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| 2015 will be my 6th summer with fruit trees. The original planting in 2009 was just starting to bear fruit last year. pre-planting soil test results said no soil remediation required. High hopes for 2015!! Slow growth 1st few years was result of inadequate nitrogen due to sandy soil and at least somewhat to inexpert pruning. (both diagnosed with help from this forum!) All trees were mulched with woodchips and refreshed annually. Older chips have decomposed often into stuck together mats of partially decayed wood. Heres the question: with a well established mulch should I be decreasing the nitrogen fertllizer (currently 2 apps per year at rates recommended per inch of trunk thickness). With sandy and very well drained soil should nitrogen (urea) add continue? |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by harvestman 6 (My Page) on Mon, Jan 5, 15 at 19:26
| Measure the need for N by way of relative vigor. I believe it takes 6-8 years for wood chips to begin to dramatically invigorate trees if you are starting with fresh chips. That is just an anecdotal estimate and obviously there are many variables, including climate and type of wood. It requires a soil test that actually incubates the soil to determine the amount of N being released from composted chips if you seek an appraisal beyond what the trees show you. |
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| You should judge adequacy of N apps by looking at the tree. Mainly how much growth you are getting. If that doesn't seem technical enough have a leaf analysis done this summer. I've never seen the need for leaf analysis but do have much experience with nitrogen fertilizer trials of field crops. You've seen what inadequate N looks like. In sandy well drained soil you probably won't see a large excess of growth unless you go overboard with N apps. I like my trees to settle down and grow fruit not wood. I think that improves fruit quality as well. I'd say 12 inches growth on bearing apples. |
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| good advice above...however, do keep in mind that sandy soil not only is nutrient poor (in general), but it holds water in the rootzone poorly. Drought conditions will also limit new growth. |
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- Posted by kokopelli5a (My Page) on Mon, Jan 5, 15 at 21:11
| If your trees aren't bearing fruit yet or are not bearing fruit this year, you can afford to be a bit aggressive with the nitrogen, within reason. My experience is the same as harvestman's: It took 7-8 years for the chips to really change the soil by themselves. |
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| My suggestion would be to only add a thin layer of compost on top of the mulch and do nothing more. The soil created below the mulch should now be rich and produce the natural nutrients your trees need to flourish. Adding nitrogen now may be adding leaf growth and hindering fruit production. Chips vs aged ramial (sp) wood mulch are totally different products and the 7-8 years to breakdown is from someone that doesn't know what they are talking about. JMO. |
This post was edited by dirtguy50 on Mon, Jan 5, 15 at 22:04
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| it takes years and it takes feet, specially in sandy soil. I used to live on pure sand, and one foot of chips, over the years, would just blacken the top 4 inches. Sandy soils particularly benefit from hugelkultur (of course it is too late now), as you do get both water retention and nutrients in a single shot, and within a year or so. |
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- Posted by kokopelli5a (My Page) on Tue, Jan 6, 15 at 0:36
| Gee, dirty guy, I apologize for my seven-year-long hallucination. |
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- Posted by Appleseed70 6 MD (My Page) on Tue, Jan 6, 15 at 1:58
| Oldryder...my opinion is generally the same as everyone else's. Don't decrease recommended nitrogen applications. Wood chips contribute little to soil in the way of N and this is particularly true on a sandy soil like you describe. IMO fireduck makes the best point here. Moisture retention may be the big issue. If you dump a bucket of water at the tree's base in normal summer weather conditions does the water quickly drain away with the top 2" drying quickly ? Is the soil moist under the tree when inserting your finger underneath the chips? One part of me wants to say "slam it with nitrate of soda" but if moisture retention is an issue it will just make matters even worse. BTW...I'm joking about the nitrate of soda....well...sorta. If you are not seeing any vigorous growth whatsoever in non-producing trees after 5 seasons there might be an issue. What is your state and zone oldryder? I'm trying to learn also and getting a read on the climate is paramount in doing so. |
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- Posted by harvestman 6 (My Page) on Tue, Jan 6, 15 at 6:22
| I manage a site with sandbox sand (almost pure sand, anyway). The owner had cleared the previously wooded land and we had unlimited woodchips to use that were already aged for a year or two (and uphill form the planting site). We used about 8 cubic feet of the stuff annually per tree to cover landscape fabric which we lifted every year to mulch again (leaving the rotted ones underneath. He has no irrigation and the trees were bearing age when planted. He's had me install over 100 trees- maybe 70 of them apples. The trees are juiced!. The ample mulch not only negates any water issues not addressed by rain but clearly invigorates the trees a great deal. I stopped mulching them last year after doing it the first 6 or 7. I worry about the excessive vigor a bit, but the quality of the fruit remains high. I believe the sandy soil helps in this regard. The trees did get some urea in the past, but none last year and there was no reduction in vigor, even now that they are competing with mowed turf. I believe the rotting chips are a reservoir that the soil wicks from as it dries out. |
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| everyone, thx for replies. "What is your state and zone oldryder? MN Zone 4 What type of fruit trees are we talking about...what is the rootstock and what is the trunk caliper of these 6 year old trees? Apples, various (snowsweet, paula red, sweet sixteen, honeycrisp, zestar, all on semi-d stock (not sure what specific rootstock as I didn't know enough to ask at that time) approx. 50 trees on a slightly sloping area with sandy soil. very well drained. trunks are 2-4". trunks are wrapped against sun damage. I watered weekly the 1st 2 years and probably should have at least some for 2 more. started adding nitrogen year 3. last 2 winters here were very harsh with late springs. (18) honeycrisp planted spring 2012 in an adjacent area also growing very slowly and those have had nitrogen added. Got a modest number of apples off most 2009 trees last year. A few trees had a lot. Added a crabapple last spring as pollination was also questionable. |
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| everyone, thx for replies. "What is your state and zone oldryder? MN Zone 4 What type of fruit trees are we talking about...what is the rootstock and what is the trunk caliper of these 6 year old trees? Apples, various (snowsweet, paula red, sweet sixteen, honeycrisp, zestar, all on semi-d stock (not sure what specific rootstock as I didn't know enough to ask at that time) approx. 50 trees on a slightly sloping area with sandy soil. very well drained. trunks are 2-4". trunks are wrapped against sun damage. I watered weekly the 1st 2 years and probably should have at least some for 2 more. started adding nitrogen year 3. last 2 winters here were very harsh with late springs. (18) honeycrisp planted spring 2012 in an adjacent area also growing very slowly and those have had nitrogen added. Got a modest number of apples off most 2009 trees last year. A few trees had a lot. Added a crabapple last spring as pollination was also questionable. |
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