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Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

Posted by Zena3546 Texas (My Page) on
Sat, Dec 17, 11 at 0:53

Information pertaining to toxicity in dogs from Ivermectin:

Affected Breeds
Approximately three of every four Collies in the United States have the mutant MDR1 gene. The frequency is about the same in France and Australia, so it is likely that most Collies worldwide have the mutation. The MDR1 mutation has also been found in Shetland Sheepdogs (Shelties). Australian Shepherds, Old English Sheepdogs, English Shepherds, German Shepherds, Long-haired Whippets, Silken Windhounds, and a variety of mixed breed dogs.

The only way to know if an individual dog has the mutant MDR1 gene is to have the dog tested. As more dogs are tested, more breeds will probably be added to the list of affected breeds.
Breeds affected by the MDR1 mutation (frequency %)
Breed Approximate Frequency
Australian Shepherd 50%
Australian Shepherd, Mini 50%
Border Collie < 5%
Collie 70 %
English Shepherd 15 %
German Shepherd 10 %
Herding Breed Cross 10 %
Long-haired Whippet 65 %
McNab 30 %
Mixed Breed 5 %
Old English Sheepdog 5 %
Shetland Sheepdog 15 %
Silken Windhound 30 %

Contact Us
Vet. Clinical Pharmacology Laboratory (VCPL)
Washington State University
College of Veterinary Medicine
P.O. Box 609
Pullman, WA 99163-0609
Phone: 509-335-3745
FAX: 509-335-6309
VCPL@vetmed.wsu.edu

Problem Drugs
Many different drugs and drug classes have been reported to cause problems in Collies and other herding breed dogs that carry the MDR1 mutation. We and other researchers have documented the toxicity that occurs with several of these drugs.
Drugs that have been documented to cause problems in dogs with the MDR1 mutation include:
� Acepromazine (tranquilizer and pre-anesthetic agent). In dogs with the MDR1 mutation, acepromazine tends to cause more profound and prolonged sedation. We recommend reducing the dose by 25% in dogs heterozygous for the MDR1 mutation (mutant/normal) and by 30-50% in dogs homozygous for the MDR1 mutation (mutant/mutant).
� Butorphanol (analgesic and pre-anesthetic agent). Similar to acepromazine, butorphanol tends to cause more profound and prolonged sedation in dogs with the MDR1 mutation.We recommend reducing the dose by 25% in dogs heterozygous for the MDR1 mutation (mutant/normal) and by 30-50% in dogs homozygous for the MDR1 mutation (mutant/mutant).
� Emodepside (Profender�)-is a deworming drug approved for use in cats only in the U.S., but is approved for use in dogs in some other countries. Use of this drug in dogs with the MDR1 mutation has resulted in neurological toxicity.
� Erythromycin. Erythromycin may cause neurological signs in dogs with the MDR1 mutation. A mutant/mutant collie exhibited signs of neurological toxicity after receiving erythromycin. After withdrawal of the drug, the dogs neurological signs resolved. There were no other potential causes of neurological toxicity identified in the dog.
� Ivermectin (antiparasitic agent). While the dose of ivermectin used to prevent heartworm infection is SAFE in dogs with the mutation (6 micrograms per kilogram), higher doses, such as those used for treating mange (300-600 micrograms per kilogram) will cause neurological toxicity in dogs that are homozygous for the MDR1 mutation (mutant/mutant) and can cause toxicity in dogs that are heterozygous for the mutation (mutant/normal).
� Loperamide (ImodiumTM; antidiarrheal agent). At doses used to treat diarrhea, this drug will cause neurological toxicity in dogs with the MDR1 mutation. This drug should be avoided in all dogs with the MDR1 mutation.
� Selamectin, milbemycin, and moxidectin (antaparasitic agents). Similar to ivermectin, these drugs are safe in dogs with the mutation if used for heartworm prevention at the manufacturer's recommended dose. Higher doses (generally 10-20 times higher than the heartworm prevention dose) have been documented to cause neurological toxicity in dogs with the MDR1 mutation.
� Vincristine, Vinblastine, Doxorubicin (chemotherapy agents). Based on some published and ongoing research, it appears that dogs with the MDR1 mutation are more sensitive to these drugs with regard to their likelihood of having an adverse drug reaction. Bone marrow suppression (decreased blood cell counts, particulary neutrophils) and GI toxicity (anorexia, vomiting, diarrhea) are more likely to occur at normal doses in dogs with the MDR1 mutation. To reduce the likelihood of severe toxicity in these dogs (mutant/normal or mutant/mutant), we recommend reducing the dose by 25-30% and carefully monitoring these patients.
Drugs that are known to be pumped out of the brain by the protein that the MDR1 gene is responsible for producing but appear to be safely tolerated by dogs with the MDR1 mutation:
� Cyclosporin (immunosuppressive agent). While we know that cyclosporin is pumped by P-glycoprotein (the protein encoded by the MDR1 gene), we have not documented any increased sensitivity to this drug in dogs with the MDR1 mutation compared to "normal" dogs. Therefore, we do not recommend altering the dose of cyclosporin for dogs with the MDR1 mutation, but we do recommend therapeutic drug monitoring.
� Digoxin (cardiac drug). While we know that digoxin is pumped by P-glycoprotein (the protein encoded by the MDR1 gene), we have not documented any increased sensitivity to this drug in dogs with the MDR1 mutation compared to "normal" dogs. Therefore, we do not recommend altering the dose of digoxin for dogs with the MDR1 mutation, but do recommend therapeutic drug monitoring.
� Doxycycline (antibacterial drug). While we know that doxycycline is pumped by P-glycoprotein (the protein encoded by the MDR1 gene), we have not documented any increased sensitivity to this drug in dogs with the MDR1 mutation compared to "normal" dogs. Therefore, we do not recommend altering the dose of doxycycline for dogs with the MDR1 mutation.
Drugs that may be pumped out by the protein that the MDR1 is responsible for producing, but appear to be safely tolerated by dogs with the MDR1 mutation:
� Morphine, buprenorphine, fentanyl (opioid analgesics or pain medications). We suspect that these drugs are pumped by P-glycoprotein (the protein encoded by the MDR1 gene) in dogs because they have been reported to be pumped by P-glycoprotein in people, but we are not aware of any reports of toxicity caused by these drugs in dogs with the MDR1 mutation. We do not have specific dose recommendations for these drugs for dogs with the MDR1 mutation.
The following drugs have been reported to be pumped by P-glycoprotein (the protein encoded by the MDR1) in humans, but there is currently no data stating whether they are or are not pumped by canine P-glycoprotein. Therefore we suggest using caution when administering these drugs to dogs with the MDR1 mutation.
� Domperidone
� Etoposide
� Mitoxantrone
� Ondansetron
� Paclitaxel
� Rifampicin
There are many other drugs that have been shown to be pumped by human P-glycoprotein (the protein encoded by the MDR1 gene), but data is not yet available with regard to their effect in dogs with the MDR1 mutation.
� Use caution if administering ivermectin to susceptible breeds

In dogs with MDR 1 gene mutation, the following drugs should be avoided or used with caution:
� Ivermectin
� Selamectin
� Milbemycin
� Moxidectin
� Loperamide
� Acepromazine
� Butorphanol
� Vincristine
� Vinblastine
� Doxorubicin

Copied and pasted. They also do the MDR1 Mutation testing for dogs. 1-4 is like 70 dollars each.

With all that has been posted reading everyones threads, i have been doing more studying on Ivermectin in breeds and such. the above breeds are the ones mostly affected...but ANY dog can be affected by the MDR1 gene. i say that because, i have a full blood pit bull that is Heart worm positive. i just rescued her. i began her treatment of heartworms after a 3 week regimen of doxycycline twice a day. then after the 3 weeks, gave her .06 of ivermectin. within about 6 hours,i had a VERY sick dog. she had the allergic reaction toxicity of the drug. she almost died. in 30+ yrs, a man in the dog rescue world had never ever had any issue like this arise nor had the vet. i think this was a very unique situation, but this could happen to anyone. All of your calculations of dosage on monthly preventative is the recommended dose for treating a dog with heartworms. i am NOW having to revert back to purchasing heartgard because the dosage is ALOT lower but yet should be safe for her. I also have another pit mix that i am treating and has had ZERO issues with it. also treated her for mange. for two weeks, every other day giving ivermectin at her weight of 57 lbs and .06. So I am confused to the calculations as to what you give a dog that is not hearworm positive as opposed to one that is..
Can anyone clear this up for me?

i have three small dogs i want to start using ivermectin with but need specific dosing. one is 17 lbs, 20 lbs, and 22 lbs. doxie, doxie mix, and schnauzer. Thanks

Here is a link that might be useful: Washington State University Testing


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

Very good post, though I didn't read & absorb the entire thing I will admit, though I did a looooong time ago. Everyone should be aware of Ivermectin & the potential of reactions.

Ivermec is the active ingredient in heartguard, if I'm not mistaken. It seems to me if it was a true allergic reaction to the ivermec, even the slightest dose would cause the reaction to occur again??? I know that is common with many allergies, though they can vary in intensity.

Take your dogs dosage that he does well on with the heartguard, convert it, and calculate it out for the doseage you will use for Ivermec. I had my vet do our calculations for heartworm prevention on our Pyrs, and the 87% Ivermec sheep drench works out to 1cc/100lbs. It would be different if I used the 1%. My vet was okay with it, but then again she isn't in it for just the money she knows she's not getting the heartworm sales from me so she is better off to assist me in my goal than to lose me as a client.

Be careful with your calculations and good luck.

Brendasue


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

WSU is saying the dose in Heartgard is ok for allergic dogs. i am like you..I question it. but my vet also gave me the Heartgard for her as well. so i will give it to her in a few days and watch her like a hawk.

I was wandering about the sheep drench as opposed to the 1%. is the sheep drench weaker? I have the 1%.

After having this scare with the pit, i went online and started researching this. everything i came across...reverted me back to Washington state university. So I am going to assume they know what they are talking about. I am also doing one of there tests. It appears they dont have any pit bulls that have had this happen. so mine may be the first. maybe they can learn from this as well. If it helps save a life, i am all for it.


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

No the sheep drench is not as potent, actually there are several different strengths on the market.

I have the sheep drench only because I bought the wrong stuff, so when I use it I make adjustments to get it at a 1% doseage, though for worming goats the margin of safety is a good one, I just need it to be an effective one.

In most cases it isn't critical, but in your case, with a reaction like you explained, it could be very critical when calculating the dose.

Here's hoping the reaction was just a coincidence. And I'm glad you are opting to have the tests performed so you know for sure.

Brendasue


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

Well i had her tested and she does not have the MDR1 gene. with that said she DID have an allergic reaction to the Ivermectin so i put her on Heartgard since the ivermectin dose is so much lower. She has done fine with it.


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

That's interesting.
Ivermec 1% is Ivermec 1%, wether given straight or in the Heartguard or a mixed concoction some mix up. Sounds like your calculations were incorrect based on your dogs weight or the reaction was from something else.
Definately strange


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

You get alot less of a dose of Ivermectin in Heartgard. i know how much to give, i give it to my other dogs all the time. 62 to 72 pounds: 0.6 cc....and when i gave her a dose, i actually gave her a lower dose since I didnt know her exact body weight. After speaking with WSU, they said that she very well could have had a reaction to it and not have the MDR1 gene. As with Collies and others that have the MDR1 gene, they cannot have the Ivermectin treatment but is ok with taking Heartgard as stated from WSU.

Heartgard dosage is a minimum of 6 mcg/kg (2.72 mcg/lb). Note that dogs at the lower end of the weight ranges get twice this much, or even more for very small dogs. Ivermectin has a very wide safety range; dosage for dogs with demodex is 300 mcg/kg, and this amount may be given daily over weeks or months. It's important not to underdose your dog, which may not be effective at preventing heartworms. Always round up when calculating dosage.

Heartgard Blue for dogs up to 25 pounds has 68 mcg ivermectin
Heartgard Green for dogs 26-50 pounds has 136 mcg ivermectin
Heartgard Brown for dogs 51-100 pounds has 272 mcg ivermectin

Here is a link that might be useful: Ivermectin dosages and toxicity


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

I posted it in the other thread, and I'll post it again here.

I've been told by 2 different vets that when I use the Ivomec cattle injectable for my dogs for HW prevention, they get one-tenth of a cc per 10 pounds of dog weight. A 100 lb dog would be 1 cc. This has worked very well for us.


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

That is absolutely correct. I had a vet also tell me the same thing BUT it was for treating heartworms. and the correct dose was given to my pit bull as well but she had a reaction to it. It was bad. so we wont do that anymore. my other pit gets the ivermectin and has not had one problem whatsoever. in fact, i had her retested Friday and her heartworms are almost gone. it was a VERY faint reading. Started treating her in July.

I guess my original question was....what do you give to a dog that is HW neg? The same dosage or a lower dose of the Ivermectin?


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

Bruglover has it correct. 1cc/100 lbs is for PREVENTION, so it would be given to a HW negative dog that is not of herding genetics. That is for the 1% Ivermectin, there are different concentrations available.

A HW positive dog would receive a lower dose to start, because you want the worm die-off to be slow, then you would move up to the regular doseage. Same protocol as you would do with a dog or other animal that has a tapeworm overload-you don't want to clog things up creating a secondary problem while treating the first.

Every vet you speak to, as with every owner you speak with, will have a different opinion and protocol, and every dog conceivably could have a different reaction to any drug given.
If your dogs have a reaction or you feel uncomfortable with the protocol many home-dosers give, then the best recommendation would be to follow your vet's advice and not try to treat yourself (though the active ingredient amount if calculated properly would be the same, minus the huge expense of heartguard).

Brendasue


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

There is also a protocol of giving doxycycline to HW positive dogs, along with a somewhat higher dose of ivermectin (and some say to give that weekly). Apparently the doxy has some activity against part of the HW - makes it impossible to breed, iirc. Some humane orgs are using this method as a slow-kill, but faster kill than simply ivermectin.

I would definitely ask my vet as to how best administer anything like this. Doxycycline, being an antibiotic, needs to be given correctly, also.


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

The vet that gave me a protocol for treatment of heartworms recommended the dosage one-tenth of a cc per 10 pounds of dog weight. FIRST he had me giving doxy 20mg twice a day. for a 60 lb dog for 3 weeks. (most vets say 1 month on then off for a month or two, then another month on) but this vet said 3 weeks. Then start the Ivermectin. What I have done was compromise that. I give doxy for 3 weeks, start the Ivermectin..then after a month or two, I do 3 more weeks of doxy.

So it sounds like the dosage of Ivermectin is the same whether HW+ or not. I know I started my pit on her treatment in July and the heartworms are almost gone. the test was very faint. so 9 months and almost HW free. Thats pretty good.
I just rescued another pit and she is also HW + as well. She has been here 3 1/2 months. She is the one that had the allergic reaction to Ivermectin. So she is now on Heartgard. I know the dosage is alot lower in Heartgard (Heartgard Brown for dogs 51-100 pounds has 272 mcg ivermectin, so it will take her longer to get over the Heartworms but this is the safest way to treat her.

FYI....
Research has led to the discovery of a parasite called Wolbachia that lives symbiotically inside heartworms. Studies indicate that this parasite contributes to the adverse effects of both heartworm infection and heartworm treatment, including inflammation, embolism and allergic reaction. Treatment with doxycycline to kill the Wolbachia parasite weakens the heartworms and makes them unable to reproduce, lessens their adverse effects on the body and greatly reduces the chance of adverse reaction during heartworm treatment.

ALSO..there is debate on when to spay/neuter the dog when they have heartworms. I myself had MY vet spay the dog AFTER giving the doxy but before the Heartgard. That is usually a good plan since most rescue dogs need a home ASAP and if they are spayed/neutured, they can be adopted sooner. If waiting till AFTER you have treated them for HW's, then they may be with you for awhile. That is my opinion. Here is some info on some different situations on how to treat and when to treat for Heartworms when needing to be spayed/neutered as well....

Stories From the Front: Treating Rescue Dogs for Heartworm

Rescue groups, especially those located in the South, often deal with large numbers of heartworm-positive dogs. Darryl Bitter is the dog coordinator for the Frisco Humane Society, an all-breed rescue near Dallas, Texas. She estimates that 30 percent of the adult dogs that they rescue are heartworm-positive. A colleague who does Boxer rescue in the same area says that 75 percent of their rescues test positive for heartworms.

"In the last 18 months we have treated 20 dogs who were heartworm-positive," says Bitter. The dogs were treated with Immiticide, either the standard two injections in two days, or the split-dose schedule two, four or six weeks apart, depending on the health of the dog. The dogs were confined to a crate for a month following each injection, and taken outside only on leash. Prednisone and antibiotics were given during the treatment.

"Four of these dogs had bad reactions to the shedding of the worms, coughing blood and unable to breathe," says Bitter. "Typically these reactions take place two to three weeks after the injection. All four dogs were hospitalized and placed in oxygen tents for at least two days. Immediate treatment is required as soon as the dog has this reaction, otherwise she could die."

Two of the four bad experiences she's witnessed stand out particularly, says Bitter. "Bear, a Great Pyrenees, had a particularly bad reaction. His foster person came home to find pools of blood in his crate and Bear was coughing blood. Fortunately she was able to rush him to the vet and he survived after a week in hospital. The other, Dusty, a small Heeler mix, just collapsed as her foster was taking her outside on the leash. She was rushed to the vet as well and spent three days in hospital. Fortunately, she also recovered."

Juli Thompson, who lives in Central Florida, has put two dogs thru heartworm treatment. The first dog, Oakley, was a year old when adopted. She was treated with Immiticide using the split-dose schedule, one month apart. She was kept crated and walked on leash, and recovered without a problem.

Thompson's other dog, Bo, was five or six years old at the time of his adoption, and had a more severe infestation. "He was coughing at any exertion. He went through the same treatment and then had to spend almost two months being hand-walked and low-key because the vet was very worried about clots. He survived and is still alive and very happy. He still coughs after heavy exercise due to damage done to his heart."

Another issue that may come up with rescue dogs is when to schedule spay/neuter surgery if they are heartworm positive. Heartworm infection increases the risk of anesthesia. Although there is less risk with low worm burdens, it is usually considered best to treat the dogs for heartworm first, before proceeding with surgery six weeks or more following the final heartworm treatment.

"Dogs with pulmonary arteries blocked by adult heartworms are at greater risk for anesthetic death at the time of surgery or during recovery. The adult worms are effected by the anesthetic and will plug up distal branches of the pulmonary artery particularly the right branch," says J. Theis, DVM, a specialist in heartworm from the University of California at Davis.

Whenever heartworm treatment is delayed, for whatever reason, it is usually a good idea to start the dog on monthly Heartgard in the meantime, which will help destroy the microfilariae and weaken the adult worms. Because there is a small chance of an adverse reaction to this treatment, it should only be done on a day when you are home to observe the dog and seek treatment if necessary. Do not use Interceptor (milbemycin oxime), which is much more dangerous to a dog with heartworms, due to its greater efficacy against microfilariae.


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

Oh let me say one thing. I think if you have a VERY serious case of heartworms, then yes wait to spay/neuter the dog. It may not live through the heartworms or treatment anyway. and i suggest a dog that is a high positive, take different measures for treatment than the slow kill. maybe start the slow kill treatment like we have been discussing..then after a couple months, do the injections. Either way, the dog is at risk of heart damage or dying. Everything I have been discussing here has been with a mild case of Heartworms. No (or very little coughing), NO breathing difficulty, NO loss of consciousness, & NO difficulty in exercise.


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

I am a retired Medical Microbiologist form the CDC and a Part time Infectious disease specialist at a local University. This is in response to the post about people using Invemectin and drug resistance. It is true that the use of chemicals to kill ANY pest is leading to their resistance to that chemical but the majority of people to blamce are the farmers who use aniobiotics to prevent diasease rather than wait until they see a sign of disease. To creticize people who use Imvermentin at the reported concentrations is not called for in my opinion. Perhaps some people would not e able to afford treatments w/o the Invemectin form Jeffers and other supply houses. The post made it sound like if you use it as directed than there will be no resistance. THAT IS UNTRUE. Resistance will develop even if you give your dogs Heartguard. That is most likely where the Invenectin heartwomrs are coming form. But one thing I did not see was the recommendation that you should use Doxyxcycline orally also with Ivernectin. Hearworms are now known to carry a germ that is benificial to them. It promotes the adult heart worms to form a clot in the major hear valves when they die. So doxycycline and Ivermection is the best route


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

Hi Jonakitaman, thank you for your input on that. I agree...I wished the farmers didnt use so many chemicals either.
This thread was in discussion of how much to give to a dog for every month use for a preventative as well as treatment for heartworms. Is the dosage the same? Thats the question. We DID discuss giving Doxy(on March 15th..stated above.) And yes that is part of the protocol for treating Heartworms. I think alot of these vets out here do not want you to use this way of treating heartworms. They want to give the injections and charge you more. I myself refuse to do that on a mild-moderate case of heartworms. in fact, my vet got really mad when he found out what i was doing. Needless to say, i immediately changed vets. And you are right, alot of people cannot afford to treat a dog so they end up giving up the dog or the dog suffers from lack of treatment. and i think this way is alot easier on the dog. They dont have to be confined to a crate either. Of course always watch them closely after giving the Ivermection as they can still have a reaction to it. And as i had posted above also that my pit bull i rescued has heartworms and i gave her the recommended dose of Ivermectin for her size and within 6 hours, she had a severe reaction. i have three small dogs and was wanting to know if the dosage for them is the same as if you were treating them for heartworms at the dosage stated above. i have only given it to large dogs. wanted to make sure i didnt screw up. so any input you may have would be great!


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

I was told by vet about the remedy for heartworm treatment using Ivermectin and Doxicyline. I went to the local Feed store who told me he treated his own dog with Ivermectin and the Doxicyline. They sell the Ivermectin (not in injectable form) but don't sell the Doxicyline. Can anyone tell me dosage for the Ivermectin and Doxicyline. I can find the Doxicyline on line in Canada, I believe? I have a 90 lb. Doberman tested at Stage 1.


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

to jealsop60:

Using the slow-kill method (no Immiticide), then I recommend giving normal doses of Heartgard (ivermectin) monthly along with doxycycline at the rate of 10 mg per kilogram of body weight (about 5 mg per pound) twice a day.
i myself used two 10mg pills morning and two 10 mg at night for my 60 lb dog for 3-4 weeks. wait two months and repeat. thats all on the doxy.

The Ivermectin when purchased is in a bottle for injectables..BUT you do NOT inject it. You pull it from the bottle using a needle and syringe (also purchased from Feed store)draw out the needed amount..have another syringe (no needle attached) turned facing up..squirt the ivermectin into the one pointing up. (make sure you have the syringe stopper pulled back a little ways for room to put the ivermectin in it). the recommended dose for Ivermectin is .01 per 10 lbs. if you are unsure how to measure..go back to feed store and let them show you..or ask your vet to show you. (PLEASE measure correctly. i have heard horrible stories on people giving a couple syringes of it at a time...killed the dog unfortunately) Anyway You do that monthly. Watch the dog carefully within the first 24 hours..especially the first 6-8 hours for any sort of reaction. According to the breed of your dog, it could be toxic. if it is a herding breed(scroll to very top and read the section of herding dogs affected and should not be given Ivermectin), then you would use the Heartgard Plus monthly only..with the doxy.

Here they are again on herding breeds that cannot be given the Ivermectin.

Australian Shepherd 50%
Australian Shepherd, Mini 50%
Border Collie < 5%
Collie 70 %
English Shepherd 15 %
German Shepherd 10 %
Herding Breed Cross 10 %
Long-haired Whippet 65 %
McNab 30 %
Mixed Breed 5 %
Old English Sheepdog 5 %
Shetland Sheepdog 15 %
Silken Windhound 30 %

When treating the dog, i do the doxy first, then when i am through with it, i start the Ivermectin. The doxy kills the Wolbachia. Give the ivermectin monthly at the same time..just like you would Heartgard. (NOTE: I give it to mine straight..but when doing that, shoot it to the very back of the mouth cause it tastes horrible. i usually give a treat right after to wash that nasty taste out of the mouth..LOL
If you have no reactions after a couple times..you can also do the same dose every week or every other week till they are negative. It will speed up the process. STILL watch for reactions. This treatment is NOT recommended when the dog is at Stage 3 or 4. It could cause them to throw a worm. They need to be in the care of a vet for treatment.

**Always use caution when giving ANY medication to an animal. Watch carefully for any reactions atleast up to 72 hours. there is always a possibility of something going wrong. always be on alert and ready to go to ER or your Regular Animal Hospital.

I am in no way a Dr or vet of any kind. I am just a volunteer with a rescue and the rescues vet recommended this treatment and has had great success. After 9 months of treating one of my dogs, her last HW test was VERY Faint. so they are almost gone. I call that a success when alot of the time they tell you it can take 18-24 months.

I am also about to start her on Hawthorne. i am into natural herbs so this was the recommended herb.

Hawthorne-Strengthening the heart muscle and improving circulation, hawthorn helps stave off congestive heart failure in senior dogs (and people), and tones the tickers of younger dogs who've survived heartworm disease.

EVERY VET HAS A DIFFERENT WAY OF DOING THIS. YOU WILL READ AND HEAR ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT WAYS..BUT THIS ONE WORKS FOR ME AND I AM COMFORTABLE WITH IT.

also there is a website that has answered alot of my questions and helped guide me with this..

http://www.dogaware.com/health/heartworm.html#wolbachia

Hope this helps...

Here is a link that might be useful: Reply to jealsop60 on dosing


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

According to Merial Heartgard info for the smallest chew with 68mcg of ivermectin for dogs up to 25lbs, a 1lb puppy gets a dose of 68mcg/lb on the high end of the dosage scale and a 25lb dog gets the 2.72mcg/lb dose which is minimum dose.

One dog gets 25 times larger dose per lb than another!
Obviously there is a wide safety margin with this drug/poison.

With IVOMEC injection for cattle and swine, a straight pull from the vial with a 1mL syringe and you will have 10,000mcg of ivermectin.

So the vets' recommendations from the above posts of 1cc(mL)/100lb equates to 100mcg/lb. Almost the same dose as cattle.

Terrierman's http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2008/05/billion-dollar-heartworm-scam.html dose equals out to 12.5mcg/lb. A bit on the lower side of the range.

I just spent all morning researching the different doses people were giving their dogs. Whew!

Now I just need to decide how strong of a dose I want to give my 4 month old 4lb and 9lb mini rat terrier pups.

I assume a larger dose would help deter any chance of developing mange and kill intestinal worms and probably piss off any fleas too!

So in a nutshell the safe range to dose dogs would be between 2.72 and 100mcg/lb!


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

To corn_squeezer,

OH no...i havent even finished reading the link you posted and there is alot in it that is wrong information.
For one, that article is 2 yrs old. also..there are ALOT of heartworm cases here in Texas. nearly half of all dogs coming out of shelters are heartworm positive. All medications are toxic to some point. you have to weigh the odds. heart damage or the Heartgard/Ivermectin. another..whos to say how long the dog has had heartworms. no one can say for sure three months so thats bad information right there. ALSO...giving a dog that has the MDR1 mutation gene should NOT..I repeat...SHOULD NOT be given interceptor. You can scroll to the top of this page and read all about it from WSU. Here, i will post that again. The third one down is interceptor. and the safe dosage to give a dog with the MDR1 Gene is in the heartgard. The dosage is so minute, it will not hurt them. the heargard will just take longer to kill them than the straight Ivermectin.

In dogs with MDR 1 gene mutation, the following drugs should be avoided or used with caution:
� Ivermectin
� Selamectin
� Milbemycin
� Moxidectin
� Loperamide
� Acepromazine
� Butorphanol
� Vincristine
� Vinblastine
� Doxorubicin

Go to the Washington State university page and read it there...read more on the MDR1 gene and what cannot be given.There are many other sites that tell you NOT to give that to a herding dog with the MDR1 Gene.
while i DONT disagree with the vets trying to make a buck..let me tell you..they are not making money off of you by just selling you doxy. and you buying the Ivermectin from a feed store, they dont get that either. but when they want to do the injections, thats when they rape you when it comes to money plus puts the dogsd life at risk and they have to stay crated for a month to two months. no reason to do that to a dog. alot of vets will not tell you to treat a dog with ivermectin and doxy because they dont make any money off of it. a vet that WILL tell you, is there for the dogs.
to go back to the Vet scamming you..they ARE definitely scamming you on yearly shots. those are NOT needed. although Rabies is mandatory by law..the others are not. according to your dogs activities, as to where he goes, if he is being boarded at any time..etc etc..determines what shots are truly needed. shots can cause cancer and other things. like bordatella. that is not needed unless you will be boarding your dog...like a boarding facility, a vets office if staying for surgery etc., grooming salon etc....This info below taken from that page is wrong as well. the past 2 yrs we have had some exceptionally strange weather in every state. Heartworm preventative is needed in most states yr round. What is correct is the temps. he is correct on that. once the temp drops, your safe for a certain amount of time.

Quote from your link:

In most of the country, only seasonal heartworm "prevention" is needed.
The short story here is that heartworm is a kind of nematode (dirofilaria immitis) spread by mosquitoes (and only by mosquitoes). The lifecycle of the nematode involves six stages, and a dog can get infected with heartworm only if two of these stages are fully completed inside the body of the mosquito, and those stages can only be completed inside the body of the mosquito if the temperature stays above 57 degrees for at least 45 days straight, both day and night. If the temperature drops below 57 degrees even once during that 45-day period, the lifecycle of the nematode is broken, and heartworm cannot be transmitted to your dog.


Anywsy, i am also not in agreement with there dosing on the doxy. and i really dont need to read that any further. it is alot of bad information. i am not sure who that is that wrote that but they need to get up to date with todays numbers. you may want to continue your research. Here's a link you can read:

http://www.dogaware.com/health/heartworm.html#wolbachia


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

I was only concerned with finding the right dose to give my dogs as a preventative.
I've been dog-free since 2005 after my GSD reached her expiration date and there just wasn't this kind of info available around the internet like today. So I have two 3-1/2 month old pups and am re-educating myself on doggy care.
I just wanted to share my findings here on the range of dose size per pound. I mean 2.72mcg and 100mcg is quite a span I think.
I just used terriererman's blog as an example of what some folks dose their dogs at since that is where I learned of using Ivomec to save $$. After seeing his political views I have to take everything he writes with a grain of salt!


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

yes i am not in agreement with him at all. Good that you are doing your research. sure dont need any accidents.

For a puppy, i would not give a puppy Ivermectin. i would put them on Heartgard for atleast 6 months. i read somewhere it is not to be given to puppies under a certain age..I am thinking its 6 months...but i cant remember so dont quote me on that. You may want to research that one for sure. I have small older dogs but i am still scared about giving them any since they are so small. they range from 17-25 lbs.

As for my dog that is almost HW-....I am going to back off on the amount to half of what I am giving her.

Heartgard Brown for dogs 51-100 pounds has 272 mcg ivermectin

if i am reading this correctly..(and i am lousy in math) I am reading this as almost .03 or 3 tenths. I have been giving her .06 or 6 tenths. she weighs 65 lbs. That was the instructions given to me for treating heartworms. and looking at heartgard dosage..it appears half is what i can give her and still be protected.


Heartgard Blue for dogs up to 25 pounds has 68 mcg ivermectin

This one i cannot break down since it is so small. its not even a tenth if i am thinking correctly. and the reason I have not given the small dogs any. not sure what the dosage is in a syringe.


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

If heart guard is the same as the ivermectin and you are saying not to give the ivermectin till after 6 months of age doesnt it stand to reason that the heartguard should also not be given till that point ? ..

I recently got a new puppy he is 9 weeks old took him to the vet yesterday and he said we will talk heartguard at his last puppy visit when he is about 4 to 5 months of age .... That said i intend to use ivermectin oral ... I buy it from a man online his site is called jr enterprises and he titrates it down to a .05 % for dogs and its sold for 25 dollars free shipping and will last 5, 25 lb dogs 2 years ! It comes with an expiration date of 2 yrs from when u buy it ... I have been using it for my 4 yr old german shepherd for years now and used it for my miniature dachsund of 10 yrs until she passed away 2 months ago...

As a teen i had 2 dalmations and i used to have the ivomec and my dad instructed me onHow to give them monthly injections of it and it worked fine for them that way too ... Glad i can give the stuff orally now tho as it was almost impossible to figure the right dose of the 1% stuff for a 5 pound chiuhauha ! Now with the stuff from jr enterprises it will be easy to figure out the dose for my new chiuhuahua who is currently only 1 lb. 13 oz ... But he will make 3 to 5 pounds as an adult so until he reaches adult status i will prob buy whatever the vet recommends or if he agrees i may go with 1/8 of a ml ... Since it says the dose for 5 to 19 pounds is 1/4 ml ...

Happy dosing


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

Im sorry i quoted that wrong it will last 5, 35 pound dogs 2 years.


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

Just a note: PLEASE be aware of the decimal point in these various concentrations of Ivermectin.

I have yet to use this method, but I am attracted to it because of the immense savings and because I feel manipulated and exploited by the vets and manufacturers for them to be charging as much as they do for the regular heart worm preventative. Do they think we won't know it is important if it isn't 120.00 for six months? Do they not realize that on many budgets this prevents rather than ensures dogs being treated?

That being said, the dosage is tricky if you are not familiar with the divisions of a cc, percent concentrations, etc. I urge you to contact your vet regarding the dosage. If your small animal vet is uncooperative try your local large animal vet, they are usually more familiar with the livestock products anyway and every farm usually has a dog.

The dosage difference between a .08% sheep drench and a 1% injectable concentration is 12.5 TIMES the concentration of ivermectin. That would be like you taking 25 aspirin!

The 1% solution cannot be easily measured/used for average sized dogs without dilution by propylene glycol. Do not use water, as the ivermectin will not evenly disperse, making an accurate diluted measurement impossible.

Higher doses are prescribed for things other than heartworm preventative, i.e. mange, etc short term. But though a fairly safe wormer, Ivermectin's function is as a neurotoxin and I would not want to habitually expose my dogs to that higher dose.

A good dosage explanation is available here http://www.dogaware.com/health/ivomec.html

This link's dosages were well in line with those given to my by my vet. Mine were a little lower because they were calculated for the exact weight of my dogs, (something else I like about doing my own dosage). It also addresses the collie sensitivity.

Good luck and be safe.


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RE: Continuing of Ivermectin Thread

I would wait on the puppy till it is older. With all of this said..I have learned much more on heatworms.
There is a lot of info on this site that explains giving heartworm preventative's. Maybe you will consider stopping all heartworm meds.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Billion Dollar Heartworm Scam


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