I'm no expert on the subject but you might consider high tunnels. I will attach a link where you can download information from Iowa State.

Here is a link that might be useful: High Tunnels

Only bad thing Clark is that I checked with the guys in the inspection department (I work for a City) and I'd have to have it inspected each year before it would be put up and then once completed. To me that's just a tad off putting. There had got to be something easier. :-)

I have a Spice Zee, but it is hardy to zone 6 so it's in the ground. Last year it did dieback, but it was a young plant. It survived though, just above the graft was alive (yeah!) and regrew out. What's ironic I had to grow it out twice. The first time was from topping it knee high. It only threw low branches, so I had to make a new central leader. The new central leader died back. But growth last summer (2nd leaf) was fantastic. I think it is big enough to tolerate this zone now. Last winter we went down to -14. So far this year -4.
I decided instead of making a new central leader to let the 3 branches that came out low be the new scaffold. Here it is
{{gwi:2118928}}

I grow one blueberry in a pot that is hardy to zone 7. Wintering In the garage. So far so good. I have 3 other blueberries in pots but they are hardy here. All in garage. I don't want them to start early as they might get hit by late frosts later, so I don't want to force anything. If I could delay them I would!
I'll put them out in March or April before any dormancy break. . Let them come out of dormancy by themselves.
Most blueberries come out of dormancy when temps are 45F or higher. The temp is the trigger for blueberries.
I'll put them out when it's 30F.
Here they are three of four in the fall.
{{gwi:31769}}

A major problem with pots is watering. So much easier in the ground. Blueberries are treated a lot different than other plants, probably fruitnut could help you more about what to watch out for. Although he has a greenhouse. I would put them in full sun in Iowa. Fertilizing, not sure? Defer to fruitnut if he responds.
Flavor Supreme has trouble setting fruit so hand pollinate. Try Flavor King pollen I guess? It might work? FS will pollinate FK but not sure about vice versa?
I have a 4 in one pluot with FS, FK DD, and FQ. Had no troubles with the weather last year, in ground. Well the fruit buds were killed at -14 but the tree had no dieback. It should fruit this next summer.

Zone pushing works for a few seasons, but usually eventually ends in disappointment. The pots work if you are a home-body, but then something comes up and you are away from home for a while or you have an illness or injury. Well-meaning neighbors or friends tend to kill things. Better to get things that can fend for themselves for a stretch of time, if necessary. Now to follow my own advice!
Northwoodswis

Inspected each year? Wow one nice thing about Kansas we are not big on unnecessary inspections. What is the purpose of the inspection I wonder? Maybe there is something about high tunnels I'm unaware of. I also grow figs outside that come back from the roots every year. They are going on the third year outside.

This post was edited by ClarkinKS on Thu, Jan 15, 15 at 4:58

Drew,

Here are some pics of my Spice Zee (first 1 month after planting, June 2014)

And here is just a few days ago in the garage (ignore the mess and bad lighting as we were in the middle of a garage revamp). Lots of Dupes and trips from the initial summer pruning cuts. Going to have to do some winter/spring pruning before it starts to take off again. I think I should have a lot a good fruiting wood. If anyone can actually tell, or have an idea of what I can expect this coming season I would greatly appreciate it.

Drew/Northwood,

Yeah I guess I'm not really looking at PUSHING what shouldn't really be in my zone. As we all know just because a fruit tree is rated for a certain zone doesn't mean it will set a crop. Thats going to be the hardest part is keeping viable flowering buds alive during the Winter/Spring. This is the reason I want to have some trees in pots, and have some of them be self fertile (Cot-n-Candy, Spice Zee) I figured if I could bring in the tree during the night in the early part of spring to avoid killing frosts this should help. My garage hasn't gotten below freezing yet this whole year and for the most part has been near 35-40 degrees.

As it stands right now here is my inground tree list:
Peaches:
PF-5
PF-9
PF-24
PF-FatLady
Saturn
White Lady
Indian Free
O'Henry

Nectarines:
Mericrest
Independence
Nectacrest
Crimson Gold

Plums:
Burgandy
Methley
Satsuma
Black Ice
Bubblegum
Elephant Heart
Redheart
Shiro

Pluot/Plumcot
Splash
Flavor Supreme
Flavor King
Geo Pride
Dapple Dandy
Flavor Grenade
Flavor Heart
Spring Satin

Others:
Tasty Rich

I know it seems like a lot but from what I can read/see online it doesn't seem like I'll get a reliable crop every year. I look at it with a law of numbers rule. If I only get 5% of the buds to set I'll be set the whole year with probably fruit to give away. If we get harsh winters like last year I may lose a few trees and probably have no crop the whole year.

Clark,

Yep.. Inspected each and every year. If I go above a certain sq/ft, or certain height it has to be inspected. The joys of living in the city. I believe the inspection is $40-60 each time (so $80-120 each year) and to me... thats money down the drain.... I told the wife we need to move outside the city limits.. and somewhere warmer :) She agreed. If we do that I'm just going to build a greenhouse....

Your garage looks neat, you should see mine!
Your trees look good. Make sure to water a little. You don't want them completely dry. I use root pouches not smart pots. They are super cheap, and I like them a lot!
Up to 100 gallon sizes.($19.00). I use 15 ($7.00) and 30 gallon sizes($10.00, 10 for $83.00).

{{gwi:26282}}

Here is a link that might be useful: root pouches

Yep, I bought some 7 gallon for temp storage this year for my Emerald Drop, Flavor Queen, Laroda and the Weeping Santa Rosa we were talking about on DW forums (I'm x2aws on those forums). They were a great find and an awesome deal. I'm going to hold off on buying more until I see what the quality is like compared to my RootMaker and Smart Pots.

The others may hold up longer, but if you break price down by year, root pouches may be a better deal.
OK, cool, welcome here, this is a nice forum, and a lot more active. Did you see the Nadia interspecific hybrid?
Check out on this forum the peach report by scott. Good info on peaches. I wish i had more room, my space is limited and I have interest in other fruits besides what grows on trees. I also like unusual fruits on trees like serviceberries, cornelian cherries, elderberries, etc.

I looked at it. Seemed like a really interesting plum/cherry hybrid. I have been reading the peach report by Scott and have seen his last 2.

You and me both wish we had more space. So many things I would like to do and plant. I'm just hoping to make a screen out of these trees and get good tasting fruit in the process. I've been reading some posts that talk about BYOC in northern states and how it will never work due to disease, cold, etc. I call lack of attention on anyone thats not having success. For the life of me I cannot even begin to understand that why cutting a tree to knee high in zone 5 would cause the tree to be more prone to disease, and/or death and by letting it get 20-30 ft tall and out of my reach would somehow make it more cold hardy and disease resistant. I have also read that by placing the trees in close contact would cause disease to run rampant in a zone 5 climate. If it does then maybe I'm not spraying enough, or not keeping the trees pruned correctly and causing injury. But enough about that......

Any others growing trees in pots that could share some success, pics, tips, tricks, hints, etc????

I know you said you work for the city and talked to the city so right or wrong, that may be what you have to deal with. But I've worked for 8 cities in 2 states and have learned that even Planning and Zoning (building) employees often make mistakes, especially when it comes to something they don't get asked very often (such as high tunnels). I have never heard of inspections being required for temporary, uninhabited structures with no footings. If the inspection is the only thing keeping you from high tunnels, I'd (politely) ask them to show me where in the code it says that. Also, you can go to the Dept head and explain what a high tunnel is and why you think it should require inspection. I'd also ask them, with a wink and a nod, what would happen if you didn't know an inspection was required and just did it. Chances are, especially since you're a fellow city employee (I know...shouldn't matter but it helps, trust me), they will say "well, we don't drive around looking for uninspected high tunnels" and if no one complains they wont do a thing. And if you do get caught, even though I'm sure your city ordinance allows them to fine you, 99% of the time they will just make you get the inspection once they get involved. Anyway, as a city employee you probably know how to navigate and deal with city bureaucracy, but I thought it worth mentioning since it sounds like you wanted high tunnels except for the inspection. Good luck.

I agree Sean, Scott has been doing it for years. It doesn't get as humid here as where he lives. If you look at my Spice Zee you can see the scaffolds are just above the ground. Even the commercial producers for their own reasons are going to smaller trees. Turns out it's not only cheaper, it's more productive. Lower labor costs etc. Some think otherwise, apparently not doing their homework. The cost savings of pedestrian orchards is talked about all over the net.

CityMan,

If I remember from reading your previous posts you are a City Manager for a city, right? I already went to my zoning department and none of them even knew what a HT was. After I showed them they scoured the code book and first told me I should be fine without a permit. I got a call back about 3 hours later and got the place in the City Code where my situation looked like it applied. They weren't 100% sure, but just in case anything popped up they wanted to be more safe than sorry.

I also have some neighbors that are.. well... lets say not the best. We have a very loose HOA rulebook that is usually not followed... But just due to the fact that someone MIGHT bring something up I wanted to do a CYA. Had a buddy with backyard chickens go through the same thing and he eventually lost, even though it doesn't state anywhere that he can't have any.

Yes, I am a City Manager. Your experience is almost exactly what I described by saying they probably weren't familiar with something they hadn't encountered like high tunnels. Sounds like they are doing their own CYA by calling back with a "we think this might apply" answer. Unfortunately, gray areas like this often gives them the benefit of enforcing or not enforcing (requiring permit or not) depending on how the winds are blowing (who is complaining, what the dept head/city manager/mayor wants done, etc. If you push them, they are more likely to err on the side of caution and require inspections. This is why I'd suggest more than ever that you (politely) talk to someone higher up, make your case for why a temporary, uninhabited, structure with no footings or electrical wiring should require an inspection. If it does, why wouldn't a plastic childrens playhouse require one? Or a tent put up for a party? or....you can come up with better examples.
I think they are wrong and I think if they read the code and still aren't 100% sure if it applies or not then it doesn't. But like I said....they may just say its required because it covers their A. If so, you could consider going before the zoning appeals board (or whatever yours is called) and would have a good chance at having them grant you a variance.
The backyard chicken situation is unbelievably common- and frustrating. Honestly, I once had someone come to my office to complain about "the guy who lets his chickens roam his whole property". I was the guy! :)
I've babbled too much in recent posts and may be getting too far off topic, but free to email me anytime and I'll be glad to try and help any way I can.

Sean I can see why you would head for the country and not look back. Great looking tree! It reminds me of flat wonderful because of the foliage and growth habit.

I'm a little surprised I haven't heard anything from fruitnut or franktank... :(

Thanks Clark for the kind words. Looking at it most of the wood will probably be going.. restructure the tree, etc. Would you or anyone else have any good ideas on what to leave, what to get rid of, etc... I'm thinking about waiting to closer to spring to see exactly what I'm working with. I have had some fruit trees in the past before I knew exactly what I was doing and they got out of control. They were in poor soil, trees arrived about 6-7 feet tall and about 1 inch in diameter, etc. They hardly even grew, and have never flowered. This will be my first time with a tree with any flowers. I'm hoping since its self fertile it will set fruit.

CityMan, I will do. I do enjoy working for the government more than I do the private sector. I have got to know a lot of people and have got a ton of information regarding just about anything I can think of.

Anyone listening on here ever use organic fertilizers like kelp meal, bat guano, azomite, or humic acid? I'll try to find some pictures I took last season and you all tell me what you think. I don't know if it's my soil mix, the fertilizer, or both but based off of past years I think they grew pretty good.

(Going to look for for pictures)

Here is the original plantings from April 28th. All sticks about 20-30 inches tall either very little, out no branching.

And here is about 2 months later ( August 18). And yes, I built those retaining wall circle structures myself. :-)

Wow, I like the setup a lot, good job!

Thanks Drew. Each circle is about 8 foot across. The top intersects the middle, and the middle the bottom. The land at the top is flatter do the top circle is just about equal with the amount of blocks showing. The middle is isn't terrible, but the bottom one is smart flush at the top ( 1 block row above ground) and about 3-3.5 feet above at the bottom. Took me a little while since it was all done by myself and done by hand. To make sure I didn't have any shifting about 3 rows are buried all around.

The soil I used is a mix of top soil, Scott's tree and shrub soil (more like an amendment) and compost/manure. The trees really took off about 3 weeks after I added the Azomite, bat guano, and kelp meal... with a little sprinkling of blood meal. The PF-9 was the thickest of them all at about 3/4 in diameter. Branching didn't start until about 3 feet above the ground. I was lucky to get a bud to break about an inch above the graft union. After the end of the season our ended up about 1/2 in diameter and 5.5-6 feet tall. This season I'll cut the original leader and regrow this one.

I'm hoping the trees will fill out the space this year and by the middle of next season I'll be dealing with mature sized trees. I'll be keeping them all pruned to about 6ft to make for easy harvesting.

My set up of rasied beds is for blueberries, brambles, and strawberries. I also have beds I use for peppers, garlic/onions, and melons/watermelons. I rotate yearly.
Here are my beds at first. I have added more.
{{gwi:125614}}

Here's what they looked like this summer. Photo from other side this time
{{gwi:48157}}

My trees are in ground
I also have a bed for pole beans. By the end of the summer all lines were full and production was amazing.
{{gwi:2118929}}

I'm going to fix wire, it drooped a lot, but I didn't want to fix when plants were on it, they would have been pulled out of the ground. This year garlic and peppers will be grown there, and beans will be grown elsewhere.

Wow Sean, that is just beautiful. Artistic, aesthetically appealing, and shows good craftsmanship. Very impressive. About how big are the rock circles? (diameter). Again, that's a very innovative and unique landscape. Nice going.

The problem with pruning is no one ever agrees. Harvestman has a good guide he is usually willing to share. So the question becomes central leader or open center? Here are a couple of examples http://extension.psu.edu/plants/gardening/fphg/pome/pruning/pruning-and-training-to-a-central-leader or http://extension.psu.edu/plants/gardening/fphg/stone/open-center. Some people try to get the branches lateral by some method early on to get fruit faster http://byf.unl.edu/Fruittreeprune2

Here is a link that might be useful: Open center Pruning

I think pruning depends on your goal, if commercial or backyard, what kind of fruit. All three variables matter as to what to do. Do you want large production or constant fruit throughout the growing season? I think Sean really nailed it about size. He is right on. I don't need 300 peaches all at once, or even 300 peaches all season.
Even backyard growers have vastly different goals. So pruning should fit your goals, and that means many methods are viable and appropriate depending on what you hope to achieve.

CityMan,

Thanks!!! I had a lot of neighbors, and a few people that live in the subdivision over comment as they walk by. At first they were very curious as to what I was trying to do. Once they saw the vision (towards the end of the build) they started to appreciate it more and more. You wouldn't believe the number of people that used to just say hi as they walked by now actually stop and talk to me for 10-15 min about the end goal, type of trees, fertilizer practices, etc. It was quite amazing. I spent the better part of the summer of 2013 doing this job. Many people wanted to know what landscaping company I worked for. When they found out I actually work in IT for the city they were quite amazed.

Now to answer your question each circle is 8ft in diameter. Each one is also level from front to back. I have approx. 1 block+cap showing on all the high spots. In areas like towards the bottom of the hill (the low spots) that meant a lot of fill. As I stated the low side is about 3-3.5 feet tall, so minus the 1st block and cap thats about 3ish feet worth of fill. In areas where I just have one block showing (the high spots) what I did was dig down about 12-14 inches, remove and replace that soil with my topsoil+Scott's+Compost/Manure blend. It ended up being all mixed by hand layer after layer.

People asked why i didn't just get a truck full of top soil delivered. The reason was I haven't had good luck around here with quality soil. And usually after a year or 2 the soil becomes compacted and if not watered constantly turns very hydrophobic. This mix can be dug by hand, and when i say hand, I can take my hand and start digging with just a little effort, or easily dug out with a shovel. When I was first working I had 2 nectarines planted towards the bottom of the hill inside the first circle. I went to transplant them at the beginning of the 2014 season and let me tell you this..... the roots were EVERYWHERE!!! Huge roots and the rootball had easily tripled if not quadrupled in size. In comparison to my Splash Pluot planted at the same time about 8 feet over that I had to move, the Splash was easily dug out by spading around the mulch ring and just lifting out. It hadn't even doubled in root size and both plants started out the same diameter and were cared for the same (minus the soil difference). To me the soil had to be the big difference. I understand that usually members of the peach family grow quicker, but to see that much difference is mind blowing. Now I do have one nectarine to dig up and replace as the top never leafed out and only the rootstock sent up shoots so it will be interesting to see the size of roots on that thing!! :)

If you have any questions let me know, and I'm sorry for providing more information than requested if it wasn't wanted. I figured I'd throw it out there for those maybe wanting to know.

Drew,

Your backyard is something I want to strive for with my plantings. I want a place for everything to go and not just tossed here or there. I'm not the most organized individual (you should see my desk at work) but when it comes to this I want everything in its place. My goal for this next summer is beds for my plums and pluots. Right now there are in my nursery row about 18 inches apart and about 1-1.5 feet between the 2 rows. I have each in a RootMaker Knit InGround bag to make for easy removal. Its not the ideal setup for long term, but I figured for short term storage it would do. I was hoping to have these planters done by this year but it never happened as life got in the way. So what I listed above (minus the peaches/nectarines) will be moved to those Root Pouches we talked about and hopefully survive the summer.

Clark,
From what I have read, and what one can do to ripen the fruit from the store, I believe that every tree wants something different. To me for stone fruit an open center makes the most sense. Sunlight to help ripen the fruit and dry up dew to prevent rot, and more open to help with wind to prevent a stagnant situation. I look at store bought peaches. If they are hard when bought, place them in a window and watch as they soften and become sweeter. Try that with an apple and it doesn't get any better, just more and more rotten. Thats why i think apples and pears do better in a central leader case. Just my opinion not backed up by any science, just observations.

I was really struck by your comments about your neighbors all becoming more open and sociable when they came by and saw your orchard project (stonework, trees, etc.) While my little orchard is no where close to being as elaborate and unique as yours, I've had exactly the same experience and have really enjoyed it. Part of my orchard is right by the road, and just like you, neighbors who have never said more than hello now stop to ask what I'm growing, how I combat bugs, whether I'm going to sell any, and almost all want to share a story about a wonderful fruit tree they had at their house or a relative's house growing up and how incredible the fruit was and how they've always wished they could grow fruit like that. These roadside chats have been one of many things I've enjoyed since starting my small orchard, and I can't wait until I have enough fruit that I can share some with my new neighbor friends!
BTW....I hate to keep going back to the City thing we both have in common, but next time you need some top soil you ought to be able to talk to the water, sewer, and/or street departments and tell them you'd love to get some high quality top soil next time they have a project on your side of town, they will probably be happy to give it to you rather than have to drive across town somewhere to dump. And some of it-especially what they get from cleaning/scraping ditches-is the best topsoil money can buy! Just a thought for next time you are fixing a computer in one of those departments (I think you said you are an IT guy?).

Lol. Yep... IT. you wouldn't believe the number of departments we work with. For the Parks department let's say, their customers are the public and rarely have to interact with anyone else outside their department. For me being in IT my customers are everyone inside the city. I know people from each and every department and usually it's not the guys on the bottom of the food chain.

Yep you wouldn't believe the number of people that stop and talk about the peaches they had as a kid, or the trees one of their friends had and how incredible the fruit was, etc.

If you don't mind me asking what kind of trees tickle your fancy? As you can tell for me it's stone fruit, and less pome fruit. Maybe it's because I've never had a perfectly ripe apple, or maybe the taste just doesn't do it for me.

I, too, would list stone fruits as my favorite. Specifically, peaches are far and away my favorite and it was the taste of a tree ripened, local peach that was the genesis of my fruit growing odyssey. Don't get me wrong, if you've seen my profile and list of trees you know I love eating and growing almost all fruits and grow almost everything I can. I grow apples and I do enjoy cooking with them and eating them, but for me the difference in a grocery store apple and a home grown one isn't nearly as dramatic as that of a store peach vs home grown. Also, at risk of having the apple aficionados here ostracize me forever, my taste buds aren't sophisticated enough to discern a huge difference in apple varieties. But please, apple lovers, forgive my blasphemy and probable ignorance and understand that my apple tasting experience is very limited and comes mostly from trying different varieties from the GROCERY STORE. I'm pretty sure that is a poor basis for making any decision regarding most any fruit.

Sean that makes since on stone fruit pruning. We leave a tree open here for a few other reasons which is to apply sprays better to all foliage and give them more air as mentioned above to prevent rot. Kansas gets 100 degrees or hotter every summer so fruit ripening here is never an issue. Our springs and falls are wet and than can make some big problems for me.

Drew,

Got my order of Root Pouches in this afternoon. Nice quality for how little they cost. Took my Flavor Queen that I had "heeled in" a 5 gallon bucket of sawdust/wood chips/etc and potted it up for temp storage this year. If these bags/pouches hold up this year I may have to think about buying some 15-20 gallon to replace the Smart Pots when the time comes for my full time potted trees.

Sean, let's see some more images of those trees as they start to bloom! I'd love to see how they're doing.