or flower garden will be part of the space. Would have the central space be turf and the perimeter be trees, groundcover and shrubs with a clear division between landscape beds and lawn. Even though the yard is rectangular, I would want the lawn space to have a circular ("clearing in the woods") flavor. The house would be incorporated into the yard perimeter and have landscaped "foundation" plantings that surround it. When it comes to details, it would be nice to see something done with the posts surrounding the patio so that they added charm instead of only a utilitarian flavor.

    Please add one more picture that is taken from the area between the shed and corner of yard, looking back at house. Maybe a couple of pictures, panning the scene.

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    This all started when my German Shepard was diagnosed with Discoid Lupus and Pannus (another disease but this only affects the eyes). They are both aggravated by extremely bright light such as sun in Summer or sun and snow. I had wanted sunburst honey locusts, but was unable to find locally. The type do shade I am going mostly for, is dappled, which the elms and their small leaves provide. I do need filler however, as my yard is pretty large. I want to collect Camellias and creating a haven for hummingbirds, butterflies and other pollinators, while having something pretty to look at is my goal.

    One of the things I have thought about, was whether the location of the Japonicas will be prone to frost and wind damage. As far as the foundation plantings, those rhododendrons are supposed to be 4.5 tall and 4 ft high. The Camellias are what you are mainly talking about? I had considered widening that bed considerably and adding another 2 sasanquas or so. If I had a dream goal as far as wildlife, it would be to attract songbirds, as well as keeping hummingbirds as long as I can (I hear there are places in North Alabama where they winter and dont leave. I had no specific plans about the center, but a an area in the center such as you talked about sounds nice.

    Trees, I have the 3 Allee Elms, but what else could be done as additions that would work well, while still keeping the dappled shade? I'm guessing the starburst honeylocust would be too big? Not sure if I answered your questions completely.

    She'd not able to be moved at this time (tried to give it to my mother). I will take more pics and the posts will definitely be changing (they were part of what appears to have been a home built screened porch. Perimeter of trees sounds like what I want, then I have that dappled shade. Foundation plantings, sure. I could actually walk the entire perimeter of the house, which would show you what I have out front (video posted to youtube), as well as the requested pictures.

    This post was edited by Bama_Joe on Tue, Dec 9, 14 at 15:24

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    9 years ago

    defining how much grass you want ... for whatever purpose .. thereby defines how much can be relegated to garden beds ..

    any pool dreams???

    bocci lanes???

    kids.. sandboxes.. etc ...

    jarts .. oh my.. remember the days of mom and dad hurling small javelins at each other.. lol ...

    ken

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Ken,

    Grass is a secondary thing to cover the areas I am unable to landscape. As long as my dogs have paths to run, it is enough grass. The meyer zoysia should be alright under dappled shade, from what I've seen here in my area, just can't handle maple type shade. Also, need to keep shade to keep my German Shepard healthy. Meds for the rest of his life and working towards at least reducing the sunlight intensity (also love flowering shrubs like camellias...so goes hand in hand). I have no plans to play sports, run demo derby in the backyard or install a pool. I just wouldn't use a pool, didn't even use the above ground (GSD is also scared to get in). My buddy has a very nice place with a pool, about 5 miles down the road if I want to swim. :)

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    One

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Two

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Three

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Four - Stepping out for clear view beyond shed

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Five - stepping out for clear view beyond shed

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I am currently working on getting the shed moved off the property, to a family member who will use it.

  • aegis1000
    9 years ago

    Look for your Sunburst Locusts starting next spring.

    Between your local big box hardware stores (Home Depot, Lowes), and any local nurseries, you should be able to find them sometime between March and June.

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I realize tastes differ, but will the sunbursts go well with the upright, vase shaped elms and their beautiful mottled bark? The sunburst has its beautiful foliage and I love the branching, but also want the correct trees with correct placement. I guess that's where I can start. Need to start getting input and picking trees and tree placement, for the dappled shade I am going to want for camellias and whatever else (who knows. .maybe even a mophead or two somewhere. I've always wanted one (planted a limelight early this fall).

  • PRO
    Yardvaark
    9 years ago

    It's fine to have some ideas about what plants you want to have, but before committing to them, you'd want to determine the overall geometry of the lawn vs. landscape bed area. It's a circular-ish shape that calls to me first, but you could explore any flavor that appeals to you. I've played with a couple of different ovals as you see in the attached illustration. Personally, the first one appeals to me more, but I don't like the way the bed narrows so much near the air conditioner. (Looking at the photo of the house in that area, that blank wall is calling to me about having a small flowering tree somewhere in the near vicinity.) I'm not trying to say what the plan should be, but trying to show you what you should be exploring and generally how to do it. There are innumerable possibilities and variations you could look at, of which one, at the end, you must like. However, you should be drawing at a measured scale so as to make sure that things fit when you get to installing them.

    It's great that one can grow a lawn under a honey locust, but I've never found them to produce enough shade that I can go without sunglasses under their canopy.

    {{gwi:2117938}}

  • catkim
    9 years ago

    Based on what you've written, I'm imagining an open wooded feel, with informal, wide paths connecting several "viewpoints" (for lack of a better word. You might think of how you'd like to "walk the garden" each day, and what you'd like to see from each vantage point. Might you install 2 or 3 benches or large boulders to sit on along the way? Or do you want to sit on the patio and take it all in from that viewpoint?

    You have the borrowed landscape to the west -- the large trees above the fence line will provide some afternoon shade, so don't plant anything needing full sun in their shadow. For more shade, plant selected tall, broad canopy trees toward the south of your lot.

    I'm not familiar with your zone and can't comment on individual plants.

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I do need to draw something to scale. Surely there is some decent landscape design software. I've been thinking about the Chinese pistache. It's an upright tree with dappled shade, not quite as tall as the elms currently planted, but believe the width of what I choose won't be an issue. They work well in this area from what I understand. I had thought about two small trees, one nearear the double gate and one nearer the single gate, but thinking you may be on to something with only adding to the back. In all honesty, the only plants I've considered are Camellias, which I plan to collect and maybe a hydrangea or two, each encircled by some sort of evergreen. I want to bring insects and birds in, which goes hand in hand with pretty blooms. Gotta love it. I haven't had enough experience with other plants to say I'd want them. I do plan on taking a trip to the local botanical garden (Huntsville) for some ideas.

  • PRO
    Yardvaark
    9 years ago

    I would flat out quit thinking about specific plants at the moment and focus on layout because you won't have an idea of what the space needs until you have an idea of what the bed shape & size is. After that, things will easily fall into place and you will find the best places for the plants you desire. (I see a nice place right now, based on my theoretical sketches, for three tree form camellias.)

    If you develop a plant list before developing spaces for those plants, it's likely the plan will become somewhat of a hodge-podge, trying to squeeze plants in where they are not really the best choices ... or by trying to squeeze too much variety into the scene. Need, to-scale, base plan first. Since your yard is a simple rectangle, it would be easy to draw. While software will not really help it become a better plan, it may make erasing easier. If you have Microsoft Paint, add "rulers" and "gridlines" in the "view" menu and you have a basic 1" = 10' scaled piece of "paper" waiting for your drawing.

  • violetwest
    9 years ago

    Late to the party, but I agree that you need to start with analyzing your uses first. Your specific plant lists are way down the line in importance.

    So, you like looking at nature, relaxing in a hammock, watching hummingbirds.

    So, you need to provide for your dog(s)

    So, you need shade or privacy, or whatever else.

    Start by making a list of how you will use the space. Then start looking at inspiration pictures. There are so many -- Pinterest is a great one. Your local library is a great resource for landscape design books. Look, and Look, and Look.

    With that big a space, you need to divide it up. Putting in walls and hedges and other barriers to define use areas doesn't make the yard smaller-- they make it more intimate and useful.

    Then work on the practicalities -- what hardscape will fill your needs/uses? Do you need low voltage lighting for safety and accents? What about water -- water saving, drainage, and irrigation?

    Once you have all the areas planned out -- THEN start your plant collections.

  • PRO
    Yardvaark
    9 years ago

    "With that big a space, you need to divide it up." Not sure why you think that, VW. I would consider dividing, or not, to be a product of overall objectives. When I think of compartmentalized rooms, I think of Ryan Gainey's garden in Atlanta. There must be a least a dozen rooms, most of which can't be seen from the others. It's a delight to visit to be sure, with so many surprises, but it's also a much higher maintenance place than a single open space would be. A larger, unified space more easily lends itself to a grand vision. But it depends on needs and desires of the user. I think the average landscape user is inclined to do less work than more and is likely to be content with enjoying a singular view from the patio without making excursions into the plantings. A singular "room" also feels more spacious than one which is subdivided. I would call it the default, to be split up as need and desire warrants. Just my two cents.

  • violetwest
    9 years ago

    good points. I think it depends on what he puts there. Large expanses of unbroken yard and sward don't appeal to me much; I prefer more intimate spaces. Good thing my yard is so small ;)

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Yaardvark,

    I would prefer being able to view things from my porch. I also plan to plant the other trees soon, since "time is a wasting". I would imagine trees are not something I have to wait on, since I do know I will want the shade and they should be spaced properly. I will talk to my landscaper about widening the foundation bed when I talk to him. They've treated me very well and love dealing with them. However, you folks really help in so many ways, that my landscaper cannot in the time we have to discuss. I REALLY appreciate all of everyone's time and help!

  • PRO
    Yardvaark
    9 years ago

    Joe, we are probably on somewhat different pages. I consider trees to be major elements so getting them in the proper place is key to the long term success of the space. It's not just a matter of spacing, but of several factors. I suspected at first viewing your yard that some trees are not where they would best be. But I can't comment on it until you have a bed layout. I would be more in a rush to get to the drawing table than to planting trees. They can be planted all winter. If you water them next summer, they can be planted all summer. Planning is what needs to happen now.

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    In all honesty, this was originally intended to provide shade for my dog's Lupus and to be able to start collecting Camellias. The cherry Blossum in the southeast corner is coming down, as it is dying. I figured placing two trees in the circular shape, between each side elm and the rear center elm would be good, with something closer to the house as well...on the sides. Didnt want this to be a gardener's delight, but a piece of nature I can relax in with the benefits above. If I decided to add more later, then great. After going to Kyoto Japan, then buying some of my own camellias, I just fell in love. I did want to ensure I picked the proper locations, such as what side for winter protection, etc or find out if I am supposed to plant something (not sure what) to break the wind and early morning sun that can melt frost too quickly and turn petals to mush.

    So, the elms are just flat out misplaced, or were you focusing on the dead corner tree, or just would've chosen a different location personally?

    Joe

  • PRO
    Yardvaark
    9 years ago

    Frequently, there is a correlation between landscape beds and tree locations. Maybe you're not thinking to divide the yard between lawn and bed, or dividing the yard between sun and shade. Sounds like landscape objectives are subordinate to Camellia gardening.

  • emmarene9
    9 years ago

    I love Camellias and would love to collect them. Since you described what you want as a Nature Preserve I think you will want to look at a naturalized setting as opposed to specimen plants grown in a grid formation. They look best in groups of three of the same plant. Like three Yuletides in a row or triangle shape.I also think you could add more camellias by putting the smaller types in front of the taller type. I choose to grow my plants away from the fence or house by three or four feet. When the plants are mature I still want to be able to sidle through them when needed. I think you need to anticipate that one day you will need access to the fence or wall of the house for repairs and painting and whatever else could occur. I also did it because my dogs liked to patrol the fence line. By the way, never plant anything in a dog trail. I think you have enough trees. You will want a little sun area because hummers love a lot of sun loving plants. Bees too.
    I am thinking of ways to shade certain areas with that shade cloth they use in nurseries. Then I remembered your wind. Is there any way to let the dog go in the garage? He does seem confined to the patio area. I hope you give him attention after the sun goes down, It seems to be his only time for play. It is just so sad. I wish I could help.

  • catkim
    9 years ago

    Ah, Kyoto, your source of inspiration. I have a trip to Japan planned which will include 3 to 4 days in Kyoto, really looking forward to it. The Japanese are such masterful gardeners. If you think of those gardens you saw, or refer back to photos, closely examine the flow of paths, the framed views, the placement of plants and trees. Note the details -- a big stone on the ground with a depression in it for a birdbath and moss growing at its base, the red gates, the shoji screens and their translucent grids, the stone pathways, the repetition of small round stones, the serene greenery, the hush in the pines and bamboo. Let your mind's eye place those elements in your garden.

    If you will view all from the patio, use the patio and its cover to frame your view in a purposeful way. You don't need to literally make it Japanese, but give the viewer hints. For example, add an extra horizontal beam (purely decorative) below the top of your patio roof. Space it maybe 5 inches below the top, enough to see a big gap of sunlight, but not so low you'll bump your head. Paint all the beams and posts that brilliant red color. Or if you can't deal with red, a dark gray. No shoji screens? Salvage a couple of old french doors -- the kind with many panes of glass. Paint the doors to match your posts and beams, and hang them horizontally from the side beams. I know, weird. I get weird creative ideas sometimes. Why all the fuss about the patio/porch area? It's the frame to your garden; the entrance to set the mood, and the visual frame, as around a painting.

    To attract wildlife, you must have water in the garden. That could be as simple as a birdbath tucked into your camellias, or as complicated as a small reflecting pond. Your dogs will appreciate the water, too. Even the simplest water feature will give you a focal point to attract the eye, and will enhance your camelia arrangment, because what enchanted you in Kyoto was the garden, not purely the camellia collection. Think of your garden as you might consider the composition of a painting: light and shadow, form and movement, subject, background, and foreground.

    How exciting for you to begin a new and purposeful garden not only for your own enjoyment, but also for the health of your dogs. Great story. Keep us posted on developments, no matter which direction you choose to go.

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Catkim, I will have to share some of the pictures. They aren't speciman pictures per say, but I tried to capture the setting and mood. It was a very spiritual place to be. Wish I was allowed to take pictures inside where the shoguns resided.

    I found a site while looking for ideas/inspiration, which has some really awesome pictures. While there is no way the elms are goin to be moved, I will at least attempt to create different garden 'rooms' or areas. That was really amazing, some of the pictures. I will definitely need for the elms to mature more for the whole yard, but I can't do it all at once anyway. Will start taking the formality away from the straight camellia bed along the fence, maybe curve it towards the yard center (while curving oupward about halfway down the bed, towards the backyard. Also plan to change up the foundation bed, as was said...the shrubs are too close to the house anyway. I'd love to add some sort of pool, maybe with a weeping maple...more sun tolerant variety (Chantilly lace, crimson queen, tamukeyama, etc. My landscaper want me to ride with him to the nursery and pick out the maples I like, as his wholesaler has a huge selection.

    Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.Swmogardens.com

  • josephene_gw
    9 years ago

    Why not arbors? Vines on the arbors and fence?
    Arbors to provide shade for your dog. Honeysuckles for hummingbirds.
    Morning glories too.
    Trees are great but take time to provide shade.
    Josephene

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    Yaardvark - If you're still up to giving opinions, I ditched the landscaper, gave the shed to my mother since hers was falling apart and am even up to starting over completely (moving or removing Elms as needed). You had mentioned the bones of my yard and a stop by the local nursery and a quick design lesson with the owner, at his drafting table with some onion paper, it really helped me understand what you meant. Since that she'd is gone, the yard looks much larger and I have more usable space as well. I'd like to start deciding where things need to go, with where the bubbles need to be and such. Guess I need to decide where they will be (one is near the corner where the ornamental cherry is and figured another could start near where the leftmost elm is looking off the porch...and continue back and swing around. Anywho...wanted to resurrect this thread. Any specific pics you'd like to see since the shed is now gone? I found I'm not real good at designing.
  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    I took some pics a minute ago, since the snow finally melted out back for the most part.
  • PRO
    Yardvaark
    9 years ago

    For the most part it seems that you have a blank slate to work with. The new trees were installed in locations prior to the development of a comprehensive plan which means that they could by happenstance be in the right place. Or, they might end up being more useful if they were relocated. One would not know what is best to do with them UNTIL an overall plan is created. So far, the goals (shade for dog and space for camellias) seem vague. Are there other goals such as to screen neighboring properties? How many Camellias will be grown and in what form? ... tree or shrub? It's time to start tightening up goals and to start working things out on paper. Even though you say you're "not good at designing," you'll be able to do some basic organizing with help from the forum. It would be time to create a base plan of the back yard on some graph paper. I recommend printing some from here: virtual graph paper you can print. Use the lightest line weight and 10 lines to the inch as a place to start. In the drawing, show the house, fence, gates and where the existing trees are located. (And any other important feature that we can't see.) Show the patio paving and any walks, but for now, not the patio roof. Once this is done, you'll be faced with answering the questions that have been posed and considering how large to make the lawn vs. how much space to devote to planting bed(s) ... and where they will be. Maybe you could take a crack at this much and post the results...? And have no fear of failure as it won't do you any good.

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    Haven't dropped this, just had another ice storm and been thinking. It appears the field lines for my septic system may be out back, so I've been reading Elms are a no no around them. I've heard pines aren't much of a bother?

    I thought of one thing I want to include, so trying to get a mental picture of how I want things to fit in. Need to find out which big leafed Rhododendrons will work in my area. I was hoping to find some that grew larger than 5 foot and see what worked best...maybe a shady corner or something for a few.
  • junco East Georgia zone 8a
    9 years ago

    I have no specific design advice, but I will encourage you with your interest in camellias and humming and other birds. I have many 50 year old camellias in my yard in Augusta, GA and they are wonderful attractors for birds, especially in winter. They give lots of cover and many small insects gather in the base of the blooms. Please don't use systemic insecticides --they will affect the birds at your plants.

    I'am about to post on your other thread about the privacy screen--and will put in a plug here for the plants in the link I'm going to put over there. I especially like weeping Yaupon Holly.

    Good luck and happy gardening!


  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    Thanks! You folks are probably right about mixing it up, too.

    Man, I'm glad someone shares the Camellia interest, it's like a bug. My three Japonica Black Magic are starting to grow their late Spring buds now and will be their first bloom. The Autumn Mist, which just bloomed in Autumn, are growing their Spring blooms as well!
  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    I cut down the Allee Elms after reading about some of their bad qualities and will be going with Slash x Loblolly hybrids. Starting over yet again.
  • PRO
    Yardvaark
    9 years ago

    When are you going to start developing a scheme on paper?